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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change Presidents in this country is by voting.

- A quartet is already a jawn, it’s just The New Jawn.

- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I mean what other country sends comedians over to embedded military to make them feel better.

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-_ It’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato with Jacqui Tricarico.

This is Sports - no, this is... 'Cause that's how they say it, Jacqui, but this is not SportsCenter.

It is Remember Them.

Jacqui Tricarico, our EP, executive producer and co-anchor.

Jacqui, we kick off the program with a compelling interview with our longtime friend Rick Thigpen who talks about whom?

- So he talks about Garret Hobart.

That was the 24th Vice President of the United States.

He served from 1887 until his death in 1899.

And then second up we talk about - - Well hold on, what does Hobart have to do with New Jersey?

- I mean he was in New Jersey politics before that.

He also was born in Long Branch.

He was a Rutgers college graduate.

On the New Jersey Assembly, he was - - He was the speaker of the assembly.

He was the president of the senate.

He was a power broker.

How the heck...

I'm curious - - A lot of things.

- When I heard he was on, he ran for Vice, so 24th Vice - how does that happen?

Thigpen talks about that too.

It's an interesting story.

- Yeah, yeah, and then you also talk with Rick Thigpen about Senator Harrison Williams.

He served on the US Senate from 1959 to 1982.

But there was something that happened during his time that he ended up having to resign.

That was Abscam.

It was a sting operation done by the FBI.

You talk about it briefly with Rick, but describe what that was for us because Abscam, a lot of people don't know what that means.

- Why are you asking me like I was involved in Abscam?

- You know!

(laughs) You know this history.

- So it was 1982.

In fact the FBI had, I don't know why they did this, but the part about Williams that's interesting is the FBI decided that there were politicians in New Jersey who could be corrupted, bribed.

And they - - No!

Not New Jersey, Steve!

Not New Jersey!

That doesn't happen here.

- Yes!

Yes!

And they met in Atlantic City and other places.

And they posed as Arab sheikhs.

- Wild.

- They had money stuffed in envelopes and briefcases and apparently, not even allegedly because it happened, Harrison Williams as a US senator, distinguished senator, took the money.

He was about to be expelled from the US Senate.

Resigned in 1982.

And resigned in disgrace after serving all those years.

'59 to '82.

- Yeah, Rick talks about - - And the rest is history.

- Sorry Steve, I was just gonna say Rick talks about he kind of blamed part of it on alcoholism.

It sounded like that was part of his fall from being a legislative leader.

Too much alcohol led to some of those behaviors supposedly.

- And Rick Thigpen also puts in context Harrison Williams' career and some of the positive things he did.

Which were clearly, appropriately so, tainted by taking that money in the sting operation called Abscam.

For Remember Them, I'm Steve Adubato.

That's Jacqui Tricarico.

On the back end we'll talk about Senator Ron Rice.

The late great Senator Rice.

But now, Harrison Williams, but first up, Garret Hobart.

- We are honored once again to be joined by our good friend, Rick Thigpen, Senior Vice President of Corporate Citizenship at PSEG.

Good to see you, Rick.

- Hi, Steve, how you doing?

- Doing great; hey, it's because of you, Mr. Thigpen, that we're talking about Garrett Hobart, who was the Vice President of the United States, came from New Jersey, because we were having an offline conversation about "Remember Them," which you helped us start several years ago, and you say, "Hey, what about Garrett Hobart?"

I said, "Who?

Who is Garrett Hobart, and why should we remember him?"

Please.

- First off, Garrett Hobart belongs in the New Jersey Hall of Fame, Steve.

He is arguably one of the most accomplished politicians this state has ever seen, being the vice presidential candidate in the 1896 presidential election, knowing full well that in 1912, the governor of New Jersey was elected President of the United States, but Garrett Hobart was a very, - Woodrow Wilson.

- Woodrow Wilson.

Garrett Hobart was a very significant player.

He's also adjacent to some very interesting New Jersey stories, and just one of them is the story of New Jerseyans in national politics, those who have been on the presidential ticket of major parties, as well as some of our Supreme Court justices.

- By the way, for those who are wondering why Rick Thigpen, if you haven't watched "Remember Them,", he is a historian, he thinks about it, cares about history, understands it, and puts it into perspective.

Keep going on Hobart, because the part that threw me as I was researching this is that he was in the New Jersey legislature in the Lower House, then the Upper House, but he was the speaker of the House and the president of Senate.

Please.

- He's the first man to accomplish that goal.

Not only was he the speaker of the New Jersey General Assembly and Senate president, he did both before he turned 40 years old, and that was just the beginning of his political career.

He later became the chairman of the New Jersey Republican State Committee and a member and vice chair of the Republican National Committee, and in that capacity, he accomplished two extraordinary things.

He got a man named John Griggs, who succeeded him in the state Senate from Passaic County, elected governor of New Jersey as a Republican, the first Republican to win statewide office in the state, I'm sorry, to be elected governor, since the Civil War, 30 years before that, and then the following year, the governor of Ohio, a man named William McKinley, decided to pick the New Jersey State Republican chairman as his running mate, and he was the - Why?

- vice presidential candidate.

- Why, Rick?

What, what...

It's been so hard for New Jersey political figures to ascend nationally.

What the heck was it about Hobart that McKinley said, "Yes, I want you on my ticket.

Please.

- You know, it's somewhat intangible, but it's part of a much bigger story.

A lot of people who pay attention to politics know about a man named Mark Hanna, who was the campaign manager for William McKinley, but even more so than Mark Hanna, a guy named Garrett Hobart, who his friends called Gus, was a lawyer politician who navigated the world of business and politics like a real pro.

He developed tremendous influence in New Jersey, served on the boards of a bunch of banks, made a lot of money practicing law, even though he'd ever graduated from law school, and navigated this world seamlessly.

Some of us have seen some bosses and important political figures in our state who've done that recently, but he did it in a fashion probably better than anybody else has ever done it in our state, and he did it so well, I'll say again, the governor of Ohio, who won the Republican nomination, picked him to be his running mate, and he, having been a former presiding officer, used the office of vice president in a way that few had done before, and he became known as assistant president And it's very relevant to Sheila Oliver, lieutenant governor and former assembly speaker - The late Sheila Oliver?

I'm sorry, folks, we're doing a separate, entire half-hour of "Remember Them," which will also air on "One-On-One," dedicated to the late, great, iconic, extraordinary public figure, Lieutenant Governor Sheila Oliver.

Pick it up please, Rick.

- One of East Orange's finest, I'll also add.

Gus Hobart had been the presiding officer in both houses in New Jersey, and really moved the president's legislative agenda in a way most vice presidents didn't do in a hands-on touch, so he was really an extraordinary figure, incredibly influential.

How many vice presidents do you know were called assistant president?

Again, he was on the ticket for 1896, and he was a man of great accomplishment, and then he had health problems, and before he turned the age of 60, he died in office from some type of heart ailment, and so that spot was open, and the Republicans turned to the governor of New York, a man named Theodore Roosevelt, to fill his presidency, - Teddy Roosevelt - and the rest is history.

- Yeah.

- McKinley wins reelection in 1900.

A year later, he's assassinated, Teddy Roosevelt takes office.

It could have been Gus Hobart from New Jersey, who has a statue in front of Passaic, I'm sorry, Paterson City Hall, a Passaic County senator could have been the President of the United States but for his health failing.

- You know, it's interesting.

When we started talking about, Jacqui Tricarico and I were brainstorming with our team, and we started talking to Rick about this, PS, let me disclose that PSEG is an underwriter of our programming, particularly on public broadcasting, but I wanna be clear about something, Rick.

The most, I shouldn't say obvious, names, we partnered with the New Jersey Hall of Fame.

Some of the people that are very well known became the first folks that we featured on "Remember Them," but then there are these others who, before we move to Harrison Williams, former senator, things didn't go well at all for him, Rick, real quick, particularly for folks whose names are not household names, who we do not know, why is it so important to remember those folks, even if they're not very familiar to us?

Please, Rick, before we move on.

- Well, our state has a proud history, and a proud history playing a role in national politics, and many New Jerseyans have done many important things, and not only in this case, you know, and New Jersey's history is not always glorious.

After the Civil War, our state went for the Democratic Party, the party that supported the South in secession.

I already mentioned that John Griggs, who became attorney general of the United States under William McKinley, was elected governor by the efforts of Garrett Hobart in 1895, which is 30 years after the war.

1896, he was on the ticket, and for the first time since Ulysses Grant was president and won the 1872 election, New Jersey voted for a Republican.

So he was very influential.

He's an example of history being made by people who we don't always know about.

The role of William McKinley in 1896 is a fascinating role.

You know, just for a second, he beat a former Nebraska congressman who parlayed a role on the platform committee at the Democratic Convention in 1896 to become the presidential nominee, a man named William Jennings Bryant, and it was a big issue - about the economy - Wow!

- Yes, 1896 is quite a remarkable story, and McKinley winning is quite important for our country, and it's something that should hopefully whet the appetite of people who wanna understand the history of our country, what really happened in 1896.

- Sure.

- And how about this connection between business and politics that happened during that time?

And Teddy Roosevelt took a very different tack as a trust-buster and a guy who attacked the, you know, the Carnegies and the Rockefellers, later on.

Very interesting politics of the era.

- Hey, Rick, we've got a couple of minutes left.

Let's just shift gears.

Some people say, why are you featuring and talking about on "Remember Them," Harrison Williams, who was indicted in connection with the, quote, "Abscam fiasco," if you will, FBI involved a sting operation, but we need to know about him, because he served in the US Senate, New Jersey, 1959 to 1982, convicted on May 1st, 1981, left office in 1982, served two years in federal prison, Abscam, took money, bribe.

Real quick, why is he worth remembering, not for all the right reasons, but why do we remember Harrison Williams?

Please, got a couple minutes.

- Harrison Williams was a very talented politician who not only got elected to the Senate but could have been a governor of New Jersey.

I had the privilege of meeting him after his elective life, after Abscam, and he was a man who had extraordinary political ability, a man who talked about how alcoholism led him to disaster, a man who then invested in the Integrity House in Newark and tried to help others avoid the same fate he did, a man who had a common touch and was a, you know, and was very successful, so he's a man who made big mistakes, but like all politicians, was a human, and he's someone who we should remember not only for the things he did wrong, nobody can explain away or forgive him for his role in Abscam, but a man who had enormous talent, the common touch, who really could've been a great man in history but for a personal failing, being a love of alcohol.

And he said, "I learned it by going to receptions, by living on the streets, as, you know, many politicians do, and every night, I'd have a drink here, I'd have a drink here, I'd have a drink here, and soon after that, it became a disease for me."

So it's the human side, Steve, an incredibly talented man who had a human failing.

- You know, as we throw it to the next segment, I just wanted to be clear, Harrison Williams went to jail for taking money, a bribe, but here's the funny thing about people in public life for decades, and Rick understands this better than most, he has family history in government, and politics, and public service that speaks for itself, we need to acknowledge that those things have happened and those crimes were committed, but that does not mean that we ignore the impact the positive impact they had in certain areas.

That's why we talk about Harrison Williams.

Thank you, Rick.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

Switching gears, Remember Them remembers someone I knew very well from the city of Newark.

Served in the state legislature for many years.

The late Senator Ron Rice.

We talked to LeRoy Jones who is not only the Essex County Democratic Chair, former state legislature, and also the State Chairman of the Democratic Party who knew Ron Rice very well.

They served together, they worked together.

What'd you take from that interview, Jacqui?

- Well, you know, Senator Rice was really this monumental figure from Newark.

Well who lived in Newark for many years.

Originally from the south, and his family moved up here and made their roots in Newark.

He just was one of those guys, one of those legislative leaders, that didn't let anybody tell him otherwise.

He had his viewpoints.

He made those very clear.

And even when he had viewpoints that were maybe not exactly with his political affiliation, he still went with his gut and what he thought was right.

And I know we get to first see, we have a quick clip from an interview, the last interview you did with Senator Ron Rice before his passing.

Him talking about just why it's so important, for him why it was so important to serve the people of New Jersey.

- [Steve] We are honored to be joined by one of the senior members of the Senate in New Jersey, going on 34 years in the legislature.

- That's correct.

- Still loving it?

- I'm doing the people's business.

You have to love that.

- Yeah, well, we're gonna get into people's business right now.

Ron Rice is a senator, represents the 28th Legislative District, largely in Newark, but not exclusively?

- No, parts of Newark, Glen Ridge, Bloomfield, Nutley, and Irvington - Complex district, interesting.

- Yes.

- Let's get right into it.

You are not in favor, Senator, of the legalization of recreational marijuana, but rather say we need to decriminalize marijuana, make the case.

- Well, the case is very simple.

When you decriminalize it means that you no longer have a record for a criminal offense, therefore you can still get employment and raise your family and do good things and hopefully wean off and go in a positive direction.

Legalization is about making money.

- We're now joined by LeRoy Jones, Jr.

He's the State Democratic Chairman, also the Chairman of the Democratic Party in Essex County.

Good to see you, my friend.

- Same here, Steve.

Always a pleasure.

- You got it.

You know, Senator Ron Rice, a trailblazer, a strong, independent legislator, politician who did not take orders from anyone regardless of who they were.

Apt description or not?

- I'm gonna adjust it a little bit, Steve.

- Okay, go ahead.

(laughs) - He did take orders, and he took orders from, you know, those that were the most needy.

He took orders from, you know, those that were, you know, underprivileged.

He took orders from those that were underserved.

And those orders were, you know, to go out and fight for me, the little man, the little woman, those individuals that oftentimes don't have a voice, you know, Ron was their voice.

- So well said.

And by way of background, Jacqui and I talked about this.

Senator Rice, a police officer for eight years in the city of Newark, 16 years on the City Council, Deputy Mayor of Newark 2002, 2006.

Ran for mayor twice, 1998, 2006, lost both times, one to Sharpe James, the other one to Cory Booker, Chair of the Legislative Black Caucus, a senator for many years in New Jersey.

Would you argue, LeRoy, who you knew him well, that... Well, no, I'm gonna put it this way.

His fight against the legalization of marijuana, which is in fact legal, as we all know, in the state right now, his fight for many years.

Is that the most significant legislative mark in his career?

I don't know how to describe that.

Because even though it did happen, he fought it for many years on what he argued were very principled reasons, please.

- Yeah, I mean, he had his own, you know, vision about, you know, the legalization of marijuana.

You know, he thought that, you know, that it led to other vices and other devices that would, you know, cripple, you know, our minority community.

And as I said earlier, those are the individuals that, you know, he oftentimes fought for.

And, you know, he was tenacious about it.

You know, he fought it with, you know, with grace.

He fought it with his own facts.

You know, he fought it, you know, tooth and nail with, you know, so many that advocated, you know, for the legalization and including myself because I was a proponent of legalization.

- But the other issue that I remember, and we did so many interviews with Senator Rice over the years on the issue of racial profiling.

He was a real leader.

He was outspoken, strong, and argued that some things then and now more than ever needed and need to change.

Talk about the racial profiling issue with the Senator, Senator Rice.

- You know, it's funny that you mentioned that because, you know, when I was in the legislature, you know, I was, along with Shirley Turner and myself, we brought- - Shirley Turner from Trenton, New Jersey.

Go ahead, please.

- From Trenton, Mercer County.

We brought that issue, you know, that stemmed from, you know, the state police and the inequities within the state police.

And then that awful incident on the Parkway where, you know, there was a shooting and, you know, amongst young African Americans that were traveling, you know, to, I believe it was a basketball tryout at the time.

- In a van, I remember.

- Yeah, and at that time, Joe Charles from Hudson County- - From Jersey City, yeah.

Great Joe Charles.

- Was the Chair of the Legislative Black and Latino Caucus.

It was a joint caucus at that time.

And Ron, you know, along with myself and Joe Charles and Shirley Turner, and so many others, you know, became, you know, staunch, you know, advocates to ensure that racial profiling ultimately became a crime.

The bill in the Assembly, you know, was sponsored by me when I was there.

I believe Ron had it in the Senate along with Shirley Turner.

You know, I left the legislature when that bill was still being debated because at that time, you know, it was a Republican-controlled legislature and the Governor's Office with Whitman.

When McGreevey came in, you know, I had left the legislature.

Ron and company pushed that.

So today, that is a, you know, that racial profiling is a crime in New Jersey.

- You know, LeRoy, as the top Democrat in the state, in the Democratic Party, as the chair of the party statewide and in Essex County, you understand politics better than most.

You and I grew up in this.

- Oh yeah.

- You know right away where I'm going.

- Absolutely.

- In this rough, nasty, personal, vicious, and I'm understating how tough it could be in Essex County and in New Jersey when it comes to politics.

Ron Rice, Senator Rice was never a name-caller.

He never attacked people personally.

- No.

- And no matter how strongly he felt about something, was always a gentleman.

Please share.

- You know, I'm glad you mentioned that.

You know, the politics, you know, of the state and certainly Essex County is not a business for the faint of heart.

You know, Ron was not, you know, an individual whose, you know, heart was afaint.

You know, Ron, you know, somehow, you know, in, you know, his quests, you know, and he was oftentimes off the party line.

He ran against the party.

You know, he won each and every time because- - That's what I meant!

Excuse me, LeRoy.

That's what I meant when he said he didn't take...

Yes from his constituents, no from the bosses, correct?

- Oh, yeah, I mean, he was, you know, to take a quote from Shirley Chisholm, "He was unbought and unbossed."

And the people saw that, and that's why he was able to be elected.

I mean, there was a number of individuals who you know well that wanted to jettison Ron.

(laughs) - Hold on!

I can't believe you're going there.

I can't believe it!

This is my show.

(both laughing) - I didn't call any names.

(laughs) - No, do not speak ill of those who have passed.

- Yes, I will not do that.

- So just to be clear, he- - Because he was a good friend of mine, too.

(laughs) - So, listen, I won't turn this into a family thing, but LeRoy and I know too much about each other.

My dad, my late dad, who we did a "Remember Them" on, North Ward Center, Robert Treat Academy was also a strong Democratic Party boss leader.

And let's just say he and the good senator would battle head-to-head a lot.

Is that a fair assessment?

- A lot, a lot, a lot.

But you know what, they had the, you know, the utmost respect for each other, that no doubt in my mind, they were, you know, they oftentimes butted heads, but, you know, there was a tremendous amount of respect and admiration, you know, for what each stood for and what each of them understood what they stood for.

- And neither one backed... My dad just didn't...

I don't think he liked that the Senator wouldn't do what he wanted him to do.

Basically, that was it.

- Pretty much.

Well, that was par for the course for your dad.

- Hold on, LeRoy.

- (laughs) With anybody.

- You think I don't understand this?

I know you were on the other end, too, and didn't back down either.

- Not too many times.

- Yeah, well, listen, I cannot thank you enough.

And for those who never really got a chance to see, know, or understand who Ron Rice was, Senator Ron Rice, do your yourself a favor.

Google his name, see some YouTube videos, read stories or watch stories on "NJ Spotlight News" about the work that he did over many, many years.

And people like LeRoy Jones who are public servants understood him, not just from a political or governmental point of view or a policy point of view, but a very human personal point of view.

LeRoy, my friend, I can't thank you enough.

- Thank you, Steve.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to share a moment with a true friend of both of ours.

- Always.

- Thank you.

- Steve Adubato for my colleague.

Remember my colleague.

Yeah, I remember her name.

It's Jacqui Tricarico for "Remember Them" talking about Senator Ron Rice with LeRoy Jones.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Celebrating 30 years in public broadcasting.

Funding has been provided by NJM Insurance Group.

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And by PSEG Foundation.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Globe.

And by New Jersey Monthly.

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