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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change Presidents in this country is by voting.

- A quartet is already a jawn, it’s just The New Jawn.

- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I mean what other country sends comedians over to embedded military to make them feel better.

- People call me 'cause they feel nobody's paying attention.

_ It’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Remember Them."

I'm Steve Adubato with my colleague, Jacqui Tricarico, our Executive Producer.

Jacqui, we are talking to a great author, you see his book over my left shoulder, Nelson Johnson, the author of "Boardwalk Empire" that would not have been an HBO series if it were not for Nelson Johnson.

Also a former judge.

The history of Atlantic City, Jacqui, you saw that interview.

We did it already as we're taping.

What the heck did you take from it, and what should people be paying attention to?

- Well, Steve, you and I have both bonded over our love for that HBO show, "Boardwalk Empire," and for me, I'm from South Jersey, the real South Jersey, right outside of Atlantic City.

So, there's so much to learn about that part of the state.

And we hear some really interesting facts from Nelson, but really focusing a bit more on the prohibition era.

And for me, sometimes when I think Atlantic City and the history of Atlantic City, one thing that always pops up in my mind is the Miss America pageant.

Something that was started during that time period as well to bring in tourists outside of the regular, you know, the summer schedule when things weren't so busy to bring more tourists in during that off season.

And it was a staple there for so many years.

- But here's the thing that struck me.

One of the things that Nelson Johnson said, and we talked a lot about Nucky Johnson, not related, but in the series, he's known as Nucky Thompson.

What struck me was he was talking about how Nucky developed all that power of being a corrupt political figure, but he was beloved in Atlantic City by the people of Atlantic City.

Why do you think that was?

- Well, he was able to gain respect, and that was the most important thing.

He often didn't need to use force or violence for a long period of time because he gained the respect of so many.

So people fell in line, people listened to him, when he was talking, you were listening and doing what he asked you to do.

So that's something that made him really unique during that time period.

- I'm not sure he asked in certain cases, but that's another story, Jacqui, The casino, the casinos legalized gambling in the late 1970s in Atlantic City.

And we also talked about Donald Trump coming to Atlantic City.

There's a chapter in the book called "The Donald Comes to Town."

Fascinating.

President Trump has a history in Atlantic City, which Judge Johnson talked about.

- He sure does.

He sure does.

And we learn more about that from Nelson coming up next.

- Look at Jacqui ducking that.

I picked that up.

That was good, that was fine.

So this is not a political show, "Remember Them" is not political.

It's about history.

It's about the history of people who have passed, and also places like Atlantic City.

For Jacqui, myself, we're going to see Nelson Johnson, author of that great book over my shoulder, "Boardwalk Empire," let's check it out.

(people chattering) - Mr. Mayor, fellow members of the City Council, in less than two hours, liquor will be declared illegal by decree of the distinguished gentlemen of our nation's Congress.

(bell ringing) (dramatic music) To those beautiful, ignorant bastards.

- [All] Here, here.

- [Nelson Van Alden Voiceover] January 16th, 8:03 p.m. Johnny Torrio, meeting with Nucky Thompson.

- Mr. Torrio.

- [Voiceover] Big Jim Colosimo, Arnold Rothstein and Charlie Luciano.

- Jimmy Darmody.

- Al Capone.

(thug screaming) (glass crunching) - You guys gonna get into the liquor business too?

(upbeat music) - Your friend from New York, he just took us for 90 grand.

- You can't be half a gangster, Nucky, not anymore.

(upbeat music) - This entire city, the Sodom will be cleansed all at once.

(fire raging) (upbeat music) (gun firing) (upbeat music) - We are honored to be joined by a great author.

He's Nelson Johnson, historian, author of "Boardwalk Empire."

You've heard of that, right?

The book over my left shoulder.

"The Birth, High Times, "and Corruption of Atlantic City."

Mr. Johnson, thank you so much for joining us again.

- Happy to be here, Steve.

- Let's do this.

We'll talk about so many aspects of not just "Boardwalk Empire" and what made it a great show, and how it came from the book, but also the history of Atlantic City.

Why are you so fascinated with the history, the culture, the corruption, the high times, et cetera, and decline of Atlantic City?

- Well, it's important to understand that historically speaking, corruption in Atlantic City was organic.

And by organic, what I mean is that it was a necessity.

Early Atlantic City basically had a 12, if they were lucky, a 14 week window in which to make a buck.

And so whatever the visitors wanted, that's what they had to have.

And a lot of that entertainment that the visitors wanted, didn't necessarily comply with the law.

At the very beginning of the book, I quote a gentleman who I interviewed many times, had to persist to get him to talk to me.

And at one point he said to me, "Nels, if the people who came to town "had wanted Bible readings, "we'd have given them that.

"But no one ever asked for Bible readings.

"They wanted booze, broads and gambling.

"So that's what we gave them."

So to provide booze, broads, and gambling, there's a lot of instances in which the law has to be ignored.

And Atlantic City was really good at that, because of it in those days, sort of a remote place.

And, they had no difficulty thumbing their nose at prohibition.

Prohibition never really happened in Atlantic City, because prior to that, as you may recall from history, there were things called "The Bishop's Laws."

And the Bishop's Law said, "No booze on Sunday."

And Atlantic City's response was, "What do you mean no booze on Sunday?

"That's our busiest day of the week."

So for about 20 years, Atlantic City was ignoring the Bishop's laws.

And then when prohibition rolled out, they just continued doing what they wanted to do seven days a week instead of one.

- We'll talk about the mayors of Atlantic City and the history of corruption, but it's not just the mayors.

Nucky Johnson, in the series, "Nucky Thompson," for obvious, I don't know what reasons, but I'm sure there's legality involved.

And by the way, I should also make it clear that Nelson Johnson is a former judge.

So lemme try this.

What made Nucky Johnson so popular, well liked, loved in Atlantic City, and a thug to others?

- Well, locally, he really was a benevolent boss.

And he never had to use violence because he had the, he had this, the community behind him.

I mean, my favorite story, it never got into the book was, was something that an older woman came up to me one night after I made a presentation at St. Michael's Hall."

And she said, "When I was a girl, my family had a laundry.

"And something happened between my father and Nucky, "and the next thing you know, "people are coming in, "and they're taking their clean laundry, and they're not leaving any dirty laundry behind."

And after about 10 days, they have no business.

And so the wife, you know, hammered her husband and said, "You gotta go see Mr.

Johnson."

And within another week, the business started coming back.

Now I tell people, that's power.

Power is not ever having to get violent.

And Nucky rarely was violent.

- Well where did his power come from Nelson?

Where did his power come from?

- His power came from being able to keep everybody happy in the off-season.

- Yeah.

But it also, because he controlled law enforcement, he controlled the judges, he had relationships with organized crime figures.

All of that combined with his personality.

Would Nucky have ever been what he became if it were not for the Volstead Act, and prohibition outlawing alcohol?

- Prohibition definitely boosted his career.

They viewed it as a real, look, Convention Hall on the boardwalk would not have been built without a prohibition.

They had so many people wanting to come to Atlantic City because they knew they could drink, and party, and also discuss business.

That's what led to the construction of Conventional Hall on the Boardwalk.

- But here's the other thing about Nucky that, in reading about him in the book.

And by the way, the book is accurate.

The series on HBO is great, but let's just say I'm not sure they're, it's not totally consistent with the book.

Is that a fair assessment?

- It's fictional history.

- Okay.

Yeah.

(Steve laughs) Yeah.

There's some of that in politics too, but I'll leave that alone right now.

So let's try this.

Nucky Johnson is this powerful figure who controls so much in Atlantic City, booze, prostitution, businesses, everyone's kicking back to him, et cetera, et cetera.

What brought Nucky down?

- What brought him down at the, at the end of the day, an income tax audit, like so many other, you know, corrupt politicians.

He didn't pay enough in the way of taxes.

They got 'em that way.

But Nucky's power really didn't, keep in mind, it went beyond simply Atlantic City and Atlantic County.

He had power in Trenton, and he had, he had power, which I never really fully appreciated until even after the writing of this book.

He had power with his ability to do deals with Frank Hague.

- Frank Hague, the Democratic mayor of Jersey City.

- Correct.

- Nucky, the republican leader in Atlantic City, Atlantic County.

What did, why the heck were they able to do business together, given their different political parties?

- They were able to do business because there were occasions when, when Nucky would get together people from Cape May County, Atlantic County, Ocean County.

He had, had people that he could persuade to vote his way.

He could get Republican votes to sometimes stop Republicans from steam rolling Democrats in North Jersey.

And Frank Hague and Nucky did business on a regular basis.

- Lemme ask you this.

There's a chapter in the book called, "Plantation by the Sea."

It's chapter three in the book, correct?

- Fascinated by this.

The African American community in Atlantic City, historically segregated from wherever the money was being made, even before casinos became legal, which we'll talk about in the late seventies.

We'll talk about that in a minute.

The history of the African American community in Atlantic City.

Please share, Nelson.

- That was the most difficult chapter to write.

It eventually resulted in a second book called, "The North Side."

But what I understood as I was researching my history, is that no one had ever addressed the indispensable role of African American labor in the resort economy.

You had a town, that for a 10, 12 week period, when they were hosting conventions and all sorts of things, in the early, in the early teens and twenties, you had a situation where a third of a million people on any given day could be visiting the town.

Now how do you do that without a good labor force?

More than 90% of the hotel workforce was African American.

And I've, and I have, you know, photos all over the place in my second book, which shows that, that you could have a work staff of 50 people, one white guy telling 'em what to do.

And they were very able workers.

Many of them were actually recruited from the south, freed slaves, and children or freed slaves were recruited to come north.

I saw a copy of a hand bill, but I never could get my hands on it, 'cause it wasn't for sale, saying to people, "Come to Atlantic City."

And so, yes, people from the south, after the Civil War were recruited to come to Atlantic City.

- But it was like a plant- but it had plantation like characteristics.

- Yes.

And no question about it.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

Donald Trump, the chapter is literally called, "The Donald Comes to Town," chapter 12.

I read it twice over to try to understand.

What was the deal when Donald Trump came to Atlantic City, A, and B, Mr. Johnson, do you believe Donald Trump ever really expected to succeed?

Loaded question.

Or did he have an exit strategy the entire time?

- Well, I don't know what was in his head in terms of what he was expecting to, well, I'm assuming he expected to succeed or he wouldn't have done it.

- But the bankruptcy came pretty quick.

- He had, look, he filed several bankruptcies.

And a lot of people, a lot of people got hurt, got hurt in a very big way.

- Explain that to folks.

How did people get hurt by Donald Trump filing for bankruptcy several times with his multiple casinos in Atlantic City?

Explain that to folks.

Many of whom, by the way, voted for Donald Trump.

Talk about those working people.

- When he, when he took the Taj Mahal off the hands of Merv Griffin, and completed construction of it, he promised everybody, "Don't worry.

Work with me on this, "and you'll get paid on the back end."

There were carpet companies, at least two or three.

There were tile companies, at least two or three.

There was a client of mine who had a glass business.

You had, you had union workers through the, through the painting union and whatnot.

They got paid nothing.

He stiffed 'em.

- Stiffed 'em.

- And people were put out of business, in plain words.

I mean, I'll say the one name that it was a great family business for many years, Alani Clay Glass.

And I represented them.

And, they're gone.

- As a lawyer, you represented them.

- Prior to Trump, they were in the town for about 75 years.

After Trump, they were gone.

- He just, he just said, "I'm going bankrupt.

"I don't have the money.

"I'm not paying you."

- Correct.

- Do you think that was the plan all along?

- Ah, many people think that.

I don't know that, but many people think that some of the lawyers that I spoke to, who represented clients in the bankruptcy proceedings, some of them thought that he could, look, the bankruptcy came so swiftly after the Taj Mahal opened.

It was a pre-packaged bankruptcy, is how lawyers define it, not how I'd define it, because I don't, you know, I don't do bankruptcy, don't understand bankruptcy.

But what I do know is he hurt a lot of people.

And payments that were supposed to be made to the union members' benefit funds and healthcare funds, they weren't made.

So, people got hurt.

They got hurt badly.

- The casinos become, the casinos, legalized gambling happens in the late seventies, in New Jersey it becomes legal.

To what degree did the casinos help boost the economy of Atlantic City, or, or both?

Or accelerate the decline of Atlantic City?

- Oh my.

They certainly did boost the economy, for I'd say 20 years.

But beginning almost 20 years ago, things started to decline because of competition.

Because gambling is being, I mean, there were many communities that were in the same desperate straits that Atlantic City was, and they said, "Well, why, why not try gambling?

"Why not try gambling?"

And that, and that did hurt Atlantic City.

There's no question about it.

And Atlantic City, candidly, I think they're gonna be really be struggling if gambling, when/if, when Atlantic City is gonna be facing competition from New York, that's a very big problem for Atlantic City.

And a lot of local people recognize that.

Be a very big problem.

- Over the years as a broadcaster, I've interviewed many mayors of Atlantic City before they were indicted, convicted, and went to jail.

Why the heck does it seem, and if I'm wrong, as an expert, you'll push back, as a historian, you'll push back, correct me.

Why does it seem like a disproportionate number of mayors of Atlantic City wind up engaged in corrupt activities?

- Because everyone thinks they're going to be the next boss.

And so the- - The next Nucky?

- Yeah.

- The next Hap Farley, who was a Republican leader who came after Nucky Johnson, they're gonna be the next boss?

So what?

The rules don't apply to them?

- You got it.

You got it.

There are, and I tell people all the time, as small as Atlantic City is, it has an out-sized presence.

But what you have to keep in mind about the local politics is, that they never developed a traditional means for the acquisition, exercise, and transfer of power.

'Cause everybody, I worked in City Hall long enough to know that there was at least a half a dozen people in that building that thought, "I oughta be boss."

And so, and so everybody's, everybody's got their knives out, and willing to put it in somebody else's back to see if they can climb their way up the ladder.

And once they're there, sometimes they do pretty stupid things.

Now, there are, there have been mayors who have gone to jail, who fell on the sword, so to speak, for the entire organization when they could have brought the organization down.

- What organization are you talk... Because there have been democratic mayors and republican mayors who have had issues with the law.

So what organization are you referring to, Nelson?

- Well, when I'm referring to "the organization," I'm referring to the Farley organization.

- So, I skipped this.

My bad.

Describe who Hap Farley was, and why Farley mattered, particularly when there were only 21 state senators in the state of New Jersey, one for each county.

And Hap Farley, if I'm not mistaken, was a senator in Atlantic County.

- Correct.

He was the senator of Atlantic County.

And through his seniority over the years, he gained a lot of influence in how things got done in Trenton.

He was able to take care of the other South Jersey senators, and he could consistently have seven votes, which could, which would really disrupt things in the Senate.

- Seven out of 21.

- Yeah.

That's what I'm saying.

He could, if he was of a mind to disrupt, he could.

And Farley made deals with Hudson County as well.

That happened, and with, well not Essex County really, but Hudson County.

But, I met with a gentleman whose last name is Stark, I can't remember his first name.

He was counsel to Governor Hughes.

And he said to me- - Governor Richard J. Hughes, who served as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court as well.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry, Nelson.

- Correct.

You have the right Richard Hughes.

And, Mr. Stark said to me, "I sat in on more than one meeting between "the senator from Atlantic County, "and the governor, and Farley's agenda came first."

And if we ran out of time, we talked about the governor's agenda at the next meeting.

Farley had that kind of clout.

But also you, Richard Hughes was one savvy, was one savvy politician.

- Lemme try this.

Got a couple minutes left.

The mob,and Atlantic City.

How influential were they?

Because I know when the Casino Control Act was passed, I know when gambling became legal in New Jersey, the obsession was to keep the mob, the mafia out of Atlantic City.

Was that a success?

- No.

They kept, they kept the mob out of the casinos, that's for sure.

But they didn't keep the mob out of the local union, Local 54.

They infiltrated that, and the, and the federal courts had to appoint a monitor to oversee things.

- Those are the workers in the casinos.

- Correct.

Correct.

But did anybody in the mob get a casino license?

No.

Did anybody in the mob have influence over how casinos were operated?

I don't think so.

But did they have influence over how the Locals 54 Union was operated?

Yeah, they did, for about, I'm gonna say about a five or six year period, they had too much influence.

And that's when the federal courts came down on top of 'em.

- Could A.C. have ever been Vegas of the east?

Could it ever, could it, did it have the infrastructure where it was, all the factors?

Could it ever have been Vegas?

- The answer is, yes.

And why I, again, putting aside the fact that, you know, the economy tends to be seasonal because it's a seaside resort.

What I saw over the years, was so many missed opportunities that it really, really genuinely disturbed me.

I mean, one was an effort by a gentleman that I knew who tried to start an airline, and he couldn't get a commitment from each of the casinos.

They were all like looking over each other's shoulders.

He couldn't get a commitment from anybody to book a certain number of seats, each time there was a flight to say, Pittsburgh, a flight to Boston, a flight to...

Boardwalk Airways had a very good business plan, and I'm not the only one that thought that.

The problem is, couldn't, no one could get the casinos to think that.

I mean, that was a major missed opportunity.

The other thing that disturbs me about Atlantic City, is they don't know enough about their own past.

What made Atlantic City special in the past, is what I refer to as "spectacle," which was some events that would draw people.

- You mean the horse that, the diving horse into the water, that kind of thing?

- Yeah.

But that's just one of the kind of things.

- Just one of 'em.

- Atlantic City had many spectacles.

You know, they had, they had dog races, they had... boxing matches, boxing matches were a draw, but it fizzled out after about seven or eight years.

They just, they just gave away the air show, which really disturbs me.

It's gonna be in Wildwood next year.

- Hey, Nelson, Nelson Johnson, I cannot thank you enough.

Not just for joining us to put the history into perspective, and add your perspective on what Atlantic City was, where it is, and people can decide for themselves what the future of it is, but for this book, which spawned one of the greatest series ever.

I mean, Nelson, I can't thank you enough.

And I know I'm thanking you for an awful lot of people who appreciate your work.

- Well, you're welcome.

- Thank you, Mr. Johnson.

- Good talking to you as always.

- I'm Steve Adubato.

the history of Atlantic City, from the one who knows it the best, Nelson Johnson.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by PSEG Foundation.

NJM Insurance Group.

RWJBarnabas Health.

Let’s be healthy together.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

United Airlines.

New Jersey Institute of Technology.

And by The Russell Berrie Foundation.

Promotional support provided byNew Jersey Globe.

And by New Jersey Monthly.

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