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- This is One-On-One.

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(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato with my colleague, Jacqui Tricarico.

Today, we are looking at Muhammad Ali through the eyes of Jonathan Eig who wrote that book over my shoulder, New York Times bestseller, "Ali."

All about Muhammad Ali.

Jacqui, what did you take from this, because we already taped this interview with Eig earlier today.

What was your biggest takeaway?

A and B?

Tell everyone about the New Jersey connection with Muhammad Ali.

- Your interview with Jonathan Eig really takes a look at Ali, just not his boxing career, which is so significant in and of itself, but really his life and his legacy that he left behind and the twists and turns that his life took along the way.

So we really get to learn more about Ali, the person outside of the boxer, during your interview with Jonathan.

But one thing that we didn't get too deep into is Muhammad Ali's connection to New Jersey.

He did live here in Cherry Hill from 1971 to 1973.

He said during his time here in the suburbs of New Jersey, he said, I got to like the place and the serenity of it, being away from the people.

So he definitely liked his time here.

And during that time too, in Cherry Hill, there were a couple of really cool, happening jazz clubs and different clubs that were in that part of town.

- He liked to enjoy himself, Jacqui.

- Right.

Yeah, Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr., other people that visited these clubs that Muhammad Ali liked to visit.

So he definitely had his fun here in New Jersey.

- And the other side of that, going from his interest in, love of entertainment to the other really significant part of Ali giving up three and a half years of his career and his prime to stand up against the Vietnam War and refused the draft in the United States.

- And Jonathan Eig talks about that part, says, you know, he gave up three years, but he was willing to give up his entire career to stand up for- - Sure.

- what he believed in.

So I found that to be interesting that Jonathan shares with us.

And also, to connect it back to other people here in New Jersey and somebody else that we do a Remember Them on is Toni Morrison.

She actually was the editor for Ali's book called "The Greatest: My Own Story," and worked with him in that regard, and that's another resource our viewers can pick up to learn more about Muhammad Ali.

- Yeah, Ali stood up, was courageous, gave up a big part of his career, gave up millions of dollars.

Complex man, an iconic, important figure in American and world history through the eyes of Jonathan Eig.

Let's take a look, and respect and honor the greatest of all time, Muhammad Ali.

- We are honored to once again be joined by Jonathan Eig, who is the author of Ali: A Life.

Jonathan, good to see you.

- You too, Steve.

- And we had you talking about your book King, about the great Dr. Martin Luther King.

Muhammad Ali, we're taping in 2024.

Why is Muhammad Ali still so important, an American icon never to be forgotten, please.

- Well maybe, you know, the most important and most famous athlete of the 20th century, but so much more than that.

You know, Muhammad Ali was born Cassius Clay in Louisville.

So he grew up in the segregated South, and he used his power as an athlete to challenge notions of White supremacy, to challenge segregation and to stand up to the US government in refusing to fight in Vietnam.

That's what really made him special.

You know, when he won the Heavyweight Championship, he said, you know, "I don't have to be what you want me to be.

I can choose my own name.

I can choose my own religion.

I'm gonna fight for what I believe in, get used to it."

And that was shocking for Americans, for White Americans at that time.

And it made a big difference.

It's still making a big difference.

- Jonathan, Ali wins the Heavyweight Championship fighting against Sonny Liston.

Describe Sonny Liston as we show some shots of Sonny Liston.

I wanna go back and talk about the Olympics in 1960 in just a minute.

But fast forward to '65 when he wins the championship.

It's in Miami, right?

- Yeah, '64 in Miami.

- '64 in Miami.

Describe who Sonny Liston was and what he was perceived to be, and why it was so significant how Muhammad Ali, then Cassius Clay, beat him.

- Sonny Liston was considered undefeatable.

He was considered kind of an ogre, this menacing, angry, convicted criminal.

Americans were desperate to have a another champion.

You know, Sonny Liston was despised, but he was fearsome.

He was considered, you know, just this boxing machine who knocked opponents out, you know, in a matter of seconds.

But in some ways, Americans couldn't decide who they hated more, Ali, who was still Cassius Clay at that point, or Sonny Liston, because they were both not exactly, you know, the champion that White America at least wanted to see because Ali was full of all this braggadocio.

He was cocky and arrogant and unsportsmanlike.

But it didn't really matter because most people thought he had no chance of beating Sonny Liston, that he was gonna get killed.

The only question was, you know, how many rounds he would live.

Not whether he would survive, you know, not whether he would lose, but how badly he would lose.

- But Jonathan, let's talk about this.

When Muhammad Ali beats Sonny Liston, there's a lot going on with the Nation of Islam.

When does Cassius Clay, soon to be Muhammad Ali, connect with the Nation of Islam?

And was it in fact, through Malcolm X?

- Ali learned about the Nation of Islam while he was still in high school, and he began to find it interesting.

He liked the fact that they talked about independence.

That they weren't counting on White people to give them rights, that they were gonna take their own rights.

They were gonna make their own businesses, make their own schools, eventually make their own country.

And he heard about it from Elijah Muhammad, who was the leader of the Nation of Islam.

But then when he began to hear Malcolm X preaching on it, it got even more exciting because Malcolm X was this younger, more fiery minister, and Ali developed a real friendship with him, almost like a brotherhood really.

So by the time he becomes champion, he's now steeped enough in the culture of the Nation of Islam that he's ready to join and ready to tell the world after he wins the championship, that this is his new identity, his new group, his new sense of belonging.

- Hmm.

Describe the reaction to Cassius Clay becoming Muhammad Ali, when he announced Muhammad Ali.

And if I'm not mistaken, Elijah Muhammad, the head of the Nation of Islam, gave him that name.

When he says, I'm Muhammad Ali, what's the reaction of most of America, disproportionately White America?

- Most Americans, when they heard that Ali was becoming a member of the Nation of Islam and was taking this new name, Muhammad Ali, were deeply confused and angry.

They felt like it was a betrayal of his American birth, of his patriotism.

They thought he was somehow criticizing America.

And they didn't know much about Islam at that time, and they certainly didn't know much about the Nation of Islam.

But what they did know was that they considered it a cult and a hate group.

The FBI had described it and the media was really describing it as a terrorist organization because they threatened to destroy all White people.

That the White people were devils.

And that the only way to achieve justice on Earth was for Black people to have their own nation.

That seemed threatening, but it also seemed kooky.

And you also have to remember, these are mostly sports writers who are covering it and they've never covered an issue like anything like this.

- And they were White.

And they're all White.

- All.

- Yeah, absolutely, all of them.

- Let me ask you, there's a lot of video and we'll show a picture of Ali with Howard Cosell.

Was Cosell different in any way than most other White media figures at the time, given his relationship with Ali appeared from a public perspective to be very close?

Did he see it differently?

- Cosell was different and a little bit better than most of the reporters covering Ali.

In part because he was Jewish, he was more open to religious minorities, I think.

And he changed his name too, so he didn't think it was any big deal that Ali wanted to change his name.

So he was one of the few reporters that really stood up for Ali, defended him and gave him a chance to be heard.

- Jonathan, what's fascinating is that there's a book, I think it's called Blood Brothers.

It's a book about Ali and Malcolm X.

What begins to happen for Muhammad Ali as the Nation of Islam and Malcolm X start to separate as Malcolm X becomes very public in his criticism of Elijah Muhammad, the head of the Nation of Islam, specifically for having sexual relations with teenage girls who worked for him, impregnating teenage girls, and arguing Malcolm X would argue that such behavior was totally inconsistent with what the nation was supposed to be all about.

That being said, the break between Ali and Malcolm X, talk about it, it's significant.

- It's a very important moment in Ali's life.

You know, he loves Malcolm X.

- Blood brothers.

- Yeah, blood brothers.

But he loves and fears Elijah Muhammad, and he has to make a difficult choice when Malcolm breaks from the Nation of Islam and complains that Elijah Muhammad has been having children with his secretaries, and then he can no longer be a part of the Nation of Islam.

Ali has to choose, does he go with his brother or does he go with this more of a father figure?

And he chooses Elijah Muhammad.

He turns his back on Malcolm X.

In fact, when asked about Malcolm X leaving, he says he doesn't care if Malcolm dies.

And I think he's gotta know that there's a real risk that Malcolm is gonna die.

There have already been assassination attempts.

So a lot of people felt like Ali perhaps could have saved Malcolm's life if he'd stood up for him, if he'd at least, you know, spoke it out and insisted that Malcolm should be made safe.

But Ali didn't do that.

In fact, Ali kind of warned that if you talk back against the messenger, as everyone called him, Elijah Muhammad, if you speak out against the messenger, you get what you came for.

You're gonna get in trouble.

- In 1965, in the Audubon Ballroom, in New York City, Malcolm X is in fact assassinated.

Check out our programming on Malcolm X, fast forward, Ali is his great champion in the sixties, and he starts to become more outspoken.

Let's talk about Muhammad Ali, the Vietnam War, how he handled being drafted by the American government and those three and a half years that are so historically significant that he lost for standing up for what he believed.

Please.

- That's right.

Ali lost to three and a half years of his prime.

And when he was certainly at his best, he would never be the same again.

But it's important to remember that he didn't know he was giving up three and a half years.

He thought he was giving up his whole career, and he was prepared to give up his whole career.

He said he would face a firing squad before he renounced his religion and before he, you know, agreed to serve in Vietnam.

And you know, at first his protest was really all about the fact that Black people were serving and dying in disproportionate numbers in that war.

But it became something bigger.

It became about the principle of religious freedom and conscientious objector status, which is what he claimed.

And you know, he lost and was sentenced to three and a half years in prison.

And eventually that was turned around by the Supreme Court, dismissed on a technicality, really.

But that's what defined him.

Those three and a half years are really what changed him from being an entertaining and brilliant athlete into being a real hero for anybody who's looking for a role model to challenge authority.

- Probably lost a lot of money.

- He really lost a lot.

Yeah.

He lost not only boxing money, but endorsement deals, millions of dollars.

And once again, you know, no telling whether he was gonna get that back.

He certainly never really got back the kind of endorsement deals he would've had at that point.

You know, Coca-Cola and other big name brands were lined up to endorse him, to have him on board.

- You know, Ali, American politics, war, race, sixties into the seventies comes together, Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, both African American, fighters, athletes, icons.

Smoking Joe Frazier from Philadelphia, very different background, very different view on race and politics.

Ali's mocking of Joe Frazier was painful as a kid, to watch, to read about it later and try to understand.

What was going on there?

He called him a gorilla.

He said he was an uncle Tom.

Why did Ali do that?

And was that simply to promote the first of their three extraordinary fights?

- I think Ali thought it was fun and that it was a good way to get under his opponent's skin.

And he didn't care if it upset Joe or if it upset Joe's family.

It's bizarre though, and it's one of the real dark sides in Ali's career because he's this great warrior for racial power, for racial justice, racial equality.

- Absolutely.

- And he's using the most racist tropes to attack Joe Frazier, calling him ugly, and calling him stupid, and calling him a gorilla.

And it's really something that I think Ali, he never properly apologized for it either.

It's one of the real unfortunate blemishes on his record as a person and as an advocate for racial pride.

- Did they reconcile?

- Not really.

You know, they had photo sessions together and Ali always thought that people were gonna love him and they'd get over whatever bothered them because he didn't really care.

But Frazier never got over it.

- No, he did not.

We're with Jonathan Eig, the author of this extraordinary book, Ali, and also a documentary on PBS.

Check it out.

We're with Jonathan Eig.

We'll be right back right after this.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

- We're speaking with Jonathan Eig, who is the author of this book, "Ali."

Hey, you know, can I show this?

Ali did a lot of public appearances.

Hopefully it doesn't feel too egocentric.

Jonathan, you see this shot?

- [Jonathan] Yeah, that's awesome.

- I wasn't as gray at the time.

This is back in the '80s, if you will.

So Ali came to New Jersey to West Orange for a public performance.

It was a fundraiser for the Boys and Girls Clubs of Newark.

Ali was a great entertainer.

He would do these...

He was doing a magic trick.

He put you on the end of his fist, obviously, not hitting anyone.

He was great with people, was he not?

- So great.

And he loved it more than anything.

You know, when he was bored, he would just pick up the phone and call somebody randomly outta the phone book and say, "Hey, can I come over and hang out?"

He'd just go stand on the street corner and wait for people to notice him.

He'd go to airports early.

He's the only person I know who liked airports because he could just sit there all day and, like, talk to people and make friends.

- Yeah.

- And if somebody said to him, you know, "My wife is your biggest fan," he'd say, "Let's go visit her."

And he'd get in the car and go.

He was just really generous with his time and really loved people.

- 1974 is the fight against George Foreman.

So Ali beats, in '64 and '65, he beats Sonny Liston, perceived to be unbeatable, right?

George Foreman perceived to be unbeatable.

Ali fights him.

Ali, not clearly as strong, did not punch as hard.

Describe what happened in the fight and why it's so significant, please.

- By '74, Ali looks like he's slowing down.

He was never a great knockout puncher, and he's coming in against a younger, stronger George Foreman who's just been obliterating everybody.

You know, Frazier beat Ali and Foreman just destroyed Frazier- - Destroyed Frazier.

- in a matter of seconds, knocked him down over and over and over.

That's where we know the phrase "Down goes Frazier."

It's not from an Ali fight, it's from Foreman just beating the hell out of him.

- Was that Cosell?

- Yeah, that was Cosell.

- "Down goes," I'm sorry (laughing).

- Go ahead, do it.

What happens, The Rumble in the Jungle, where are they physically again?

Are they in Africa?

- They were fighting in Zaire.

- Okay.

- In Kinshasa, Zaire.

And it's an incredible scene there.

You know, the two greatest Black heavyweights are fighting in Africa.

It's not just about the pride of America anymore, it's about the pride of another continent as well.

And this is seen as like a proxy.

Who's the baddest Black man on Earth?

And nobody thinks Ali has a chance 'cause Foreman has just been destroying everyone in sight.

And Ali, somehow he fights one of his greatest defensive fights of all time and just waits until Foreman is slowing down and getting tired.

And he is taunting Foreman the whole time.

"Is that all you got, George?

Is that all you got?"

- Is that where rope-a-dope comes from?

- Rope-a-dope, he's just hanging out on the ropes, letting Foreman hit him until Foreman starts to, arms start to get heavy and he can't punch anymore.

And that's when Ali suddenly spins out of the corner, and just with a couple of quick punches, sends Foreman to the mat.

And it's an astonishing moment.

It's Ali's, you know, in some ways his greatest fight, maybe not his greatest technical fight, but his most brilliant fight in a lot of ways.

- So he fights throughout the '70s.

He continues to fight.

When does Parkinson's begin to come into the picture for Ali?

- Well, I did research for this book that suggested that he was showing signs of diminished speech as early as 1971.

So that's the first fight with Frazier, his first comeback really.

So he goes on to fight for another decade and he's showing significant damage over the course of that decade.

So I think his symptoms began to show much earlier than people know.

I also worked with a company to count the punches.

Ali took 200,000 punches in the course of his career.

You know, it's sad, but there's no way to escape that kind of damage.

- And he fights throughout the '70s and he gets to fighting Larry Holmes in 1980, who did not want to fight him.

He was his sparring partner, did not...

He had so much respect for Ali, and it was painful to watch because?

- Ali should not have been in the ring anymore.

And his friends and family should not allow, should not have allowed him to fight anymore.

He was clearly not equipped to be in the ring, certainly with a fighter like Larry Holmes, who was devastating.

And it's, you know, it's sad.

It makes me cry to watch it because he couldn't even defend himself, much less hit his way out of trouble.

And finally, you know, his corner throws in the towel.

And the sad thing is that Ali fights one more time after that.

He couldn't put it down.

He couldn't stop.

He knew he needed the money, but he also just really missed it.

- He needed the money?

- Yeah.

- But also to what degree was some of that money going through the Nation of Islam, A and B?

He had many marriages and children.

So it wasn't just for him, it was for a lot of people around Ali, please.

- Ali, you know, was married three times at that point.

He would marry one more time before he was finished.

And he had this huge entourage that he supported, paid all their medical bills out-of-pocket.

He never invested his money wisely.

And he gave generously to the Nation of Islam.

He gave generously to anybody who, like, who asked him.

He just couldn't say no.

He always thought there'd be more money.

In some ways it's a beautiful thing.

Like, he never stressed about it.

But he also never planned for his post-boxing career.

And his managers really let him down in that respect.

So yeah, that's partly why he kept fighting, you know, when he knew that he really didn't have it anymore.

- What kind of father was Ali?

- He was a wonderful, loving dad, but he wasn't around much.

And you know, as I said, he was married four times.

And so he had kids from three out of those four marriages, and a couple kids from extramarital affairs.

So he was not present for as much as, as some his kids would've liked, I think.

- I'm gonna talk about Ali as the humanitarian for the few minutes we have left.

But Mike Tyson met Ali publicly on "The Arsenio Hall Show" in 1989.

But he first saw him when he was 12 years old.

Tyson saw Ali at 12 years old as a kid, and had extraordinary respect for him.

Read the book, by the way, to find out more about Tyson and Ali.

Ali as a humanitarian and as a significant world figure, please.

- When he was boxing, he was the most famous man on Earth.

And when he retired from boxing, and Parkinson's began to slow him down, he really didn't like the way he looked.

He didn't like the way he sounded, but he continued to travel the world and serve as an ambassador.

He especially focused his efforts on the Middle East and where he wanted to remind Arabs that Americans were not hateful.

And he wanted to remind Americans that Muslims, in particular, were not hateful, that these were peaceful people.

And he spent a lot of time traveling across the world, really trying to spread the message of love.

And he became a much more serious student of Islam.

He eventually left the Nation of Islam and became a traditional Orthodox Muslim.

And this became a really important part of his life.

He made Hajj, he traveled to, you know, Afghanistan.

Some people think that Osama Bin Laden might have been in the audience for one of his lectures in Afghanistan.

So Ali was a really important diplomat in those years.

- Lighting the Olympic torch in Atlanta, was it?

- Yeah, Atlanta, 1996.

- Why was that so significant?

I mean, just, when he was lighting the torch and shaking, why so memorable for so many who saw it?

- I think it's a beautiful moment, one of the most beautiful moments in Olympic history.

Because Ali, first of all, remember he was despised still by many Americans, especially because of his refusal to fight in Vietnam.

- Even then?

- He was still seen- - Yeah, even in the '90s, a lot of people, especially if they were veterans or had people who served in Vietnam, were still angry with Ali.

And he hadn't been seen in a while because he was...

He felt conscious about his condition.

He didn't like to be seen shaking.

But when he agreed to light the Olympic torch, an Americans saw him struggling just to hold the torch steady, struggling to get it lit, looking like he might set himself on fire because the flame was flying up towards his arms.

- Very close to him, right.

- It changed everybody's views on Ali that suddenly, you know, and he expressed it best.

He said afterwards, "Now people are gonna love me more because we all get old, we all get weak, we all die."

And he was only, what, 55 at that point.

He was not an old man, but he looked so frail and so vulnerable.

So it was a new way for all of us to see Ali.

And the courage that it took for him to let us see him that way was really extraordinary.

This book, how did it change you?

When I asked you about the "King" book, same thing.

How did writing this book, researching this book, P.S.

and our producer telling us, 1 billion people watched Ali's funeral, 1 billion.

With a "b".

How did this book change you, Jonathan?

- Yeah, I attended Ali's funeral and it's, to this day, one of the most extraordinary things I've ever seen.

Because not only did you have a billion people watching on TV around the world, you had countless hundreds of thousands of people just pouring into the streets of Louisville.

I talked to people who drove down from Detroit, like, that morning.

I talked to people who flew in from Europe to be there.

And I can't think of another figure in our time who would elicit that kind of a response just to watch the funeral, just to watch the hearse go by.

It was extraordinary.

And I think what it teaches me and what it causes me to reflect on is that, you know, Ali was a unifying symbol.

He was somebody who was controversial, who spoke up for his beliefs, but he loved humanity.

He loved people, and people loved him back, even if they disagreed with him.

And I think, you know, what it causes me to reflect on is the fact that, you know, we have a lot more in common than we have apart.

And we need to remember that sometimes.

Ali really helped us remember that.

- Boy, could we use Muhammad Ali's leadership today, 2024 and beyond.

The book is "Ali", New York Times bestseller.

The author is Jonathan Eig, who has joined us several times.

And we cannot thank you enough for your writing, for your work, and for joining us here on public broadcasting.

And wish you all the best, Jonathan.

Thank you.

- Thank you.

- I'm Steve Adubato.

There'll never be another Muhammad Ali.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Celebrating 30 years in public broadcasting.

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