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- This is One-On-One.

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(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato, my colleague Jacqui Tricarico for "Remember Them."

Jacqui, we remember The Scooter, Phil Rizzuto.

You're too young to appreciate.

You're not an old school.

- Just 'cause I'm too young doesn't mean I don't know Phil Rizzuto.

13 years with the Yankees.

- Go ahead, come on.

Gimme more.

Because we talked to Josh Rawitch, the President of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.

What do you know about Phil Rizzuto?

Come on.

- I mean, he was born in Brooklyn, but later in life he came to New Jersey.

Actually, he said he fell in love in New Jersey and didn't leave.

Basically fell in love with his wife here and didn't leave.

And he had such an amazing career playing baseball and even more awesome career behind the scenes as a sportscaster.

So, we talk a lot about that with Josh who gives us some fun inside stories and some things that some people might not know about Phil Rizzuto.

And I know Steve, you mentioned, of course he has so many connections here in New Jersey.

But you mentioned specifically something about being a grand marshal in a parade in Newark that you walked with him.

- So, as a kid growing up in Newark, the Columbus Day Parade when Columbus was Columbus before he became Columbus, if that makes any sense to anyone.

We used to have this big parade in Newark.

And the grand marshal was, in fact, Phil Rizzuto.

I remember, he was so small.

He was like 5'6."

And he was the grand marshal.

And I remember marching with him.

He wore a brown suit with a brown tie and black shoes.

And I don't know why I remember all that.

But Phil Rizzuto was a fascinating guy.

He was charismatic, he was a character.

As I said in the interview with Josh that you're about to see, he used to broadcast games for WPIX.

And he used to leave the game in the 7th or 8th inning regardless of the score.

Why, Jacqui?

- He had to get back home to New Jersey before the traffic.

- He had to beat the traffic!

That is such a Jersey thing.

Jacqui, is that a Jersey thing?

- We get it.

The traffic.

We're always trying to beat the traffic.

- Always trying to beat the traffic.

For Jacqui and myself.

We take a look at The Scooter, Phil Rizzuto.

On the back half, we're gonna take a look at Rubin "Hurricane" Carter.

And just to let you know, Steve, first we're actually gonna hear from Neal Shapiro, WNET's President, because he himself is a huge Yankees fan and has some really fun things to say about Phil Rizzuto before we go to your interview with Josh.

- Jacqui, don't get me in trouble with our boss, Neal Shapiro.

Who, by the way, knows more about Yankee baseball than just about anyone else.

- So much.

- Neal Shapiro, the President, the CEO of the WNET Group, talking about The Scooter, Phil Rizzuto.

- Remember Them remembers "The Scooter", Phil Rizzuto.

We often go to Neal Shapiro, the President and CEO of the WNET Group.

He understands baseball, knows the Yankees better than most and The Scooter, Phil Rizzuto has to be remembered, Neal, right?

- The best thing about Phil is, you know, he was such an impactful guy and so many points in his career and he was great and wonderful in every one of them.

I mean, as a shortstop, he was one of the best shortstops in the league, you know, and the- - Five time Allstar.

- Exactly.

And MVP, I think in 1950, right?

In the star studied Yankees, the shortstop one year was MVP, all right?

Shows what a ball player he was.

Then he goes on to be a broadcaster and he has a whole 'nother career.

People who actually, people like I started to watch baseball, right, when he was a broadcaster and only later I realized Phil Rizzuto was.

As a broadcaster, he was great because he was certainly, was not- he was not like every other broadcaster, all right?

He spent more time talking about cannolis, more time about teasing Frank White and his partners.

I remember one time White says, "What's the WW on the scorecard?"

And he says, "Wasn't watching."

- Neal, this- I said we weren't gonna talk about this.

He may not have been watching because how often did he talk about wanting to get out of the stadium to make sure he got back to Jersey and get over the bridge before the traffic.

Who does that?

- Well, I grew up in Albany.

I couldn't- it took me the same way.

I said, "What is he talking about?"

When I actually moved to New York, I got it!

He's gotta get back to Jersey before- and he was totally afraid of thunder and lightning.

So again, they would tease him about it all the time.

- I didn't know that!

Is that true?

- Yeah.

He really was afraid of it.

Yeah.

- Phil Rizzuto.

Before I let you go, Neal.

A character, in a positive way.

- And also, he was also, you know, we talk about race relations, like, he and Frank White were such a great, and Bill White, were such a great pair.

Right.

I think there was acknowledgement; they were both ball players, but Rizzuto brought a real respect to everybody he spoke to.

He really, you know, he came up in a time when there was still a bunch of teasing on the Yankees about being Italian wasn't easy.

He took great pride in it.

- That's right.

- He took great pride in everybody's ethnicity.

- Neal and another time other, other- when you choose not to be the leader of public broadcasting, you should just do a podcast about the Yankees.

- (Both laughing) And I'll be a guest.

- All right.

We can both do it.

- Yeah.

We remember the great Phil Rizzuto.

Thank you, Neal.

- Thank you.

- (Narrator) All one has to hear is his signature "“Holy Cow"” to recognize the voice of New York Yankees announcer Phil Rizzuto.

A native of Hillside, New Jersey, Rizzuto or the scooter as he was more commonly known, joined the Yankees in 1937 and hit the big leagues in 1941.

Over the next 15 seasons, he established himself as one of the greatest shortstops in Yankees history, winning ten American League titles and playing in nine World Series and winning seven of them.

Named League MVP in 1950, The Scooter retired from baseball in 1956 and began his 40 year career as one of the Yankees most beloved announcers.

His number ten was retired by the Yankees in 1985, and in 1994 he was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

New Jersey is proud to add him to our Hall of Fame this year.

- Stadium crowd cheering!

- (Rizzuto V.O.)

Ho, right!

Holy cow!

Let's see there.

Oh, yes.

Yeah.

Holy cow!

Did you see that?

Holy cow, State fair!

Who made that sign up?

- Remember Them remembers "The Scooter", Phil Rizzuto.

We're honored to be joined by Josh Rawitch, president of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.

Josh, good to see you my friend.

- Hi Steve.

Thanks for having me.

- Where does "Scooter" come from?

The name?

- Really, basically an early coach gave it to him based on the way he played.

He was a little guy who was fast and the way he moved around the infield, he got the nickname "Scooter" and it stuck for his entire playing career.

- And, you know, as an obsessed Yankee fan back in the day for Rizzuto, Yogi Berra, Mickey Mantle, all of them.

It's interesting that a lot of the Yankee greats big sluggers, home runs, Babe Ruth, et cetera, Mickey Mantle, as I said hit his shot almost going outta the stadium and right field, Rizzuto, five foot six, diminutive.

But his greatest contribution was what?

- Well, it's funny in two different ways.

Certainly when you're talking about his playing days, he was really the crux of it.

You think of what a shortstop does.

He was incredible defensively, he was a great bunter and people like Ted Williams said when you look back at those championship teams, that was the glue that kept the team together.

That was the most important part of it.

So yeah, I think a lot of people look at home runs and big swings and big pitchers.

But Rizzuto is one of these guys who won five in a row.

That's just, it's almost unheard of nowadays.

- You know what's interesting is, as you talk about The Scooter Phil Rizzuto and Hall of Fame, we'll put up the website, people can check out the artifacts.

We're about to show some Phil Rizzuto's artifacts that are in the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.

Fifth, if I have this wrong, tell me, Josh.

15 times he was put up for the Hall of Fame, not voted in, but then you mentioned Ted Williams.

Ted Williams, the great Ted Williams, batted 400.

The last player, to bat, if I'm not mistaken, 400.

Rod Carew did or did not.

- He didn't get there.

He was very close.

- 398 I believe it was.

So here's the question, what exactly did the great Ted Williams do and say to help get Phil Rizzuto into the Hall of Fame?

- Well, I think as you look at the way our process works, the Era committee is intended so that if the baseball writers don't elect somebody, you kind of have more time to look back at history and see people's contributions.

So whether it was Williams or any of the players who played against him or, I mean, he was truly one of the most beloved figures in the game for 50 plus years.

Anytime they raised his profile and spoke about him, it allowed those who then went into, at the time, was called the Veterans Committee.

They would, they would hear about it, they would understand more about who he was and what he added.

And then ultimately after quite some time, he got himself elected to the hallowed halls of Cooperstown right behind me.

- You know what's interesting- particularly interesting for us on Remember Them, Jacqui and I did a program featuring Yogi Berra, the great Yogi Berra.

Yogi Berra from New Jersey for Rizzuto resided in Hillside, if I'm not mistaken.

They had a very close relationship and particularly at the end, the two of them were there for each other right until the day each one of them passed.

What was their relationship beyond baseball and why was it so close?

As a kid, I remember the Rizzuto Berra bowling alley on route three in Clifton, New Jersey.

So, Rizzuto, Yogi Berra, business partners, friends, teammates, talk about them.

- Well, it's interesting.

I mean, back in the day you had to have another job because you weren't making enough money.

And so I was just not that long ago, about 10 days ago, at the Yogi Berra Museum there in New Jersey and spent some time with... - Montclair State University.

- Exactly, yeah.

Spent some time with both Yogi's, son and granddaughter and they just talked about how close that team was.

And in particular, those two, as time went on, they basically experienced life together.

And if you think about two people who were...

There's really nobody more identified with the Yankees maybe than those two over the course of the second half of the 20th century.

So to be able to come up together, to win all these championships together, to serve in the military together, to do all the things that they did and then, well not technically together, but at the same period of time.

And then ultimately to go on and, and win championships together both on the field as executives, managers, broadcasters, all the things that they did.

And then ultimately, as you said, they they didn't pass too far apart from each other.

They lived very parallel lives and were very good friends.

- And his famous expression as a Yankee broadcaster on WPIX.

Go ahead, you say it.

- "Holy cow!"

- Where does "Holy cow" come from?

- Oh man.

You know, he said early on in his life, a high school coach had him do that as a means of not swearing on the field.

- (laughs) I didn't know that.

I couldn't tell you if that's true.

That was his, that was his explanation for it.

But yeah, it obviously stuck for decades and decades later.

- As a broadcaster.

Again, I am sorry for sharing all these stories but I remember my older son, Steven, who just turned 30, just reminded me how old I am.

He's five or six years old, I take him to the Yankee Stadium with our great friend Rick Cerone, who was one of the older kids in the neighborhood I grew up with played baseball from the Yankees.

He was a broadcaster side by side with The Scooter.

And we sat in the booth for an inning just listening and watching for Rizzuto and Rick Cerone call that game.

He was, I mean, as a broadcaster, we appreciate other's styles.

His style was unique, was it not?

- Yeah, I mean it was a lot of stream of consciousness.

It was certainly in an era where a lot of broadcasters wanted to be right down the middle and not show too much fandom.

He always said, "Look, I'm a Yankee, that's the way it's gonna come across."

And so he would read fan mail on the air, give birthday shout outs and anniversary, just things that wouldn't fly probably nowadays.

But I think he was very relatable.

It's why even if he had never had the playing career that he did as good as he was on the field, the next 40 years as a broadcaster made him still one of the most beloved Yankees of all time.

- Hmm.

Josh, as we show the footage of the artifacts, if you will, at the Hall of Fame, describe what's there?

The Rizzuto artifacts.

- Yeah.

I mean, what we have, what's pretty fascinating, we have the Hickok Belt was given and still given to the greatest athlete in North America.

And so when you talk about figures like Muhammad Ali or more modern times LeBron James, you get to have Phil Rizzuto win the very first one of those after his MVP season.

- In 1950?

- Just, just how big he was.

- Was that 1950?

- Yes, it was exactly.

- I'm sorry.

- So the first time that, that award was given out, Phil Rizzuto got that.

And then among the other things that we have in the museum, we've got spikes of his, which again, you're not changing those out constantly.

You're talking about size seven and a half.

There's not a whole lot of seven and a half size feet in the big leagues nowadays or back then.

And then an amazing glove we have on display here at the museum that we were just looking at it this morning right before I came on the air and I mean, it looks like it was used for all 10 years.

It just, you can tell the number of times that he's gone through and had it repaired.

And it's just such a different time now where players will get a new glove, if not every year, multiple times a year, new shoes, multiple times a month.

These were not artifacts that, that turned over very frequently and we're grateful to have them as part of our collection.

- You know, Josh, to you and the team at the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum cannot thank you enough for providing not just your expertise and insight on The Scooter Phil Rizzuto, you see the book behind me, but also just inviting us into your home.

So thank you to you and your team and, and Jacqui and I and the team of Remember Them are honored to be able to recognize the great Phil Rizzuto The Scooter from Hillside, New Jersey, his wife Cora, those Yankee games.

There's just, even though we love the Yankees now, they'll never be the same without The Scooter.

Thanks so much.

Appreciate it Josh.

- You bet.

Hope to see you all in Cooperstown soon.

You got it, that's right.

Hey, go up to Cooperstown, check it out.

The website's been up there.

Take a trip up in New York.

It's more than worth it.

Be right back right after this.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

"Remember Them" now honors, recognizes, remembers Rubin "Hurricane" Carter.

We interviewed, Jacqui, the author of this book, Jim Hirsch.

What did you take away from it?

Because Phil Rizzuto is known by a lot of old-school Yankee fans like myself.

Hurricane Carter, some know him from the Bob Dylan song about The Hurricane, Hurricane Carter.

But what did you take from that interview with Hirsch?

- Well, I think it's important to note that we talk significantly with Jim Hirsch about the conviction and the murder conviction that Rubin Carter had that put him in jail for almost 20 years.

- A 1966 murder in a Paterson bar.

- Yep, this all happened in Paterson, New Jersey.

- Paterson.

He was a boxer at the time.

He fought for the Middleweight championship a couple years before that.

And many argue Rubin Carter was wrongfully convicted in that case and served 20 years in prison.

Go ahead, Jacqui.

- Right.

It's not so just one side or the other.

There's so many nuances to the whole case.

And I think it's important to hear about that.

And you bring up some of those things with your interview with Jim.

That he was let out of jail along with the other gentleman that was convicted as well for those crimes after 20 years.

And Rubin Carter did go on to really try to help other wrongfully convicted people.

He had an organization set up, and he was in Canada.

He really was trying to spend later parts of his life.

- He was a social activist.

He was an activist.

He made a difference.

- He did.

He made a difference in a lot of people's lives.

And that's important to note as well.

It's a story that we still hear about today.

I mean, just a few years ago there were more articles out about this case.

And what's the truth?

What's not the truth?

I don't know if we'll ever know the truth.

- But Jacqui often says this.

We've honored... You know what?

I gotta watch myself saying honor, Jacqui.

We recognize, we talk about, we highlight all kinds of people with all different backgrounds.

Some are iconic heroes that are not very controversial.

Others are important to remember because they had impact.

That is The Hurricane, Rubin Carter.

For Jacqui, myself, and the team at "Remember Them," we look at Rubin "Hurricane" Carter.

- Remember them, remembers Rubin "Hurricane" Carter.

We're joined by James S. Hirsch journalist and author of the book "Hurricane: The Miraculous Journey of Rubin Carter."

Good to see you, Jim.

- Good to see you.

Thank you.

- Talk to folks about why we should remember Hurricane Carter.

- In many ways, he was a historic figure in that while he came to fame as a prize fighter in the 1960s he was of course, wrongfully accused of a, triple homicide in Paterson, New Jersey in 1966.

And the case really became a lightning rod in the civil rights movement.

Rubin always claimed that he did not commit the crimes.

He ended up receiving a lot of support from celebrities around the country, and he always claimed that he was railroaded by a racist criminal justice system.

And that view was ultimately confirmed.

He was twice convicted of this crime.

Both convictions were overturned and the issues that he tried to bring to the fore about systemic racism in our legal system specifically I think have have now been confirmed many times over and is something that we as a country are still grappling with, today.

how many years in, in jail?

Jim?

- Almost 20.

Real quick point on this, by way of background as a journalist in the nineties, I did some research and interviewed some people who were either eyewitnesses to that incident in Paterson or prosecutors and government officials.

And by the way, it was prosecutorial misconduct that caused Rubin Carter to be let out of prison.

I wanna be clear, it was not that it was concluded that he did not commit murder.

Correct?

- Correct.

But just so you understand how our criminal justice system works, it was not incumbent upon Rubin to prove that he did not commit the murder.

It was incumbent upon the prosecutors to prove that he did.

And the only way the prosecutors could do so, as you said was by engaging in misconduct, specifically in concealing important evidence and engaging in racism which is ultimately what the reviewing judges confirmed.

So Rubin's critics over the years have claimed that, well Rubin was never proven innocent but it wasn't Rubin's responsibility to prove his innocence.

It was responsibility the prosecutors to prove his guilt and they failed.

- Rubin Carter comes out of, born in 1937, if I'm not mistaken.

Clifton, New Jersey.

New Jersey a big part of his life?

- It is an important part of his life because it was where he was raised and it was, of course, the site of the homicide for which he was wrongfully accused in 1966.

And specifically what was going on in Paterson, New Jersey at that time was important because at the time, Paterson was experiencing white flight and there were racial tensions in the community.

So there were these other factors surrounding the crime itself that led to the pressures for the authorities to find someone who committed this crime and specifically to find an outspoken black person as Rubin was in the 1960s.

- Was Rubin Carter in the bar the night the murders took place?

- No.

- He was never in the bar?

- No.

- And that was found to be a fact that he was not there?

- Well, the prosecutors accused Rubin of being in the bar.

It was called the Lafayette Bar and Grill.

And so, yeah, they claimed that Rubin was there and they had ultimately two discredited eyewitnesses who claimed that they saw Rubin going into the bar at the time.

But that testimony was ultimately proven not true.

And, and what's interesting about the case was that, how there was virtually no physical evidence surrounding the case.

There were no fingerprints, no blood stains no clothing fiber, no hair fiber.

If you follow what's going on in the criminal justice system over the years, through all kinds of sophisticated DNA analysis and other methods, we can now identify where people were and what crime scenes, many years after the fact that wasn't possible in this murder, because there was no physical evidence putting Rubin as well as John Artis, who was also accused of the crime.

There was no physical evidence that put them in the bar on that night.

- Let me ask you this, Jim.

Rubin Carter, as an activist, greatest contribution outside, of frankly, being a very talented boxer who was in prison really in the prime of his career 1966 and beyond for 20 years, as Jim said talk about his impact as an activist particularly fighting for racial and social justice.

- He was, he participated in many of the marches that were happening in the 1960s.

He was friends with Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King.

He knew all of them because of his prominence as a boxer that gave him entree to the leading civil rights activist of the time.

Now, it should be said that Rubin was definitely on the more militant side of the activist continuum.

He was quoted saying these incendiary things about how you know, "We need to take up arms against white supremacists."

And those comments drew a lot of attention, unflattering attention for him that, he scared white people because he looked menacing.

He had the bald head, the Fu Manchu mustache.

He was incredibly muscular.

And he was out there saying not, "Hey, let's all, you know, sit around and link arms and find brotherhood."

He was saying "no, if need be we have to be militant in our, in fighting for our rights.

- Let me ask you this, the most significant contribution of Rubin "Hurricane" Carter, not boxing, but activism and his trial and his being let out of prison.

And it's long time, I'm speaking, I'm getting on my own soapbox, and the impact it's had on the justice system.

- I think his greatest contribution is his perseverance.

He insisted from day one that he was innocent and after he was convicted, he said "I will not give up to win my freedom."

And he spent 20 years, he ultimately won his freedom.

He came out a better person than he was when he went in.

And anyone who wants to know about his life is now, they've made, you know, movies, films, documentaries, books.

Just this was a guy who never gave up.

And to me that even beyond his critique of American society, that is what, in my view, is his most powerful lesson.

- Jim your book is an important contribution.

Jim Hirsch, journalist and author of "Hurricane: The Miraculous Journey of Rubin Carter."

Jim, thank you so much for joining us in Remember Them.

- Thank you as well.

- To all of you who are fans of Watch Remember Them and our sister program One-on-One.

We appreciate you staying with us.

We, Jacqui Tricarico and I work hard every time we do this show to remember people who are significant, made contributions and we need to remember.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Holy Name.

Choose New Jersey.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Newark Board of Education.

The North Ward Center.

The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

Community FoodBank of New Jersey.

And by Seton Hall University.

Promotional support provided by NJ.Com.

And by ROI-NJ.

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