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(upbeat music) - Hi everyone.

Steve Adubato with Jacqui Tricarico our executive producer and co-anchor of "Remember Them."

Jacqui, we kick off this program.

We're looking at two important literary figures.

First up is Walt Whitman.

Who are you talking to?

- Yeah.

Two great American poets we're looking at today.

So Walt Whitman, I had the chance to speak with Tyler Hoffman, who is the head of the English department at Rutgers.

He's a Whitman scholar, knows so much about Whitman.

And in terms of Whitman in New Jersey, bringing it back to the New Jersey connection here on "Remember Them," Camden.

Camden became Whitman's home later on in his life.

He loved Camden.

He was quoted as saying, "Camden was originally an accident, but I shall never be sorry.

I was left over in Camden, has brought me blessed returns."

There is the Walt Women House in Camden right now.

It's now a New Jersey historical site.

It's something that you can go and check out.

It was constructed in 1848, and has a lot of artifacts in there too that you could go and see and learn more about Whitman.

He wasn't just the name of the Walt Whitman Bridge.

(laughs) He was so much more than that.

- He's more than that.

- Yeah.

And so Jacqui talked to, as she said, Tyler Hoffman, the head of the English department at Rutgers, and a scholar who knows all about Walt Whitman.

So Jacqui, talking to Professor Hoffman, and on the back end of this, we're gonna be talking to someone who knows an awful lot about another poet.

- Yeah, great American poets.

This show is all about people we need to remember, and their literary language, what they've left behind still has impacts today.

- But first is Whitman, right?

- Yep.

First Whitman.

- Let's check it out.

- Often called the Bard of Democracy, Walt Whitman is considered to be the most influential poet in U.S history.

Raised in Brooklyn, Whitman was largely self-educated and worked as a journalist until his mid-thirties.

It was then that he published Leaves of Grass, a collection of 12 poems that launched a literary journey that would produce a masterpiece.

Still revered today.

For the next thirty-five years, Whitman would write and rewrite Leaves of Grass until its final edition, which grew to more than 400 pages and 300 poems.

It was during the last two decades of his life, which he spent in Camden, that he finally completed the work.

He died in his beloved New Jersey town in 1892, and was buried there.

- Joining us now is Dr. Tyler Hoffman, professor and chair of English and Communication at Rutgers University, Camden, and the author of a great book called "American Poetry and Performance from Walt Whitman to Hip Hop."

Tyler, thanks so much for joining us.

- Thanks for having me, Jacqui.

- So, Walt Whitman, one of America's greatest poets, born in 1819.

First, can you describe Whitman's upbringing and education, and how really early on in his teen years, he used written word to elevate his voice and his concerns?

- Yeah.

He doesn't have the life you'd think the poet would have.

- Right.

He was born on Long Island and his family moved to Brooklyn when he was about six years old, and he really only had a formal education until about the age of 12, at which time he started to learn the print trade and how to, you know, set type, and really the mechanics of publishing.

And it was kind of those skills that he learned very, very young that he was able to kind of draw on when he did start to write, mostly as a journalist at first in his young adulthood, but then also writing some fiction and other kinds of literature before really making his name as a poet in the 1850s.

- And I know we're talking Walt Whitman, we have to talk "Leaves of Grass," right?

That's his most important body of work.

And it went through so many changes and eight different editions being put out, him constantly kind of changing it, shifting it, making it new again.

Describe "The Leaves of Grass" and just why it was just so groundbreaking for the time.

- Yeah, the first edition of "Leaves of Grass" was published in 1855, and it was kind of scandalous, right?

I mean, he's, you know, in the pages of the book, he's really celebrating the body as much as he is the soul.

And he's taking on a lot of taboo subjects, you know, talking very frankly about the sensuality of the human body, the spirituality of that sensuality.

And really for a Christian nation, you know, with certain, a certain sense of morality, his word was heard by many as sacrilegious, right?

You're putting the body on the same level as the soul.

How can you do that?

The soul is- - There was backlash.

- Yeah, there was, there was huge backlash.

But then there were deep admirers who were like, "Gosh, this poet is speaking truths about humanity that no poet really has dared to speak before."

So yes, the controversies that surrounded "Leaves of Grass" continued throughout his life.

And as you say, he kept remodeling the book.

So it comes out first in 1855, and then the next year, another edition, then a few years later, another edition, all through his life until the, what we call the deathbed edition in 1891/92.

And he was putting new poems in, taking old poems out, even revising the wording and punctuation of poems.

So it's a kind of living document.

- Yeah.

Why did he make that into a living document?

Why did he say, he didn't go and just put together a new set of poetry and a new book?

What was his thinking behind all of that?

- Right.

It's a good question because of course with most poets, it's like, you've got a lot of titles.

And there are other titles in his body of work.

But yeah, he kept coming back to, he started to think of "Leaves of Grass" as something of a secular bible.

And I think he wanted to double down on that singular text.

And what's interesting as it moves through time is that it begins to reflect the changing currents in American life and culture as it evolves.

- Was he talking politics?

What was he talking about that really got the most attention?

- Yeah, he is talking about politics some of the time, and, you know, you can see definite shifts.

As the book moves along from, you know, pre-Civil War ideas about the nation, to ideas about the nation going through the war.

And then after the war, during reconstruction, and his ambivalent feelings about what's happening then.

And quite a number of his poems are really pivoting on the Civil War.

And he was involved in the war as a kind of nurse in army hospitals in DC.

And he always found that the Civil War was the, the pivotal moment in American history.

And I think you clearly see the way his poems and his idea about politics and the nation change from before the war to after the war.

- Let's go back a little bit to that time as an army nurse for him and kind of what that meant to him, why he wanted to do that at that time.

And I know in your book you do describe that Whitman didn't like to perform his written language.

That wasn't something that he loved to do, but during his time as a army nurse, he would do that for the soldiers within the hospitals.

Talk about that time for him and what that meant to Whitman.

- Yeah, I mean, he always was a little bit ambivalent about performing his own work, and he did, to some extent, and, you know, it's clear that his poetry is written according to this idea of it's being delivered, even though he wasn't out there barding around.

But you're right, the intimate, the intimate setting of army hospitals in DC gave him the chance to perform sometimes not his own, usually not his own work, but to read some passages, read some passages to the wounded soldiers there.

And really, his calling was to minister to the sick and dying soldiers.

He was criticized by some for not going to the front, but, you know, as he himself said, he was never cut out for going to the front.

But, in many ways, his ideal of comradeship was realized, was practically realized in these ministerings he did to wounded soldiers, both Northern and Southern, in these hospitals.

And he was able to achieve a certain intimacy with these soldiers, and perform for them all sorts of tasks, gave them little gifts of food, wrote letters home for them, and was just a soothing presence to them in these hospitals.

- And we can't, you know, not talk about Camden when we're talking about Walt Whitman.

Really quickly, in about a minute or less, talk about the significance of Camden, New Jersey for Walt Whitman.

And I know you're working on a book right now about that time period of his life.

If we can condense it in just a minute, I know there's so much more to it, but go ahead.

- Yeah, no, no, yeah, it's a really understudied part of his life.

He came to Camden having just suffered a stroke in 1873, and he lived in Camden until his death in 1892.

He wasn't intending to come to Camden, but his mother had died.

He visited her, then he came back, and really couldn't carry on.

He was so sick when he got back that he couldn't continue on to Atlantic City like he thought he would, ended up taking up residence in his brother's house in Camden.

And I think the Camden and Philadelphia years are understudied because it was kind of conventionally understood that he was in decline during these years and that not a lot of new writing took place, or it was a maybe inferior writing to what had happened.

And while it is a very different kind of writing, what I've found in studying these years and studying the impact that the city and the culture of Camden, of Philadelphia had on his work, that that is a significant, it had a significant force.

And that in fact the writing he did during those years is really quite interesting and kind of quirky, but it owes a lot to the way local politics were unfolding, but also national politics on a local stage were unfolding during these years.

And maybe the most important thing about having settled in Camden is that he met a group of friends, young men who became admirers and adherents, but more to the point they became helpers.

And without their presence and constant, you know, dedication, the writing that he did, and the publication that he did during those years would never have occurred.

So without that coterie of friends, that network of collaborators, he probably wouldn't have published anything after 1876.

- So there's a lot more to learn about Walt Whitman in Camden.

You're doing that research now, putting that book together.

We look forward to seeing that come out.

Thank you so much, Tyler, for joining us to give us some insight about Walt Whitman and his impact, not just here in New Jersey, but the nation and the world.

Thank you so much.

- Thanks, Jacqui.

- Thanks.

We'll be right back after this.

- [Narrator] To watch more One on One with Steve Adubato find us online and follow us on Social media.

Jacqui, now we take a look at the poet, Allen Ginsburg collection of his poems there.

I talked to Eric Shoemaker, who's the digital editor at The Poetry Foundation, I believe.

Where is that?

Out in Chicago?

- Yeah.

Yeah.

And he's a poet himself as well.

And he talks about his personal connection to Allen Ginsburg and, you know, really tying or bridging together Walt Whitman and Ginsburg.

Allen Ginsburg, he said Whitman was, you know, someone that he really looked up to when he began his career, and began writing his poetry.

And you get in depth with Eric about all the controversial things that Allen Ginsburg did over his career.

But one area we didn't get too far in depth about, is his connection to Paterson.

Born and raised in Paterson, right.

He came back to Paterson a few times.

And one of those times that he came back and read his poems, at one point he said in public, that he had just went and got high.

(laughing) - What?

- And, yeah, and back then, this is 1966, I believe.

You know, that was a crime.

And they were going- - Who was the...

Hold on.

Jacqui, "Remember Them" quiz.

- Okay.

- Ready?

- Who was the mayor of Paterson who wanted to arrest Ginsburg for getting high in Paterson for a public appearance?

Who was it?

Mayor Graves Jr. - First name?

- Frank Graves.

- Look, you're reading off of something.

I know you are.

- I am.

I am.

I can't remember all these facts, Steve.

But yeah, so you know, so he had this little bit of a tiff with Paterson for a little while, 'cause he's like- - He did.

- I'm not gonna go back there and get arrested.

He did end up going back, finally returned in 1980, and did some things there.

He definitely always had that connection back to Paterson.

But for a little time there he was like, "Wait, I don't know if I should go back to Paterson.

Could get in trouble over there."

- Yeah.

Ginsburg and Paterson, an interesting relationship.

And Ginsburg, boy, he never held back.

And we talked to Eric Shoemaker all about the late great Allen Ginsburg, who we remember.

Check it out.

- We're now joined by Eric Shoemaker, Digital Archive Editor at the Poetry Foundation in Chicago.

Eric, great to have you with us.

- Hi, Steve, it's great to be here with you too.

- You got it.

This is part of our series, "Remember Them."

Why should we remember Allen Ginsberg?

Talk to us.

- So, Allen Ginsberg was one of the most significant poets of his generation and still has a huge influence on poets today.

He was part of the beat generation, beat movement during the '50s and '60s.

This was the counterculture time, right?

This is when people were challenging the system, every system, and Ginsberg was at the forefront of that challenge.

- Okay, so what what strikes me as I try to understand Ginsberg is that nothing seemed to be off limits for him.

And he would-- - (laughs) No.

- Why, why, hold on, why does that get a laugh out of you right out of the box?

Go ahead.

- I think that's what made Ginsberg such a great poet, and what made him exciting and still keeps him exciting to people today is that there was nothing that he couldn't write about.

And people thought, you know, in many ways up until then, at least in sort of the normal American sense that you couldn't talk about these things, but he talked about-- - So let's go counter, I'm sorry for interrupting, drug counterculture drugs, sex, homosexuality.

Oh, and then we'll talk about Paterson, his connection to Paterson, in just a second.

Those things, these topics were not explored in poetry or in literature, or in society, right?

- Well, I think that people had done it, but in America at his time, it was something that was taboo.

It was something that was still kept under wraps, right?

But when Ginsberg published "HOWL" with City Lights in 1955, it brought all of that stuff that poets had been writing about into pop culture.

Ginsberg made it popular.

- Let's talk about HOWL.

So, in 1956, HOWL led to an obscenity law, excuse me, obscenity lawsuit in 1957.

What the?

Obscenity lawsuit?

And by the way, check out James Franco on the 2010 movie, "Howl."

The lawsuit said, what?

- I mean, at the beginning, the lawsuit was trying to challenge what poets could and could not do, what publishers could and could not do, right?

Lawrence Ferlinghetti brought to court because Ginsberg's poem, which says all of these things about sex and homosexuality and challenges war, says things about mental health, he was told that he couldn't do that, right?

But-- - By whom?

- I think this is really by like America, right?

This is a challenge to-- (Steve chuckles) - Right.

What presses can do, what poets can do.

And he did not get convicted of this, right?

Like he was found that this was not obscene and the charges didn't result in any conviction.

So this ended up meaning that presses and poets could do more in certain ways.

You could write about these things and have a book about it.

And, of course, the obscenity trial made City Lights, Ginsberg, and HOWL incredibly popular.

People had parts of his poem memorized.

It became kind of a calling card.

- How did you become interested in Ginsberg?

How and why?

- So, I went to Naropa University for my Master's in Fine Arts.

I'm a poet; and so when I went there, I found out, I didn't know before, but I found out when I got there that Ginsberg had started this school.

He started the Creative Writing program at Naropa with other writers, including Diane di Prima, another beat writer.

And so I really started reading his poetry then, and also became very compelled by these things that you can and cannot write about.

- New Jersey connection.

Paterson, New Jersey.

And I don't, it's such a cliche, Eric, to call it a love hate relationship, but something was going on there with Paterson.

Talk to us about the Ginsberg Paterson connection.

- Sure, so, Ginsberg, you know, who was born in New Jersey and his mentor, William Carlos Williams, was also from New Jersey, and Williams is a modernist poet.

Ginsberg's poetry and Williams's poetry couldn't really be more different, in my mind, but he learned certain things about poetry from Williams.

And Ginsberg's other ancestral mentor of sorts, Walt Whitman, is from New New Jersey, right?

- On the other end of this program, we're doing Whitman.

Go ahead, I'm sorry.

- Oh, amazing, yeah.

So he takes a lot of these poets' ideas and moves on with them.

I think that growing up, you know, this way being born in New Jersey started Ginsberg off thinking about the problems that he later writes about, right.

- You know, I wanted to read sections of the poem "Paterson" by Allen Ginsberg, but there are huge sections of it because we're on public broadcasting that I cannot and will not, lots of profanity here, but there's a section where he talks about Garret Mountain, big part of Paterson.

He talks about the buildings in Paterson, the people of Paterson, the grit of Paterson.

Did he love Paterson or hate it?

I can't figure it out.

- I mean, I think what Ginsberg did was write about his surroundings and his setting and the people of a place that he both cared about and found problems with.

You see this across his work, right?

When he writes about America, "The Fall of America," he's writing about the people who make the country and how that is in opposition to, in some ways, the country as a system, right?

The country as a government, and all the ways that politics can oppress people, so, he can have a love hate relationship and hold those things in his head at the same time.

He can hold those in his poems at the same time and teaches you as a reader how to do that.

- Eric, was Ginsberg actually considered dangerous in this country?

- Sure.

- And if so, how and why?

- He's seen as dangerous because of the ideas that he got into people's heads.

I mean, once his poetry is allowed to be published, HOWL's all over the streets, he is writing against the Vietnam War.

I mean, the government doesn't want him writing about Vietnam, they don't want him writing about communism.

They, you know, there's lots of things that he-- - They don't want him writing about homosexuality, - Right, yeah.

- Because?

- He challenges all of these silences, yeah.

I think that people thought that poetry could only do one thing, and it couldn't speak to contemporary events, it couldn't speak to politics.

But once people get the idea in their head that they can speak out, poetry can change the way that other people think.

And that's what's dangerous about Ginsberg.

- Eric, how important do you think it was, and is, because Remember Them is about understanding not just the impact certain people with a Jersey connection had, but the impact they continue to have.

For Ginsberg, how important do you believe it was?

'Cause I'm gonna ask you about his drug use in a moment.

But in this case, being openly gay at a time when very few were openly, very few Americans were openly gay.

Please, how much did it matter in your view?

- I think it mattered to Ginsberg a lot.

I think it was a part of his identity that he didn't want to hide, right?

And I think that by not hiding it, he showed other people how not to hide it.

And as a poet, we see that today too, right?

We see that there are so many poets who are outspoken about all aspects of their identity, and a lot of it starts with this breaking apart of the counterculture movement, right?

The capacity to say who you are as honestly as you want, or, you know, as authentically or problematically, whatever it is, you can trace a lot of that back to Ginsberg.

- Real quick, I shouldn't have ended on this, but experimented pretty heavily with drugs?

- Yeah, oh definitely.

Especially when he was a student at Columbia when he's with Jack Kerouac, another beat writer, they all experimented with all sorts of things, right?

- Yeah.

And then, do you believe he wrote while experiencing the effects of hallucinenic drug?

Drugs that make you hallucinate, I'll put it that way.

(laughs) Hallucinogenic, I couldn't get that word out.

Go ahead.

- (laughs) Hallucinogenic.

He certainly wrote about those experiences, right?

And other beat writers like Kerouac wrote while on those drugs, and I could say, you know, pretty certainly that his poetry is infused with it.

He also, you know, experienced hallucinatory vision while he was on drugs.

He sort of has this famous vision of poet William Blake who visited him, you know, from the ether.

This is another poet who writes about spirituality, who writes about mental states, right?

So the experimentation with drugs is another part of how he wanted to open his mind.

- Eric Shoemaker, the Digital Archive Editor at the Poetry Foundation in the Second City, Chicago.

Hey, Eric, I can't thank you enough for joining us.

We appreciate it.

Well done.

- Thank you so much, Steve.

- You got it.

I'm Steve Adubato for my colleague Jacqui Tricarico.

This is Remember Them.

Catch you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato has been a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Celebrating 30 years in public broadcasting.

Funding has been provided by PSEG Foundation.

NJM Insurance Group.

RWJBarnabas Health.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

Prudential Financial.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

And by The Russell Berrie Foundation.

Promotional support provided by The New Jersey Business & Industry Association.

And by BestofNJ.com.

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