♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ WHAT IS DRIVING KENTUCKY'S OUTSIZED MASS INCARCERATION RATES, THE HIGHEST IN THE NATION?

A DEEP DIVE FROM THE "COURIER JOURNAL" POINTS TO ONE FACTOR, KENTUCKY'S PERSISTENT FELONY LAW.

WHAT IS IT?

IS IT FAIR AND WHO DOES IT IMPACT THE MOST?

ANSWERS FROM JONATHAN BULLINGTON WITH THE "COURIER JOURNAL" NOW ON CONNECTIONS.

>> Renee: I'M RENEE SHAW, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON CONNECTIONS.

THE PHILOSOPHY OF BEING TOUGH ON CRIME IS NOTHING NEW BUT ARE LAWS UNJUSTLY TOUGH ON CRIMINALS ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDERS.

AN EXCLUSIVE ANALYSIS OF 40 YEARS OF P.F.O.

CASES WITH THE INSTITUTE OF JUSTICE AND "COURIER JOURNAL" LINK THE OVERCROWDING TO THE LAWS.

IS IT THE REASON THE COMMONWEALTH HAS THE HIGHEST INCARCERATION RATES IN THE WORLD AND TAKES ABOUT A HALF BILLION-DOLLAR TOLL ON THE STATE?

AN ENTERPRISING PIECE OF THE "COURIER JOURNAL" TRACES THE IMPACT OF THIS LAW ON THE RENEWED PUSH TO CHANGE IT.

AND I'M GLAD TO WELCOME JONATHAN BULLINGTON OF THE PUTSER PRIZE WINNING "COURIER JOURNAL" TO DISCUSS THIS INSIGHTFUL ISSUE AND THE MEDIA COLLABORATION FORUM WITH PUBLIC BROADCASTING INDEPENDENT TELEVISION SERVICE TO TELL THE LAW'S HISTORY AND EVEN GENERATION ALGORITHM IMPACT-- GENERATIONAL IMPACT.

IT IS A PLEASURE TO MEET YOU.

SORRY IT'S BY SKYPE.

WE'LL HAVE TO GET TOGETHER IN PERSON SOON.

BUT THIS IS TRULY AN ENTERPRISING HARD HITTING PIECE OF JOURNALISM SO CONGRATULATIONS ON WHAT COULD BE ANOTHER PULITZER PRIZE WIN FOR YOU, SIR.

>> THANK YOU.

I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THAT BUT I APPRECIATE IT.

VERY NICE OF YOU AND THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHERE DID THIS ALL START AND WHY PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDERS?

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM EFFORTS AND ALL THE WAYS WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT SENTENCING REFORM AND REENTRY LAWS AND ISSUES, HOW DID YOU GET TO-- WHAT LED TO YOU P.F.O.?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

WE STARTED DOWN THIS PATH A WHILE AGO AND IT WAS REALLY ME AND TWO OF MY COLLEAGUES MATT AND CHRIS WE STARTED THINKING ABOUT A PROJECT WE WANTED TO DO ABOUT KENTUCKY'S SKY HIGH INCARCERATION RATE.

AS YOU MENTIONED AT THE START, WE HAVE ONE OF THE WORLD'S HIGHEST RATES OF INCARCERATION.

WE SPEND HALF A BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR ON OUR CORRECTIONS BUDGET THERE IS A STARK RACIAL DISPARITY IN OUR PRISON AND JAIL POPULATIONS SO OUR BASIC FRAMEWORK TO START THE PROJECT IS HOW DID WE GET HERE?

HOW ABOUT ALL OF THIS HAPPEN MATT, CHRIS AND I STARTED REACHING OUT TO PEOPLE WE KNEW, PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SPHERE, PEOPLE WHO HAD DEALT WITH PRISON AND JAIL ISSUES AND WE TOLD THEM WHAT WE WERE INTERESTED IN AND THEN WE JUST SHUT UP AND LISTENS AND ASK THEM-FOR-THEIR IDEAS WHAT WAS DRIVING INCARCERATION IN KENTUCKY.

AND WITHOUT FAIL, PRETTY MUCH EVERY PERSON WE TALKED TO, THEY BROUGHT UP THE PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDER LAW.

TOLD US HOW THEY THOUGHT IT WAS ONE OF THE PRIME EXAMPLES OF THESE SORT OF PUNITIVE LAWS IN KENTUCKY THAT ARE DRIVING THAT INCARCERATION RATE.

SO YOU KNOW, THE MORE WE TALKED TO THOSE PEOPLE, THE MORE MATT, CHRIS AND I STARTED TO THINK THAT MAYBE WE SHOULD SORT OF CENTER A SERIES AROUND THE PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDER LAW AND USE IT AS AN ENTRY WAY TO DISCUSS LARGER ISSUES OF INCARCERATION CRIME AND PUNISHMENT IN A QUOTE UNQUOTE TOUGH ON CRIME LAWS.

ET CETERA.

>> SO ALL THE PEOPLE THAT YOU TALKED TO AND I KNOW THAT THE SCORES PROBABLY NOT HUNDREDS THAT YOU SPOKE TO ABOUT THIS ISSUE, WERE PROSECUTORS AND DEFENSE ATTORNEYS ALIGNED WITH THE THINKING THAT P.F.O.

LAWS ARE TO BLAME FOR SOME OF THIS MASS INCARCERATION RATE THAT KENTUCKY IS CURRENTLY SEEING?

FOR WHAT IT, THE MASS INCARCERATION IN KENTUCKY, THAT, OF COURSE, DEPENDS ON WHO YOU TALK TO.

I THINK EVERYBODY EVERYONE WE SPOKE TO, THEY POINTED TO THIS AS ONE OF THE PRIME EXAMPLES OF, LIKE I SAID, THESE TOUGH ON CRIME LAWS THAT ARE DIFFICULT TO TRY TO PULL BACK FROM, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, THEY TALK ABOUT SOME LAWS THAT YOU CAN CHANGE TO SORT OF REDUCE THE PRISONER AND JAIL POPULATION BUT P.F.O.

WAS THE IDEA THAT SOMETHING THAT WAS A MUCH TOUGHER SELL FOR PEOPLE TO GET THEIR HEADS AROUND IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, DOES THIS NEED TO BE PULLED BACK?

HAS IT GOTTEN TOO FAR AWAY FROM ITS ORIGINAL INTENT?

>> SO JONATHAN, THAT IS A VERY GOOD POINT, I WAS GOING TO HIT THAT POINT BECAUSE WHEN WE HEAR THE LEXICON PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDER.

SOUNDS PRETTY SERIOUS.

SOUND LIKE SOMEONE WHO HAS A PRETTY STEEP RECORD OF OFFENSES OF SIZEABLE MAGNITUDE, RIGHT?

SO WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDER AND DOES-- DO THE SENTENCES THAT SEEM TO BE COMPOUNDING MATCH THE GRAVITY OF THE CRIME?

>> WELL, SO A LOT OF STATES HAVE VERSIONS OF THESE SORTS OF LAWS THAT PUNISH PEOPLE FOR PAST CRIMES, THAT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE CRIMINAL HISTORY OF A PERSON WHEN SENTENCING.

I THINK MOST OF US ARE FAMILIAR WITH THREE STRIKES LAWS OR HABITUAL OFFENDER LAWS.

THINGS LIKE THAT.

I THINK WHAT MAKES KENTUCKY'S UNIQUE IS THAT TO BE CONSIDERED A QUOTE UNQUOTE PERSISTENT FELON, YOU REALLY ONLY HAVE TO HAVE ONE PRIOR FEM FELONY OFFENSE ON YOUR RECORD WITHIN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME, OF COURSE.

SO IT'S REALLY SORT OF A TWO STRIKE LAW AND THREE STRIKES LAW.

THERE ARE DEGREES.

FIRST DEGREE AND SECOND DEGREE P.F.O.

AND FOR THE SECOND DEGREE P.F.O., YOU ONLY NEED ONE PREVIOUS FELONY OFFENSE TO BE CONSIDERED A PERSISTENT FELON AND TO SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY PUSHING TO REFORM THIS LAW, I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MORE CONCERNING BITS AND WHY THEY THINK KENTUCKY'S IS ONE OF THE BROADER HABITUAL OFFENDER TYPE LAWS IN THE COUNTRY.

>> Renee: I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, TOO, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PERSISTENT OFFENDER, FELONY OFFENDER AND HABITUAL CRIMINAL?

ARE THEY THE SAME OR DOES ONE LEAD TO THE OTHER IN SOME WAY WHAT IS THE CONNECTION?

>> I THINK IT'S THE SAME.

JUST DEPENDS WHERE YOU ARE IN KENTUCKY WE CALL IT PERSISTENT.

BUT AGAIN IT'S ONLY ONE PREVIOUS FELONY ON YOUR SECOND WOULD QUALIFY YOU IN THE EYES OF THE STATE AS A QUOTE UNQUOTE PERSISTENT FELON AND WE FOUND PLENTY OF EXAMPLES INCLUDING THE MAIN CHARACTER IN ONE OF THE FIRST STORIES OF THE SERIES, MARCUS JACKSON.

WHO HE WAS LABELED A PERSISTENT FELON BY THE STATE ON HIS SECOND OFFENSE.

AND HIS DAD THE STATE TRIED TO TACK THE LABEL ON HIS SECOND OFFENSE SO THERE ARE PLENTY OF EXAMPLES LIKE THAT.

>> Renee: AND IF I COULD PUT A PAUSE RIGHT THERE BECAUSE WE DO HAVE A PIECE, ABOUT THREE AND A HALF OF THE STORY OF MARCUS JACKSON WHO IS NOW AN ADVOCATE FOR F.P.O.

LAW CHANGES AND WORKS FOR THE ACLU OF KENTUCKY AND HERE IS JUST PART OF HIS STORY AS TOLD BY ITVS.

IT'S WHILE RIGHT ACROSS THERE WHAT I WENT TO PRISON FOR FOR 13 YEARS IS NOW LEGAL.

I WOULD BE A BUSINESSMAN OVER IN ILLINOIS.

I'M A CONVICTED FELON IN KENTUCKY.

I'M FROM PADUCAH KENTUCKY, I LOVE KENTUCKY BUT BEE HAVE SOME BACKWARDS LAWS IN THIS STATE AND IF IS AMONG THE WORST.

IT'S BASICALLY KENTUCKY'S VERSION OF THE THREE STRIKES LAW UNLEASHED WITH HARSH MANNED MANDATORY MINIMUMS AND IMPACTS FAMILIES ACROSS THE STATE.

PEOPLE DON'T TALK ABOUT THE PAIN OF FAMILIES.

I KNOW IT BECAUSE I LIVED IT.

I LOST 10 YEARS OF MY LIFE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN SPENT WITH MY MOTHER, WITH MY KIDS AND EVEN AS A KID I WATCHED AS MY FATHER WAS TAKEN FROM MY HOME BECAUSE OF THIS LAW.

>> 30 SECONDS.

>> THIS IS THE ORIGINAL STATUTE.

PERSISTENT FELONY STATUTE.

THAT'S WHAT THE CURRENT LAW IS.

THAT RIGHT THERE IS JUST HAS A LOT OF PEOPLE INCARCERATED FOR EXTENDED PERIODS OF TIME.

IT'S HORRIBLE.

>> IT IS HORRIBLE.

>> AND I'VE HAD IT, YOU KNOW.

I LIVED IT.

>> YOU KNOW, I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE.

I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE.

>> AND THIS IS OUR DRAFT, AND THESE ARE THE CHANGES THAT WE FEEL ARE NECESSARY THAT WOULD MAKE THIS LAW SO MUCH BETTER IF WE GET TO THE FLOOR, WE APPRECIATE YOUR VOTE.

>> OF COURSE I'LL VOTE FOR IT AND I'M HAPPY TO CONVINCE THE SPONSOR IF YOU DON'T HAVE SOMEBODY LINED UP BUT HONESTLY THERE IS A WHOLE SYSTEM THAT MAKES A LOT OF PEOPLE A LOT OF MONEY AND WE GET A LOT OF FEDERAL MONEY SO NOW YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BOTTOM LINES AND BUDGETS.

THAT'S WHERE ALL OF THAT OPPOSITION IS GOING TO COME FROM GETTING THEM TO EVEN GIVE IS A HEARING, RIGHT WOULD BE A BIG STEP.

REMOVING SO MANY FATHERS FROM THE HOUSEHOLDS NOT JUST MY FAMILY BUT FAMILIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, ACROSS THE WHOLE UNITED STATES ARE FALLING INTO THIS IT SEEMS LIKE THE BLACK FAMILY DOESN'T MEAN AS MUCH WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SYSTEMS IN PLACE.

I REMEMBER SITTING IN THE COURTROOM WITH ONE OF MY CASES.

THE PERSON WHO WENT BEFORE ME, THEY TALKED ABOUT THE FAMILY STRUCTURE AND THE JUDGE SENTENCED HIM, DIDN'T WANT HIM TO GO AWAY BECAUSE OF HIS TIES TO THE COMMUNITY, HIS FAMILY, HIS CHILDREN WOULD SUFFER SO ON AND SO FORTH BUT WE DON'T GET THE SAME CONSIDERATIONS AND IT'S LIKE-- IT JUST MADE ME MAD.

THEY LABEL ME PERSISTENT OFFENDER.

CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT NOW BUT WHAT CAN I DO, THEY SHOWED ME WHAT IT MEANS TO BE PERSISTENT.

I WON'T STOP UNTIL THIS LAW GOES AWAY AND STOPS DESTROYING FAMILIES.

>> I WANT YOU TO GIVE US GREATER CONTEXT THERE, JONATHAN TO MARCUS' CASE WHICH IS NOT UNFAMILIAR TO THE THOUSANDS THAT YOU ALL HAVE REVIEWED.

THE ANALYSIS YOU DID WITH THE VE ARE RA-- VERA INSTITUTE, THOSE ACCUSED OF LOW LEVEL FELONIES, DRUG POSSESSION, PROPERTY CRIMES.

HOW DID THIS GET TO THIS POINT AND IS THIS WHAT THE ORIGINAL ARCHITECT OF THE P.F.O.

LAW BACK IN THE 70s, ROBERT LAWSON, WHO IS ALMOST AN HISTORICAL FIGURE AND OF ITSELF, THIS IS WHAT HE ENVISIONED IT OPERATING AS?

>> THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.

IT'S NOT.

AS YOU MENTIONED-- TO BACK UP QUICKLY, KENTUCKY HAD A VERSION OF THE HABITUAL OFFENDER LAW PRIOR TO 1974.

AND IT WAS THE BEST OF MY MEMORY, MORE AKIN TO THE TRADITIONAL THREE STRIKES LAWS YOU HEAR IN OTHER STATES WHERE UPON THAT THIRD FELONY CONVICTION SOMEONE CAN BE PUT AWAY FOR LIFE IN PRISON.

SO THEN LATE 60s, EARLY 70s, THE STATE DECIDES TO REWRITE ITS AGING CRIMINAL CODE AND ROBERT LAWSON IS TASKED WITH LEADING THAT EFFORT SO HE REWRITES, I THINK, IN 74 IS WHEN IT IS CREATED, HIS VERSION OF THE PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDER LAW.

AND THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN THE CURRENT LAW IN A COUPLE OF VERY KEY WAYS.

YOU HAD TO HAVE TWO PREVIOUS FELONY CONVICTIONS AND ON YOUR THIRD CONVICTION IS WHEN THE P.F.O.

COULD BE USED.

IN THE TWO PRIOR FELONY CONVICTIONS, THE PERSON HAD TO HAVE ACTUALLY SPENT TIME BEHIND BARS SO NO KIND OF SUSPENDED SENTENCES OR PROBATION OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

THE IDEA, ACCORDING TO LAWSON, BEING THAT WE WANTED TRY EVERY EFFORT AT REABTATION.

AND THEN IF YOU GO TO PRISON AND YOU COME OUT, YOU GO TO PRISON AGAIN AND COME OUT AND ON THE THIRD TIME YOU HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF A FELONY, THAT'S WHEN THE HARSHER SENTENCES WOULD KICK IN FOR P.F.O., WHICH ESSENTIALLY SO ON THE THIRD CONVICTION YOU GET 10 YEARS, P.F.O.

COULD BUMP IT UP TO 20.

THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF THE LAW BUT IT QUICKLY CHANGED FROM THERE BY 1976, THEY EXPAND THE THE LAWS.

THEY CREATED THE SECOND DEGREE P.F.O.

THAT SAID YOU ONLY HAD TO HAVE ONE PRIOR FELONY CONVICTION FOR P.F.O.

TO BE USED IN THAT SECOND FELONY AND THEY GOT RID OF THE REQUIREMENT THAT YOU HAVE TO SERVE TIME AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED WITH MARCUS HERE.

MARCUS' THIRD CONVICTION, IT WAS ENHANCED WITH THE FIRST DEGREE P.F.O.

AND HE HAD TO SERVE A MINIMUM OF 10 YEARS BEFORE HE COULD EVEN BE ELIGIBLE TO SEE THE PAROLE BOARD.

THOSE WERE THE BIG CHANGES THEY MADE IN '76 AND AS LAWSON WOULD LATER WRITE, IT WAS QUICKLY PUT TO US.

I DON'T HAVE THE FIGURES IN FRONT OF ME BUT HE SAID THAT IN 1980 IT WAS ONLY LIKE 60 OR SOME ODD PEOPLE BEHIND BARS HAD BEEN THERE BECAUSE OF A P.F.O.

AND FOUR YEARS LATER, THAT NUMBER JUMPED UP TO LIKE 1100 OR SOMETHING SO YOU COULD SEE HOW IT WAS QUICKLY BEING USED AND ALL OF THIS IS SORT OF, REMEMBER THIS IS 1974, 75, 76 WE ARE REALLY GETTING INTO THE SO CALLED WAR ON DRUGS, 1980s.

A LOT OF EXPANDED CRIMINAL CODE HERE IN KENTUCKY, HARSHER SENTENCES, MANDATORY MINIMUMS FOLLOWING UP THE WAR ON DRUGS WITH THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC HERE IN KENTUCKY.

YOU CAN SEE HOW THIS LAW THAT WAS THERE AS A TOOL FOR PROSECUTORS TO USE IN THE SUBSEQUENT DECADES AND.

THE POINT MADE WAS IN 2020, KENTUCKY'S VIOLENT CRIME RATE WAS LESS THAN HALF WHAT IT WAS AT THE PEAK IN 1992 YET P.F.O.

CASES MORE THAN TRIPLED DURING THAT TIME BEFORE TRAILING OFF WHEN THE PANDEMIC STRUCK.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM AND HOW WE ARE SUPPOSED TO, THE DRIVING FACTOR IS HOW DO WE REDUCE THE OVERCROWDING AND MASS INCARCERATION RATES BUT WE ARE GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION AND IT SEEMS AND I'VE HEARD AND YOU QUOTED THE KENTUCKY CENTER FOR ECONOMIC POLICY THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, EVEN WHEN KENTUCKY DECLARED WE WERE IN THE MODE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, WE HAVE KEPT ENHANCING PENALTIES FOR WHETHER IT'S DRUG POSSESSION OR OTHER CRIMES AND THAT'S GOING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF THE INTENT OF REDUCING THE AMOUNT OF OCCUPANCY AND THOSE PRISON AND JAIL CELLS.

THE LAW HAS BEEN USED THE WAY IT WAS ORIGINALLY INTENDED?

IS IT STOO BROADLY APPLIED?

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE ARE CERTAINLY VALID QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT ARE WE TO DO WHEN SOMEBODY CONTINUALLY BREAKS THE LAW AND I HOPE THOSE ARE SOME OF THE QUESTIONS WE BROUGHT UP FOR DISCUSSION IN THE SERIES AND THAT WILL CONTINUE TO BE HAD HERE IN KENTUCKY HOW DO WE BALANCE THIS IDEA OF REHABILITATION OVER PUNISHMENT AND HOW DO WE PAL BALANCE THESE COMPETING NEEDS TO SORT OF KEEP PEOPLE SAFE BUT ALSO LIMIT THE HARM OF INCARCERATION BECAUSE LET'S BE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS.

EVERY YEAR SOMEBODY IS BEHIND BARS, THE EFFECTS OF THAT, THE RIPPLE OF THAT ARE DEVASTATING AND IT'S NOT JUST THAT INDIVIDUAL OR THEIR FAMILY, IT EXTENDED FAMILIES, FRIENDS, COMMUNITIES, NEIGHBORHOODS, BLOCKS, THE EFFECTS REALLY ARE EXTEND FAR AND WIDE.

YOU SEE IT IN MARCUS' FAMILY'S STORY AND STORIES ACROSS THIS COUNTRY.

AND IT'S GENERATIONAL, RIGHT?

MARCUS' FATHER CAME UNDER THE P.F.O., I BELIEVE THAT MAYBE HIS SON SO WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE WHEN THERE SEEMS TO BE ALMOST A FAMILY LEGACY OF THIS?

>> YEAH, AGAIN, MARCUS' DAD STORY IS REALLY HEART BREAKING AS IT IS ALL TOO COMMON IN THIS STATE AND MANY OTHERS, WHERE YOU KNOW, HE HAD A STABLE RESPECTED CITY JOB IN PADUCAH, KENTUCKY, AND YOU KNOW, HE TOLD ME HE HURT HIS LEG ONE DAY AT WORK AND THE DOCTORS PRESCRIBED HIM PAIN KILLERS AND WHEN THE PAIN KILLERS RAN OUT, HE STARTED TO SELF MEDICATE AND THAT HE SAID LED HIM DOWN A PATH TO ADDICTION AND WHEN WE COOPERATE AFFORD DRUGS, HE STARTED SELLING.

HE GETS ARRESTED?

HE GETS CAUGHT IN THE CYCLE AND THAT LEADS TO PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDER ENHANCEMENT ON HIM.

MARCUS NOW GROWS UP.

HIS DAD IS BEHIND BARS.

MARCUS GETS IN TROUBLE IN 1990 OR 91 WAS HIS FIRST ARREST.

HE WAS ACCUSED OF SHOOTING.

HE MAINTAINS HE WASN'T INNOCENT IN ALL OF THAT.

AND HAS RECEIVED AFFIDAVITS TO SUPPORT THAT CLAIM.

BUT HE GETS CAUGHT IN THAT SAME CYCLE.

MARCUS' BROTHER WAS INCARCERATED AND ENHANCED BY P.F.O.

AND MARK ICE SON AARON WHO IS CURRENTLY BINNED BEHIND BARS WAS RECENTLY ACCUSED OF I THINK BRINGING CONTRABAND INTO A PRISON.

I THINK THEY SAID HE MAYBE HAD LIKE A CELL PHONE.

VIDEO OF WHAT LOOKED TO BE A CELL PHONE AND PROSECUTORS ARE TRYING TO ENHANCE THAT SENTENCE BY P.F.O., THIS IS CERTAINLY INCARCERATION IS A GENERATIONAL CURSE SOME HAVE CALLED IT AND THE USE OF P.F.O.s MAKE IT WORSE AND HOW DOES THE ENTERING OF A GUILTY PLEA PLAY INTO THE PROLIFERATION OF P.F.O.s?

>> WELL, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND THAT IS YOU KNOW, THIS ENTIRE TIME WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDER LAW AS SOMEONE HAS BEEN CONVICTED OF A SECT CRIME AND THEN THEY AR ARE ARE TAGGED AS A PERSISTENT FELON BUT WHAT WE HEARD OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS THAT THE LAW'S MOST COMMON USE IS AS A VERY POWERFUL TOOL IN PLEA NEGOTIATIONS.

PROSECUTORS SAYING TO DEFENSE ATTORNEYS YOU KNOW, WE ARE OFFERING THIS PLEA DEAL AND IF YOU AGREE AND IF YOU PLEAD GUILTY, WE'LL TAKE F.P.O.

OFF THE TABLE AND WHAT WE FOUND AFTER ANALYZING ALL THE DATA WITH THE HELP OF THE FOLKS AT VERA IS THAT I THINK THERE WAS MAYBE 140,000 P.F.O.

CASES OR SO THAT WE ANALYZED AND I WANT TO SAY 80,000 PEOPLE HAD BEEN CONVICTED OF P.F.O.

AND MAYBE 50,000 OF THOSE THE PERSON HAD PLEADED GUILTY AND SAW THE P.F.O.

CASE DROPPED.

A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF THESE CASES, PEOPLE ARE HAVING THEIR P.F.O.

CASES DISMISSED UPON A GUILTY PLEA, WHICH AGAIN IS A VERY STRONG INDICATOR THAT THIS LAW IS BEING USED AS A REALLY POWERFUL NEGOTIATION COOL.

WHEN YOU HAD SPOKEN WITH DAME ONPRESTON, KENTUCKY'S PUBLIC ADVOCATE TALKING ABOUT HOW THE RESULT OF THESE PFO LAWS CAN BE OUT OF STEP WITH THE SEVERITY OF THE UNDERLYING CRIME AND EXAMPLES YOU NOTE.

2006, A LEXINGTON MAN GOT A 10-YEAR SENTENCE FOR CUTTING A HOLE IN A CONVERTIBLE TOP TO RYE TO STEAL ITEMS IN 2012, A BOONE COUNTY MAN GAVE POLICE THE WRONG NAME TO AVOID ARREST ON A WARRANT THAT HAD A ONE YEAR SENTENCE LENGTHENED TO 10 YEARS AND 2018, SENTENCED TO 15 YEARS IN A CASE INVOLVING 10 OPIOID PILLS.

I CAN'T IMAGINE OF ALL THE WORK YOU HAVE DONE WITH YOUR OTHER COLLEAGUES, WHAT STRIKES YOU AS THE COMMON THREAD WITH THE CASE?

DRUG POSSESSION.

THERE HAS BEEN A CONSTANT CONVERSATION HERE IN KENTUCKY, THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN SOMEONE WHO IS SUFFERING FROM AN ADDICTION VERSUS SOMEONE WHO IS REALLY TRAFFICKING.

I MEAN DO YOU SEE THOSE LINES BEING A LOT CLEARER FROM THE REPORTING THAT YOU'VE DONE IN THIS SERIES?

>> I'M SORRY, COULD YOU REPEAT THAT QUESTION.

I APOLOGIZE.

>> Renee: THAT'S OKAY.

I WAS SAYING DO YOU SEE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THOSE WHO HAVE A LEGITIMATE SUBSTANCE ABUSE DISORDER FROM THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY TRAFFICKING AND FEEDING INTO PERPETUATING A POISON OF ADDICTION?

>> DEFINITELY AND I THINK WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DRUG TRAFFICKING, YOU KNOW, MARCUS' DAD WAS CONVICTED OF DRUG TRAFFICKING BUT THIS IS NOT THE CASE OF SOME GUY WHO HAS MASS QUANTITIES OF DRUGS AND IS MOVING THEM IN A SHADOW NETWORK LIKE WOULD YOU SEE ON TELEVISION OR SOMETHING.

THIS IS, YOU KNOW, A HUSBAND AND FATHER WHO HAS A DRUG ADDICTION AND IS SELLING DRUGS TO FEED THAT ADDICTION.

AND THAT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT UNIQUE TO MARCUS' DAD.

I THINK PRISONS AND JAILS IN KENTUCKY AND PRETTY MUCH EVERY OTHER STATE IN THE COUNTRY, ARE FULL OF STORIES JUST LIKE SO AGAIN IT COMES BACK TO PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDER LAW, THE QUESTION THAT I HOPE PEOPLE ARE ASKING IS WELL, IS THIS THE BEST WAY TO DEAL WITH THAT?

IS SOMEBODY WHO HAS A DRUG ADDICTION AND IS SELLING DRUGS TO FEED A HABIT, DO WE NEED TO PUT THEM BEHIND BARS AND CEEM THEM THERE LONGER?

IS THAT THE BEST WAY TO GET THEM THE HELP THEY CLEARLY NEED?

>> Renee: WHERE DOES IT STAND NOW WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF A LEGISLATIVE SESSION AS WE SPEAK.

IS THERE ANY MOVEMENT ON A MESS TOWER SCALE THIS BACK AS MARCUS JACKSON AND OTHERS WOULD WANT.

>> I TALKED TO MARCUS NOT TOO LONG AGO AND YOU SAW IN THE FILM HE WAS IN FRANKFORT MEETING WITH LAWMAKERS.

AND THE FOLKS AT SMART JUSTICE ADVOCATES, THEY HAVE CRAFTED A BILL PROPOSAL THAT WOULD SLIGHTLY SCALE BACK SOME OF THE PROVISION.

SOME OF THE SUGGESTIONS THAT HE AND OTHERS ARE LOOKING FOR ARE THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIMITING ITS USE AGAINST THE LOWEST LEVEL FELL FELONIES LIKE CLASS D NON-VIOLENT DRUG OFFENSES WHICH WE POINTED OUT IN THE STORY HALF OF P.F.O.s ARE AGAINST FOLKS WITH CLASS D. FELONY CONVICTION.

THEY WANT TO GIVE JURIES A LITTLE MORE POWER TO SAY, WELL, OKAY, THIS PERSON TECHNICALLY QUALIFIED FOR PERSISTENT FELONY OFFENDER LAW BUT WE DON'T THINK THE ENHANCED PUNISHMENTS SHOULD BE USED IN THIS CASE.

RIGHT NOW IT'S AN AUTOMATIC THINK.

BUT THEY WANT TO GIVE JURIES A LITTLE MORE POWER AND LAST I HEARD FROM MARCUS, I THINK THEY WERE GETTING CLOSE TO A BILL BEING FILED.

I KNOW WHEN WE TALKED TO HIM, HE IS STILL HOPEFUL.

WE'LL KEEP AN EYE ON IT.

>> Renee: AND WE WILL KEEP AN EYE ON IT AS WELL.

JONATHAN BULLINGTON, THANK YOU FOR THIS INCREDIBLE PIECE OF JOURNALISM.

THIS IS WORK AT ITS FINEST AND SHOWS THE PUBLIC SERVICE THAT JOURNALISM IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE BECAUSE OF GREAT JOURNALISTS LIKE YOURSELF.

THANK YOU FOR PUTTING THE TIME AND WORK INTO THIS.

IT'S AN AMAZING PIECE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Renee: AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING THIS EDITION OF CONNECTIONS.

WE'LL KEEP FOLLOWING THIS ISSUE AND STORY SO MAKE SURE YOU KEEP IT LOCKED HERE ON KET.

YOU CAN FOLLOW ME ON FACEBOOK AND TWITTER AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS ISSUE THERE AS WELL.

PODCASTS YOU CAN LISTEN TO THEM AT ket.org/PODCASTS.