>> ERIC: FORMER MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF TONY BOUZA DIED EARLIER THIS WEEK AT THE AGE OF 94.

BOUZA LED THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT IN THE 1980S.

HIRED TO REFORM THE DEPARTMENT, BOUZA WAS MEDIA SAVVY, APPEARING ON NATIONAL AND LOCAL NEWS PROGRAMS ON A REGULAR BASIS, INCLUDING HERE ON TWIN CITIES PBS.

BACK IN 1983, AS THE MINNEAPOLIS CITY COUNCIL WAS DECIDING IF THEY SHOULD APPOINT BOUZA TO A SECOND TERM, HE APPEARED ON THE KTCA PROGRAM "TURNING POINT," WHERE HIS SUPPORTERS AND CRITICS JOINED HIM ON THE SET AND A STUDIO AUDIENCE HAD THE CHANCE TO ASK TOUGH QUESTIONS OF THE CHIEF.

HERE'S A SHORT EXCERPT FROM THAT SHOW, WHEN BOUZA IS ADDRESSING CONCERNS ABOUT POLICE TREATMENT OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND THE GAY COMMUNITY.

>> WE DO HAVE OFFICERS IN UNIFORM WHO ARE UNFIT TO WEAR THE UNIFORM, WHO ARE NOT PROTECTORS OF OUR SOCIETY BUT A MENACE AND OUGHT TO BE SEPARATED FROM SOCIETY.

>> CHIEF BOUZA, CAN YOU FORESEE ANYTHING STANDING IN YOUR WAY OF CARRYING OUT YOUR OWN PERSONAL COMMITMENT TO SEEING SOCIAL JUSTICE?

>> WELL, I'M GOING TO BE TRYING.

I THINK THAT THE GAY AND BLACK COMMUNITIES HAVE VERY RIGHT TO BE WARY OF THE POLICE.

EVERYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE ARE PROBLEMS AND A LOT OF THOSE PROBLEMS CENTER AROUND THE POLICE.

WE ONLY HAVE TO LOOK TO MIAMI TO SEE OR LOS ANGELES, CHICAGO, NEW YORK, AND I HOPE THAT WE'RE IMPROVING THE RELATIONS HERE.

I THINK WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL TO PROMOTE SOCIAL JUSTICE TO UNPOPULAR MINORITIES AND BLACKS AND GAYS REALLY ARE UNPOPULAR MINORITIES AND IT'S A THING WE HAVE TO FIGHT OVER.

>> IS THAT A MOUNTAIN THAT ANY CHIEF IN THE UNITED STATES CAN CLIMB?

>> EVERY CHIEF MUST TRY AND ALL TOO FEW EVEN ATTEMPT IT.

>> ERIC: JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT THE LEGACY OF TONY BOUZA, MICHAEL LANSING, A HISTORY PROFESSOR FROM AUGSBURG UNIVERSITY AND THE CO-CREATOR OF "OVERPOLICED AND UNDERPROTECTED," A PUBLIC HISTORY PROJECT THAT EXPLORES THE HISTORY OF POLICING IN THE TWIN CITIES.

PROFESSOR, YOU LABELED CHIEF BOUZA AS A MAN OF CONTRADICTIONS.

WHY?

>> INDEED.

INDEED, I THINK THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO CAPTURE BOUZA'S SIZABLE PRESENCE IN PUBLIC LIFE IN EMERGENCIES AND MINNESOTA FOR DECADES.

HE'S A PERSON THAT PEOPLE TAKE IN SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS AND HAVE SO MANY DIFFERENT OPINIONS ON SIMPLY BECAUSE HE EMBODIES CONTRADICTIONS.

>> Eric: WHAT ARE SOME EXAMPLES?

>> WELL, THE FIRST ONE THAT COMES TO MIND IS THAT HE'S NOTED CRITIC OF POLICING.

WHEN HE'S IN NEW YORK, WHEN HE'S IN MINNEAPOLIS, AFTER HE RETIRES FROM THE HEAD JOB IN MINNEAPOLIS, HE IS CONSTANTLY TALKING ABOUT ALL THE PROBLEMS IN POLICING, BOTH IN MINNEAPOLIS AND ELSEWHERE.

HE ALSO S A SELF-DESCRIBED COP-LOVER.

HE IS DEEPLY, DEEPLY COMMITTED TO POLICING AND, IN FACT, IS VERY FOCUSED -- HE ONCE CALLED HIMSELF A LOVING CRITIC OF POLICING SO THERE IS A CONTRADICTION, HOW DO WE MAKE SENSE OF THAT?

>> Cathy: ALSO CALLED SOME COPS THUMPERS, HE KIND THAT PHASE AND STILL LOVED OPS.

>> YEAH, SO ANOTHER CONTRADICTION THAT COMES OUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT BOUZA USING THE TERM "TEMPER" IS THAT HE COINS THAT IN 1980 TO DESCRIBE MINNEAPOLIS COPS WHO ARE ENGAGED IN PROBLEMATIC USE OF FORCE BUT HE'S ALSO SOMEONE WHO IN PRINT AND IN INTERVIEWS WILL DESCRIBE THE NECESSITY FOR POLICE VIOLENCE.

SO THIS IS A PERSON WHO, AGAIN, YOU CAN TAKE ANY NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> Eric: HE AND HIS SPOUSE WERE PRETTY LIBERAL FOLKS.

DID HE CARRY THAT OVER TO RELATIONS WITH THE BLACK AND GUY COMMUNITIES?

>> HE'S PROBABLY THE MOST LIB BRAHAM POLICE CHIEF IN THE UNITED STATES N THE 1980s AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS HE IS EEL ON NIGHTLINE AND 2020 AND SPEAKING HIS MINDS ABOUT ALL THESE ISSUES.

THAT SAID, HE HAS AT BEST DEEPLY TROUBLED RELATIONSHIPS WITH LGBTQIA COMMUNITIES, WITH INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES, WITH BLACK COMMUNITIES IN THE CITY, BECAUSE OF HIS OTHER COMMITMENTS.

AGAIN, BECAUSE OF THESE CONTRADICTIONS.

>> Cathy: INTERESTING, BUT HE REALLY DID KNOW HOW TO USE THE MEDIA WELL.

>> WELL, HE'S VERY SAVVY, NO QUESTION ABOUT HOW SAVVY HE IS, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT BOUZA AS SOMEONE WHO'S ALWAYS GETTING HIMSELF INTO ONTROVERSIES BUT THERE IS A LOT OF DELIBERATION THERE.

>> Cathy: WHY DO YOU THINK THAT WAS?

>> WELL, I THINK HE HAD A LONG EXPERIENCE IN NEW YORK BEFORE COMING TO MINNEAPOLIS, BOTH AS A STREETS COP AND AS A MEMBER OF THE SPECIAL SERVICES DIVISION WHICH WAS AN INTELLIGENCE UNIT IN HE 1950s AND 1960s THAT ACTUALLY MONITORED AND SURVEILLED CIVIL RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS, FEMINIST ORGANIZATIONS, AND THEN OF COURSE HE WENT INTO LEADERSHIP IN THE NEW YORK P.D.

SO HE ALSO UNDERSTOOD NEWSPAPERS, POLITICIANS AND POLITICS AND I THINK THAT WAS A POTENT COMBINATION.

>> Eric: REFRESH OUR MEMBER RYE ON HIS SUSPENSION, WAS IT '85, HE SAID WITH SOMETHING ABOUT THE CITY COUNCIL?

>> DON FRAZIER AS MAYOR HAD BROUGHT HIM IN TO DE-MISSOURI SIZE IT IS MOST POLITICIZED DEPARTMENTS IN THE COUNTRY AND BOUZA WAS ABLE TO DO ALL KIND OF THINGS TO DE-POLITICIZE THE DOESN'T BUT IN 1985, HE REFERS TO A CITY COUNCIL PERSON AS, QUOTES, CHARLIE STENVIG IN DRAG.

AND THAT GETS THE SUSPENSION FROM MAYOR FRAZIER.

IN FACT, HOWEVER, HE TAKES IT.

HE DOESN'T REALLY EVER CRITIQUE MAYOR FRAZIER.

IT'S CLEAR THAT AS MUCH OF A MAVERICK AS HE WAS, HERE'S ANOTHER CONTRADICTION, IN FACT, HE WAS READY TO DEFER TO HIS BOSS.

>> Cathy: WHICH, AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT SHOULD SURPRISE US, RITE?

I KNOW THAT IS A CONTRADICTION BUT BEING IN THE POLICE HIERARCHY, YOU WOULD FOLLOW YOUR BOSS, RIGHT?

>> YOU WOULD HOPE SO AND THAT'S WHAT HE DOES BUT IN FACT THAT'S NOT TRUE OF EVERY CHIEF IN MINNEAPOLIS HISTORY.

>> Eric: POLICE UNION RELATIONS WITH THE CHIEF.

>> DEEPLY, DEEPLY, DEEPLY PROBLEMATIC.

A BIG GAP BETWEEN BOUZA AND THE POLICE UNION AND, IN FACT, SOME ARGUE, I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE POLICE UNION BECOMES A POTENT CENTER FOR POLITICS IN THE CITY AGAIN BECAUSE A DISUNITED FORCE BECOMES UNITED IN ITS DISLIKE AMONG THE RANK AND FILE FOR BOUZA AND THAT MOVES FROM THE DEPARTMENT INTO THE POLICE UNION.

>> Cathy: HE WAS BROUGHT INTO MINNEAPOLIS FOR PECIFIC REASONS.

WAS HE TRULY A REFORMER?

>> HE IS A REFORMER BUT THE YES IS WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING REFORMED?

AGAIN, THE QUESTION OF RACIALIZED POLICING IS SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY BECOMES A DEEPER AND GREATER PROBLEM AS HIS TIME IN OFFICE GOES ON.

>> Eric: LEGACY?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S THESE CONTRADICTIONS THAT MAKE HIM LARGER THAN LIFE, RIGHT?

AND WHY SO MANY PEOPLE IN TOWN HAVE THESE STORIES ABOUT TONY BOUZA, AND DON'T FORGET THAT, IN FACT, BECAUSE OF HIS APPEAR ONCE ON THE 197 DOCUMENTARY CALLED THE POLICE TAPES, KIND OF CINEMA VERITE, SOME ARGUE HE'S THE INSPIRATION FOR THE CAPTAIN ON "HILL STREET BLUES."

>> Cathy: REALLY!

I HAD NO IDEAS.

BEFORE YOU GO, I WANT TO GO BACK TO HIS POLITICAL SAVVY.

HE WAS KIND OF A POLITICAL ANIMAL.

COULD YOU GIVE US MORE EXAMPLES OF THAT, PERHAPS?

>> WELL, I THINK HE UNDERSTOOD THAT WHAT HE SAID MATTERED, AND I THINK HE WAS CAREFUL TO USE CONVERSATIONS WITH COMMUNITY GROUPS, CONVERSATIONS WITH REPORTERS, CONVERSATIONS IN THE NATIONAL LAW ENFORCEMENT COMMUNITY BECAUSE HE WAS AN ACTIVE RESEARCHER AND SUPPORTED NATIONAL RESEARCH PROJECTS AND ACTUALLY WAS WRITING FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT JOURNALS, KIND OF PROFESSIONAL MAGAZINES.

HE UNDERSTOOD THAT THESE WERE ALL WAYS IN WHICH IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT FOR HIM TO ARTICULATE A VISION FOR POLICING, BOTH FOR THE CITY AND FOR HIS POTENTIAL FUTURE.

>> Eric: HE WAS VERY SMART AND SEEMINGLY VERY WELL-EDUCATED AND WELL-READ.

BUT HE DIDN'T SEEM TO -- DID HE LORDS IT OVER FOLKS THAT I'M SMARTER -- I'M THE SMARTEST GUY IN THE ROOM OR HOW WERE HIS RELATIONS IN GENERAL?

>> I THINK HE WAS VERY PERSONABLE, THAT'S CLEAR WHEN YOU SEE MEDIA CLIPS FROM THE 1970s OR '80s, IT'S CLEAR HE IS A PEOPLE PERSON.

HE'S VERY SHARP AND WELL-EDUCATED ATTENTION YOU SUGGESTED AND I'M SURE THAT TURNS SOME PEOPLE OFF.

>> Cathy: THE STREET RELATIONS, GOING BACK TO THE PROBLEMATIC RELATIONSHIPS WITH IT IS BIPoC AND LGBTQ COMMUNITIES, YOU THINK WORKING IN NEW YORK CITY WONDERING, HIS EXPERIENCE IN NEW YORK CITY, DID THAT COLOR HIS RELATIONSHIPS WITH BIPoC COMMUNITIES OR WHAT WAS BEHIND IT, DO YOU THINK?

>> IT'S THE FACT THAT HE CAN RECOGNIZE CLASSISM AND SEGREGATION AS PROBLEMS IN AMERICAN SOCIETY AND HE'S ARTICULATING THAT PUBLICLY IN THE 1970s AS AN ASSISTANT POLICE CHIEF IN NEW YORK BUT WHEN HE'S ACTUALLY A POLICE CHIEF HERE IN MINNEAPOLIS, HE IS SO COMMITTED TO POLICING AND SO CERTAIN FORMS OF LAW AND ORDER THAT THERE'S AUTOMATICALLY GOING TO BE TENSION.

>> Eric: DIFFERENT ERA THEN BUT DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE F HOW HE WOULD HAVE FARED IN THE MODERN WORLD?

>> HARD TO IMAGINE A CHIEF IN 2023 SITTING THERE ON A STAGE FOR A PUBLIC TELEVISION PROGRAM WITH SOME OF HIS BIGGEST DETRACTSORS.

>> Eric: BUT HE FELT HE COULD HANDLE HIMSELF VERBALLY.

>> AND IF YOU WATCH THE REST OF, THAT HE DOES.

HE DOES.

>> Cathy: YES,