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- Can schools be reopened safely?

Tonight on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] - I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian and thanks for joining us.

Today is maybe the first of this year at least, the show's focused on education.

Education in Memphis, education more broadly, but just been one of the main challenges of the COVID pandemic.

We will have other folks on over the coming weeks.

But first up today is Roblin Webb, Founder and CEO of Freedom Prep Charter Schools, a group of five charter schools, including Pre-K classrooms through 12th grade based in Whitehaven and the Westwood areas.

Roblin, thanks for being here.

- Thank you for having me.

- Emily Freitag is Co-Founder and CEO of Instruction Partners.

It's a non-profit organization focused on education and particularly focused on students in poverty, students with disabilities, students learning English, and students of color.

And we should also note that Emily is a former assistant commissioner at the Department of Ed for the State of Tennessee.

Emily, thanks for being here.

- Thanks for having me.

- And last but not least is Sean Gill from the Center on Reinventing Public Education.

It's a non-partisan research center focused on public education.

Sean, thanks for being here.

- It's nice to be with you.

- So let me go first to Emily, and I'll ask this broadly of all of you, and we can talk specifics at various points about school systems.

Obviously, Shelby County Schools is a big a point of discussion here.

But also there's some best practices, some lessons learned from the national level.

And particularly you, Emily and Sean, are looking more broadly, not that Roblin isn't also of course aware of what's going on nationally.

But for you Emily, how can big public school systems open safely and effectively knowing what we know about school systems like SCS, like Metro Nashville, like Chicago, where big public school systems, urban public school systems, have, generally, high number of black and brown students, they have higher levels of poverty.

We know COVID hits those populations much, much harder.

There is no simple answer today I think we'll all agree on that, but how can they reopen safely and effectively?

- Well, what I can speak to, we work with about 100 school districts across 9 or 10 states.

And about 50% of them are in some kind of hybrid learning.

Where some kids are in-person and some kids are at home.

About 25% are totally remote and 25% are totally in-person.

And, as I'm sure Sean will speak too, what's interesting is that whether schools are open or not, whether they're hybrid or not, it has much less to do with the virus than it does the politics of the local municipality and the size of the district.

And I think what makes larger school systems always so complex, is that you have so many different needs all at the same time that you're trying to balance and honor.

I think larger school systems always have just more people in the mix trying to figure out how to make decisions.

So, we have seen that schools can reopen, we have seen that they can reopen safely.

There's lots of different studies that show that.

That's very different than working through building the trust with the local community to really understand how to do that well.

And I think that's the challenge that big systems across the country are all facing.

- Let me go to Sean now and we'll come back to a lot of what you brought up there, Emily.

But Sean, your take on that same question, what are you seeing?

We are nine long, long months into this pandemic and most, if not all school systems, shut down really basically last March, April, when you look nationally.

So we're coming up on a year of, in effect, virtual learning, hybrid learning and so on.

What are you seeing that's working?

What are you seeing that's failing?

- Yeah, I think to echo Emily, across the country, our latest scan, 44% of districts were only offering remote learning to students.

But when you look at urban districts it's much higher, it's 74% of urban districts across the country are only offering in-person learning.

The interesting thing though is there are some notable exceptions and school systems like Broward County down in Florida, or Dallas ISD, or El Paso in Texas where there is sort of a state mandate to be open, they have done some interesting things with how they bring back students.

So in Broward they sort of called it E-learning.

So some students were doing the E-learning platform in classrooms with their teachers and other students who are at home.

And it's interesting to note that in many cases when families have the options to send their kids back, they actually aren't using that.

So in many cases when school systems are open, they aren't at full capacity.

I think that's something that gets lost.

Is we think it's an either all on or all off situation and that's not the case.

In addition to hybrid models where kids rotate, there are many districts, kids have the option to remain in the virtual program or they're essentially doing a livestream at school with other students that are in the classroom.

So I think there's ways that districts can really target the families and students that most need remote learning.

Remote learning, I think, for a lot of kids they're making do, families are making do with it, but there's a sizable population of kids that just aren't.

They aren't engaged, they aren't tuning in, they don't have a parent who can help them.

And so, it's really the question of how do districts find a way to support those students?

Can they bring them in for a partial day, or bring them in for even a couple of days a week.

And I think districts are starting to do more of that.

- Roblin, I'm bringing you in.

I mean you are obviously living and breathing this since what, March?

I assume you all went to virtual learning.

One, what are you doing in your schools?

What is working?

And if you're willing to say, what is not working?

- Yeah, absolutely, so we are still 100% virtual.

We had a small in-person option in November to December of last year.

And then we had a teacher pass, a 35 year old teacher, who contracted coronavirus and passed.

And so that kinda shook our community and so we went back 100% virtual.

Mind you, he did not get it at school.

He wasn't one of the teachers that was in-person.

But it still kinda shook our community to its core, and so we went back to 100% virtual.

Virtual is working for a segment of our students.

It's working for some kids and it is miserably failing others.

And I would say, probably the biggest challenge that we have would be student attendance.

And so, there are some kids who have missed significant amounts of school.

And I think that, that is the biggest challenge to in-person learning, to be honest.

We've done many things to get our kids on, but the student attendance is mainly a challenge of not necessarily having parent supervision.

And so, that is why we are considering offering kind of a hybrid in person option moving forward where we do have some in person options for families and we also have virtual options.

- A bunch of que... And it's obviously tragic to have lost one of your staff members, and I don't wanna let that go by.

It's also just heartbreaking as a person, as a parent, my kids are 20, in their 20s now, but still it's just heartbreaking to think of these kids who are lost in the system.

I think you said that the kids who were doing better, I don't want to put words in your mouth, did you say that it tends to be students who have more parental involvement with them?

Or did I make that up?

You said it was.

And does it vary by age?

- Just supervision.

- Oh, just supervision.

- Correct.

- And does it vary by age?

- To be honest, I think the kids that are struggling the most are probably our youngest kids that are middle schoolers.

High schoolers have adapted.

High schoolers have also figured out ways to trick the system and not show up [chuckles] and trick their supervision.

- A high school kid?

I can't picture that in high school, I can't imagine.

- But I would say our middle schoolers are probably the ones that are struggling the most.

Interestingly enough, from fall to fall, we didn't see a ton of gaps.

So when we first had to shift to virtual learning in March of last year, we saw in September of this school year, pretty much stable academic achievement.

However, we do know that there are gaps and we have upcoming assessments that are gonna show that there are probably significant gaps now that we've gotta get back to.

- Let me say one thing too before I go to you, Emily, which is that next week, I think I mentioned this would be a series, next week we have a number of public health and education folks on, to talk about some of the dynamics of what makes a school safe.

Dr. John McCullers, who many people are familiar with, he's been nice enough to come on the show a lot.

A local epidemiologist and part of the coronavirus task force.

We've also reached out to Joris Ray, the Superintendent to his office of Shelby County Schools to get here, and Board Chair Miska Clay Bibbs on the show.

And I will, note, if you are interested in this show I will do a self promotional thing, which I don't usually do.

We did a series of shows last fall, I think, we had every superintendent from the suburban schools on, usually in pairs, just to kinda get through it.

We had Joris Ray on, I think, one or two times.

They're on wkno.org.

They are as podcasts on the Behind the Headlines site or wherever you get your podcasts, and are on The Daily Memphian site, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And they were fascinating, for me, not for anything I did, conversations about the difficulties that you, not surprisingly Roblin, have captured.

Most of, for those who don't follow this as closely, most if not all of the suburban schools have tried hybrid programs.

They've moved people in and out.

They've had, I think not all of the school systems, suburban school systems, have had moments where they've had to close a school for days or weeks.

It has been, I think, all I would say, an imperfect, but they've tried to get as much in-person as they reasonably and safely could.

And all those shows were very interesting and enlightening about the complexities of this.

But, Emily, I'll come to you.

And Roblin talked about data in the beginning of assessments.

And I don't know if this is for you or maybe you and Sean, so forgive me.

What are we seeing nationally?

If anything, there's gotta be a certain amount of learning loss.

I just can't imagine there isn't in the best of circumstances.

What's the data telling us about learning loss, whether it's urban schools or any schools?

- Yeah, to share what we know, I think at this moment there's lots of questions, lots more assessments to come.

But before I do, I'd love to just mention two things.

- Sure.

- One, the term learning loss, I understand why we're all embracing it, but I do think it's a term that we should just interrogate a little bit, because I think we all have learned so much during this time.

And I think there are real holes.

There's kind of a spikiness.

There are things kids are learning in new ways as well as things that they're not learning that they might have if they were in school.

But I think it's a complicated term.

And then second, what we know right now I think is a partial picture, but when we look back at times where we've had interrupted schooling historically, when you look at the 1918 flu, when we look at Argentina which had a big teacher strike in the 80s, and kids were out of school for 82 days, we see very conclusively that there has just been generational challenge that was caused by that interrupted schooling.

The kids that were, particularly the young kids and the young poor kids that missed schooling for extended periods of time, completed less schooling over time, their income was lower.

And it's not just affecting those kids it affects all of us.

The GDP of Argentina was affected by that 82 days of interrupted schooling and we're up to 305 days now.

So, obviously we have different technology, we have different ways of trying to sustain during that time, but I think that we should all be operating with a very grave reality that this time is going to create challenges for all of us for many, many years to come.

What we know right now when it comes to data, is that math has taken a hit, reading has a more mixed picture.

And to Roblin's point on attendance, what we see across school systems is that attendance is a challenge right now.

I don't know a single school that doesn't have attendance rates that are lower and a portion of kids that really, they are having trouble even accessing.

And so, even the data that we do have feels like it's so incomplete to that broader story.

- Yeah, let me bring you in, Sean, to that.

I appreciate Emily educating me on this, and to these challenges with kids falling behind, and just the unevenness, if nothing else, of the educational experience that they've had.

Again, we all hope that we're about to get out of this thing through the vaccines.

I'm an optimist so I'm hoping in summer there'll be some semblance of normalcy, and certainly in the fall there'll be very real normalcy.

Don't tell me otherwise.

But what should schools be doing?

And Tennessee has talked about, and the state legislature's put some money in place for some summer learning, for tutors.

Forget money for a second, what would you recommend, Sean, that school systems do, big and small, to get kids caught back up and compensate for this time lost?

- I think the first step is just really, trying to understand where we are.

There's so much uncertainty, and I think there's so much uncertainty about this term of learning loss even, but it's harder in a context where we don't have some of the standardized tests we've had.

And I know testing isn't popular, especially when students are struggling with many other day-to-day challenges.

But having some of that data is good, even in Shelby County, I think to their credit, except Shelby County Schools, have tried to do some of the assessments that they typically provide so they could at least get a sense.

'Cause I think, anecdotally, we hear many of these stories.

We've talked to parents, they're like, "We don't think our kids are getting all the concepts that they would have normally gotten."

And that's true.

But it's like, I'm worried about those kids who we don't know that, we just don't know where they are.

And so, the first step I think is really trying to figure out, what is our assessment strategy?

How are we going to have a system for assessment?

'Cause every teacher I think knows where their students are, but it's how do we have that picture of the system level?

And then the next step is, to your point is, and to Emily's point, is that this isn't going to be something that we bounce back from.

I'm very optimistic too, Eric, that we're going to have in person learning in September.

We just have to keep saying it I think to realize it.

But at the same time, kids aren't gonna bounce back just because we opened the doors in September, or we opened the doors in July.

And so the school systems, I mentioned Dallas earlier, I think they're one where they're starting to be intentional saying, "What is our strategy for overcoming learning loss?"

And that's something we're developing with the community and trying to have community buy-in, and recognizing that this is gonna be something we're gonna be talking about for one to two years, if not more.

And that might mean summer school, but it also might mean extra hours for certain students.

It might mean having a lot more universal tutoring, providing/finding ways to do one-on-one tutoring, even now on Zoom but then, of course, maybe do that in-person down the line.

- Yeah.

- It's just having that longer term view.

Which, again, it's very hard for districts when they're dealing with so much, but I think taking those steps now, there are some federal dollars, there might be more federal dollars, there might be more state dollars, think about how do we use those additional dollars strategically to kind of help students recover.

- Roblin, to you, a couple of questions following up on what they just brought up.

One is, is there a way to do assessments that isn't punitive?

I think that's a simplification but that's often the kind of debate about TNReady and about other things.

That the testing feels punitive 'cause it hurts teachers, or it holds back kids.

This seems like assessment of where kids are is the most important thing.

Where does that stand within your schools of assessing their status?

- Yeah, absolutely, it's where they are.

We just want to know where they are academically.

So we give the step assessment in terms of reading, and then the math assessment.

And that measures us nationally.

So we know where our kids are.

And it's not punitive.

And we are required this year to do in-person testing for TNReady.

And again, in my mind, that's where we are.

It is determining kinda where our kids are, so where we start just to start academic intervention and once we go back to school.

- Another question, I have so many questions, but another, from a funding point of view there is some $190 million in Federal CARES Act money that's gonna pass through to Shelby County Schools.

You're a charter School, so under or next to their umbrella, so I assume some of that money is coming to you all.

What does Freedom Prep need in terms of additional dollars?

Whether that's facility changes, or that's tutoring and summer school, or something else entirely.

- Yeah, so it is tutoring, it's summer school.

It's we are looking at organizations like City Year, to partner with City Year to get more tutors and more folks to perform academic intervention.

But it's also, we're making an investment in social and emotional health.

Not only in our kids and our families, but also in our adults.

I think we underestimate just the toll that this pandemic has had on just the mental health of everyone.

I start every call with every funder and they ask, "How are you doing?"

I'm like, "No one's okay, but we're making it through."

And so, they understand that just the significant investment that's gonna be made.

We've already had social work in our schools pretty much for the past five or six years.

But we will ramp up in terms of social work, mental health services, and embedding that in our daily schedule to ensure that not only are kids and families are okay, but also our staff members are okay as we push through.

- Emily, I want to come to you if I can on that question of social/emotional.

That is a huge part of school.

It's not just reading, writing and so on.

And just the lack of socialization, the lag, the loneliness.

There are studies nationally about the tragic numbers on increased suicides and depression, particularly among middle and high school kids.

What can be done now to address those issues?

Or is there anything that can be done?

- Well, I think that what we can draw from is that we actually do know a great deal about what works in supporting kids.

And I think the challenge of this time in many ways is how do we find creative ways to provide those supports in a way that has never been done before?

I love your story, Roblin, and just about the investment in adult mental health.

We know that the way teachers are treated will then be the kind of model of how they then work with kids.

We've known that for a long time.

On an academic front, we know a lot about how to teach kids how to read, right?

We know that phonics works.

We know that there are kind of just core interventions that kids need.

And we, not for lack of really hard work, but we weren't doing many of these things for all students prior to the pandemic.

And in many ways, I think, this becomes a moment where we can embrace what we've known we've needed in a different kind of way.

And there are many fronts to that.

Relationships and learning are inextricably linked.

We have to build on that as we design solutions.

We have to move learning forward.

Stop and go back doesn't work, we know that.

So how do we move forward with support?

We know that no plan is gonna work for everyone, and that schools need to be dynamic in meeting needs.

Those needs are broader and greater now than they've been in many ways, but that same need to have systems where you can talk to families, talk to kids, understand what they are, and then marshall energy and resources to support them is more badly needed than ever.

- Sean, to you, a question that will make me very unpopular with all this many, many, many students who watch Behind the Headlines every week, is this a time where we, as a country, need to be looking at ending the long summer breaks, right?

Hasn't the data shown again and again that in the best of times, at the best of schools, with the most supportive children, that there's a lot of backtracking that happens, can happen, and often does happen with students over the course of summers.

And so is this, there's all kinds of weird little things everyone has in their life or business that they will change permanently because of COVID.

They realize this, that, and the other thing they will carry forward.

Is this one that public school in America should carry forward.

- Yeah, I think it's not necessarily a one size fits all prescription.

I think if anything that this pandemic has shown, is that school systems have actually been, I think more nimble than we might've expected, and trying to provide different options.

And so I would hate to take away the summer vacation from every student, but I also think many students, especially if they're from households that are lower income, they're not necessarily going off to summer camp.

They're not necessarily going off on a grand tour to the Grand Canyon or something.

So providing them summer learning opportunities is a great thing to do.

And if the school systems can do that, maybe it's summer school, and not making summer school just sort of punitive or remedial, but really making it a time to re-engage students to allow them to do project-based learning tab, exponentially learning.

I think that would be a really positive thing.

And I would encourage districts to start thinking about that this summer.

Even as they're thinking about learning loss, actually, one way is maybe let's think about how to re-engage students, how to support their social, emotional health.

And just the last pitch I would make is too, is I think we ought to be really concerned about the students who are making transitions.

Whether it's graduating high school and going to college, or going into middle school.

And so I would think that's a great kind of thing for districts or other schools to think about.

Is what kind of programming can we do to help.

Even if the kids have technically graduated, what can we do to help them think about the summer, to think about how to go to college, community college, what workforce training programs do I wanna do?

Because I think there's gonna be a real gap there.

- Roblin, what do you hear from your teachers?

And you don't have to name anyone specific.

I wouldn't ask you to do that.

I mean, that's not fair, but what do you hear?

Are they anxious?

Are they sad?

Are they thriving with the challenge?

Is it a little of all that?

- Yep, so everything.

And it's interesting you asked.

We are doing two listening tours this week.

So I'm doing listening tours with our teacher community.

Just to hear how everyone's doing, how they're feeling.

And they're extremely anxious.

They read what's going on.

They see what's happening with the legislature.

They see what's happening with Shelby County Schools.

And we just did a listening tour to let them know that ideally, we would return when vaccines are available to educators.

But prior to that time if we have to, based on what's happening around us, then we will do it in the safest way possible.

But I will say that our teachers are extremely anxious.

We actually had a number of teachers say that they live with their immunocompromised families.

That their parents are immunocompromised and they're afraid to go back.

And the majority of ones said that they were anxious, and they had to decide whether they would choose between their health, or whether to go back into the classroom.

And so, you see a lot of the fights publicly, but I mean, these are real people in real lives, and they are deeply concerned about going back pretty much for their safety.

- And is that, I mean, obviously, I think I mentioned at the top COVID has hit black and brown communities harder than, you know, disproportionately.

I mean, does that weigh on the conversation?

Is that very much part of the conversation?

I don't mean presumptuous.

I assume the 90-plus percent of the students in Freedom Prep are black, family's black.

Is that front and center?

- Absolutely, absolutely.

So our community is about 90% African-American, 10% Latino.

And it definitely weighs on us.

And it's multi-generational households as well as too.

Part of our initiatives have been to say, now that they just recently opened a vaccination site in Whitehaven, is to make sure that we publicize that to our families and our parents.

But that weighs on us, on us heavily.

And in addition to that, the majority actually of my team, my Freedom Prep staff, are African-American or Latino as well too.

And so we understand the impact that's had on our communities, which is why it's weighing heavily just on this thinking about returning, and what returning safely would look like.

- All right, we can talk for a whole other hour.

I appreciate you all being here.

Again we have reached out to the SCS to get Dr. Joris Ray to come back on as well as the head of the Board.

And we have more people coming on talking about education next week and more of the public health and safety, kind of technical and scientific issues on that front.

And we've done past shows on these that you can get at wkno.org, or as podcasts from The Daily Memphian site.

Thanks for joining us and join us again next week.

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