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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

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- A quartet is already a jawn, it’s just The New Jawn.

- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

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(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato with my co-anchor and our Executive Producer, Jacqui Tricarico.

Jacqui, today we look, it's interesting.

"Remember Them" on One-on-One looks at, 90% of the people we look at are important figures who made meaningful contributions in a very positive way, artists, actors, athletes, coaches, all kinds of interesting people.

Today we look at three New Jersey, Hudson County, Jersey City-based politicians who were often less than scrupulous, but all very powerful in their own way, and we kick off with talking about Frank "I am the Law" Hague, So let's do this.

We start off talking with two folks who put a very interesting artistic twist on Frank Hague, Margo Hammond and Frank Hankey.

Can you put that in perspective?

- Yeah, Margo wrote this play called "Horseshoe Empire," all about Frank Hague and that time in Jersey City history.

So, the play is actually taking place June 10th to the 18th in Jersey City, right by the Jersey City Museum there.

So, a chance to check out that play, and what they decided to do and include about Frank Hague specifically and his reign on Jersey City before and after becoming mayor.

'Cause Steve, it's a lot more than just the time he was mayor, correct?

His imprint and what he did in Jersey City and around New Jersey in politics expands beyond that.

- You know what's so interesting about this?

We're taping this program in late February, 2024.

There's a democratic primary for the United States Senate going on right now, and you may ask, what does that have to do with this edition of "Remember Them"?

Well, all three people we look at, we look at Frank Hague, who was the mayor of Jersey City for many, many years, as I said.

After him, we look at John V. Kenny, the mayor in Jersey City in 1949 to 1953.

And Thomas Whelan, the mayor of Jersey City from '63 to '71.

All of them are party bosses.

Translation: there's a whole discussion going on right now as to how much influence party bosses should have.

Well, that's in 2024.

Back in the day, Jacqui, all the way back into the '20s, '30s, '40s, '50s, '60s, beyond party bosses, particularly in Jersey City and Hudson County, had tremendous influence, not just on local politics, but if you were running for governor, you had to go through these three guys.

If you were running for United States Senate, you had to go through these three guys and a whole range of other political bosses, Democratic party bosses.

But Frank Hague, a fascinating guy as we find out in this interview.

Let me ask you, you saw the interview we did with Margo and Frank and also the David Wildstein from "NJ Globe," the editor there.

We're gonna talk about all these folks.

You're not an especially political person the way I grew up in a political family, but what did you take away from those discussions?

- Well, it's interesting, Steve, how each one of these men are intertwined in some way or another.

All of their reigns over Jersey City all kind of connected, some of them overlapping, right?

So, I think just looking at, this time, we're looking at New Jersey, some of New Jersey's most corrupt politicians, Jersey City.

We've looked at some others on our series, "Remember Them," but there's definitely a lot to look into.

- Hold on, Jacqui.

Some of them are straight out mobsters that we looked at, Richie Boiardo and others.

But I wanna be clear, when Jacqui and I talk about corrupt politicians in the show, they were indicted by the United States government, convicted by the United States government.

I just wanna be clear that it's not because we're saying they were corrupt.

They were charged with crimes and it was usually about money, which is in a lot of ways, take a look at Hudson County, not the only county, but take a look at people who come out of Hudson County and political life.

Sometimes there's a connection between that and using your office, Jacqui, for financial gain.

Could you imagine such a thing in New Jersey.

- Yeah.

Something, too, about Frank Hague.

You know, it was said that he made $8,500 a year, that was his salary, a city salary when he was mayor.

But he was estimated to have over $10 million at the time of his death.

- How do you do it?

- So, where did all that money come from?

- Jacqui, what an investor Frank Hague must have been.

- Yeah, right.

- Well, we look at Frank Hague, we look at John V. Kenny and we look at Thomas Whelan.

And truly try to understand, would "Remember Them," particularly when you watch it on One-On-One.

Look, the whole idea of this series is to look at people who are no longer with us, who have some connection to New Jersey, who impacted our lives, who impacted not only the lives of 8-9 million people in New Jersey, but the region, the nation, and particularly John V. Kenny, people running for president, they checked in with him, as I said before.

Especially governors and congressmen and United States Senators.

So, for Jacqui Tricarico, myself and the entire "Remember Them" One-on-One team, we look at three less than scrupulous public officials coming out of Jersey City.

- We are pleased to be joined by Margo Hammond, who is the playwright of, "Horseshoe Empire," and Frank Hankey, who's the actor who plays Frank Hague in, "Horseshoe Empire."

I wanna thank you, Margo and Frank for joining us.

We appreciate it.

- Great.

Thank you.

- Yes, we remember Frank Hague.

Now first of all, Margo, describe, "Horseshoe Empire."

What is it and why that name?

- Oh, I think I took it from the, "Boardwalk Empire," idea, because Frank Hague, of course, was active at the same time as, what's the guy's name down in Atlantic City?

- Was it Nucky Johnson?

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- And what's horseshoe?

What's the horseshoe?

- The horseshoe, okay.

So the horseshoe was an area in Jersey City that was gerrymandered, that they gerrymandered all the Irish into a shape like the horseshoe, I think it was down near Holland Tunnel.

And Frank Hague took responsibility to raise them up, and he hired the Irish people, and he did raise them up.

- Yeah.

But a lot more complex than that.

So, Frank, talk to us.

Frank Hague was known to be the boss of Hudson County.

He was the unquestioned mayor of Jersey City, and he did help a lot of people, but he was more complex than that by potentially skirting with the law.

Is that fair to say, Frank?

- Oh, I'd say that's fair to say.

Yeah.

- Talk about him as a personality.

- Well, you know, he grew up in the horseshoe, the shoe, and, you know, his mother gave birth to him on the kitchen table.

You know, he grew up, he was in gangs.

He, I think, got kicked outta grammar school after sixth grade and ran with gangs.

But I think he saw, it was a time when the Irish, it wasn't good for the Irish.

They put up the signs in the, you know, in the shop windows, "Help wanted".

"Irish need not apply".

But he could see that working the gangs wasn't gonna get him anywhere, but he could see the way politics worked.

And I think he saw that as, well, this is gonna be my ticket.

And I think he had a great talent for that.

You know, I like comparing him to someone like Magic Johnson or Larry Bird, you know, could see the whole basketball court.

And I think he saw politics that way, and he saw it as a great way to make a lot of money.

Of course, the way you had to go, you know, he had to do things for people in order to get elected.

So he did that as well.

- Along those lines, Margo, Frank Hague, not only the mayor of Jersey City and very good at politics, the art of politics, but many others who ran for statewide and national office would often seek Frank Hague's support.

Talk about that, please, Margo.

- Well, I'm only the playwright, so I'm not an authority on it.

But it sounds like he, like Frank said, Frank Hankey said, he understood how everything worked.

I mean, he got FDR elected, or at least that's what, you know.

- He sure did.

But Margo, go back.

I don't like that you said you're only the playwright.

Don't minimize yourself like that.

Let me ask you this, but what fascinated you to even do this and be the playwright and made this all happen?

What fascinates you or what fascinated and still fascinates you about a Frank Hague, please?

- Well, as far as a character to write about, you already mentioned at the beginning, but he was a complex character, so he's interesting to write about.

He wasn't like, you know, sometimes he was bad, sometimes he was good, but he'd get a lot done.

And he had his enemies.

He was a strong, you know, he was a thug, but he helped a lot of people.

So there was a lot of people.

And he, you know, had free healthcare for God's sake.

I mean, nobody has free healthcare, you know?

(Margo chuckles) So you know, he had really some good stuff but he was a mean guy sometimes, - Mean, talk about that, Frank.

You got this big smile on, he was a mean guy.

Talk about that, Frank.

- Well, you know, he, well, he was, I would say a bare knuckle politician.

And I mean that both literally and figuratively, because there were stories about him that, you know, that people would cross him, you know, he would punch him in the face and he was ruthless, you know, but that was also the world he grew up in.

There was also the political world he grew up in.

And I think because he, you know, there was a great deal of anger in the Irish community with the way they were treated as they got, you know, conditions were terrible there and they couldn't get jobs.

And he was kind of, you know, the, you know, the horseshoe against the world.

And he just, you know, that was the way the world he grew up in is the way the politics were.

And so he just played it real hard and better than most people.

- But along those lines, at a certain point and growing up in Newark at a very different time, let's just say I was led to understand and then experience as a very young man, some of the tension between those who were immigrants from Ireland and those who were immigrants from Italy.

So the Irish and Italian did not always get along.

That was the case in Jersey City, if I'm not mistaken.

And don't be saying to me again, you're only the playwright, Margo, there was stuff between Italian and Irish fighting for power.

Please talk about that, Margo.

- Well, it's interesting you wanna bring up the Italian Irish, because I lived near Pershing Field, and so I'd walk around there today, you know, and the locals would tell me stories.

Now, there's an Italian husband and an Irish wife.

Oh my God.

- Italian husband, Irish wife.

That's what's going on in this house too.

Go ahead.

- Right, and the thing is, she has her house because her grandfather got help from Hague, but her husband likes to make fun.

And I'm telling you, they had a little bit of a tiff, the two of them.

So in other words, why I'm bringing that up is, even today in Jersey City, people were still, after the play, people would mill about, they wanted to talk about it.

Tell me "My Uncle, he, you know, broke legs for Hague".

And I'm like, okay, but you know, everybody wanted to talk about him today.

So it's an interesting subject, you know.

- Yeah, I also think that I, because I was talking to Paul down the street, he was Italian and his family did very well under Hague.

So, you know, I think one of the things that Hague was able to do, he had complete support of the Irish, and he had support of a lot of Catholics, but he would play people off against each other.

And so if you crossed him, you know, the Italians weren't his favorite, but they were Catholics, so they were, you know, some of 'em were okay.

- Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you mentioned the Catholics, Frank Hague and the church.

He had relationships with very prominent, powerful religious figures in the Catholic church.

Margo, please.

- Well, one of the characters I did bring one Monsignor in, Shepherd.

I took dramatic license, of course.

But yes, they were in the pocket.

They were in his pocket, I'd say.

- Listen, I know we're we're coming outta New Jersey and you used the term, "In his pocket."

Could you please explain that for those who may not understand exactly what that means?

- There's one scene where the Monsignor is, you know, spouting about, and anyway, he's talking about what does the Bible have to say about how you should vote?

You know, and they would have meetings and the parishioners would all get a ham for Christmas.

And you know, there would always be the parishioners were being taken care of, you know.

- So Frank, along these lines, Hague connected to the church for genuinely spiritual religious reasons, or, and or, because it was smart politically, Frank?

- Well, it was culturally certainly a big part of it.

I think, you know, if you're gonna assign a percentage, I think it was more for practical reasons.

I mean, they were a space and they were a way to get the vote, you know, that you get the church on your side, that they're gonna go in the pulpit and they're gonna say, "Vote for Hague."

You know, he believes in us, he supports the church.

He bought this big, huge altar rail, you see before you, you know, and so it was both practical.

And I think he was, you know, he wasn't a drinker and he wasn't a womanizer.

So he was a bit of a, you know, a straight laced guy in as far as the moral issues went.

- Other than his criminal activities.

- Well, yeah.

- Oh yeah that.

Other than that, I just wanna be clear.

Margo, just let everybody know how they can find out more about board, excuse me, Boardwalk, "Horseshoe Empire," please.

(Margo chuckles) - Yeah, well, we do have still a Facebook page.

I think it's Horseshoe Empire.

- We'll put it on.

- We have an Instagram also, and we are trying, we have meetings with people in Jersey City currently to perhaps bring it back by popular demand.

- Great stuff.

Margo Hammond and Frank Hankey connected to, in the best sense of the word, "Horseshoe Empire."

Cannot thank you enough for talking about Frank, "I am the law", that's what he said, Hague.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

- We're once again joined by David Wildstein, who is editor of New Jersey Globe.

You're a historian, right, of politics?

I say this all the time.

You're obsessed.

- I love it, yeah, I love it.

- What the heck do you love about such a corrupt history of politics in this state, David?

- There are a lot of rogue individuals out there.

You know, and some say, for a brief period of my life, I was one of them.

- You were considered rogue.

- Yeah.

- Look under David Wildstein, Bridgegate, rogue, go ahead.

(Steve laughing) - It is what it is.

You gotta own it, right?

You have to, you know, that happened.

But I've been watching politics, I mean, I'm 62, and this is my 51st year.

And I've been watching it for a long time.

I worked in the State Senate when I was 12.

So I've had this front row seat, and I have always been captivated.

Just the same way that I'm captivated by the old New York Yankees.

It's the same thing.

Politics is a sport, and I love this sport.

- And I have so many framed pictures of Mickey Mantle.

My wife is like, "Look, you're not related to Mickey Mantle and he wasn't your father or your grandfather, stop it."

That's another story.

Okay, can we go from Mickey Mantle, the Yankees, to Jersey City?

We just did a whole segment on Frank Hague, Frank "I am the law" Hague in Jersey City, the mayor for many years, the political boss there.

Following up Hague, there was a mayor of Jersey City from 1949 to 1953, part of our "Remember Them" series with my colleague, Jacqui Tricarico, we talked to David about John V. Kenny.

Who the heck was John V. Kenny?

What was his relationship with Frank Hague?

And then, why did Kenny have a problem with the law?

- So Kenny is like so many people in politics.

He was one of Frank Hague's guys.

He was a ward leader in Jersey City.

And Frank Hague, as he stayed there too long, as is often the case, things caught up to him.

And he started falling out of favor.

Kenny was the guy who helped engineer Hague's ouster in order to seize power.

It's just a classic story of palace intrigue.

- But he was one of his guys, you just said, David?

- Rogue guy, rogue, they were all rogue.

- No, but you said he was one of his guys.

One of his own guys went against him?

- But yeah, and don't we see that all the time?

That's what happens is, you know, when you look at power in politics, and you know, you start outside the room, you just wanna get in the room.

Once you're in the room, you still along the wall and you wanna get to the table.

Once you're sitting at the table, you wanna be the guy at the head of the table.

So you have this constantly in New Jersey, especially in Hudson County, where once people get a taste of the power, they're looking at ways to move up.

And sometimes loyalty, especially in Hudson County, is fungible.

And that's what you had with John V. Kenny.

He helped get Frank Hague out of office.

Frank Hague, arguably, one of the most powerful political figures in the country.

- In the country.

- He refused to return his phone calls.

And Kenny saw the weakness and moved in and took over that organization.

- Okay, but he only serves as mayor, Kenny, serves as mayor from '49 to '53.

- Right, and then he was- - And then- - He was the boss.

He was the Hudson County Democratic chair.

He was the guy in Hudson County, if you wanted to be a councilman in Kearny or a judge, or you wanted to be a freeholder or a state legislator, John V. Kenny was the guy that made it happen.

- So hold on, let's be clear.

He wasn't the mayor anymore, but he was the party boss.

He was the guy.

David Wildstein did a segment with us on our "State of Affairs" series talking about party bosses and the party line, a whole different, not a different topic.

Did John V. Kenny control who got the Democratic Party line in Jersey City, Hudson County?

- 100%, alone- - You couldn't go against him.

- Collaterally.

Nobody else had any input at all but John V. Kenny.

- And if you weren't with Kenny and he didn't support you, who knows where you'd be on the ballot if you got on at all.

- That's right.

- Kenny serves four years, but then, Whelan.

Thomas Whelan becomes the mayor.

Or does Whelan beat a guy by the name of Gangemi?

- Well, Gangemi, it's a great New Jersey story, Steve.

Gangemi becomes the mayor.

He's elected mayor.

He, you know, born in Italy, son of immigrants.

They come over.

After he's mayor, he wants to go back to the family hometown.

Goes to a - - What?

- For a passport and they said, "You were never naturalized.

You're not an American citizen."

The parents never went through the process, and a federal judge removed Gangemi from office.

This was- - Jersey City elected a mayor who wasn't a citizen?

- That's correct.

That's correct.

And Gangemi never made peace with the fact that he got removed.

So Whelan- - Okay.

So where does Whelan come in?

- Whelan?

- Who's Thomas Whelan?

- Whelan came in as part of this change of characters when they were trying to figure out what to do after the Gangemi episode.

- Was Kenny a political, I don't like the word, I'll put puppet in quotes, was Kenny a political puppet for John V. Kenny?

- Yeah, well, Whelan- - Was Whelan, I apologize.

Was Whelan a puppet- - Whelan didn't do much- - For John V. Kenny?

- Without John Kenny okaying it.

- So when the heck do the feds come in?

The United States federal government, 1971 prosecution of John V. Kenny, of Thomas Whelan, and the so-called, is it the Jersey City Eight?

- Yeah, they were.

It was a whole- - What did they do?

- It was a kickback scheme.

- They stole money?

- They stole a lotta money.

They were running, by the way, and then, you know, this goes back to our old, you know, readings of George Washington Plunkitt.

- The Hudson Eight.

- Political science student.

- I apologize, go ahead.

- I mean, they were delivering excellent government services but they were skimming a huge amount of money off the top.

You know- - How?

- Frank Hague and Kenny, they had a desk in City Hall where they would push a button, and a drawer on the other side of the desk would pop out.

And the person they were meeting with would put the cash in the drawer, and he would pick the button, the drawer would come back in, and that's how the payoffs were made.

Eventually, what you had was, this was in the Nixon administration.

You had a Republican US Senator named Clifford Case who didn't like the Hudson bosses.

He appointed a group of US attorneys.

And these are all names that are familiar to you: Fred Lacey, Herb Stern, Jonathan- - These are tough prosecutors.

- Yeah, yeah and honest men, and they went after the Hudson guys.

And they got- - So who got convicted and went to jail?

- Kenny went to jail, Whelan went to jail, a bunch of 'em did.

- But Kenny only went for a short time.

Whelan did real time.

- He did, he did.

And Kenny was older.

He got out for health reasons.

You know, he claimed ill health and then went out and lived, you know, a few more years after he got out.

But- - But I've gotta ask you, we've got a minute left.

Is there something about, ironically, we interviewed (laughing) current Jersey City mayor, Steve Fulop, who's running for governor as we speak in 2025.

Pre-, I don't know at what point, pre-Fulop, pre-whomever, is there something about being a mayor of Jersey City or political boss in Hudson County that attracts certain folks or has that time passed?

- I think the time has passed, and I think in the old days, not defending 'em at all, that was the culture.

That's the way it was done.

And nobody really thought it was wrong back then.

- Wow, David Wildstein is the editor of New Jersey Globe, one of our media partners.

And he is obsessed with political history in the state, and that's why we (laughing) keep turning to him.

He doesn't only talk about political corruption or politicians that did bad things.

He talks about all kinds of people.

Thank you, David, appreciate it.

- Thank you.

- You got it, I'm Steve Adubato, that's David Wildstein.

For my colleague, Jacqui Tricarico, and our team at "Remember Them" and "One-on-One," we thank you for watching.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Celebrating 30 years in public broadcasting.

Funding has been provided by PSEG Foundation.

NJM Insurance Group.

RWJBarnabas Health.

Let’s be healthy together.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

The North Ward Center.

New Jersey Institute of Technology.

And by The Russell Berrie Foundation.

Promotional support provided by The New Jersey Business & Industry Association.

And by BestofNJ.com.

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