>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS - REPRODUCTIVE HEALTHCARE IN NEW MEXICO.

SEVERAL COMMUNITIES AROUND THE STATE ARE DIGGING IN BEHIND ANTI-ABORTION ORDINANCES MONTHS AFTER THE GOVERNOR SIGNED A BILL TO PROTECT ACCESS.

AND ... >> Suina: DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY WAS JUST NOT ABOUT CLAIMING LANDS AS ONE'S OWN AND DOING WITH IT WHAT ONE WANTED TO DO, BUT IT WAS GENOCIDE.

>> Gene: JUST A START.

LEADERS FROM TWO PUEBLO COMMUNITIES LAY OUT A PATH FOR HEALING AFTER THE VATICAN BREAKS FROM THE HISTORIC 'DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY.'

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

>> Gene: THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I’M YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

WHILE NEW MEXICO WAITS FOR THE STATE SUPREME COURT TO RULE ON ANTI-ABORTION ORDINANCES, PRO-LIFE ACTIVISTS HAVE THEIR EYES SET ON THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY'S SHOW, CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND ASKS CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY LAURA SCHAUER IVES HOW THE NATION'S HIGHEST COURT COULD RULE.

WE’RE ALSO GETTING PERSPECTIVE FROM THE MAYOR OF HOBBS ON HIS COMMUNITY’S ORDINANCE.

I ASK IF LAWMAKERS IN SANTA FE ARE HEARING HIS CITY, AND IF HOBBS WANTS IN ON A LARGER NATIONAL STRATEGY TO GET TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

BUT FIRST, WE TURN OUR ATTENTION TO EASTERN NEW MEXICO AS ONE TOWN PASSES AN ANTI-ABORTION ORDINANCE, AND ANOTHER FILES SUIT AGAINST THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

LET’S GET TO THE LINE.

>> Gene: WELCOME TO OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS FOR THE WEEK.

WE’RE HAPPY TO BE JOINED IN PERSON IN OUR ALBUQUERQUE STUDIOS BY ELISE KAPLAN, WHO'S JUST BEEN NAMED TO THE POSITION OF INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER AT THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL.

CONGRATULATIONS, ELISE, AND WELCOME.

>> Elise: THANK YOU.

>> Gene: ACROSS THE TABLE, SENATOR DIANE SNYDER IS HERE, AND ACROSS THE TABLE BACK AGAIN, POLITICAL PSYCHOLOGIST AND AUTHOR, MARTHA BURK.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

FOLLOWING EIGHT HOURS OF PUBLIC COMMENT AND DEBATE, COUNCILORS IN THE TOWN OF EDGEWOOD VOTED 4-1 LAST WEEK TO RESTRICT ACCESS TO ABORTION.

EDGEWOOD IS NOW THE SIXTH MUNICIPALITY TO PASS AN ANTI-ABORTION ORDINANCE JOINING EUNICE, HOBBS, CLOVIS, AND LEA AND ROOSEVELT COUNTIES.

ELISE, YOU WERE THERE DURING THE COUNCIL VOTE.

TAKE US INSIDE THE MEETING, WITH EDGEWOOD BEING THE FIRST CITY TO PASS AN ANTI-ABORTION ORDINANCE SINCE THE PASSING OF HOUSE BILL 7.

LONG MEETING.

YOU WERE THERE FOR EVERY MINUTE OF IT, EIGHT HOURS PLUS, INTO THE WEE HOURS.

LET'S START GENERALLY.

WHAT WAS THE GENERAL SENSE OF IT AT THE START OF IT?

IT WASN'T A SLAM DUNK.

HOW MANY FOLKS WERE FOR, AND HOW MANY WERE OPPOSED?

WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

>> Elise: YEAH, SO IT'S SUPER INTERESTING.

I PULLED UP RIGHT AT 5:00 WHEN IT WAS STARTING AND THERE WAS A LINE OUT THE DOOR.

THERE WAS PEOPLE -- IT WAS JUST PACKED.

THEY HAD AN OVERFLOW ROOM, AND I TALKED TO SOME OF THE SECURITY GUARDS AND OFFICERS AND THEY WERE LIKE, THIS IS THE CRAZIEST MEETING WE'VE EVER SEEN.

OBVIOUSLY, IT WAS LIKE THE BIGGEST MEETING EDGEWOOD HAS EVER HAD.

AND KIND OF THE REACTIONS FROM THE CROWD, I DEFINITELY GOT THE SENSE OF THAT THEY WERE ALL VERY MUCH IN SUPPORT OF THE ORDINANCE, WHICH FOLLOWS THE COMSTOCK ACT AND WOULD RESTRICT ACCESS TO ABORTION IN EDGEWOOD.

BUT YOU KNOW, THE WAY THEY WOULD CLAP, THEY WAY THEY WOULD LAUGH, THE MOOD OF THE ROOM DID SEEM LIKE IT WAS IN SUPPORT OF THE ORDINANCE ITSELF.

AND THEN AMONG THE COMMISSIONERS, IT SEEMED EVERYBODY WAS TAKING IT VERY SERIOUSLY.

THERE WAS A LOT OF DEBATE AND A LOT OF CONSIDERATION ABOUT IT, REALLY.

AND I THINK THE ONES THAT DID KIND OF OPPOSE IT WERE KIND OF WORRIED ABOUT THE FINANCIAL COST OF IT MORE THAN ANYTHING.

>> Gene: INTERESTING THAT YOU MENTION THAT.

COMMISSIONER BRENNAN MENTIONED THAT.

QUOTING, HE MENTIONED: "IT'S GOING TO BE EXPENSIVE."

DO YOU THINK THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS WERE IN THE SAME LINE WITH THAT?

WAS THAT THE GENERAL SENSE OF THINGS?

>> Elise: CERTAINLY HALF OF THEM, YES.

I THINK THAT WAS A BIG CONCERN FOR THE MAYOR, AS WELL.

COMMISSIONER POWERS ALSO.

HE WAS VERY MUCH KIND OF TALKING ABOUT THAT, LIKE DO WE REALLY WANT TO START THIS FIGHT, DO WE WANT TO ENTER INTO THIS FRAY.

SO I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WAS VERY MUCH ON THE TOP OF EVERYBODY'S MINDS.

AND THEN ALSO THE IDEOLOGICAL PART OF IT, TOO.

LIKE PEOPLE, THEY VERY MUCH STRONGLY BELIEVED IN THIS ORDINANCE AND IDENTIFIED AS PRO-LIFE AND WANTED TO SHOW THEIR SUPPORT FOR THAT MOVEMENT.

>> Gene: AND AS ELISE REPORTED, FOLKS WERE THERE FROM CLOVIS AND ALL OVER THE STATE, BUT ALSO FROM TEXAS.

AND WE HAVE A COUPLE OF TEXANS IN PARTICULAR WHO WERE DRIVING THE AGENDA, WHETHER FOLKS WANT TO ADMIT IT, ACROSS THE STATE.

HOW SHOULD WE CONSIDER WHAT YOU'RE SEEING FORMING HERE, MARTHA?

IS SOMETHING FORMING THAT MORE RED COUNTIES ARE GOING TO START GOING THIS WAY AND WE'RE GOING TO A PATCHWORK QUILT OF RED AND BLUE ON THIS ISSUE HERE SUDDENLY?

HOW DO YOU SEE THE TEXAS INFLUENCE PLAYING OUT HERE?

>> Martha: WELL, THE TEXAS INFLUENCE IS CONSIDERABLE, AS ELISE'S REPORTING SHOWED US.

YOU SAID IN YOUR PIECE -- AND THANK YOU, BY THE WAY, IT WAS EXCELLENT REPORTING -- THAT OF THE PEOPLE IN EDGEWOOD THAT SPOKE FOR OR AGAINST, THEY WERE ABOUT EVENLY SPLIT.

BUT THE ONES THAT CAME IN FROM OUTSIDE, NOT NECESSARILY FROM TEXAS, BUT DRUMMED UP BY THE AGITATOR FROM TEXAS TO GET THEM THERE, MOST OF THEM WERE IN FAVOR OF THE RESTRICTIONS.

SO OUTSIDERS DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

IN TERMS OF THE COST, I'D LIKE TO ADDRESS THAT A BIT, BECAUSE THAT IS THE KIND OF THING THAT WILL GIVE AN OFFICE HOLDER AN EXCUSE TO VOTE AGAINST SOMETHING WHEN THEY ARE AFRAID TO COME OUT AND SAY, I THINK IT'S A LOUSY IDEA.

>> Gene: RIGHT, THE COST.

>> Martha: SO IT GIVES THEM AN AUTOMATIC OUT.

>> Gene: THAT'S A GOOD POINT, BECAUSE THE COST IS COMING.

DIANE, MOST PEOPLE THINK OF NEW MEXICO AS THIS INCREASINGLY BLUE STATE.

WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE DEEP POCKETS OF RED, I JUST MENTIONED, IN OUR STATE CERTAINLY.

SHOULD WE EXPECT TO SEE MORE OF THESE?

ARE YOU HEARING ANYTHING THAT MORE OF THIS IS COMING?

>> Diane: YES.

>> Gene: OKAY.

>> Diane: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK, AND I PICKED UP ON THIS PARTICULARLY WITH OUR ATTORNEY GENERAL, THE FIRST THING HE FILED WAS SAYING THAT YOU CAN'T DO IT, THAT WE HAVE SENATE BILL 7, WHICH IS THE LAW, AND YOU CAN'T DO IT, THEREFORE.

THE PROBLEM IS -- AND HE WENT BACK ON HIS SECOND FILING AND KIND OF SMUDGED THIS OVER -- IS THE BILL HAS NOT IMPLEMENTED IN THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO YET.

THEY DID NOT PUT AN EMERGENCY CLAUSE ON IT, THEY DIDN'T PUT A SPECIFIC DATE, AND THEY LEFT IT TO FOLLOW UNDER THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RULES THAT X AMOUNT OF DAYS AFTER IT IS SIGNED.

SO THAT MEANS JUNE 16TH.

SO SOME ATTORNEYS, CERTAINLY THE CONSERVATIVE ONES, ARE SAYING, IT'S NOT THE LAW UNTIL JUNE 16TH.

WELL, TECHNICALLY THAT'S TRUE.

I MEAN, IF WE STARTED CHANGING THAT FOR EVERY LAW WE'VE DONE, WE MIGHT AS WELL NOT PUT ANY DATES OR HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL DECISION ON WHERE THEY SHOULD BE.

HOWEVER, IT'S KIND OF LIKE, WELL, WE KNOW IT'S THE LAW, OR GOING TO BE THE LAW, BUT IT'S NOT THE LAW AT THE MOMENT.

SO UNTIL JUNE 16TH, I THINK WE MAY SEE -- I MEAN, THIS IS JUST THE FIRST WEEK OF MAY.

I THINK WE MAY SEE A COUPLE MORE COMMUNITIES.

WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM THE NORTHWEST CORNER SO MUCH, AND I CAN'T IMAGINE THEM NOT GETTING IN.

>> Gene: THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT.

WOULD THAT BE THE LOGICAL NEXT PLACE IN YOUR MIND?

>> Diane: IN MY MIND, YES.

>> Gene: TO HAVE A BEST CHANCE AT THE COUNTY LEVEL AND THE CITY LEVEL?

>> Diane: AND THE CITY.

AZTEC, FARMINGTON, AND OF COURSE SAN JUAN COUNTY.

SO I THINK, YES.

TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, YES, I DO ANTICIPATE SEEING A FEW MORE THAT WILL WRAP THEMSELVES IN THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT A LAW UNTIL IT'S IMPLEMENTED DATE.

SO WE'LL SEE.

>> Gene: YOU KNOW, ELISE, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT'S OUT THERE, AND I HAVE NOT HEARD A GOOD ANSWER FROM ANY OF THE MAYORS SO FAR THAT HAVE GONE TO THIS FLIP IS WHAT THIS DOES IMPACTING OTHER HEALTH ISSUES FOR WOMEN AND HEALTH CARE IN THOSE AREAS.

YOU KNOW, ANY ANCILLARY EFFECTS, THOSE KIND OF THINGS.

DID THAT COME UP IN EDGEWOOD THAT NIGHT?

ARE THEY THAT FAR DOWN THE ROAD IN CONVERSATION, SAYING IF WE DO THIS -- AND OF COURSE, THERE'S NO ABORTION CLINICS IN EDGEWOOD, WHICH I'LL REITERATE.

BUT THERE'S OTHER ISSUES AT STAKE WHEN IT COMES TO WOMEN'S HEALTH.

ANY CONVERSATION ABOUT THAT?

>> Elise: THERE WAS SOME CONVERSATION ABOUT THAT.

THE WAY THE ORDINANCE IS WRITTEN IN EDGEWOOD, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF EXCEPTIONS, AND ALSO THE ONE IN EDGEWOOD IS A CIVIL ACTION ORDINANCE, KIND OF LIKE WHAT THEY HAD IN TEXAS WITH SENATE BILL 8.

SO IT ALLOWS ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THAT ANYONE WHO HAS HAD AN ABORTION, OR HAS ACCESSED PILLS OR EQUIPMENT TO HAVE AN ABORTION IN THE TOWN, TO SUE THAT PERSON.

BUT THERE'S A NUMBER OF EXCEPTIONS, AND THEY LAY OUT, YOU KNOW, LIKE SERIOUS MEDICAL COMPLICATIONS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> Gene: SO THEY HAVE CARVED OUT SOME THINGS?

>> Elise: THEY HAVE, YEAH.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

MARTHA, I'M INTERESTED IN YOUR TAKE ON THIS, HOW THIS AFFECTS OTHER WOMEN'S HEALTH ISSUES.

>> Martha: I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE AN ARGUMENT, AS DIANE SAYS, AT LEAST UNTIL THE ORDINANCE TAKES EFFECT.

BUT THERE'S A MUCH LARGER ISSUE HERE, GENE, THAT I THINK IS GOING TO TORPEDO THE WHOLE THING, AND THAT IS THE NEW MEXICO EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT.

ATTORNEY GENERAL TORREZ GOES INTO THAT EXTENSIVELY IN HIS DOCUMENT.

IT IS LAWYERLY, IT IS LONG, BUT BASICALLY IT SAYS, THERE IS PRECEDENT FROM 1995, NARAL v. JOHNSON, THAT THESE KIND OF LAWS ARE PRESUMPTIVELY UNCONSTITUTIONAL WHEN IT COMES TO ABORTION BECAUSE IT IS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN THAT IS OUTLAWED BY OUR EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT, WHICH HAS BEEN IN THE NEW MEXICO CONSTITUTION FOR A LONG TIME.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

>> Martha: SO THERE'S THIS PRESUMPTION OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY, AND THAT IS WRITTEN, THAT THIS STUFF CANNOT PASS MUSTER.

AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE LEAVING THAT OUT, THEY'RE NOT THINKING ABOUT IT.

I WAS GRATEFUL FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO BRING THAT UP AND SHOW THAT THIS AIN'T GOING TO FLY.

>> Gene: IS HE STRONG ENOUGH ON THIS YET?

IS HE STRONG ON THIS?

I'VE NOT HEARD HIM REALLY KIND OF COME OUT AND SAY, GUYS -- >> Martha: YOU HAVE TO READ WHAT HE WROTE.

I HAVE NOT HEARD HIM MENTION IT.

I'M NOT KEEPING UP WITH ALL THE RHETORIC, SO HE MAY HAVE.

BUT IN THIS -- I DON'T KNOW, I'M NOT A LAWYER.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CALL IT A BRIEF OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT, BUT IT IS CLEARLY STATED THERE AND IT'S UNEQUIVOCAL.

>> Gene: INTERESTING.

>> Diane: TO ME, THE BIG PICTURE THING IS, EVEN IF IT FAILS IN NEW MEXICO, THERE ARE MANY OTHER STATES WHERE IT IS NOT FAILING, THEY DON'T HAVE AN ATTORNEY GENERAL DOING IT, AND I BELIEVE -- AND NOBODY HAS TOLD ME THIS -- I BELIEVE THE WHOLE FOCUS OF ALL OF THIS IS TO GET IT TO THE SUPREME COURT.

AND IN NEW MEXICO, IT'S SHOWING THAT EVEN IN THIS STATE THAT IS SO BLUE -- SO RED?

-- SO BLUE, THAT THERE ARE POCKETS, JUST LIKE THERE ARE POCKETS OF BLUE PEOPLE IN RED STATES.

BUT I BELIEVE THE ULTIMATE GOAL -- AND AS I'VE SAID, I'VE NOT TALKED WITH MR. DICKSON, WHATEVER HIS NAME IS, FROM TEXAS, BUT THAT'S WHAT I SEE AS A BIG PICTURE KIND OF THING.

AND I READ A COUPLE OF ARTICLES WHERE SOME INDEPENDENT, NONBIAS -- WELL, NOT NONBIAS, BUT NONPARTISAN WRITERS TALKED ABOUT THE FACT, HOW ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PRO-CHOICE GOING TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM NATIONWIDE WITHOUT IT GETTING TO THE SUPREME COURT.

>> Gene: LET ME KIND OF JUMP IN ON THAT AND KIND OF SWING IT BACK LOCALLY, BECAUSE WE'VE GOT EUNICE, WHO I MENTIONED IS ON OUR LIST OF MUNICIPALITIES HERE, AND THEY'RE TAKING THE FIGHT RIGHT TO THE GOVERNOR ON THIS, SUING THE GOVERNOR AND ATTORNEY GENERAL TORREZ.

THE MAYOR OF EUNICE MADE THE ANNOUNCEMENT OUTSIDE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT BUILDING, REMEMBER THAT, IN D.C. EUNICE WANTS THIS CASE TO GET NATIONAL ATTENTION.

I MEAN, EUNICE IS THE TIP OF THE SPEAR HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

ELISE, ARE WE GOING TO BE THE FACE OF THE ISSUE BECAUSE OF EUNICE, NECESSARILY?

THEY'VE ALREADY BEEN IN WASHINGTON.

THEY'RE ANNOUNCING.

>> Elise: I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE.

I THINK THAT LOTS OF STATES ARE GOING THROUGH THIS, AS WELL.

SO I THINK IT'S KIND OF A COALITION OF DIFFERENT RED POCKETS IN BLUE STATES THAT ARE ALSO DOING THIS.

BUT, YEAH, I THINK IT'S VERY POSSIBLE THAT EUNICE OR ANOTHER NEW MEXICO MUNICIPALITY COULD BE THE FACE OF THIS.

>> Gene: I'LL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD ON THIS SUPREME COURT IDEA.

IF YOU'RE THINKING IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO GET THAT FAR, SOME STATE IS GOING TO GET IT THERE.

HOW DO YOU SEE IT?

>> Martha: WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, WE DO NOT HAVE A FEDERAL EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT.

SO THAT IS GOING TO FACTOR IN.

THE SENATE VOTED LAST WEEK TO BRING UP THE AMENDMENT AGAIN TO SEE ABOUT RATIFICATION.

THE REPUBLICANS VOTED IT DOWN.

THEY DO NOT WANT A FEDERAL EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT, WHICH WE BADLY NEED.

BUT I THINK IT COULD GET TO THE SUPREME COURT.

I THINK THEY'RE PRETTY ANGUISHED ALREADY ABOUT THE OVERTURNING OF ROE.

AND SO I GOT TO SAY ONE MORE THING, GENE, AND THIS CAME UP IN THE EDGEWOOD, AND IT KEEPS COMING UP.

AND I ENCOURAGE OUR WATCHERS AND LISTENERS TO GO TO THE ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL AND READ ELISE'S WORK.

WOVEN INTO THAT ARE A COUPLE OF VIDEOS, AND THEY ARE FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE, SO TO SPEAK.

BUT THE ONE IS TWO MEN, AND THEY ARE CALLING ON CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES, JESUS AND SO FORTH, AND THIS IS NOT GOD'S WILL.

THEY NEED TO LEARN SOMETHING.

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A THEOCRACY.

WE LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY.

AND THE CHURCH DOES NOT RULE WHAT THE LAW SAYS.

IF IT DID, HERE'S WHAT MIGHT BE COMING DOWN THE PIKE.

THERE ARE CHURCHES THAT DO NOT BELIEVE IN BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS.

THERE ARE QUITE A NUMBER OF CHURCHES THAT DO NOT BELIEVE IN MEDICAL CARE FOR CHILDREN, IT'S INTERFERENCE IN PARENTAL RIGHTS, THIS SORT OF THING.

WE DON'T LIVE IN A THEOCRACY, LET'S TRY TO REMEMBER THAT.

>> Gene: GOOD LAST POINT THERE.

THANKS TO OUR LINE OPINION PANEL.

I'LL BE BACK HERE AT THE TABLE WITH THIS GROUP TO TALK ABOUT THE WIDER LEGAL STRATEGIES AT PLAY HERE AND HOW THIS COULD SHAKE OUT ON THE STATE AND NATIONAL LEVELS, AS WE JUST DISCUSSED.

THAT'S IN LESS THAN TEN MINUTES.

>> Ives: THIS IS THE STRUGGLE AT THIS POINT.

IF WHAT WE HAVE IS AN ACTIVIST U.S. SUPREME COURT, THEN THEY WILL USE WHATEVER TOOL IS PUT IN FRONT OF THEM TO STRIP OUR ABILITY TO ENJOY REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, AND MANY OTHER RIGHTS THAT WE RELY UPON.

AND THEY'VE DEFINITELY INDICATED THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE MAY BE ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK.

THERE'S ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

>> Gene: THE CITY OF HOBBS IS ONE OF SIX MUNICIPALITIES AROUND NEW MEXICO TO ADOPT AN ORDINANCE LIMITING ACCESS TO ABORTION.

WE WANTED TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE MEASURE CAME TO BE AND WHY, AND WHERE CITY LEADERS THINK IT MAY BE HEADED.

SO I CAUGHT UP WITH MAYOR SAM COBB TO ASK.

>> Gene: HOBBS MAYOR SAM COBB, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

WE'RE CURIOUS ABOUT SOME THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON THERE, OF COURSE.

HOBBS CITY COMMISSION VOTED ON NOVEMBER 7TH LAST YEAR TO ADOPT AN ORDINANCE AMENDING TITLE 5 OF THE HOBBS MUNICIPAL CODE REQUIRING ABORTION PROVIDERS IN HOBBS TO COMPLY WITH FEDERAL LAW, AND THAT WAS CITING, OF COURSE, THE FEDERAL COMSTOCK ACT.

WHY DID YOU FEEL THIS WAS A NECESSARY STEP FOR YOUR COMMUNITY?

>> Cobb: I THINK OUR RESPONSE WAS BASED ON WHAT WE HAD RECEIVED FROM OUR CITIZENS.

THEY HAD COME TO US WITH SOME CONCERNS AS THE ROE vs. WADE DECISION CAME DOWN, AND THEN THERE WAS A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT ABORTION PROVIDERS IN TEXAS MOVING TO COMMUNITIES IN NEW MEXICO, AND THOSE COMMUNITIES ON THE EASTERN SIDE, NATURALLY, FROM A LOGISTIC STANDPOINT STOOD PROBABLY A GREATER POSSIBILITY OF HAVING AN ABORTION PROVIDER COME TO THE COMMUNITY.

WITH THAT REQUEST FROM THE CITIZENS, WE ENGAGED OUR LEGAL DEPARTMENT, AND THEY DID SOME RESEARCH INTO THE COMSTOCK LAW AND FOUND THAT IT IS FEDERAL LEGISLATION THAT HAS NOT EVER BEEN REPEALED BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THAT PROVIDES, UNDER A BUSINESS OPERATION OR BUSINESS REGISTRATION LICENSE, CERTAIN COMPLIANCE TO CERTAIN FEDERAL STATUTES AS IT RELATES TO THE USE OF THE MEDICAL DEVICES AND THE DRUGS THAT CAN BE USED FOR THAT PURPOSE.

AND SO IT RELATES TO INTERSTATE COMMERCE.

SO WITH THAT IN MIND, WE HAD A NUMBER OF PUBLIC MEETINGS.

WE HAD SEVERAL HUNDRED OF OUR CITIZENS COME TO THOSE PUBLIC MEETINGS AND TESTIFY IN FAVOR OF THE ORDINANCE.

WE HAD APPROXIMATELY LESS THAN TEN INDIVIDUALS THAT CAME TO THE COMMISSION AND TESTIFIED AGAINST THE ORDINANCE.

SO YOU KNOW, REALLY, THOSE OF US IN ELECTED POSITIONS, CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF SOMETIMES, WE'RE SUPPOSED TO REFLECT THE WISHES OF OUR CONSTITUENTS, AND SO THAT'S WHAT WE DID.

>> Gene: ARE THOSE PENALTIES INCLUSIVE OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES, AS WELL, IF THEY DO VIOLATE THOSE STANDARDS THAT HAVE BEEN LAID OUT?

>> Cobb: YOU KNOW, AS IT -- FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, THEY WOULD LOSE THEIR BUSINESS REGISTRATION.

I'M NOT AWARE IN THE ORDINANCE, ITSELF, THAT IT PROVIDES FOR CRIMINAL PENALTIES.

>> Gene: LEA COUNTY, OF WHICH OF COURSE HOBBS SITS, HAS A SIMILAR ORDINANCE ON THE BOOKS.

IT WAS ACTUALLY KIND OF PUT TOGETHER ABOUT THE SAME TIME.

DID YOU CONSULT WITH LEA COUNTY, AND WAS THERE A SENSE OF -- AGAIN, YOU'RE WORKING WITH THE SAME CONSTITUENTS WITH THE SAME DESIRE IN THE COUNTY AS YOU WOULD IN THE CITY OF HOBBS.

WAS THERE A WAY YOU GUYS WORKED TOGETHER ON THIS?

>> Cobb: NO, THERE WAS NO -- I DID NOT MEET WITH ANY OF THE LEADERSHIP OF THE COUNTY.

OUR ORDINANCE WAS PURELY BASED ON WHAT WE HAD RECEIVED FROM OUR CONSTITUENTS IN PUBLIC MEETINGS THAT WE HAD.

I KNOW THAT THERE WAS ANOTHER COMMUNITY, CLOVIS, THAT WAS MUCH IN THE SAME SITUATION ABOUT THE SAME TIME.

I HAD SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH THE MAYOR OF CLOVIS AND INFORMED HIM OF WHAT WE WERE GOING TO DO, AND WE SENT HIM A DRAFT OF OUR ORDINANCE.

BUT ANY OF THE OTHER COMMUNITIES, I PERSONALLY, NOR AM I AWARE OF ANY MY COMMISSIONERS THAT HAD ANY DIRECT COMMUNICATION WITH ANY OF THE OTHER COMMISSIONERS OR ELECTED OFFICIALS IN THOSE OTHER COMMUNITIES.

>> Gene: YOU KNOW HOW IN THE BIGGER CITIES WE LIKE TO POLL ON ANYTHING.

I'M CURIOUS IF YOU POLLED IN HOBBS ON THIS, EITHER PRIVATELY OR THE MUNICIPALITY ITSELF.

>> Cobb: WE DID NOT.

I MEAN, WE HAD LITERALLY STANDING ROOM ONLY.

PEOPLE HAD -- LITERALLY, WE HAD HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE THAT CAME TO OUR COMMISSION MEETING.

THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD POLL WITHIN ITSELF.

SO THAT IS HOW WE BASED OUR DECISION-MAKING, WAS ON THAT.

AND OF COURSE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLLS ACROSS THE STATE, IT'S PRETTY EVENLY DIVIDED, THE ABORTION ISSUE, BOTH ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL AND ON A STATEWIDE LEVEL.

IT'S A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT -- IT'S A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION IN OUR COUNTRY, AND HOPEFULLY WE CAN COME UP TO AN AMICABLE SOLUTION.

BUT IT'S BEEN VERY POLARIZING, THERE'S NO DOUBT.

>> Gene: PASTOR MARK LEE OF TEXAS HAS BEEN HELPING LOTS OF MUNICIPALITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY GET THESE ORDINANCES SQUARED AWAY.

WAS HE A HELP FOR YOU FOLKS ON THIS ONE?

>> Cobb: NO, OUR LEGAL TEAM DRAFTED THE ORDINANCE.

HE REVIEWED IT AND SAID HE FELT LIKE IT WAS A VERY WELL WRITTEN DOCUMENT.

BUT AS FAR AS HIM PROVIDING US, YOU KNOW, ANY LANGUAGE REGARDING THAT, WE RELIED ON OUR LEGAL TEAM HERE.

WE HAVE A VERY COMPETENT LEGAL STAFF AND THEY RESEARCHED IT THEMSELVES.

THEY LOOKED AT CASE LAW, THEY LOOKED AT A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

AND SO THE ORDINANCE THAT WAS DRAFTED WAS DRAFTED INTERNALLY.

IT WAS NOT PROVIDED BY AN OUTSIDE SOURCE.

>> Gene: AND THAT INCLUDES THEIR ATTORNEY, JONATHAN MITCHELL?

WAS HE A HELP ON THIS AT ALL?

>> Cobb: ONLY FROM A MORAL SUPPORT, NOT ANYTHING REGARDING THE DRAFTING OF THE ORDINANCE.

>> Gene: YOU SEE WHAT I'M LEADING UP TO?

A LOT OF THE CRITICISM, IT FEELS LIKE IT'S BEING DRIVEN BY OUT-OF-STATE PEOPLE.

WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

OR AM I HEARING YOU CORRECTLY AT THE BEGINNING THAT THIS IS STRICTLY DRIVEN FROM THE DIRT OF HOBBS, SO TO SPEAK, LIKE RIGHT THERE WITHOUT ANY OUTSIDE HELP?

>> Cobb: DURING OUR PUBLIC MEETINGS, WE DO NOT LIMIT IT ONLY TO HOBBS RESIDENTS.

WE HAD SOME RESIDENTS FROM TEXAS, I WOULD SAY MAYBE FOUR OR FIVE.

A COUPLE OF LUBBOCK, A COUPLE OF ODESSA.

BUT THAT WAS NOT THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE INVOLVED IN TESTIFYING TO THE COMMISSION REGARDING THEIR DESIRES FOR THIS PARTICULAR ORDINANCE.

SO IT WAS NOT REALLY DRIVEN BY OUT-OF-STATE FOLKS.

>> Gene: TO KIND OF BROADEN IT OUT JUST A LITTLE BIT HERE, TALK ABOUT VALUES.

OBVIOUSLY YOU TALKED TO A LOT OF FOLKS IN THE AREA, IN HOBBS AND THE SURROUNDINGS AREA.

IS THERE A SENSE THAT THEIR VALUES ARE JUST NOT BEING REFLECTED IN SANTA FE, ABORTION ASIDE FOR A SECOND?

IS THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE, THAT THE VALUES ARE NOT BEING REFLECTED IN CERTAIN PARTS OF NEW MEXICO OUT OF SANTA FE, SIR?

>> Cobb: WITHOUT A DOUBT.

NEW MEXICO IS A VERY DIVERSE STATE, BOTH IN DEMOGRAPHICS AND GEOGRAPHY, AND CERTAINLY THE SOUTHEASTERN CORNER OF THE STATE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VERY CONSERVATIVE PART OF THE STATE.

AND ONE NOT BEING BETTER THAN THE OTHER, THERE ARE DIFFERENCES OF OPINION AS YOU GO ACROSS THE STATE AND IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF THE STATE.

SO I THINK OUR ACTIONS REFLECTED THE WISHES OF OUR CONSTITUENTS, AND IT'S NOT TO SAY ONE'S RIGHT AND ONE'S WRONG, BUT WE'RE HERE TO REPRESENT THE PEOPLE IN OUR COMMUNITY THAT HAVE ELECTED US TO BE IN THESE POSITIONS.

>> Gene: ARE YOU PERSONALLY HOPING TO GET A CASE IN FRONT OF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT AT THE END OF THE DAY?

>> Cobb: I REALLY DON'T.

I MEAN, THIS WAS NOT DONE AS A SHOT ACROSS THE BOW TO TRY TO CREATE POLITICAL DIVISION, IT WAS MERELY DONE AS A RESPONSE TO OUR LOCAL COMMUNITY AND THEIR DESIRE TO HAVE SOMETHING ON THE BOOKS REGARDING THE OPERATION OF AN ABORTION CLINIC WITHIN OUR COMMUNITY.

>> Gene: WELCOME BACK TO OUR LINE OPINION PANEL.

WE JUST HEARD FROM THE MAYOR OF HOBBS, WHICH PASSED ITS ABORTION ORDINANCE LAST NOVEMBER.

LIKE OTHER MUNICIPALITIES TAKING ACTION LIKE THIS, HOBBS CITED THE FEDERAL COMSTOCK ACT.

NOW, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THAT SET OF LAWS FROM THE 1870s HERE ON THE SHOW, AND YOU'LL HEAR MORE ABOUT IT IN GWYNETH'S INTERVIEW WITH A CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY IN ABOUT TEN MINUTES.

NOW, THE FOLKS PUSHING THESE BANS SAY IT ESSENTIALLY PROHIBIT THE MAILING OF ABORTION PILLS, AND THESE LOCALITIES ARE USING IT AS THE BEDROCK OF THEIR ORDINANCES.

NOW, ABORTION RIGHTS SUPPORTERS SAY LEANING ON THAT COMSTOCK ACT IS PART OF A STRATEGY AIMED AT A NATIONAL BAN, BUT THE MAYOR OF HOBBS SAID THE CITY LEADERS ARE JUST RESPONDING TO WHAT THEIR CONSTITUENTS WANT.

DIANE, IF THIS IS WHAT THE PEOPLE IN HOBBS AND ELSEWHERE WANT, DOES IT MATTER WHERE THE LEADERSHIP DUG UP THE FOUNDATION BEHIND IT?

MEANING, WHY ARE WE PICKING CERTAIN LOCALITIES HERE?

IS IT REALLY THE PEOPLE DRIVING THIS?

>> Diane: I THINK THAT CERTAINLY THEY ARE BEING ENCOURAGED TO ACTION BY SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS, PERHAPS -- I THINK WE MENTIONED EARLIER THE GENTLEMAN FROM TEXAS AND OTHERS FROM OUT-OF-STATE DOING THE PUSHING.

BUT KNOWING QUITE A FEW OF THE PEOPLE FROM THAT AREA, I BELIEVE THAT THEY VERY MUCH BELIEVE IN THIS.

IT'S JUST LIKE ANY ISSUE, SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO HAVE A LITTLE HELP TO GET THE ISSUE GOING.

SO YES, I THINK THEY DO SUPPORT THIS.

I THINK THEY DO BELIEVE THIS.

AND IT'S VERY -- THAT'S THE THING THAT'S, TO ME, SO FASCINATING AND ALSO SO CONSTRICTING IN MANY WAYS, IS THESE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES BELIEVE, WITH ALL THEIR HEARTS, THAT THEY'RE ON THE RIGHT SIDE, AND SOMETIMES THEY DO BRING GOD INTO IT, BUT IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO SAY, WELL, SOMEBODY IS JUST LEADING THEM TO THE WATER.

WELL, YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM DRINK.

AND THE COMMISSIONERS DID VOTE FOR IT, AND THE PEOPLE.

BUT KNOWING THE PEOPLE FROM THAT AREA, I THINK VERY MUCH THEY SUPPORTED IT.

>> Gene: SURE, ABSOLUTELY.

INTERESTING, MARTHA, A CLAUSE IN THE HOBBS ORDINANCE, STICKING WITH HOBBS, LABELS ABORTION PROVIDERS AS RACKETEERING ENTERPRISES.

IT'S INTERESTING.

IT ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO SUE THOSE PROVIDERS UNDER THE FEDERAL CIVIL RICO STATUTE, THE THING THAT WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED TO GO AFTER THE MOB BACK EAST YEARS AGO, BACK IN THE EIGHTIES.

IS THAT A VIABLE LEGAL STRATEGY IN YOUR MIND?

>> Martha: NO, IT'S A STUPID STRATEGY.

I JUST HAVE TO SAY THAT.

IT'S RIDICULOUS.

IF THEY FOUND AN ATTORNEY TO EVEN TAKE THAT, I'D SAY THAT PERSON OUGHT TO BE DISBARRED, BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

BUT BACK TO THE COMSTOCK ACT, I THINK IT'S AN INTERESTING PLOY FOR PEOPLE TO SAY, WELL, THIS IS WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT IN OUR TOWN OR OUR COUNTY, OR WHATEVER.

PEOPLE DON'T GET TO VOTE ON YOUR FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS.

THEY DON'T GET A SAY IN THAT.

NOW, THE THEOCRACY FOLKS SEEM TO THINK THEY DO.

BUT GOING BACK TO THE COMSTOCK ACT, ITSELF, THE BEDROCK OF THAT IS A PHRASE THAT SAYS, OBSCENE MATERIALS.

WELL, IF WE'RE GOING TO ENFORCE THAT, WE DIDN'T HAVE VIAGRA BACK THEN, BUT WE DID PROBABLY HAVE SOME FORM OF CONDOM.

BUT IF WE'RE GOING TO THROW OBSCENE MATERIALS AT BIRTH CONTROL PILLS, LET'S DO IT WITH CONDOMS AND VIAGRA.

WHY NOT?

>> Gene: IT WOULD SEEM TO BE UNDER THE SAME -- >> Martha: IT CERTAINLY WOULD.

IF YOU WANT TO CALL ONE THING OBSCENE BECAUSE IT HAS TO DO WITH WOMEN, BUT THE OTHER BECAUSE IT DOES NOT, THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE SEX DISCRIMINATION ON ITS FACE.

>> Gene: THAT'S HARD TO ARGUE, ACTUALLY.

THAT'S INTERESTING.

YOU KNOW, ELISE, THE STATE SUPREME COURT IS NOW CONSIDERING THE CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THESE ORDINANCES, OF COURSE, AS WE KNOW, AFTER A PETITION FROM THE A.G. RAUL TORREZ.

WAS THAT A MISTAKE?

I'VE GOT A QUESTION HERE.

DID MR. TORREZ MAKE A MISTAKE ON POSSIBLY ANTAGONIZING THE U.S. SUPREME COURT INTO A NATIONAL ABORTION BAN?

MEANING, COULD HE HAVE MAYBE LAID OFF JUST A LITTLE BIT AND NOT GOTTEN ENGAGED SO QUICKLY?

>> Elise: I DON'T KNOW.

>> Gene: YEAH, THAT'S A TOUGH ONE.

>> Elise: YEAH, I HAVEN'T ACTUALLY -- YOU KNOW, THROUGHOUT MY REPORTING, I'VE REACHED OUT TO HIS OFFICE A NUMBER OF TIMES AND GOTTEN STATEMENTS AND ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FROM HIS SPOKESPERSON, BUT I HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM ABOUT IT SPECIFICALLY.

I DO THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE PETITION ONLY MENTIONED THE FOUR CITIES, IT DIDN'T MENTION KIND OF GOING FORWARD.

SO THAT MEANS EUNICE AND EDGEWOOD WERE NOT ACTUALLY INCLUDED IN THAT.

AS FOR GOING TO THE FEDERAL SUPREME COURT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT.

I THINK EVERYBODY IS KIND OF TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO IN THESE UNCHARTED WATERS.

>> Gene: WELL, WE'VE GOT LEGAL FIGHTS STARTING AT EUNICE, HOBBS, CLOVIS, LEA AND ROOSEVELT COUNTIES.

IT'S NOT QUITE DAVID AND GOLIATH, BUT THESE ARE NOTABLY SMALLER COMMUNITIES.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

WITH NOTABLY SMALLER BUDGETS TO FIGHT THESE KIND OF THINGS.

WHO'S GOING TO PAY FOR THESE MASSIVE TABS FOR LEGAL REPRESENTATION?

HAS THIS COME UP AT ALL IN ANY OF THESE ARGUMENTS?

>> Elise: IT DID COME UP IN EDGEWOOD, AND THAT'S THE ONLY MEETING I ACTUALLY ATTENDED.

AND ACTUALLY, JONATHAN MITCHELL, WHO IS THE ATTORNEY WHO WORKS WITH MARK LEE DICKSON IN TEXAS, HE HAS ACTUALLY OFFERED HIS SERVICES PRO BONO.

>> Gene: OH, NO KIDDING?

THAT'S WHAT I WAS WONDERING, OKAY.

>> Elise: AND THE COMMISSIONERS DID VOTE TO ACCEPT THAT HELP.

OF COURSE, HE'S NOT LICENSED IN NEW MEXICO, SO HE DOES HAVE TO WORK A NEW MEXICO ATTORNEY, BUT THEY SAID THAT -- >> Diane: DID HE SAY THAT?

BECAUSE MANY TEXAS ATTORNEYS ARE LICENSED, AND VICE VERA.

>> Elise: YEAH, IT DID COME UP THAT HE WORKS WITH ANOTHER ATTORNEY KIND OF BASED OUT OF ALBUQUERQUE, WHO I THINK ALSO IS DOING IT PRO BONO, ALTHOUGH I'M NOT 100 PERCENT ON THAT.

>> Duane: YES, THERE IS A LOCAL ATTORNEY.

>> Elise: AND THEN, ALSO, THE CITY ATTORNEYS WITH EDGEWOOD, AS WELL.

YEAH, MOST OF THOSE FOLKS HAVE -- >> Gene: YOU SEE WHERE I'M GETTING AT, MARTHA?

THIS COULD TIE UP A SMALL COMMUNITY SOLELY FOR A LONG TIME, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

AND CHOKE OUT OTHER THINGS YOU NEED TO DO.

>> Martha: YES, IT COULD.

AND I WANT TO GO BACK TO WHO WAS IN THE AUDIENCE, BECAUSE THE MAJORITY WERE FROM OUTSIDE THAT WERE IN FAVOR OF THIS, AND THE ACTUAL CITIZENS THAT WOULD HAVE TO PICK UP THE TAB WERE EVENLY DIVIDED.

AND SOMETHING TELLS ME THAT IF THEY REALLY START LOOKING AT WHAT IT'S GOING TO COST, AND NOT JUST IN MONEY, BUT LACK OF SERVICES -- LET'S SAY YOUR SIDEWALK CRACKS, OR YOUR STREET IS TORN UP, AND YOU CAN'T GET A POTHOLE FIXED BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY, THEY'VE GOT TO PAY FOR THIS ABORTION FIGHT.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE GOING TO START TO RETHINK THAT, AND PROBABLY THEY ARE ALREADY RETHINKING, WHY ARE OUTSIDERS COMING INTO OUR COMMUNITY AND TRYING TO TELL US WHAT IS BEST FOR US?

>> Gene: WELL, ELISE SNAGGED A QUOTE FROM COMMISSIONER FILANDRO ANAYA.

YOU KNOW, "THEY'RE BASICALLY USING US AS A PAWN," WAS PART OF THE QUOTE.

THAT'S INTERESTING WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT.

>> Diane: BUT THAT'S NOT UNUSUAL.

IN TEXAS, THERE ARE PRO-CHOICE GROUPS TRYING TO DO THE SAME KIND OF THING.

THE CITY OF AUSTIN IS ONE WE DISCUSSED SEVERAL WEEKS AGO.

>> Martha: WHAT EXACTLY ARE THEY DOING?

>> Diane: TRYING TO DO IT THROUGH MUNICIPALITIES.

>> Martha: DO WHAT?

>> Diane: MAKE CHANGES TO THE TEXAS LAW.

IT'S JUST PEOPLE -- WE'RE REVERSING THE GROUPS AND THEIR STANDINGS FROM NEW MEXICO TO TEXAS.

IT'S NOT JUST THE PEOPLE IN NEW MEXICO THAT ARE STANDING UP AND FIGHTING FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

AND I DON'T KNOW ABOUT WHO WAS IN THE AUDIENCE, BUT I KNOW LOTS OF PEOPLE FROM HOBBS AND CLOVIS AND EDGEWOOD, AND THEY ARE THAT CONSERVATIVE.

AND I SEE WHAT WILL HAPPEN IS THEY MAKE THEIR STAND, AND THEN YOU END UP BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT -- MIGHT BE INDIANA, MIGHT BE TEXAS, MIGHT BE WHOEVER -- AND OUR CITIES AND COMMUNITIES WILL END UP FILING AMICUS BRIEFS.

THEY WILL NOT HAVE TO GO -- THEY WILL NOT BE SPENDING AS MUCH MONEY.

IN THE STATE, YES, BUT NOT OUTSIDE.

>> Gene: QUICK QUESTION.

I HAVE JUST A LITTLE BIT OF TIME HERE.

MARTHA, I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU.

ACCORDING TO A NEW REPORT LAST MONTH FROM THE SOCIETY OF FAMILY PLANNING, THERE'S BEEN A DRAMATIC DROP IN ABORTIONS NATIONWIDE SINCE THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED ROE v. WADE.

32,000 FEWER BETWEEN JULY AND DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR.

FIRST, ARE YOU BUYING THOSE NUMBERS, AND SECOND, DO YOU SEE A SIMILAR DROP BECAUSE OF THESE MUNI ORDINANCES.

ARE THESE GOING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE DROPPING OF ABORTIONS IN THOSE PLACES?

>> Martha: I THINK THEY WILL IN SOME CASES, GENE.

THINK ABOUT WHAT IT COSTS TO COME FROM TEXAS, EVEN JUST RIGHT ACROSS THE BORDER.

GASOLINE IS SIXTY BUCKS A TANK, YOU GOT TO EAT, IN MANY CASES YOU HAVE TO SPEND THE NIGHT, YOU HAVE TO GET CHILD CARE IF YOU'VE ALREADY GOT KIDS.

THERE ARE LOTS OF EXPENSES WHEN YOU HAVE TO TRAVEL.

AND IF YOU HAVE TO TRAVEL REALLY LONG DISTANCES, YEAH.

BUT WHAT PEOPLE MISS IS THAT'S WHAT IS CONTRIBUTING TO THE DROP IN ABORTIONS.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE CHANGING THEIR MIND AND THE NEED FOR ABORTION IS GOING AWAY, OR THE SUPPORT FOR IT IS GOING AWAY, WHAT'S HAPPENING IS, IT'S GETTING TOO EXPENSIVE TO GET.

>> Gene: THANK YOU TO EACH OF OUR PANELISTS THIS WEEK.

WE KNOW THIS IS A DEEP AND EMOTIONAL TOPIC FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR HELP PRESENTING IT TO THE STATE.

FOR YOU WATCHING AT HOME, BE SURE TO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANY OF THE TOPICS THE LINE COVERED ON OUR FACEBOOK, TWITTER, OR INSTAGRAM PAGES, AND CATCH UP ON ANY EPISODE YOU MAY HAVE MISSED ON THE PBS APP, YOUR ROKU, OR YOUR SMART TV.

NOW IT'S TIME TO HEAR FROM A LONG TIME CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY, LAURA SCHAUER IVES, ABOUT HOW THE LARGER LEGAL BATTLE COULD SHAKE OUT.

LAURA'S PERSPECTIVE ON WHERE THINGS STAND TODAY IS A MIX OF HOPE, CONCERN AND CAUTION.

SHE SAT DOWN WITH CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND TO TALK IT THROUGH.

>> Gwyneth: LAURA SCHAUER IVES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.

>> Ives: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Gwyneth: WE ARE VERY GLAD TO HAVE YOUR INSIGHT ON SOME OF THE COMPLICATED LEGAL WRANGLING HAPPENING RIGHT NOW AROUND ABORTION.

WHEN THE U.S. SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED ROW v. WADE, THE MAJORITY SAID, THIS SHOULD BE AN ISSUE DECIDED BY THE STATES.

BUT WHAT DOES THAT ACTUALLY MEAN?

LIKE, WHAT ARE THE MECHANISMS, WHAT ARE THE LEGAL PATHWAYS THAT STATES CAN DECIDE ABOUT ABORTION?

>> Ives: THEY CAN DO THAT LEGISLATIVELY.

THEY CAN DO THAT VIA BALLOT MEASURES.

THEY CAN DO THAT VIA CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.

AND THEN THE ISSUE CAN ALSO BE DECIDED BY THE STATE SUPREME COURT.

THOUGH THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT SAID THAT THIS WOULD BE AN ISSUE LEFT TO THE STATES, THAT'S NOT CLEAR.

>> Gwyneth: AND ALL ROADS LEAD TO ROME, AND ROME BEING THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

>> Ives: EXACTLY.

>> Gwyneth: SO IT'S IN THE STATES, BUT IT'S EVENTUALLY GOING TO GET BACK THERE.

DO THE PRO-ABORTION RIGHTS GROUPS OR ANTI-ABORTION RIGHTS GROUPS, WHICH OF THEM WANTS TO GET TO ROME FASTEST?

>> Ives: ABSOLUTELY THE ANTI-ABORTION RIGHTS GROUPS, THE ANTI-CHOICE GROUPS, WANT TO GET THERE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS A VERY CONCERTED EFFORT IN NEW MEXICO BY OUT-OF-STATE EXTREMISTS TO KIND OF SCATTER SHOT, THROW OUT WHATEVER THEY CAN -- AND THIS IS HAPPENING NATIONALLY, AS WELL -- TO GET THIS BACK TO THE SUPREME COURT, GET IT IN THE FEDERAL COURTS, WHO THEY VIEW AS MORE SYMPATHETIC TO THEIR CAUSE.

SO THERE ARE REALLY A VARIETY OF PATHS THERE, ACTUALLY.

THAT COULD BE THROUGH FEDERAL ACTS THAT, YOU KNOW, A NEW CONGRESS COULD ENACT.

IT COULD BE OLD LAWS THAT THEY'RE POINTING TO.

IT COULD BE A REIMAGINING OF OUR DUE PROCESS CLAUSE.

THERE ARE A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT COULD HAPPEN GOING FORWARD.

>> Gwyneth: THE LAWS AROUND REPRODUCTIVE CARE AND GENDER AFFIRMING CARE NOW ARE VERY LIBERAL, ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO SOME OF OUR NEIGHBORS LIKE TEXAS, WHICH ARE SOME OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE.

BUT THEN YOU HAVE THESE BORDER COMMUNITIES OF HOBBS, YOU KNOW, THESE PLACES RIGHT ON THE BORDER WITH TEXAS THAT ARE CONSERVATIVE COMMUNITIES, AND THEY ARE NOT IN CHARGE IN SANTA FE ANYMORE, AS THEY HAVE BEEN IN PREVIOUS DECADES, AND THEY FEEL -- YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES FEEL THAT NEW MEXICO'S LAWS DON'T REPRESENT WHERE THEY ARE ON THIS.

SO WHY SHOULD THEY NOT BE ABLE TO PASS LAWS THAT APPLY IN THOSE COUNTIES WHERE CONSERVATIVES ARE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE?

>> Ives: WELL, FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

ONE, HEALTH CARE SHOULD NOT BE PATCHWORK THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

THAT'S CHAOTIC.

THERE'S A REASON TO HAVE SORT OF UNIFORM REGULATIONS AND LAWS THAT GOVERN THE PROVISION OF HEALTH CARE.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S SORT OF ALWAYS THE CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTION, CAN YOU DETERMINE SOMEBODY'S FREEDOMS, SOMEBODY'S CHOICES BY MERELY WHETHER A GROUP OF PEOPLE OR NOT RAISES THEIR HANDS?

IN ABORTION, THAT'S A PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT THING TO DO.

ABORTION SHOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER HEALTH CARE.

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF DECISIONS THAT PEOPLE MAKE THAT ARE CONSEQUENTIAL AND SIGNIFICANT.

THEY RELY ON THEIR DOCTOR'S ADVICE, THEIR OWN FAMILY'S COUNSEL, THEIR OWN RELIGION, THEIR OWN BELIEFS, AND REPRODUCTIVE CARE SHOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT THAN THAT.

AND WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT RESTRICTIONS LATER IN A PREGNANCY, THAT REALLY JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN UNLESS SOMETHING CATASTROPHIC IS HAPPENING.

AND WE'RE SEEING NOW IN THESE STATES THAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING AS MORE CONSERVATIVE WHERE, YOU KNOW, WHAT ADVOCATES HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR A GOOD WHILE, WHICH IS, WOMEN ARE GOING TO BE IN PERIL AS A RESULT OF THIS.

LIKE, PREGNANCIES CAN ACTUALLY PUT US AT RISK, PUT OUR LIVES AT RISK, AND THAT'S HAPPENING.

SO THAT SHOULD BE A WOMAN AND HER DOCTOR MAKING THAT DECISION.

>> Gwyneth: SO WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS THIS STRATEGY, AND YOU MENTIONED A NATIONAL STRATEGY, TO PASS ORDINANCES AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, WHICH WE'VE SEEN IN SEVERAL PLACES HERE IN NEW MEXICO, AND IT'S A NATIONAL STRATEGY TO DO, WHAT?

TO PROVOKE A COURT CASE?

>> Ives: ULTIMATELY, THE AIM IS TO GET THIS QUESTION TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, WHO THEY VIEW AS SYMPATHETIC, AND FOR A NATIONAL BAN ON ABORTION.

THAT IS UNDOUBTEDLY WHAT THE AIM IS.

>> Gwyneth: SO NEW MEXICO HAS A DEMOCRAT AS ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO HAS BEEN ACTIVE ON THIS ISSUE.

IN TERMS OF THIS STRATEGY FOR PRO-ABORTION RIGHTS GROUPS, IS THIS A GOOD THING THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS GETTING INVOLVED?

>> Ives: FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE PRO-CHOICE, IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT LANDSCAPE TO NAVIGATE RIGHT NOW.

AND SO I THINK HAVING THE NEW MEXICO SUPREME COURT, IF THEY ULTIMATELY DO, SAY THAT THERE'S A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO ABORTION OR REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE IN NEW MEXICO, THAT IS A GOOD THING.

WHERE IT BECOMES DIFFICULT IS IT'S NOT FAIL SAFE.

>> Gwyneth: ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, THE FUTURE DEPENDS ON A NUMBER OF THINGS, INCLUDING ELECTIONS.

WE'RE SEEING THE CONSEQUENCES OF ELECTIONS PLAYING OUT RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF COURT APPOINTMENTS, ATTORNEYS GENERAL, GOVERNORS, LEGISLATURES, CITY COUNCILS, COUNTY COMMISSIONS, AND ALL OF THAT COULD CHANGE, TOO.

>> Ives: ABSOLUTELY.

WE WOULD BE IN A VERY, VERY DIFFERENT PLACE IF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT LOOKED DIFFERENT, AND WE WOULD BE IN A VERY, VERY DIFFERENT PLACE IN NEW MEXICO IF WE DIDN'T HAVE THE PEOPLE IN THEIR POSITIONS THAT WE DO RIGHT NOW.

SO YEAH, EVERYTHING, EVERY VOTE GENUINELY DOES MATTER AT THIS POINT.

>> Gwyneth: I WANTED TO ASK YOU A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE COMSTOCK ACT.

I DID A LITTLE BIT OF GOOGLING, RIGHT, AND I FOUND THAT COMSTOCK WAS A CONNECTICUT SORT OF PURITAN WHO WAS CONVINCED THAT SEX SHOULD ONLY BE FOR PROCREATION, EVEN WITHIN MARRIAGE, AND WENT AROUND THE COUNTRY KIND OF WITH A SUITCASE FULL OF THINGS, LET'S JUST SAY THAT YOU'D BE EMBARRASSED IF THE TSA PULLED THEM OUT OF YOUR SUITCASE.

BIRTH CONTROL, BUT ALSO OTHER THINGS.

HE WENT AROUND FREAKING OUT ALL-MALE LEGISLATURES AT THE TIME AND PERSUADED AN ALL-MALE CONGRESS TO PASS LAWS BANNING THINGS THAT WERE OBSCENE, RIGHT.

BUT OUR LIVES ARE FILLED WITH THINGS THAT ARE OBSCENE NOW, SO HOW CAN THIS BE -- HOW CAN THIS STILL REGULATE ABORTION OF ALL THINGS?

>> Ives: I WOULD DEFINITELY ARGUE IT CAN'T, AND THEY WOULD DIFFER.

SO IT'S A LAW THAT HAD BEEN ESSENTIALLY INVALIDATED, EVEN PRE-ROE.

>> Gwyneth: BECAUSE WE HAD COURT CASES PROTECTING THE RIGHT TO BIRTH CONTROL BEFORE THAT.

>> Ives: CORRECT.

>> Gwyneth: AND SORT OF STEP-BY-STEP, WE HAD OBSCENITY CASES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

>> Ives: CORRECT, YEAH.

THERE WERE A NUMBER OF THINGS, OTHER THAN ABORTION RELATED CASES, THAT HAVE CHIPPED AWAY AT THAT.

AND SO, YEAH.

>> Gwyneth: SO IT'S SORT OF A LOOPHOLE THAT HAS OPENED BACK UP, A PORTAL IN TIME TAKING US BACK TO THE 1870s?

>> Ives: THAT'S WHAT THEY WOULD ARGUE, AND WE WILL SEE.

WE'LL SEE IF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT HAS THE APPETITE TO DO THIS, AS THEY HOPE IT DOES.

IT WOULD NOT BE -- IT WOULD BE DISINGENUOUS.

IT SHOULDN'T -- THE U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WROTE A MEMO ON WHY THE COMSTOCK ACT SHOULDN'T APPLY IN MODERN DAY.

THEY ARE, I THINK, READING THE LAW AS ACCURATE, BUT WE WILL SEE.

THIS IS THE STRUGGLE AT THIS POINT.

IF WHAT WE HAVE IS AN ACTIVIST U.S. SUPREME COURT, THEN THEY WILL USE WHATEVER TOOL IS PUT IN FRONT OF THEM TO STRIP OUR ABILITY TO ENJOY REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, AND MANY OTHER RIGHTS THAT WE RELY UPON.

THEY HAVE DEFINITELY INDICATED THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE MAY BE ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK.

THERE'S ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

AND SO IF THIS LAW COULD GIVE THEM THAT POTENTIAL, WE'LL BE ABLE TO BETTER ASSESS THE COURT DEPENDING ON THESE SORTS OF DECISIONS.

>> Gwyneth: BUT THINKING ABOUT WHAT COMSTOCK WAS TALKING ABOUT, ABOUT PRESERVING THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE, SAY, ABOUT PRESERVING THE FAMILY, ABOUT KEEPING SEX FOR A VERY RELIGIOUSLY TIED PURPOSE, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN THIS ARGUMENT IS ABOUT NOW?

IS THIS ABOUT SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE?

IS THIS ABOUT GENDER ROLES?

IS THIS ABOUT A CERTAIN DRUG THAT SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT BE AUTHORIZED?

HELP ME THINK THIS THROUGH.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN TO YOU?

WHAT IS THIS ABOUT?

>> Ives: ALL OF THAT.

IT'S ABOUT ALL OF THAT.

AND FOR SOME PEOPLE, THE QUESTION IS VERY, VERY SIMPLE AND MORE KIND OF THE GOODNESS OF JOHN BROWN AND ABOLITIONIST LIKE.

FOR SOME PEOPLE, IT'S REALLY -- THEY JUST HAVE A MORAL OPPOSITION TO THIS.

AND I THINK FOR MANY OTHERS, IT DOES GET INTO THE MORE, LIKE, MISOGYNISTIC KIND OF QUESTION OF, THEY WISH YOU AND I WERE NOT SITTING HERE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW, AND ONE MANNER OF SO DOING OR FURTHERING THAT WOULD BE TO MAKE SURE -- IT'S A LITTLE BIT LATE FOR ME -- BUT TO MAKE SURE THAT I HAVE SEVEN CHILDREN TO BUSY MYSELF WITH.

AND SO I THINK IT IS ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO TAKE YOU AND I BACK TO THE 1800s AND TO NOT HEAR WHAT WE HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT.

>> Gwyneth: BUT THE ARGUMENTS THAT WE'RE HEARING IN COURTS NOW -- I MEAN, YOU MENTIONED PEOPLE WHO HAVE A STRONG MORAL FEELING ABOUT THIS, AND THERE'S DEFINITELY A PHILOSOPHICAL DEBATE THAT YOU CAN IMAGINE HAVING WITH SOMEONE YOU LOVE AND CARE ABOUT WHO BELIEVES DIFFERENTLY FROM YOU ON THIS, WHO JUST BELIEVES IT'S ABSOLUTELY WRONG TO HAVE AN ABORTION, BUT THAT'S NOT -- THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE DEBATE THAT ANY OF THESE LAWSUITS OR ORDINANCES ARE ABOUT, IS IT?

>> Ives: NO, IT IS NOT.

>> Gwyneth: I MEAN, LEGALLY, IT'S NOWHERE NEAR THAT.

THIS IS JUST NOT A TOPIC OF CONVERSATION, IS IT?

>> Ives: IT ISN'T, WHICH I THINK IS TELLING.

>> Gene: FOR CENTURIES, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH’S SO-CALLED DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY HAS JUSTIFIED COLONIZATION AND THE TAKING OF INDIGENOUS LANDS, DRIVING A WEDGE BETWEEN CHURCH LEADERS AND NATIVE PEOPLE.

NOW THE VATICAN HAS TURNED AWAY FROM THE DOCTRINE, GOING SO FAR AS TO ISSUE A FORMAL REPUDIATION.

INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN THE U.S. AND CANADA HAVE BEEN ASKING FOR THIS FOR YEARS, AND THOUGH IT PRESENTS A CHANCE FOR RECONCILIATION, THEY SAY IT’S JUST A START, NOT A CONCLUSION.

CORRESPONDENT ANTONIA GONZALES CAUGHT UP WITH TWO LEADERS FROM PUEBLO COMMUNITIES HERE IN NEW MEXICO TO GET THEIR PERSPECTIVE ON THE ROLE OF CATHOLICISM AFTER THE DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY.

>> Antonia: JOANNIE AND DERRICK, WELCOME TO NEW MEXICO In FOCUS.

>> Suina: OF COURSE.

>> Lente: THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> Antonia: DERRICK, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS A PRESENCE IN ALL 19 PUEBLOS IN NEW MEXICO.

WHAT HAS THE RELATIONSHIP BEEN LIKE BETWEEN THE PUEBLO COMMUNITIES AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HISTORICALLY?

>> Lente: THE CO-EXISTENCE OF CATHOLICISM AND PUEBLO RELIGION HAS BEEN ONE THAT HAS BEEN BASICALLY MELTED INTO ONE, IN MY EXPERIENCE, AND HISTORICALLY IT'S BEEN ONE THAT MY ELDERS HAVE ALSO TAKEN IN AND EMBRACED IN THEIR OWN CERTAIN WAYS.

SO I KNOW THAT IN MY COMMUNITY OF SANDIA PUEBLO, RESPECTIVELY, AND ALSO ISLETA PUEBLO, IT'S THAT TYPE OF RELATIONSHIP THAT MY ELDERS UNDERSTAND IT TO BE WE ARE LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO HAVE NOT ONLY JUST OUR NATIVE AMERICAN RELIGION AND THE CULTURAL ASPECT OF THAT, BUT ALSO TO BE ABLE TO LOOK TO AND PRAY TO AND LOOK UP TO A CATHOLIC TYPE OF RELIGION, AS WELL.

SO I THINK IT'S ONE THAT'S BLENDED ITSELF IN A WAY THAT IN MY EXPERIENCE, AND IN MY ANCESTORS' EXPERIENCE -- OBVIOUSLY IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT HISTORICALLY SPEAKING HAS BEEN A ROCKY ROAD, BUT IN MY EXPERIENCE WITH MY GRANDPARENTS AND MY PARENTS AND MYSELF, I HAVE FOUND IT TO BE ONE THAT I CAN APPRECIATE, TO BE ONE THAT I CAN LIVE IN AS A COMMUNITY, AS A PUEBLO COMMUNITY.

>> Antonia: AND JOANNIE, WHAT ABOUT FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR COMMUNITY, AND WHAT'S THE RELATIONSHIP LIKE TODAY?

>> Suina: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

I DEFINITELY FEEL LIKE IT HAS BEEN A BEAUTIFUL INTERTWINING OF OUR CULTURE AND BEING ABLE TO CO-EXIST.

I THINK THAT IN THIS PRESENT DAY MOMENT, THERE'S BEEN A CALL TO ACTION FOR TRUTH TELLING THAT IS ONGOING, AND AS WE CONTINUE TO UNVEIL ALL OF THOSE PARTS THAT CAME TO BE FOR THE FORMULATION OF THESE VARIOUS CHURCHES AND MISSIONS IN OUR COMMUNITIES, EVERYBODY HAS A LOT OF DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON IT.

FOR ME DOING THIS WORK AS A LEADER AT THE NATIONAL NATIVE AMERICAN BOARDING SCHOOL HEALING COALITION, SERVING ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS, ALSO AS A MOTHER AND DOCTORIAL CANDIDATE, IT REALLY FORCES ME TO DIG DEEP TO UNDERSTAND SOME OF THOSE IMPLICATIONS AS THEY RELATE TO THE WRONGFUL TAKING OF LAND, RESOURCES, AND THE OVERALL CULTURAL IMPACT THAT IT'S HAD ON OUR COMMUNITIES.

I FEEL THAT HERE PARTICULARLY IN THE SOUTHWEST, WE'VE EXPERIENCED CATHOLIC COLONIZATION IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SHAPE AND FORM, AND PERHAPS IN MANY WAYS WE'RE FORTUNATE THAT OUR ANCESTORS HAVE SACRIFICED WHAT THEY HAVE TO ALLOW FOR THAT BLENDING TO HAPPEN.

AND AS A MOTHER, AS A COMMUNITY CULTURAL REVITALIZER, AS A DAUGHTER, A DEVOUT CATHOLIC, IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME TO BE ABLE TO MERGE ALL OF THOSE TEACHINGS TOGETHER.

>> Antonia: AND DERRICK, TO ADD TO THAT, WHAT WAS YOUR THOUGHT OR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD THE VATICAN REJECT PUBLICLY THE DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY?

>> Lente: YOU KNOW, WHEN I HEARD THE NOTION THAT IT WAS REPUDIATED -- YOU KNOW, REPUDIATE HAS A DIFFERENT MEANING THAN RESCINDING.

COMPLETE RESCISSION IS TO COMPLETELY DISSOLVE, SO TO SPEAK, THE PAPABILES THAT SET UP THE DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY, WHICH IRONICALLY, AS SOMEONE THAT WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, THAT'S ONE OF THE FIRST CONCEPTS THAT THEY TEACH YOU IN FEDERAL INDIAN LAW, IN PROPERTY LAW, AND THAT WAS ACTUALLY SOMETHING -- THAT'S THE WAY I LEARNED HOW PROPERTY WAS BASICALLY EXTINGUISHED FROM INDIGENOUS POPULATIONS AROUND THE WORLD, RIGHT.

SO TO REPUDIATE THAT, FOR ME, I THINK IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION FROM THE HEAD PERSON OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, BUT YET I THINK THERE IS STILL A LOT MORE THAT CAN BE DONE AND SHOULD BE DONE, AND IT WILL TAKE A BRAINSTORMING OF DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS, INDIGENOUS POPULATIONS, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, ITSELF, TO ACTUALLY BECOME AND COME TO A POINT WHERE WE CAN APPRECIATE A COMPLETE RESCISSION OF THESE DOCTRINES THAT HAVE IMPACTED OUR LIVES HISTORICALLY AND LIVE ON THROUGH TODAY.

>> Antonia: AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO HEAR THAT FROM THE VATICAN, BUT TO ALSO HAVE THE ARCHBISHOP HERE IN SANTA FE AGREE WITH WHAT THE VATICAN SAID?

>> Lente: WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK FOR ME, AS ONE INDIVIDUAL THAT IS INDIGENOUS THAT COMES FROM ONE OF THE PUEBLOS THAT OBVIOUSLY WAS IMPACTED BY THE SPANISH CROWN AND THE HISTORY RELATED TO THAT, IT'S ONE THAT I CAN APPRECIATE, BUT I THINK THAT THERE'S ALWAYS MORE TO BE DONE.

SO THAT BEING SAID, I KNOW PEOPLE THAT ARE WATCHING TODAY CAN SAY, WELL, WHAT MORE CAN BE DONE?

I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF DEFINITE IDEAS THAT CAN BE FETCHED OUT, WHETHER IT'S MOVING WITH THE NOTION OF LAND BACK/WATER BACK, WHETHER IT'S THE NOTION OF HELPING TO HEAL THE WOUNDS OF, YOU KNOW, "KILL THE INDIAN, SAVE THE MAN," REMOVING CHILDREN FROM THE PUEBLOS AND MOVING THEM TO A SCHOOL TO HELP THEM TO ASSIMILATE TO BE MORE LIKE OTHER PEOPLE, I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO REEDUCATE OUR INDIVIDUALS, OUR INDIGENOUS INDIVIDUALS IN OUR COMMUNITIES TO HELP THEM LEARN THEIR LANGUAGE, APPRECIATE THEIR CULTURE, NOT BE ASHAMED OF THEIR CULTURE.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT I THINK WE CAN THINK OF AS INDIGENOUS POPULATIONS.

WE NEED TO BE THE AUTHORS OF HOW WE SEE THIS.

WHETHER YOU WANT TO CALL IT REPUDIATION OR YOU WANT TO CALL IT RESCISSION, HOW DO WE FIX THE WRONGS OF THE PAST, BUT MAKE IT BETTER SO THAT WE DON'T FEEL OURSELVES AS BEING ALWAYS THE VICTIM, BUT WE CAN RIGHT THE WRONGS OF THE PAST BY BEING THE AUTHORS OF OUR FUTURE.

>> Antonia: AND JOANNIE, THE HEALING COALITION WANTS MORE ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THE CHURCH, SOME OF THAT LAND BACK, BUT ALSO, ACCESS TO CHURCH RECORDS AND FULL SUPPORT OF A NATIONAL INVESTIGATION INTO INDIAN BOARDING SCHOOLS.

CHURCHES, NOT ONLY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, BUT OTHER CHURCHES, WERE PART OF THE BOARDING SCHOOL ERA.

>> Suina: YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

I BELIEVE THAT THE QUESTION THAT CONTINUES TO REMAIN WITH US IS, WHAT ARE THE NEXT STEPS FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO DO TO KIND TO SEEK FORGIVENESS FOR THIS WRONGFUL DOING, WHETHER THAT'S REPATRIATION, WHETHER THAT'S GIVING US ACCESS TO RECORDS, WHETHER THAT'S LAND BACK, RETURNING LAND -- THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE LARGEST LAND OWNER IN THE WORLD, 177 MILLION ACRES.

AND YET WE'RE STILL BASING THIS 15th CENTURY EDICT, THIS LAW OF DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY, OFF OF ONGOING FEDERAL INDIAN LAND POLICY THAT CONTINUES TO SET PRECEDENTS.

IN 2005, THERE WAS A CASE THAT CAME UP IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK, THE ONEIDA NATION VS.

THE CITY OF SHERRILL, AND LOOKING AT HOW IN THE CASE IT REFERENCED, FIRST AND FOREMOST, THE DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY.

AND WE CONTINUE TO SEE THAT AS CLIMATE JUSTICE WARRIORS, WHO ARE NOW ADDRESSING OUR LANDS THAT WE CAN'T PROPERLY CARE FOR.

SO IN TERMS OF NATIONAL NATIVE AMERICAN BOARDING SCHOOL HEALING COALITION AND THE WAYS THAT WE'VE COLLABORATED WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR AND SECRETARY HAALAND'S OFFICE, I FEEL VERY HOPEFUL THAT THIS CONTINUED CALL TO ACTION TO ADDRESS ALL OF THE CONTINUED IMPACTS THAT WE'RE SEEING FROM CHILDREN WHO WERE FORCIBLY REMOVED FROM THEIR FAMILY, WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE FOR WHOLE COMMUNITIES OF PEOPLE, WHOLE NATIONS OF PEOPLE, AND WHAT DOES THAT CONTINUED IMPACT HAVE ON US.

I BELIEVE THAT A LOT OF THE NOT ONLY ABUSE, THE VIOLENCE, THE SUBSTANCE ABUSE THAT WE'VE SEEN IN OUR COMMUNITIES, IT'S ALL DIRECTLY TIED TO THIS POLICY ERA OF INDIAN BOARDING SCHOOLS, WHICH GOES FURTHER TO THE OVERALL INITIATIVE IN CLAIMING LAND AND PEOPLE.

AND THIS WAS NOT JUST -- THE DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY WAS JUST NOT ABOUT CLAIMING LANDS AS ONES OWN AND DOING WITH IT WHAT ONE WANTED TO DO, BUT IT WAS GENOCIDE.

IT WAS THE MASSACRE OF WHOLE NATIONS OF PEOPLE.

AND I WANT TO HEAR THE VATICAN ADDRESS THAT.

I WANT TO HEAR OUR ARCHDIOCESE HERE IN NEW MEXICO ADDRESS THAT, SO THAT WE CAN PROPERLY HONOR.

AND REALLY, THIS IS WHAT THAT WORK IS ABOUT.

IT'S TRUTH, JUSTICE AND HEALING, AND IT'S ABOUT HONORING THOSE WHO NEVER MADE IT HOME.

WE DON'T KNOW THE LOCATIONS OF WHERE OUR CHILDREN ARE BURIED AT ALL ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, ALL ACROSS TURTLE ISLAND, AND OUR FIRST NATIONS RELATIVES IN CANADA ARE STILL EXPERIENCING THE SAME THING, AS WELL.

>> Antonia: AND DERRICK, WHAT ABOUT THE ASPECT THAT JOANNIE MENTIONED OF HEALING, WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR RECONCILIATION AND HEALING?

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO GET NOT ONLY THAT ACKNOWLEDGEMENT, BUT SOME NEXT STEPS?

>> Lente: WELL, BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN THE PAST, RIGHT?

ANYBODY THAT SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS TO THEM, YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO HEAL AND LEARN FROM THOSE EXPERIENCES AND THEN MOVE ON.

SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT HEALING, AT LEAST FROM AN INDIGENOUS POPULATIONS PERSPECTIVE WORLD WIDE, RIGHT, WHAT DOES THAT HEALING LOOK LIKE?

IS IT JUST SAYING, OKAY, BRUSH IT OFF, GET OVER IT, AND MOVE ON?

UNLIKELY.

BUT WHAT'S THE REALITY OF SAYING, OKAY, LAND BACK/WATER BACK, MOVE THESE PEOPLE BACK ONTO THEIR INDIGENOUS PROPERTIES, AND THEN LET'S MOVE ON AS A SOCIETY.

THAT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY AS WELL, RIGHT?

SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT HEALING, IT'S GOT TO BE ALL AROUND.

WHETHER IT'S TALKING ABOUT PROPERTY RIGHTS, OR WHETHER IT'S TALKING ABOUT MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL AND PHYSICAL HEALING AS A POPULATION, AS AN INDIGENOUS POPULATION, IT'S ALL ACROSS THE BOARD.

THAT'S WHY I CAN RESPECT AND I LOOK FORWARD TO THE DISCUSSIONS, IF THERE ARE DISCUSSIONS TO BE HAD BY WHETHER IT'S THE ARCHDIOCESE OF SANTA FE AND NEW MEXICO, OR IT'S BY THE POPE, HIMSELF, TO TALK ABOUT THESE AND HAVE REAL DISCUSSIONS THAT AREN'T JUST SIMPLY REPUDIATIONS AND APOLOGIES, RIGHT, BUT THEY'RE TALKING MORE ABOUT, OKAY, WE MADE A MISTAKE IN THE PAST, WE REALIZE THAT, WE RECOGNIZE IT, WE ARE SORRY FOR IT, BUT IN BEING SORRY FOR IT, THIS IS HOW WE WILL CREATE, WITH YOUR HELP AND WITH YOUR AUTHORSHIP AND WITH YOUR GUIDANCE AND LEADERSHIP, A CHANGE FOR THE FUTURE FOR THOSE THAT ARE SMALL AND THOSE THAT ARE YET TO BE BORN.

SO THAT'S HOW YOU CREATE TRUE HEALING IN A SOCIETY, TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T SEE THIS AGAIN.

BECAUSE IF WE DON'T ADDRESS THIS IN A VERY PROPER WAY, HISTORY HAS A WAY OF REPEATING ITSELF, RIGHT?

SO WE DON'T WANT TO SEE THIS AGAIN IN ANOTHER SO MANY YEARS, AND THE WAY SOCIETY HAS GROWN UP AROUND US BASED ON THESE PRINCIPLES, WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PAPABILES OR THE DOCTRINE OF DISCOVERY, OR YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW STATES RIGHTS AND FEDERAL RIGHTS TODAY TREAT TRIBES, IT IS STILL BEING IMPACTED.

SO HOW CAN WE MOVE FORWARD TO MAKE SURE THAT NOW THE STATES UNDERSTAND THIS REPUDIATION OR THE POTENTIAL RESCISSION OF THIS?

HOW DOES THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT REACT TO THAT, AS WELL, TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY CAN FIX THEIR POLICIES AROUND HOW THEY TREAT NATIVE AMERICAN INDIVIDUALS AND NATIVE AMERICAN PROPERTY AND RESPECT NATIVE AMERICAN SOVEREIGNTY?

>> Antonia: AND JOANNIE, FROM THE PUEBLO COMMUNITIES THAT YOU WORK WITH HERE IN NEW MEXICO, AND OTHER TRIBES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP?

WHAT DO PEOPLE WANT NEXT?

>> Suina: ABSOLUTELY.

I FEEL THAT IN TERMS OF ADVOCACY AT A NATIONAL LEVEL, WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER AND CONTINUE TO PUSH FOR OUR BILL, WHICH IS AT THE SENATE COMMITTEE RIGHT NOW BEING DRAFTED, AND SOON IT WILL BE ASSIGNED A BILL NUMBER.

IN THERE, IT WILL CALL FOR ALL OF THE RECORDS THAT CHURCHES MAINTAIN, SO THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO GATHER AND BUILD OUR DATABASE THAT.

SHOULD BE RELEASED LATER THIS YEAR.

AND WITHIN THAT, WE'LL BE ABLE TO TAKE A FULL ACCOUNTING OF ALL OF OUR CHILDREN AND WHERE THEY WENT TO SCHOOL, WHAT SCHOOLS THEY WERE TRAFFICKED BETWEEN, WHAT KINDS OF VIOLENCE AND EXPERIENCE THEY SUFFERED.

A LOT OF THE RECORDS THAT WE'VE DISCOVERED AT PLACES LIKE CARLISLE INDIAN INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL, PARTICULARLY IN REGARD TO PUEBLO CHILDREN, WHICH IS WHAT I HEAVILY STUDIED, DEMONSTRATE THAT MALNUTRITION, BUT WE ALSO KNOW ABOUT ALL THE SEXUAL ABUSE THAT OCCURRED.

ADDITIONALLY, IN LOOKING TOWARD BUILDING THIS DATABASE, THERE NEEDS TO BE A CALL TO ACTION FOR REPARATIONS TO FUND THIS WORK SO THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO GATHER THIS, AND THAT IS REALLY THE GOAL AT THE NATIONAL NATIVE AMERICAN BOARDING SCHOOL HEALING COALITION.

AND IF FOLKS WANT TO GET INVOLVED IN THIS WORK, THEY CAN ABSOLUTELY GO TO OUR WEBSITE, BoardingSchoolHealing.org.

>> Antonia: WELL, I WANT TO THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME TODAY, JOANNIE AND DERRICK.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> Suina: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Lente: THANK YOU.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.