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♪ Host: hey, everybody.

Welcome to ChatBox.

I am David Cruz.

This week seems to have been shot out of a cannon.

It started at the end of last week, corruption charges against Senator Bob Menendez, a no-confidence vote from his fellow Democrat elected officials urging him to resign.

One of them has already stepped forward to say he will challenge Menendez and the Democratic primary next year.

Andy Kim represents the third congressional district in South New Jersey, and he joins us now.

Good to see you again.

>> Good to see you too.

Host: all the state Democratic big shots got together last Friday.

They urged the senator to resign.

They must have thought of next steps.

Do you think your name came up in there?

>> I don't know.

I am not sure what they were thinking, but all I was trying to focus on was what I thought was best for New Jersey and the country.

I think it was important we send a quick and strong message that we do not stand by, so I am thankful to the Democratic leadership in New Jersey for taking that stand so quickly, so I appreciate their leadership and look forward to working with them on what we do next to try to repair the situation.

Host: why go out there on your own.

You are a party guy.

Why not take a few meetings, make a few phone calls?

Why jump out so quickly Saturday morning?

>> For me, I am glad we took the steps that we did on Friday.

So many of us called for him to step down.

I believe it was the right thing to do.

But then Senator Menendez a very quickly came back to us and at us with a very aggressive statement accusing us as well as saying -- I think is last line was I am not going anywhere.

And I really did feel that very forceful and immediate response from the senator deserved a forceful and immediate response to say that this does not stand, and this is not what we stand for, and he is going to be held accountable.

And if he is not going to step down, and it will help in -- happen at the ballot box.

I had to pull that together in a matter of hours.

My mom and dad did not know I was doing this until the tweet came out, but I just felt it needed to happen quickly and that the country needed to see that New Jersey was moving quickly to try to repair the situation.

So I am going to do whatever I can do to try and fix this.

Host: so was part of it the way he said it?

That is kind of what I hear from you?

>> Yeah, when he had that kind of defiant tone and that I am not going anywhere, it just did not sit well with me honestly.

That last line in particular.

It kept me up all night long.

I did not get a minute of sleep Friday and Saturday.

I think what bothered me is it sounds like he says that he owns the seat.

This is a seat, and that is not true.

It belongs to the people of New Jersey who have entrusted him with this, and I think that is really at the core of what rubbed me wrong is that this is not just about what he did.

It is about his whole approach about public service in this way that I think was so different than mine, and I think right now we live in a time of the greatest amount of distrust government in American history.

So many people in New Jersey and across this country with so much hesitation, so much concerned about how our politics are unfolding.

We need to show there is a way we can have politics that cannabis or integrity, and that is what I hope we can do.

Host: we should say for folks watching this is very much a political party process that is happening right now.

In that context, did you talk to many party leaders, governor, Cory Booker, or any of them before you decided?

>> I gave them a heads up before I did this, but I felt conviction and felt compelled to do what I did.

In many ways it actually reminded me of 2017.

In 2017, my Congressman at the time, Carter -- tom MacArthur took actions on health care.

I immediately launched a tweet that said I am considering challenging him in Congress.

I think I had 21 Twitter followers at the time.

I had no deep ties with the Democratic Party, and certainly do leadership in New Jersey, but I felt like it was the right thing to do, and I felt that same kind of conviction this time around too, that I had to make sure I did everything I could do to be able to try to remedy this problem and do it anyway with the agency I thought -- urgency I thought the moment needed.

I have had a great outpouring across the state in the country.

People responded and knew we needed to have that kind of boldness and strength to show unequivocally that this is something that we do not stand for.

So I have been excited and encouraged by that.

Host: get those party leaders tried to dissuade you at all?

>> No one tried to dissuade me.

Host: I have also heard more than once from people I've been talking to, granted a lot of these are longtime Menendez supporters that your announcement was a lot like dancing on someone's political grave.

How do you respond to that?

>> People are entitled to their opinion, but what I hope the people of New Jersey see is that I did this because I thought it was important that we show that this is not something that the people of New Jersey believe elected official should be acting and that we have concerns about from what we have seen his ability to continue to do that job, so I try to approach this with a lot of seriousness.

Host: then there is the multibillion-dollar Murphy question.

What is the potential of a Tammy Murphy candidacy due to your plans?

>> I know there are a number of different people who still might be considering that.

A number of them are colleagues of mine.

I have known them for a number of years.

I have deep respect for them, so I hope they make their decision in the same way that I did, which is what is best for New Jersey, as for the country.

I respect that.

For me, I am going to be seeing this through, so I will be running for the United States Senate no matter what happens.

This is something I feel very strongly about, and like I said, there is been a tremendous amount of empathy, excitement, a lot of people reaching out, and I think we can build an incredible movement, and I won three of the toughest races in the state.

I won a district that Trump won twice.

I was able to win it despite Trump winning it.

I outperformed Joe Biden by eight points and Menendez by nine points.

Host: that is in your district for sure, but there is also the sense that you will need to win the line in enough counties to be competitive, which has proven to be impossible to overcome on a statewide level.

How concerned are you about that?

And another candidate's ability to come in and offer more to party leaders in order to get the party line, which we can talk about the party line in his second, but that is a big advantage?

Are you concerned about that?

>> I am not concerned.

We will see what happens, and I have my communication with the different chairs and others across the state, tell them what it is I'm doing, but I am also going to run the strongest campaign I can possibly do, and I have a lot of good experience in doing that, so I am not going to get concerned about that.

Host: you also came up recently saying you would abolish the line.

This is something that is in the courts right now.

Why would you say that?

What is the difference for those who may not know between having the party line when you were running for U.S. Senate in a primary and not having it?

>> Yeah, look, it was an interview I did a couple of days ago.

In fact, it was before Menendez 's indictment came out.

It shows this is not something I was planning on doing, but I think how I framed it was I really want to make sure that we are trying to do everything we can to empower the citizen and trying to make sure that they are able to have the kind of voice of a need in our democracy, so I do think there are reforms we can do when it comes to our ballot, when it comes to campaign-finance, gerrymandering, and other issues and I hope people agree with me that people make sure that we are taking the steps to ensure and protect and strengthen our democracy.

That is what I believe, and it is something I have been working on very intensely hearing Congress on anticorruption, ethics reform, good governance issues, and I think the vast majority of Americans on both sides of the aisle agree we need to make these types of changes.

Host: let me ask you about your day job.

This potential government shutdown.

The Senate passed a so-called stopgap spending bill to avoid is shut down, but it is dead on arrival in the house, because in order to pass at the Speaker of the house would need to work with Democrats to get votes, but if he does that his fellow Republicans are going to kick him out of the speaker see?

Is that about right?

>> Yes, that is about right.

The Senate came to an agreement.

I do not mean to laugh, because it is extremely serious and there is a lot at stake, but when you frame it to me in that kind of way, it is crazy.

Again, this is the kind of stuff that the American people cannot stand.

The people in New Jersey are asking you, what is happening down there in D.C.?

How is this normal?

The riches, most powerful country in the world potentially early this year defaulting on our debt, not paying our bills, not sure if we can get a budget route.

It is so frustrating that we are here, but we are in a situation now where McCarthy the speaker needs to decide is he going to support and protect our country, or is he going to try and protect his own job?

And I hope he makes the right decision for the country, but based off of what I have seen him do before, I do not have great confidence in that right now.

Host: so it seems to me you are saying that a government shutdown, which we could pretty well established is bad for a lot of people, bad for more people then it is good for other people, is that what we are looking at going into this weekend?

>> Yeah, look, I do not like to make productions, but right now I would say there was a very good chance there will be a shutdown, which breaks my heart.

I was sworn into government in 2019 during the longest government shutdown in American history.

I used to be a federal worker.

I have worked through shutdowns, including having to show up for work and not knowing that I would get paid for the time of work that I would put in, putting an enormous amount of strain on service member families, government families, monsignors -- on seniors that rely on programs that Meals on Wheels and other things.

It is so scary to think about the fact that this is going to hurt people.

When we look at Kevin McCarthy, it looks like they are playing with someone else's chips.

Host: what is the potential impact in New Jersey?

>> In New Jersey, we are looking at potential cuts when it comes to services for seniors, Meals on Wheels, something that will get cut.

We would have a lot of problems with federal employees in terms of the challenges that they will be facing.

At last time around, we had government employees, Coast Guard members and others who had to go to food pantries to provide for their families, which would be detrimental.

Challenges, certain types of teachers, workers that will not be able to get paid, so this is a real problem, and this is going to have a real effect at a time when you need to be doing everything we can to try and show strength and stability in our economy, in our governance, it is such a shame that we have these self-inflicted wounds that are really hurting our country.

Host: and so all of that in the context of forthcoming elections on the federal level.

We in New Jersey, of course, are facing a legislative election in the fall.

Republicans feeling very resurgent in New Jersey nowadays.

He would evolve yourself a little bit in this.

How do you think things are going, and should Democrats be concerned as they prepare for legislative elections in the fall here?

>> Every election I have been a part of, it is always important to not take anything for granted , but I hope that the voters here in New Jersey see the strength of the programs, the leadership of the state in terms of what they have done to provide from the Governor on down and certainly from the federal level we try to provide as much as we can through the state through the infrastructure lot that was bipartisan, and to rebuild our roads, bridges, tunnels.

A lot of investments that we are making, so I am hoping that the people see that and not get distracted by some of the different partisan attacks that are always it is to distract people from core issues about what we can do to help people, what can we do to help New Jersey families?

Host: Congressman Andy Kim says he is running right through the tape.

Good to see you.

See you out there.

>> Thanks for having me.

Host: let's bring in a Republican state senator up for reelection in the fall and a keen observer of our state's crazy political world.

Good to see you.

Welcome back to the show.

>> Thanks for having me, David.

Host: you are a defense attorney and a politician.

Everyone says Menendez is done.

Is Menendez done?

>> When your own governor and running mate: I spend loyal to you say you have got to go, it is not looking very good from a political standpoint, and the criminal indictment is pretty rough too, trying to defend that.

So if he can get out of these two Janice, he is a Superman.

Host: this indictment is much more specific than the last one, right?

>> No question about it, and here they will have a narrator.

The biggest issue in criminal cases is you need someone on the stand two point two the defendant and say he did it.

In the last case, no one got on the stand and said he did it, and that is why I think there was a hung jury in the first case.

Host: we just heard from Andy Kim.

He is challenging Menendez in the primary.

The state's first lady also expected to jump in.

Some have suggested that it is a little bit unseemly.

The guy is still in office, and everyone is jumping into his political grave.

That is a metaphor he used.

>> Everyone plays political futures in the state and around the cover -- country.

If John says he is not running four years from now, people stopped talking to you.

They are always playing for the next game.

The real issue is if Menendez does not stay, then the governor appoint somebody.

Who does he appoint?

If Tammy Murphy wants to be Senator, my guess is she will get the appointment from the governor, but if it is a primary I do not see the governor's wife running and it just as a practical political situation.

Host: I went to get to that in a second, but let me ask you because we are asking everybody, is it a run that you would consider, U.S. Senate?

>> The problem is this.

Trump is likely to be on the ticket or somebody likes to run.

I do not think I can run low Trump, because I have never endorsed Trump.

I am probably a never Trumper.

You are not running against Menendez.

You are running against the next person, because there was no chance Menendez will get the line.

People call me all the time, are you going to run?

Yeah, if Menendez is running...

But if he is not running.

You could be running against... Tammy Murphy, so I still think for a Republican, they would probably have to be aligned with Trump if he is the nominee, and I am not aligned with him.

Host: which of another question.

You mentioned the governor, the Democratic leadership.

They all got together after the indictment was announced.

Did Republicans have a similar meeting in New Jersey?

>> Normally, and you have heard this, when the other side is committing suicide, you normally do not try to get them.

Here is the dilemma for the Washington Republicans.

They will have a tough time saying that the Justice Department is whipping us against President Trump and then somehow criticized Bob Menendez.

This is what happens in politics.

You never know what side of the fence you are going to be on.

One of the reasons you do not you a lot of Republicans I think -- Jimmy -- to me I am happy to say someone with that kind of evidence should resign, but Democrats are worried about that being inconsistent with the Trump situation.

Host: is that why we are hearing less from Republicans jumping at the bit to take on Menendez or a Democrat next fall?

>> I think there are two reasons.

One, Menendez is in trouble, the Democrats are going after him.

It makes no sense for the Republicans to speak up, because there is a senator who appears from the allegations to be corrupt.

Why do you need the Republicans to chime in when his own running mate Cory Booker is talking about it?

And two, once again, there is this unfortunate anti-U.S. attorney kind of feeling in many parts of the Republican Party.

I don't believe it.

I think the Justice Department and FBI are pretty much pretty good, but one of the reasons I think you did not give anything is that.

Host: a senator is reviving a proposal that would provide for the temporary suspension and replacement of an indicted elective official.

Another senator on the other side is thinking of legislation regarding developers contributing to campaigns, but you cannot legislate yourself out of this kind of behavior, can you?

There are stiff penalties for being corrupt now.

>> Look, I have faith in the Justice Department, let me tell you.

It is still an indictment.

You can indict a ham sandwich.

I will take each case as it is presented.

Someone could get indicted, and guess what, they could be wrong.

A person good to be not guilty, so I am not rushing to judgment or throwing people out simply because they were indicted.

I still think they have the right to defend themselves, but if there is overwhelming evidence, Menendez can be expelled by 2/3 of the Senate, so there is a way of removing people from office.

An indictment on its face may not be enough.

Host: as we look at the fall elections, Senate, Democrats have a clear standard-bearer, but Republicans I feel like there are more factions, no?

>> There may be factions, but all of the polling I see, the generic ballot, meaning Republican versus Democrat is in the best place I have seen in the decade, so I know the Democrats are nervous.

There are a number of issues that are out there that they have to defend, and once the Democratic Party goes too far to the left, there is a pendulum, and I think it is swinging back to the middle where I am, so I think the Democrats are worried.

I have no doubt we will be picking up seeds because the Democrats are not the Democrats of your parents' generation.

Host: what kind of Republican are you, and they say I am a New Jersey Republican.

What does that mean to be a New Jersey Republican?

Are you on the left side generally, the side generally?

What is a New Jersey Republican?

>> I cannot speak to any other New Jersey Republican, I can tell you people like Governor Kane, Leonard Lance, even Christie Whitman, these were not angry people.

They did not hit the Democrats.

They may have been moderates.

New Jersey Republicans I think are generally who win statewide are moderates.

They tend to be slightly on the conservative side slightly, but generally we are not all right wing state in New Jersey, and I think elections have proven that.

But we should also focus on what the issue is.

People want to label you.

What issue are we talking about?

Bottom line here is Tom Kane Sr. and people like that are my idols.

Host: we had the second Republican presidential debate this week.

How do you think your guided?

Chris Christie?

>> I think he did OK, but he was my concern.

If they want a real debate, turn off the microphone when the person is speaking out of line.

If these alleged news people, if they do not want a food fight, turn off the microphone.

Let's hear what everyone has to say, and now it is a free-for-all.

It is a disgrace, an embarrassment.

Stop having a food fight, have a debate.

Turn off the microphone on somebody.

There is no penalty for starting a riot.

Host: how did he do?

It feels like he really has to hit a home run, and I do not think in these first two debates -- he has had a couple of good lines.

I'm not sure they are calling Donald is Donald Duck a winner, but is he helping themselves?

>> It is tough nationally when you see how popular Donald Trump is, and Chris Christie is speaking the truth, and you see what happens when he does that.

Consequently, he is God an uphill battle because of this I call it a Trump cold, and he is fighting against the cold.

-- cult.

I do not think there is anyone he says that it is an easy task to go against Donald Trump in a fog generated debate where they are all Republicans.

The rest of them are afraid to say anything negative against Trump even though he was an instigator for January 6.

I give him credit for speaking up, it is difficult.

Host: we will see how it goes in the weeks and months ahead.

Good to see him again.

Thank you for coming on.

That is Chat Box for this week.

Thanks to Andy Kim for joining us.

All of us on X and get more exclusive content, including full episodes when you scan the QR code on your screen.

I am David Cruz.

For all the crew here in downtown Newark, thank you for watching.

>> Major funding for Chat Box by David crude is provided by the New Jersey education Association, making public schools great for every child.

Promotional support is provided by insider NJ, a political intelligence network dedicated to New Jersey political news.

Insider NJ is committed to giving serious political players an interactive forum for ideas, discussion, and insight.

Online at insidernj.com.

♪