michael garrett thanks for joining me on new  mexico infocus i'm really glad to have you   two here today to talk about pfas michael i'd  like to start with you and your coverage in   new jersey first of all welcome back to new  mexico pbs we miss you here in new mexico   new jersey is a state that's well known  for manufacturing when it comes to the pfas   contamination are we talking about manufacturing  are we talking about the military kind of what's   the the big issue in new jersey so in new jersey  um in new jersey we get it uh from everywhere   uh you're right uh we we're an industrial state  we've got a big legacy of chemical manufacturing   here and that's where a large uh source of  the contamination around us is coming from   we do have um our fair share of military bases the  largest of which is the joint base uh down in the   pine barrens um and that actually has according to  the environmental working group one of the highest   known um levels of of pfas that the dod has  found in their kind of initial round of testing   um so that's a significant source but i think  if you're looking at the picture holistically uh   pollution from uh chemical companies and chemical  plants has been the state's primary concern   and what are the different tactics that the state  has taken in trying to either compel cleanup stop   pollution from the manufacturing side from the  military side in new jersey um especially as the   state has gotten more serious about the issue the  primary tactic has been uh lawsuits and i've that   really started under our previous um commissioner  for the state department of environmental   protection uh her name was catherine mccabe and  she was a veteran of the doj's um environmental uh   wing um and so she kind of she took uh she  directed the state in conjunction with the   attorney general um to really rely on the courts  in in bringing um pressure down on companies to   compel a lot uh cleanup it's a slow moving  process a lot of these cleanups uh have not   begun yet um and the the court cases are still  playing out and i believe it was earlier this   year like maybe around january you were covering  the state's lawsuit with the defense department   what's the what's the strategy there and and where  does that lawsuit stand right now i think uh with   that particular lawsuit laura i think you will  um be able to relate to it uh with new mexico's   experience um the the state sued the department of  defense for contamination particularly focused on   uh joint base mcguire dicks lakehurst um  but also with concerns related to uh naval   weapons station earl and the former naval air  warfare center in trenton which is now closed   in all three cases the state  state regulators have just become   frustrated by a lack of action from the  department of defense particularly as   new jersey has moved forward with setting  statewide drinking water standards for pfas   um and they chew they chose to file the lawsuit  out of that frustration like most lawsuits um   related to the topic it got sent to federal court  in south carolina and that's where it sits today   so garrett michigan has been dealing with pfas  contamination issue for a lot longer than new   mexico has i'm curious the state has taken some  interesting steps from from my mind watching from   a distance can you talk a little bit about how the  state of michigan has tried to tackle the problem   with respect to the military contamination sure  um you know actually the the state of michigan   looked to new jersey quite a bit early on about  four or five years ago when they were starting to   develop some of its state drinking water standards  so in in regards to the military the the state of   michigan has not taken the step of taking them to  court it's mostly been sort of administrative uh   disputes over um you know state criteria and  you know the way that that's being enforced   in michigan there is a significant amount  of uh military contamination uh the the most   significant uh and most high profile of those is  the wordsmith air force base in north dakota but   there are issues that say selfridge air national  guard base near on lake saint claire there's an uh   k.i sawyer a former air force base up in the u.p  and you know but those the military piece is only   a smaller fraction of the overall contamination  picture in michigan which tends to largely be   centered on sort of a commercial industrial type  contaminations so if your viewers have ever heard   of the wolverine worldwide uh issue in the the  kent county area near grand rapids uh it's a   footwear manufacturer um hush puppy shoes merrell  sandals that sort of thing and that that's the   most severe example of the contamination in  michigan it's a 25 square mile contaminated area   incredibly high levels and drinking water wells  and you know rivers that are affected and you know   it's a pretty big deal um but the state's been  dealing with us skoda and wordsmith air force   base the longest and it's really where the first  place where they discovered the chemicals uh back   in 2010 um and so it's been a lot of push and pull  with the air force you know trying to get them to   adhere to state standards after they were  developed trying to get them to do more with   uh you know respect to clean up and it's just a  really long slow process it gets dragged out it's   the air force follows this superfund process known  as circla and they they love to say that they love   to say the acronym circle and the circle process  in fact it's something of a drinking game you know   among uh journalists who uh cover that um so it's  just a it's it's an ongoing thing the michigan's   governor gretchen whitmer is right now and just  recently you know as of this spring invoked a   defense a provision and in a recent defense  authorization bill that in an attempt to force   a new agreement with the department of defense  and and and and trying to you know hasten things   and and get things uh sort of moving more  more quickly and and get the air force to uh   adhere to the state's groundwater standards and  you know treatment water discharge standards   and all these little small things that the air  force pushes back on and they pretty much push   back on just about everything so in terms of the  military picture it's it's uh you know it's not   quite the same as new jersey uh hasn't really run  through the courts as much but it's it's you know   it's it's it's an issue that the state regulators  just you know are highly highly frustrated with   yeah so here in new mexico you know the  the push really has been we need epa to set   federal regulations there needs to be a federal  standard and then the state can hold the military   accountable what about these individual state  drinking water standards how have those played out   and and are they enforceable um let's start with  new jersey sure so we actually have three drinking   water standards in place in new jersey um  the first one uh was put in place in 2018   uh for pfna which as far as pfas goes is one  of the lesser known or talked about ones and   that's because in south jersey around a  chemical plant run by the company solvay   in around 2013 we found really severe uh pfna  contamination in municipal drinking water   uh there was a bit of a crisis there was bottled  water handouts um and in response to that um   the state developed drinking water standards  pfna those were put in place in 2018 um it   was followed in 2020 by standards for  pfoa and pfos which are much more common   and the way it works in new jersey is uh the  violation well the levels in a municipal system   are assessed on a quarterly basis and it's  kind of like averages for the previous year   so you needed to wait a year for enforcement  to kick in and now we're at that point where   the state is starting to hand out violations to  drinking water systems that are over the limit   and we're seeing that that's a bit of reporting  that i'm checking in on right now but i know   that uh there's at least five community  water systems in the state that have uh   pfos uh violations on the books uh and will need  to address that situation so that raises another   really big question that no one at this point has  an answer to which is um you know treating pfas   in water systems is a really it takes really  expensive equipment um that up to this point   water systems have not needed so who's going to  pay for that equipment and who's going to pay for   the ultimate remediation of the mess that's all  uh to be determined what about michigan garrett   um so in michigan uh in in 2018 the state took  the step of uh deciding it would test all of the   drinking water the public drinking water supplies  in michigan um and that was initiated following   the wolverine worldwide contamination it put  a pretty pretty big spotlight on michigan's   governor republican governor at the  time rick snyder we may have heard of   related to the flint water crisis  uh so he was looking to um so not   to not get involved in another uh drinking water  issue where it looked like the state government   was uh you know asleep at the wheel so they  started testing all the drinking water supplies   around michigan and they found some i think it  was ended up being about 1.5 to 1.9 million people   were being served by a a municipal supply or a  public supply that had at least traced levels   of of the chemicals and so they initiate  they started doing some toxicology reviews   um uh of the literature around um you know fifa's  contamination and its impact on people's health   in in 2018 uh governor gretchen whitmer was  um elected and one of the first things she did   uh in the spring of 2019 was initiate the uh  promulgation of state-specific drinking water   standards that which are enforceable um and so it  took a you know a better part of a year and a half   or so there to get through that process uh it's a  complicated process um you know even at the state   level at the federal level it takes several years  and is incredibly you know even more complicated   by the state process it can move a little more  quickly um and so in uh august 2020 in sort of the   midst of the pandemic summer um they those those  standards were passed uh uh the state legislature   which uh declined to act to stop them there's a  joint committee that gets to look at that stuff   and uh then they took effect and so you know the  state has uh seven chemicals which are uh pfas   chemicals which it regulates in drinking water uh  and the lowest i believe is i think um uh pfna uh   which is i think at six parts per trillion um pfoa  is uh eight uh pfos is 16 you know so it's it's   similar to some of the other state drinking  water standards uh around the country um but   certainly not the most uh strict i believe maybe  pfna is nationally but they've you know the state   is moving through the administrative process  now with the utilities those are enforceable   standards and there's a quarterly sampling that's  done at drinking water systems around the state   um there's you know those some of those systems  are probably going to have to be installing   treatment measures like activated carbon or um  reverse osmosis which you know i think for at   a public utility scale it's most likely to  go with the granular activated carbon but   um you know it's it's it's something that is sort  of you know moving along in in sort of a typical   regulatory fashion in some cases until actually  this summer when uh or this spring when 3m   filed a lawsuit to try and invalidate those  standards and so that's sort of where things are   at with them they were you know it's they haven't  been struck down or anything uh by a judge but   they are being challenged the state standards that  you're talking about seem much smaller much more   strict than the epa's recommended health advisory  which is 70 parts per billion you're talking   much lower numbers and much lower exposures um  garrett you've done some really great reporting   recently in the past couple of months around  the um what is it the worst smith air force base   and that pfas contamination unlike here in  new mexico where the contamination is largely   contained but not entirely contained to  the these large air force bases themselves   but with wordsmith that's not the case and i'd  just like to highlight a paragraph in one of   your recent stories about the town of oscada  michigan and you wrote the pfos problem has   become an economic and social burden from  which there appears to be no end in sight   hotel owners say it drives cancellations  realtors say it tanks housing deals   residents worry about how it may impact their  property values elected officials call it a time   suck that's raising utility and infrastructure  costs and few if any are satisfied with the   pace at which the air force is cleaning up the  problem what has the military done at this point   well so the military has done some things in us  coda um the the problem you know in oscoda dates   back before most people really knew about much  about pfas in michigan or or elsewhere and so   in 2014 i think the first granular activated  carbon groundwater extraction treatment system   wasn't at a military site anywhere was actually  installed at worksmith air force base in oscoda   and that's been that's installed at the fire  training site where they just used you know   liberal amounts of uh a triple firefighting  foam uh to train with and it's right next to   a a marshland which is part of the uh the  ausable river um you know complex and which   dumps into lake huron and so you know there's  been some there's been work happening around   this issue since 2014 but it's not very it's not  a lot uh it's sort of a drop in the bucket uh to   the overall size of the issue um and so you know  it's been a sort of a slow pushing pull to get the   air force to do more over time and so the because  the air force uh uses 70 parts petroleum which you   just mentioned the epa's health advisory level  as their action level not the state drinking   water standards they've only hooked up like  one or two homes to municipal drinking water   whereas if those standards if they were  dealing with uh standards that were far   lower that the state standards those hookups  would be you know the air force would be on   the hook for many more of them uh it's been a  largely dealt with as a natural resources issue   um to some degree versus a public health issue  uh at worksmith and that's you know a bit of a   you know a topic of debate uh among you know the  various folks who exist in the escoda community in   the state regulatory community even at the federal  level it's you know how big is the the threat here   um when it the there's a lot of people on private  wells uh around oscoda but it's sort of a smaller   northern michigan rural communities so it's not  like it's densely populated lots of people in one   place drinking from a highly contaminated aquifer  these people are spread out some of them are   drinking many of them are drinking contaminated  groundwater but it's somewhere under 70 parts per   trillion and this air force isn't gonna you know  really do anything for that and so what they are   being forced to deal with is the natural resources  the contaminated marsh where some of the uh most   highly contaminated fish ever found anywhere  in the world are found right next to the air   force base um you know a a lake that's very  popular with fishing and boating and it's just   this foam uh this it's almost like reconstituted  a triple f it just forms on the shoreline and you   go there and it's it's it's obvious and it's you  know it's this piles of phone that sometimes blow   inland when it's a windy day and um you know  that's those are the sorts of things that   people in oskodar are you know upset about and  this is a northern michigan hunting fishing   community it's it sort of lives and dies on the  tourism dollars that you know people bring to   it every summer and so you know it you have  a contamination issue there's automatically a   stigma issue associated with that and so you get  you know various points of views from people who   live in that community some people are very  up in arms about it and want something done   and want to shout from the rooftops and other  people are like well you know let's let's just   deal with this internally here and locally  and not you know uh get people skittish and   you know decide to vacation elsewhere um you know  so it's a you know that paragraph you read is is   you know my best attempt to sort of summarize  the way that that you know issue is being you   know is manifesting itself in a skoda it's just  it kind of pervades everything and becomes just a   you know adds a struggle uh element you  know that really wouldn't otherwise be there   right what about in new jersey what action has the  military taken either toward cleanup or providing   drinking water to people or filtration systems  to people whose water's been contaminated   i honestly laura i'm not sure i  could fully answer that question   uh because i've been so focused on um  the chemical company side of things   um my best answer to that is that the state  feels that the military is not done enough   right so what about people whose drinking  water has been contaminated by manufacturers   who pays for their sort of mitigation of their  water well that's a great question i think that   the best example comes from um south jersey  the gloucester county area which is where   the sol bay plant that has been the the center  of so many um of so much trouble um is located   uh that was where they found the high levels of  pfna back around 2013 um at that point in time   solvay uh who has never taken responsibilities  being the source of the contamination   um did pay uh to hand out bottled water um as  wells were tested um many municipal wells that   were found to have particularly high levels  were taken offline so it's a strain on those   municipal systems to figure out where they're  going to get water from instead beyond that the systems have been have had to install kind of  filters either at the wells or in their treatment   plants there's a lot of homeowners down there with  private wells so they need filters for their homes   when the water comes in the state has helped paid  for some of those um and i i would need to double   check but i believe soli has also helped pay  for some of those as well and so the the water   situation down there is uh for the most part  better right like the contamination is there but   the water is drinkable because the filters have  in recent years been installed that's not across   the board one of the towns in the affected area  is a is a local is a town called national park   and they recently were issued a violation uh  from state regulators for having pfna uh over the   state limit in their drinking water so they still  have work to do um to figure out the issue um but   that is is generally uh in places uh where the  contamination has been found it really falls on   the local water system whether it be municipally  owned or a private company whatever it may be   um to handle it themselves um to to that extent  even a couple weeks ago or i should say earlier   in june uh a handful of municipalities  in new jersey led by the city of camden   uh sued uh 3m dupont and other chemical companies   basically to recoup costs for drinking water  contamination that's a very new lawsuit and it   is like so many others in a federal court in  south carolina it just seems to me listening   to what both of you are talking about and knowing  the situation here in new mexico that the such a   huge burden is placed on the state whether it's  to try to compel cleanup or perform studies or   figure out ways to get clean water into people's  homes and um you know kind of it's extraordinary   to think about the amount of taxpayer money  whether federal or state that goes into polluting the water in the first  place and then trying to figure out   how to clean it up one of the things that  happened here in the state recently was   the the state of new mexico and the usgs  started doing um studies statewide sampling   um with from within our major rivers and  groundwater and and found low levels of phos   are pretty widespread in the state's  waters and garrett you recently covered pfos and rain water around the great lakes region  is this a significant public health threat like   what do these studies tell us about what's  happening uh well so the the the rain uh study   is sort of uh it's not peer-reviewed yet it's  it's pending that sort of thing but it's uh done   by a very credible research group that's uh funded  jointly by the epa and the government of canada uh   it's uh the an atmospheric deposition monitoring  network in the great lakes and what they found is   surprisingly high levels of the contaminants  at various sites around the great lakes so   they tested in chicago cleveland uh those were  two urban sites uh where they found you know i   think the the data point they shared with me  was a thousand parts per trillion in uh over   two weeks so two weeks worth of rainwater added up  to a thousand parts per trillion in concentration   um you know in cleveland and you know with  similar sort of similarly high concentrations   i understand in chicago um and then other you know  finding concentrations in remote areas as well so   there's a national lakeshore on the north west  corner of michigan called sleeping bear dunes   it's very popular beautiful area uh they found  you know surprisingly high concentrations and uh   you know 100 to a couple hundred parts per  trillion in in sleeping bear dunes and this   is there's no smoke stacks around sleeping rare  dunes right and so it's got to come from somewhere   um and so in terms of the public health threat   i guess the the researchers you know i talked  to say you know this isn't going to make someone   you know nonstick or right you know by being out  in this rain um but what it does is it it just   spreads this stuff everywhere um you know it it  it's it you know if it's falling in the rain then   it's falling on you know crop land it's falling on  land that's used you know and filtering into grown   water that's used for drinking water supplies it's  falling on the great lakes themselves which are   you know an enormous source of drinking water  for you know i think 40 million people in in   the midwest in canada um you know and and so it it  could go a long way to explaining a lot of sort of   small lower detections that don't really aren't  can't be traced to a source uh but show up in   various investigations um you know where you know  just sort of stumps the regulators you know who   want to try and sort of find a source for it  but they can't and but they're also you know   the data shows that it's there um you know i  i've as someone who works in the great lakes uh   region and covers the great lakes we've always you  know uh we're highly aware that like other states   out west you know look at that these bodies  of fresh water and think gosh that would be   nice to have especially in the middle of a of  a drought in a you know extreme heat situation   um you know i'm actually in the middle of working  on the story right now that you know analyzes data   from the state of michigan's uh uh regular  sampling of great lakes based drinking water   systems and the the conclusion is going to be  that low occurrence low detections are common in   you know systems that draw from the great lakes  and it can be you know it can change it can be two   parts per trillion one month and 10 parts per  trillion the next month it sort of depends on   you know their proximity to the river mouths and  tributaries that bring the stuff to the great   lakes from inland so the lakes themselves are not  pristine sources of drinking water by any stretch   they're gonna probably at some point those systems  you know may need to start looking at filtration   you know i mean we're talking about systems like  the city of grand rapids where you know i've drank   that water for years and years um so you know it's  it's undetermined i think in terms of what the   you know something like the pfas and rain you  know what the overall public health threat is   but it's definitely fair to say that it's you know  it adds to the accumulation of these chemicals in   the environment and helps spread them around in  ways that make it really difficult to remediate   right so here in new mexico pfas has not garnered  a lot of attention or local media coverage and i'm   curious in new jersey and michigan what has public  response and interest been in in pfas coverage uh well speaking for new jersey i'd say um  you get a pretty big response of concern   uh from the immediate community where wherever  the given test is found or the given contamination   uh is found i'm not sure that the issue  has permeated uh and grabbed the attention   of the state's population at large um but for  folks that show up one day with a violation   notice on their door or a note in their annual  consumer confidence report from their water system   it raises a lot of questions you know and and and  folks that look into it it's not hard for people   to figure out the health risks that are associated  with pfas and once you know once they learn about   that people keep people care a lot how about  michigan well you know i think we're uh one of   the states that's got more people who are paying  attention to it you know just sort of uh by virtue   of the fact that we have investigated this stuff  pretty heavily over the last few years i think   across the state of michigan we're at something  like 170 sites where there's known contamination   above a certain you know level they're sort  of on the state's radar and that doesn't even   include the drinking water systems and you know  various other investigations that are going on   so you know and as well as you know the  there's been a lot of reporting on it in in   you know the last few years and and the i'm very  proud of the work that i've done and we've done   that m live to uh try and um you know raise the  awareness and and try and get this stuff out there   um and it's been picked up and and and carried  forward by other media outlets uh big and small um   you know and and it's it's had impacts in in the  ways you know the the awareness you know has done   led to things like a high school students up  in northern michigan in a place called pelston   they decided to you know be proactive and start  testing their own you know local drinking water   sources before the state was able to get around  to it and and then they found the chemicals   you know and it you know uh concerningly high  levels and and that got the attention of state   authorities and you know now that it's  being sort of addressed and and so that's   you know sort of the out you know one of the uh  more positive uh impacts of a populist that's a   bit more educated about it um in michigan we've  we went through the flint drinking water crisis   uh several years ago and and and that really  heightened people's uh awareness around drinking   water specifically but also environmental issues  um given that we're positioned in the middle of   the great lakes you know people tend to be very  emotional around water and very uh you know uh   just pay a lot more attention to environmental  issues uh to some degree than than i assume other   states do but all that being said i still uh you  know talk to people on a regular basis you know   friends of mine uh family members from around the  state and elsewhere and and you know i bring it up   and you know they're like hey foss never heard of  that you know and then you get to explain to them   this thing and then you know that's how you know  you have that conversation so uh you know it's   it's it's hit or miss you know i think uh place  by place in michigan but overall i think we have a   a pretty our state's population is pretty  pretty keen to it at this point so i have that   conversation with with more people than probably  want to have that conversation with me about pfas   and i'm curious what have you each learned about  pfas that you kind of wish you just never knew in new jersey the state department of  environmental protection officials have said   early and often that where you look for pfast  you find it uh and that is held true um in the   in the few years that i've been reporting on this  now um i think uh recently i did some reporting on   on research done by state and federal scientists  of uh new chemicals within the pfas family that   solve a has been using in replacement of  pfna as supposed to be the safer alternative   these chemicals have been found to be to have  their own health questions and they've also   been found to be pretty airborne and so it's been  it's remarkable when you read a study that buys um   pollution as far away as new hampshire to this  chemical plant in south jersey um and just the   pervasiveness of these chemicals in the world  around us i mean never mind the fact that they   are in the majority of things in our household you  know um but just just this year where how they end   up in the environment and to the extent which um  it's something it's hard to shake garrett what do   you wish you never knew you know very similar to  you know what michael just outlined just the the   pervasiveness of it you know and and when you  learn that you start to inevitably question you   know your own exposures to it uh over time right  and so i you know uh in college i spent a lot of   time uh delivering pizzas working in a pizza place  and pizza boxes are you know sort of one of these   well-known uh types of food contact uh product  that uh you are coated with pfas and so i'm   i'm assuming i've ingested a lot of it um i've  been on various drinking water supplies which have   later been found to have you know levels of it not  not really high levels but nonetheless you know   they're there um you know so you start to think  about that and you start to think about the way   that you know effects could affect you and could  affect your loved ones and stuff and it's just uh   you know it's it's hard to to wrap your mind  around it right and that's just you know and   then you start to think you know there are some  people who have been exposed to this stuff at just   godly high amounts and in you know you you really  feel for those people um they've lost they've lost   people you know they deal with chronic health  problems now and it you know it's it's just it's   a rough thing uh to you know deal with reporting  on this over you know last few years you know i've   seen affected people residents you know who  found high levels of it in their water who   you know realized you know that their  son who was very young was drinking   really high levels of this stuff and it's a  you go to they appear to be going through a   grieving process right to learn you know to  come to grips with that sort of thing and so   you know it's just the the idea that it that it's  everywhere that we just kind of recently figured   out that these things are out there and it's it's  that's been the troubling aspect of it for me   yeah well thank you both so much for your  standout reporting on this that that serves   not just your local communities but for someone  reading from another state is just really great   reporting so thank you for that and thanks for  joining me today i really appreciate your time   thanks for having us i appreciate  uh you know you're doing this   yeah thank you so much for the invitation laura  it's always a pleasure to hear from new mexico pbs