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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change Presidents in this country is by voting.

- A quartet is already a jawn, it’s just The New Jawn.

- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I mean what other country sends comedians over to embedded military to make them feel better.

- People call me 'cause they feel nobody's paying attention.

-_ It’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato.

My colleague, Jacqui Tricarico.

This is "Remember Them."

Woodrow Wilson.

We remember him by talking, Jacqui to Professor John Milton Cooper, author of that book, "Woodrow Wilson: A Biography."

Now, you saw that interview, Jacqui, and the professor knows Wilson and his legacy better than most.

What stood out for you in the interview we're about to see.

- So with Wilson, there's so many facets to his life and his career.

Obviously, being a Princeton University president for some time brings it back here to New Jersey, and his legacy that he left at Princeton, but then Princeton, more recently, taking his name away from their school, from the buildings that his name had been put on.

Talking to Professor Cooper about that was really insightful.

I don't have my own opinion about it.

I'm not really sure what the right direction was there, but when you look at a president who served over 100 years ago and what the times were then versus what the times are now, there's a lot to say about how things have shifted and changed and what we should be focusing on.

- Jacqui, I hear you.

I'm sorry for interrupting, but I gotta do this.

You ever notice how often I say I'm sorry for interrupting?

So let's put Wilson in perspective.

Not only president of Princeton University, Governor of New Jersey.

Elected President of the United States - Like I said many facets to the career.

- What's that?

- Like I said, so much to his career and his life.

- But then we enter World War I, changes the world.

Nobel Peace Prize, right?

He wins it.

But what Jacqui's talking about, Princeton University and other universities took down Wilson's name from the Woodrow Wilson School of International Affairs, and Wilson was accused by many of having racist tendencies and wanting to segregate the federal civil service, which had been integrated before he took over.

This is almost 50 years after the Civil War.

When I asked the professor about it, Professor Cooper, he kept saying it was a different time.

Wilson was from the South, that we were being somewhat unfair to him, and he thought Princeton University was terribly wrong.

People will decide for themselves, but a complex legacy for Wilson, not just a great leader.

Yes, but.

Go ahead.

Dr. Cooper really does have that wealth of knowledge about Wilson and brings so much anecdotal information and stories to your conversation.

So we get to learn a little bit more of who Wilson was in front of and behind who he was as president, as governor of New Jersey, as president of Princeton University.

- Jacqui, quiz time on "Remember Them."

You ready?

- Love when you do this stuff.

Love when you do this, Steve.

Love quiz time.

- That's why I never tell you what I wanna talk about.

Are you ready?

Woodrow Wilson, President 1920.

The most significant thing he did in 1920 and why you and more than half the population are able to vote right now is?

- All right-- - I just gave you the clue.

- I know that one.

(Jacqui chuckling) He ratified the 19th Amendment, women being able to vote and we do a whole nother show about the women's rights movement in New Jersey, very specifically in New Jersey, what that meant, but obviously, throughout the nation.

And it was under Woodrow Wilson that that was finally ratified and put into law.

And even before that, that was 1920, 1915, Woodrow Wilson came here to New Jersey when there was...

There was an election time where a lot of the suffragists got onto the ballot the fact to move the 19th Amendment, to create the 19th Amendment.

He was here in New Jersey.

Those suffragists brought him to vote for this.

Unfortunately, at that time in 1915, it did not pass.

We had to wait five more years later.

But that was an important part of Woodrow Wilson's legacy too.

- Do you realize how much Jacqui Tricarico's learned about history doing this series?

We hope you're learning as well.

From Jacqui and myself.

- "Jeopardy."

I need to go on "Jeopardy."

(Jacqui chuckling) - Oh yeah, you'd be great on that.

This is Professor John M. Cooper, the author of the book over my left shoulder, "Woodrow Wilson: A biography," let's check it out.

- We're now joined by Professor John M. Cooper, Emeritus Professor at University of Wisconsin-Madison, and author of that book right there, compelling, powerful, important book, "Woodrow Wilson: A Biography."

Professor, good to have you with us.

- Glad to be here - So we are a New Jersey based production operation, and while Woodrow Wilson, as President, had an impact on the world, particularly around World War I, that we'll talk about, talk about Woodrow Wilson and his quote-unquote "New Jersey connection," please.

- Well, I stopped to think about it and did a little count.

Wilson lived for 67 years, and he lived for a little over 22 years in New Jersey.

And that's not counting his four years as a student at Princeton.

So that's a lot of his life.

And in fact, that's the longest time that he ever lived anywhere.

That's one thing.

And then of course he became governor of New Jersey.

So he'd been president of Princeton before that and he got a lot of publicity because he was a dynamic, reforming president of Princeton.

He was really shaking this old college up and putting it on the road to being a major university.

And that helped him get the nomination for governor.

And then his governorship propelled him into the presidency.

So New Jersey was important to him, and he owed a lot to New Jersey.

- You know what's so interesting?

He served two years as governor.

Well, let's go back.

Let's go back 'cause the Princeton piece of this is so complex, and you understand it probably better than anyone, Professor Cooper.

- Yeah.

- He was the president of Princeton University during what time?

- 1902 to 1910, eight years.

- He then gets elected governor in what year?

- 1910.

- And he only serves two years.

- That's correct.

- Because?

- And the governors in those days, it was strange, they served a three year term there.

You know, it was odd.

In fact, it was unusual that he got elected governor in 1910, which was kind of a national off-year, where congressmen and senators or senators are still legislature, but whereas most governors and representatives in Congress.

So that was unusual.

The reason that he left is that he had to resign because he'd been elected President before his term as governor expired.

By the way, in those days, New Jersey didn't have a lieutenant governor.

It was the Senate President became.

- That's right.

- Became governor.

- Let's clarify this.

The 1947 Constitution in New Jersey, which we often make reference to, Governor Alfred Driscoll, a key player in shaping that constitution.

That is what moved New Jersey, and if I'm wrong, the professor will correct me, that is what moved New Jersey to a four year term.

Two terms limited.

But also Lieutenant Governor did not come up until much later.

The Senate President was still the second ranking state leader for many, many years until Kim Guadagno first and then the late great Sheila Oliver became Lieutenant Governor.

Let's go back.

- Yeah.

- So Will, I'm gonna go back to Princeton in a second.

There's so many pieces here, and we're doing the entire program with Professor Cooper.

Wilson and World War I.

- Yeah.

By the way, there's a famous quotation of his that we all quote, everybody who writes about Wilson quotes.

He said to one of his friends from the faculty of Princeton sometime between when he was elected and he went to Washington to be inaugurated, he said, "It would be an irony of fate if my administration had to deal chiefly with foreign problems."

Now, that's the part that everybody quotes, because guess what?

He sure did.

Increasingly, his presidency, and especially in a second term, was eaten up or consumed with foreign problems.

- Professor, I'm gonna interrupt you for a second.

My bad.

I should have asked, how did he even become President before we talk about being President and the United States entry into World War I and Wilson's critical role in that?

Please, my bad professor.

Sorry, go ahead.

- That's all right.

That's a fun story in itself.

Wilson, from almost the moment he got elected governor was being talked about for President.

It was both parties were looking for, well, no, the Democrats were looking for fresh faces, and here was a fresh face.

What's more, he immediately tangled with New Jersey's Democratic boss, a guy, a man named James Smith, known as "Sugar Jim" Smith.

The reason for that was that he previously served a term in the US Senate and had been very friendly and helpful to the sugar refining industry.

Well, "Sugar Jim" Smith wanted to go back to the Senate.

This had been back in the 1890s when he served, and Republicans had dominated New Jersey since then.

So he'd been out and this was his chance to get back in.

And Wilson said, "No."

Wilson fought him on that.

That really established Wilson as a progressive, a reformer, somebody who was out for clean, honest, responsive government, which was the thing that was the coming thing in politics in those days.

Well, with that, he immediately became de facto front runner for the Democratic nomination.

Here was this fresh face.

And pretty much the more established Democratic leaders thought, "Hey, we've lost four in a row of presidential elections.

That’s not...

If this guy wants to be our sacrificial lamb, fine."

Well, things have changed.

The Republicans were tearing themselves apart.

As you know, in 1912 Theodore Roosevelt.

- That's Teddy Roosevelt.

Was that a three-way fight?

Help us on this.

Were they battling with each other?

The Republicans?

I'm sorry, go ahead.

- Oh, no, no, no.

Yeah, it was three ways.

I mean, President Taft narrowly secured, some said stole, I think that's a little unfair, the nomination.

Roosevelt then, and his supporters bolted the party and formed their new party, the Progressive Party.

And everybody knew that the main event, Taft had been a lackluster and unsuccessful, uninspiring President.

- Right.

- It's a little unfair to him, but Roosevelt clearly, I mean, Roosevelt was the most dynamic, colorful.

- The Rough Riders.

- Rough Riders, President, rancher, hunter, everything.

Yeah, he was just, in many ways, the glamor boy of American politics in those days.

And everybody knew that the race was gonna be between him and Wilson.

And in effect, that's what it was.

Taft stayed in the race, frankly, because he wanted to make sure that Roosevelt didn't win.

- They split up the vote.

- That they split the Republican vote, exactly.

- Wilson wins - Wilson won.

And what happened was Wilson could have played it safe.

He had an undivided party and a lot of the smart money was saying, "Hey, Governor, just kind of cool it and just coast your way in."

Well, that wasn't Wilson's way.

I mean, Wilson was a thinker, an orator, and he wanted to be a dynamic reforming president.

So he in effect, debated Roosevelt.

They never met each other face to face.

So, you know, it's not Lincoln-Douglas.

- Well, how'd they debate?

- One would say something on his campaign speech and the other would in effect answer it.

- You mean it's like social media before social media, except they're going back and forth at a distance?

- Something like that.

Yes, yes.

And each one was looking for the other's weak spot.

Now, it's interesting, and let me point this out because it's so.

- I wanna get through this 'cause I wanna get to World War I. I'm sorry for pressing, but I wanna get to World War I.

Go ahead.

So how does he win the election?

- Basically, he won the election as if he had played it safe.

He got the Democratic vote.

And actually a little more than Bryan had gotten four years before.

- William Jennings Bryan.

- Right.

Roosevelt and Taft divided the Republican vote.

But actually that vote went down too.

The total vote went up a bit.

And the reason it did was that the fourth candidate, Eugene Debbs, the socialist, got the highest percentage a socialist or a left wing candidate has ever gotten in American politics.

He doubled his own vote from 1908.

- So, let me ask you this.

What was the percentage of the vote that Wilson got?

- 42.

42%.

- He wins the presidency with 42% of the vote.

Professor, when we come back.

I'm sorry for pushing you like this, but there's, I just, I wanna get to World War I, but I also wanna do this.

Let's be clear.

It's one thing to talk about, and Jacqui and I talked about this, going into this segment, it's one thing to talk about Wilson as an international leader.

Did what he did to get the United States into World War I.

We will talk about the League of Nations, but we're also gonna talk with Professor Cooper about the fact that many believed, and there is evidence to conclude, that Woodrow Wilson had some thoughts, feelings, and espoused many of them, and acted on them, that many argue were racist.

That is why his name is no longer affiliated with the place that he was the president of, Princeton University.

The Woodrow Wilson School of International Affairs, which rejected me many years ago when I tried to get in, is no longer named that.

There's a whole range of issues you wanna talk about with Professor John M. Cooper, talking about fascinating character in our "Remember Them" series, Woodrow Wilson.

Be right back after this.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

We're back talking with Professor John M. Cooper, Professor Emeritus over at the University of Wisconsin Madison, author of the book behind me, my left shoulder, "Woodrow Wilson: A Biography."

So, World War I.

What's at stake for the United States, A, and B, how do we enter it with Wilson as President?

- Belatedly and reluctantly.

He did not wanna get us into the war.

And the vast majority of the American people did not wanna get into the war.

It was... Again, this was Europe.

Europe is what we had rejected.

This is the Old World.

This is what everything is wrong with those monarchs and those aristocrats and those militarists.

And that's what we don't want.

And it pretty much the idea was that we'll stand back, and it's, you know, when they come to their senses, we'll mediate it for them.

That's what Wilson wanted to do.

That's what his Secretary of State, Brian, wanted to do.

That was the first nine months of the war.

The big change came on May 7th, 1915.

That's when a German submarine sank the Lusitania.

The Lusitania was the biggest ship afloat, the biggest liner.

The Titanic had gone down.

- In the world.

- In the world.

Over 1,200 died in the sinking of the Lusitania.

125, 26 of them were Americans.

This was the war reaching out and touching us.

A journalist later, 10 years later, went around and, you know, it's kind of, you know, person on the street interviews.

"What do you remember from that day?"

Everybody that he interviewed remembered where they'd been, what they thought, what they'd done for the rest of the day.

Sounds kinda like 9-11.

Doesn't it?

Sounds kinda like Kennedy's assassination.

It's one of those consciousness searing events.

That's what brought the war home.

And then, our relations with the war become a major political issue.

Wilson once said, he said to Bryan, he said, "I wanted to satisfy the double wish of our people."

Which is to get satisfaction from what Germany has done, that's honor, but to do nothing that will get us into this war.

So peace with honor.

And how do you square that circle?

Well, basically what happens is up until 1917, early 1917, Wilson goes into, it's kind of like almost a kind of extreme slow motion tennis match back and forth, dealing with the Germans diplomatically.

In the spring of 1916, he pushed them.

He said, "Put up or shut up."

In other words, reign in the submarines or we'll break diplomatic relations, which was implying moving toward war.

- We were gonna enter the war.

- No, yeah.

This is spring of 1916.

- Yes.

- The Germans gave in.

They pulled back.

They reigned in their submarines, and they kept them reigned in until they decided, they made a decision at the beginning of 1917 to unleash them.

And at that time, the threat of war receded.

You know, our cancer conscious term, now, would be that it was in remission.

But people thought that's okay.

Now, one of the campaign slogans in 1916, that just so happened, lucky for Wilson, that happened when his reelection campaign came up.

And one of the democratic slogans was, "He kept us out of war."

But historians, my fellow historians have made big mistakes about that.

They said, "Oh yeah, well, he kept us outta war in Europe."

No, the war in Europe, by and large as a public political issue, had gone on the back burner.

Yeah, okay.

That's done.

- Professor, I hate to do this, but when do we enter the war?

- April 6th, 1917.

Wilson went on April 2nd, 1917.

He went before Congress and asked for a declaration of war.

Congress debated it for four days, and passed it in both houses by large majorities.

But there still was significant descent.

- Yes.

- And that's one of the problems with our waging World War I was there's just an awful lot of both opposition and a lot of people just weren't sure what this thing was all about.

Why are we really in it?

The Allies were teetering on the break of defeat.

We saved them.

That was where... That determined the outcome of World War I.

Now, not right immediately.

- Over time.

- The allies would've lost.

- So, Wilson wins the Nobel Peace Prize.

The League of Nations is proposed.

The United States never enters the League of Nations, which was a great regret for him.

- Oh yeah.

- And again, we're doing short shrift to this 'cause there's so many pieces to this.

But I promised viewers that we would deal with this and we must.

He's seen as an international leader.

He's a strong President of the United States.

He's a "progressive" president in many ways.

He's a scholar and an academic who comes out of Princeton as a former professor and then president of the university.

However, when he was president, he dealt with the issue of "segregation" by resegregating, if you will, certain federal agencies that heretofore were starting to be desegregated, meaning, and some people argued, legitimately in a lot of cases, that he had racist tendencies or that he had those thoughts.

A, legitimate.

B, in 2016, Princeton University took a vote and the board of trustees opted not to take his name down.

Many students, African American students, and others pressed the issue.

And in 2020, Wilson's name was taken off of every building at Princeton and in other universities across this country.

Which part do I have wrong, professor?

- On the surface, Steve, you don't have anything wrong.

But you know, there's that line in Moby Dick where Ahab says "A little lower lay, Mr.

Starbuck."

"Let's look at it a little more."

He didn't really segregate the federal government.

He allowed, permitted, he didn't initiate it, but permitted some of his cabinet secretaries to try to put formal segregation in.

- Why?

- Why?

Because they were southerners.

Because they said, and it was kind of an issue, that Mr. President, "Our people are really upset that you've got black men bossin' white women."

You know, which was not true.

But it was that kind of issue.

Look, Wilson was a southerner of sorts, and I could go in more, anyway.

- Yeah, but we also called him a progressive, and he did a lot of things in a progressive way.

But there's nothing progressive about that.

And I know it's easy to do it a hundred years later, but help us understand what his thinking was.

- His thinking was, actually, there were plenty of white progressives who were for antitrust reform, primaries, all of these things against big business, were also racist.

No, no, no, no.

The idea that you couldn't be a racist if you were progressive, no, that was not true in those days.

Now look, Wilson though.

I think one of the most, something that people tend to use as a shorthand for explaining all of this is that he was born and raised in the south.

Yes, he was, but he lived his entire adult life in the north.

And he turned down, as an academic, some opportunities to go back to the south in a big way, including to be president of the University of Virginia.

He had the attitudes of a northern white of that time.

Now, what that meant was most northern whites didn't care about race.

So they saw it as a pesky, you know, pesky distraction, a southern problem, there are other more important things to think about.

I'm not saying they were right, but that's how they thought.

- But, professor, I'm sorry for, again, we can't expand the time, so I wanna be clear.

Princeton University took his name down, other universities did as well, on the grounds of race.

His quote-unquote, as some believed, "racist" thoughts, feelings, and statements.

- Yeah.

- Do you believe Princeton University and those other universities were wrong?

- Yes, I do.

My only, my only... Gimme a minute or less on this professor, please.

- Okay.

There is no President, except Thomas Jefferson, who is more associated, closely associated with any university than Wilson is with Princeton.

And he's the man, as I said, who took this old fashioned college and transformed it or put it on the road to becoming a major university.

To take his name off, I think is just wrong.

Wrong.

Despite his sins, I think that is just wrong.

- Professor John M. Cooper, author of the book behind me, "Woodrow Wilson: A Biography," Emeritus Professor at University of Wisconsin Medicine.

Professor, I can't thank you enough for joining us.

And I know that there are so many other aspects of Wilson's life and this book will tell you a lot of that, if not all of it.

Thank you, professor.

We appreciate it.

- You're welcome.

Glad to be here.

- Steve Adubato, for my colleague Jacqui Tricarico, We thank you so much for watching "Remember Them."

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Celebrating 30 years in public broadcasting.

Funding has been provided by PSEG Foundation.

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Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

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And by The Russell Berrie Foundation.

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And by BestofNJ.com.

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