Welcome to Black Horizons.

I'm your host, Chris Moore.

Tonight we're going to spend this half hour talking about Martin Luther King Jr.

With some people who met him and whose lives he touched.

Join me as we celebrate and honor in his memory.

Here tonight are three individuals whose names and face may be familiar to many of you.

Reverend LeRoy Patrick, the former pastor of Bethesda Church in Homewood, who met the young Doctor King at seminary.

Doctor Delphina Briscoe, the retired principal of the Melyons Middle School who heard Doctor King speak at Ebenezer Baptist Church.

She was a very young child then.

And last but not least, Doctor Reverend J. Van Alfred Winsett said Pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church, where Doctor King gave many of his speeche when he was here in Pittsburgh.

Welcome to the program, all of you.

Now, many people don't know.

They celebrate Doctor King's birthday this month, and they hear that I have a dream speech.

But Doctor Briscoe was kind enough to bring on an album titled The Great March to Freedom.

We have a section of that speech because Doctor King actually delivered that speech several times, and he delivered it as earl as 1963, in Detroit, Michigan.

Let's let's listen to that and look at some of the photos from this album.

And so I go back to the South, not in despair.

I go back to the South, not with a feeling that we are caught in a dark dungeon that will never lead to a way out.

I go back believing that the new day is coming.

And so this afternoon, I have a dream.

It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day, right down in Georgia and Mississippi and Alabama, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to live together as brothers.

I have a dream this afternoon that one day.

One day, little white children and little Negro children will be able to join hands as brothers and sisters.

I have a dream.

This afternoon that one day.

One day, me will no longer burn down houses in the Church of God simpl because people want to be free.

I have a dream this afternoon and you can hear some obvious differences.

As he warmed up the crowd in Detroit and in the speech that he finally gave in Washington, D.C.. Doctor Briscoe, as a young young member of Ebenezer Baptist Church, you heard Doctor Kin addressed the crowd there once.

Yes, I did.

Chris, it was so invigorating.

I remember sitting in the balcony and we weren't allowed as youngsters to sit at a balcony.

As mom said, thing happen to much of the balcony.

You sit on the main floor.

And so we were on the first row in the balcony, and this young man stepped out and as I said, I was just going into high school when Doctor King came, to the Ebenezer Baptist Church church standing room only I could just remember as if it happened day before yesterday.

And of course, when he started to speak, I was just in awe.

I had never heard anyone speak like Doctor King, and so he affected my life all of my life to this very day.

And I have lived by a lot of his principles.

I've taught by a lot of his principles.

I've had ministry, by a lo of his principles, and continue to live by because truly, he was a man of God.

He incorporated not only theology, but the social climate of the day.

And that, to me, i so important, in today's life.

Reverend Patrick, I want to turn to you because you also met him.

But you were, pastoring a church, in near Philadelphia and going to, seminary to take some extra classe when he was a young seminarian.

Is that right?

Yes.

He was entering the seminary in Chester, Pennsylvania, in that time, crosier was in Chester.

Since then, it has merged as Rochester and Rochester.

New York has moved from Chester.

But that was way back in 1942 43.

Long time ago, I had gone to Chester, to be the pastor of the Thomas and Thomas Presbyterian Church there.

And I went over to fill in some gaps in my seminary training.

You know how it is.

You come out and you feel like you got to get some more training and, so I went over there to do some work.

There were maybe a half dozen African-Americans on the campus, and one of them was, Martin Luther King.

The other was Sam Proctor.

My might know Sam Proctor.

Yes, sir.

They were, Martin Luther King and, was a very serious young man.

Seemed to be, knowing what he wanted to do.

But, upon proving himself.

No, he, maybe he spoke with more respect to me because I was considerably older than he, you know, you know, young men from the South tend to respect his elders, you understand?

But, that was way back then.

And, so, I came to, to admire the serious student, to see, I confess, I didn't see the icon he was going to become.

I didn't see that in him.

No, I don't want to pretend I saw more than it was there.

But I saw a young man who for the first time was studying in a seminary.

White seminary as a he' come out of, out of the South, where he'd been back schools all his life and here and I, you know you got to prove, you know, all you have to prove tha you're as good as anybody else.

I've read and tell of branch's book, parting the the waters, about Doctor King that his father did not want him to go closer to the white seminary.

He thought he'd be his whole future was there, in the South, in the black church.

And he didn't see the need for further education.

You know anything about that?

No.

I know that there was some question abou whether he should attend or not.

But I think that he had a sort of mind of his own.

And he felt they need a new from what I conversation I had with him, it seems that if he had, he had needed a new kind of experience and crosier was a new kind of experience.

Now because ther of courses were quite rigorous.

So you had to know what you were doing.

And, is that part of what helped him, you think, develo into such an eloquent speaker?

Well, I don't think it was so much, eloquence as a speaker, because I don't think you had that much time to speak on that campus.

They spend more time in the librar in preparing all those classes.

But I think it gave him the background while Richard could build when he went up to Boston, to the, bars by school religion, which is part of the Methodis church there by the university.

The there began has, has really, speaking, eloquence.

All right.

Doctor J. Van Alfred, when said, that it's good to have you back here.

You knew doctor King also, not necessarily as the pastor of Ebenezer when Doctor King came here, to speak.

Because you only came in 76.

But you know him from living in Louisville, Kentucky.

You knew his brother, right?

I knew his brother.

I knew his mother.

I knew his father.

Martin Luther Kin was a member of our convention, and we had a lot of interactions with Doctor King because of my relationship with his brother, A.D.

Williams.

King.

Was this a National Baptist Convention?

National Baptis Convention, USA, incorporated.

And, Doctor Kin was a member of our convention, his brother, his mother, his father.

So we got to know him quite well, but I got to know him, quite well because of m relationship with his brother.

His brother pastored Zion Baptist in Louisville.

So, we had become very close.

Marti many times would come to believe he'll just to rest and relax.

So we'd all go down to 80s house to, fellowship one with the other.

And, he was a fun loving person, but he was a very serious minded person.

I'm not sure that even in his young life, that he could envision that he would ever, rise to the heights that he did.

But, as you know, he has left for us a legacy that, we all can be proud of, doctor ones that.

Do you think that someho the sharp edges of Doctor King have been sort of, sheared off or dulled in some ways?

Prior to his death, he had made a speech at the Riverside Church in New York, where he really condemned the Vietnam War.

He talked about a nation being spiritually bankrupt that spent more money on defense and military than it did on programs of social uplift.

Do you thin that sometimes we just remember I have a dream, and we're probably guilty of it, too, having playe part of that speech here today, what many people who are very critical of him when he, had the audacity to talk about the war and some of the social issues that we are faced with.

But I think that no when we look back in hindsight, I think that he was, a man even before his time, many people were afraid to speak out against such, that we were going to at that particular time, but not him.

There seems to have been something within him that was moving him forward to attack many of the social problems that we had here in America.

And, even today, as we look back, we can see that that he was a person who was able to look way down the road when many people were just looking just as far as th those old men will have dreams, and young men will have visions that that's that's the Bible.

And sometimes, I guess when you have that kind of vision, you'r a little bit ahead of the crowd and they don't see where you come from.

I can remember when he spoke out against the war on Vietnam.

My father, and several of his friends were saying what a civil rights movement must be dead.

Why is he speaking out against the war?

A lot of people didn' understand where he was going.

You think, Doctor Briscoe?

I think not as a starter once it has said he was before his time.

And as I listen to, a lot of information, especially the, album that you played at the beginning, I listened to those speeches and said, gee, this was an old man in a young man's body.

And then too, his books are so, so alive, and they have so much to offer everybody, no matter what age you are.

Now understand?

You have a book on your lap.

What's the title of it's called Strength to Love, and I understand it, and I understand this is your second edition of it.

You you actually wore the cover off the other one.

It was so dog eared and you used it often, when you were teaching, when you were a principal and an administrator.

How did it help you get through the day?

And can you read us one of your favorite parts?

It talks about a tough mind and a tender heart.

I like to think that as a leader, I had those characteristics of being tough minded but yet soft hearted enough or tender hearted enough to understand the children and the staff and those persons that I had to work with.

The one passion that I really, love.

Tough mindedness without tender heartedness, is cold and detached, leaving one's life in a perpetual winter devoid of warmth and sprin and the gentle heat of summer.

It's just seems that his words always would flow from one concept to another concept.

And then he went on to talk about God lies in the fact that he is both tough minded and tender hearted.

He has the qualities both of austerity and gentleness, and I am so thankful that we worship a God who is both tough minded and tender hearted.

And that's one of my favorite chapters, along with Shattered Dreams.

And I'll tell you why Shattere Dreams is so close to my heart.

Also, why?

Well, you said that we would talk a little bit later about, our present status at Ebeneze for people who may be watching.

And dont know.

I, well, because our church did.

Burn March 13th, 2004.

As we all stood there shivering and tears and heartbroken.

And yet I look at the shattered dreams.

But shattered dreams do come true.

And I'm sure the doctor wants it.

We'll talk a little bit about the shattered dreams.

It's going to come true, all right.

And that' why it's so close to my heart.

Right.

We'll talk about that in just a second.

Reverend Patrick, when you moved here in the early 1950s, you became a civil rights leader, in your own right.

And I can remember you telling me a story about going to the Highland Park, pool.

I wish you would relate that to our audience right now, because I admire you so much.

I have to say it publicly.

You one of my heroes out there, and I admire you so much for what you did in the movement here when you came to Pittsburgh.

Can you tell us about that?

Well, Pittsburgh has its own brand over a poor side, and part of that was that black African African-Americans were not to swim in Highland Park pool.

That was not our pool.

Our pool was on Washingto Boulevard somewhere where they, a fire department has its place now, you know, that area over there?

There was no pool there.

It's called Aqua.

Well, and that's where we were supposed to go on a hot summer day.

And when you pass there, we were filled with, youngsters jumping in out of that water.

However, I didn't come here to change things.

I was sort of catapulted into that about, like Doctor King in Montgomery.

He was catapulted into that, I think, in a way, yes.

Yeah.

My young people at the churc where I've been associated with, white Group, the group, decided that it would have a swim in at the Highland Park pool on a on a Saturday morning.

My young people came to me and said, you know, LeRoy Patric can't swim in all the park pool.

And I said, there are some Philadelphia.

I know where you are.

Well why not?

Well, we know, we know.

All right.

Oh, we'll swim there.

We'll swim there.

Oh, come on now that I inquired, we weren't supposed to swim across Blackpool, so I went to the City Hall.

I say I didn't, I was not seeking water.

I'd be on the sand.

I went to the city hall and I spoke to a fellow named Chris Morris, who was the chairman of the Civic Unity Council of that day, precursor to the FPC, a precursor to the CH Commission on Human Relations.

And I said, Chris we're going to a swimming pool, my young people and I, and we're going to need as many policemen as you think.

We need to keep us from being beaten.

Well, he thought it was not a good idea.

I said, what, are we going to swim now?

I'm coming to you because you are.

You are the chairman of the executive of the Christian Community Council.

Well, that was that was well I suppose about 7 or 8 before.

And there was a meeting with the director of city Parks and Recreation.

We had a meeting and another meeting and the, YMCA, which was then, and East Liberty.

They were trying to say it was not a good idea.

I said, well, you know, I said, idea.

Are we going to be there on Saturday morning?

Saturday morning came.

Well, not really, said 1:00.

We had said we'd meet.

I was there at 1:00.

We said meet me at the Rhododendron grove.

If you know, Highland Park or the grove is about a block away from the pool, tha cell block, about one and a half And I went to the pool itself.

1:00 came and there were about 500 policemen around that pool every three feet.

There was a blue shirt, blu shirt, blue shirt, blue shirt.

Thank the Lord.

Yeah.

1:30 K my kids hadn't shown up and they don't look ten at that in his white shirt.

What are your people?

Well, I said, oh, why?

I, I think the problem was a misunderstanding.

Maybe the the hardware.

You got to meet at the pool or, right.

They may be still at the Grove, so I'll go and see if they're still there.

I went to another grove, and there were a dozen young people there, about a half dozen girls and a half dozen boys.

Well, I said come on, let's go on the pool.

The girl said, I don't like to swim.

The boy said, well, I don't swim, trunks.

So then bring my trunks.

One boy all of them, I said, well, said Rob, I buy trunks, I have an extra pair.

Well, I said come on, give me an extra pair.

And I grabbed him and I grabbed one next to him.

I said, were going to the pool.

We started toward the pool and the closer we got to the pool the hard ones kept on walking.

I dropped arms, what do you see?

I added one they I kept oh no.

Oh, like, oh, I gotta get back.

You can't get away from me now.

Right?

I laugh, I go now, but that day we got through the pool, we got into the dressing room and a policeman came in and, we went through the shower.

We jumped on the water, and every white person in the pool jumped out of the water.

Now, Highland Park has a really big pool.

Too big for three people.

And I'm not a swimmer.

I go and when I go to a pool, I go to the shallow end where I can stand up because I never had swimming lessons.

So I just self-taught.

So I don't go to the water.

These young men could really swim and they'd go up on the high diving board to.

Jump off the board.

And I was admired them so much.

Now I was saying one was a very dark fell and one was sort of light fella, although so happy to see a dark fella because I said, here it is present.

It was already here but you found that you couldn't tell.

They'll rather just like you did.

So what are some of the people do who they splas all the people around the pool They wer just around.

Grabbing a water, hurling epithets at us.

Water, nigger.

Water.

Blackwater.

Well, are we pretending not to hear that?

And I didn't realize that would, and, we kept on swimming.

Finally, after about oh, I suppose about 25 minutes, my young people came and said to me Patrick, can we go now?

No, we can't go.

So I had no reason.

I got, I got we got to go.

Yet I felt we had to stay a little bit longer.

To make a statement.

Just say that all the police were there with a white star gatherin around the fence looking at us.

We had to stay a little bit longer.

I think that that's that's reminiscent of the Montgomery Bus boycot and what you were trying to do.

I can't believe the time was going so fast.

Reverend Van Alfred Winsett I have to ask you about Ebenezer and the rebuilding and what's going on.

Would you could you update the general public on what's happening?

Because we can always remember that horrible, Saturday morning, I could see the smoke from my house, and I said, wow, something's on fire.

And I turn the TV on.

And I was amazed to see the flames leapin through the roof of your church.

I was amazed to see it, and was right there when it started.

The rebuilding is coming along very well.

I think, you know, when we burned down, we are starting from scratch, which means that, even the new wing had to go in.

Even the new wing had to go.

We were starting from scratch.

Which means that you have all the city permits and and all the zoning permits and so forth that you have to go through in order that you can, have somebody come in and start laying blocks.

So what we've been doing is going to all of the processes and making sure that every, I was dotted every T was cross, and, the city is making double.

Sure, because the fac that we had such a great, loss and they want to make sure that, we follow all of the, directions that they're giving.

That's what we, we plan to do, expect to have the facility rebuilt.

And I know you've dedicated some something to the memory of those firefighter who lost their lives here.

Yes.

We would hope that, the end part of 200 would find us in the building.

If all goes well, we are still mindful of the firefighters who lost their lives.

I'm in contact with th families, with the widows and, my heart still goes out to them because I don't think that, that they will ever get over that tragedy that happened, with the time that we have remaining.

I'd like to start with you and it's not much, Doctor King.

His memory, rebuilding the church.

What does it all mean to you now?

Well, as Doctor King was faced with, What a what a great, When he was faced with something as great as trying to change the complexion of America or trying to change th direction of of human society, I find myself, perhaps walking in waters that have been that I've never walked in before.

It's very similar, doctor Briscoe, in you.

Well, I look at Doctor King and John Kennedy is one of the same.

John Kennedy two was an idol of mine, and I still read his works and what they believe in for the people of America, of all colors and shattere dreams, as I said, do come true and as a member, all my life I've ever been, these are I know tha that shattered dream come true.

Last word to you, Reverend Patrick.

We only have a few seconds.

Well, I have a slightly different take on, Martin Luthe King Junior and his philosophy.

I think one has to restrain evil in this world and I don't think you can do it.

And usually his philosophy.

No, he was effective, you understand?

Because he is.

And the Anglo-Saxon, judicial system, it was not a matter of fact that no Russian system of the German system, of the of that of a little a so I'v always had a slightly different take on that.

One must restrain evil.

And you sometimes you have to use method that are evil, that love abhors.

That's a different take on hate.

It certainly is, Doctor Patrick.

We'll end it there.

I thank all three of yo for being here as we remember, Doctor Martin Luther King we appreciate thank thank you.

Here's a sneak peek at an African American boxing legen that has been hidden for years.

He was a rebel, a lover.

Champion, a fugitive a legend and forgotten.

Until now.

PBS and Ken Burns tell the story of the greatest boxer you never knew.

Unforgivable blackness The Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson premieres Monday, January 17th at nine only on PBS.

You don't want to miss this interesting story about boxing legend Jack Johnson.

Tune in on January 17th at 9 p.m.

to lear more about this interesting man.

Now here's a look at what's happening that you may be interested in checking out on our community calendar.

We call On the horizon.

If you have an event that you'd like folks to know about, send it to On the Horizon.

4802 Fifth Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15213 ATS Chester Engineers.

We are proud of our longstanding commitment to developing engineers and future leaders through scholarships with Carnegie Mellon Pitt and Lincoln University' partnerships with historically black colleges and universities, mentoring internships, we create a brighter future and bring greater diversity to our field.

We invest in our communities.

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That'll do it fo this episode of Black Horizons.

Be sure to join us next week and every Friday and Sunday right here on WQED TV 1 for an interesting time of talk.

I'm Chris Moore and for all of us here.

Thank you.

Provided by the history Store, Craig Street in Oakland and Chris Moore's wardrobe provided by Larrimors of Pittsburgh.