- [Narrator] Racism Unveiled is a Multimedia Storytelling Initiative that aims to call out racism and highlight solutions from our communities to end systemic racism.

TPT will share content and engage our community, focusing on complex societal issues and inequities that affect the daily lives of Black, Indigenous, and People of Color in Minnesota.

Join us at racismunveiled.org.

Funded in part by Otto Bremer Trust and HealthPartners.

- Good evening.

My name is Dr. Artika Tyner, and I'd like to welcome you to the second community event on TPT's Racism Unvailed initiative.

We appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to be with us here tonight.

For those of you who may not be familiar, Racism Unveiled is a digital multimedia project focused on the root causes of racial disparities in Minnesota, and the solutions that can lead to a more equitable society.

For more information, visit racismunveiled.org.

Our goal is to leverage TPT's platforms and collaborations to engage communities, and learn more about and taking action, around racism in Minnesota.

Tonight, we will focus on Implicit Bias Within the Criminal Justice System.

First, we're joined by Dr. Jason Sole.

Abolitionist, Criminal Justice Educator, founder of Humanize My Hoodie Movement.

Welcome Dr. Jason Sole.

Next up, Judge Stephen Smith is here with us this evening.

He is a Ramsey County District Court Judge.

He was appointed to the bench in 2015.

He has served three years in the Criminal Division, and currently is assigned to the Juvenile Division.

Hello and good evening, Judge Smith.

And last but not least, we welcome Kevin Lindsey.

CEO of Minnesota Humanities Center.

And Mr. Lindsey is a widely respected advocate and lawyer, with a wealth of public policy experience.

So welcome, Mr. Lindsey.

Quick note, please feel free to post comments and submit questions for the panelists in the chat window below the video stream.

We'll try to get those questions later in the program.

So we'll start with Dr.

Sole.

My first question for you this evening.

Despite the blindfold on lady justice, bias and racism means Black and Brown people, experiencing in the criminal justice system sometimes feels more like punishment than justice.

How can our communities love and protect themselves, but also help reform that system, while holding it accountable?

- I think, first thank y'all for having me, for real.

I'm sending love to everybody behind the wall.

The women in Shakopee prison, the youth that are in detention centers.

Sending love to everybody who just came home as well like my family members who just made it back after a long stretch.

For us, we had to figure out our own ways to exist.

When I came home from prison myself, I was marked, I was stamped.

Getting pulled over, getting choked, getting harmed.

So for me, it always was a level of not only am I trying to exist, I got to protect myself from the long arm of the law.

So for us, we've always had to figure out how to love and protect ourselves.

So we have the tools, a lot of us know what it takes.

I mean, I'm grateful, I'm humbled.

You know, people invested in me so that I could be able to be a professor and, you know, trying in restorative justice all throughout this nation.

I'm grateful.

I'm a drug war veteran.

Most of the people from my neighborhood are not alive.

That's a real thing for me.

So, for me it's like talking about these things are just part of me trying to figure out the criminal justice system.

That system is just slavery.

It's just slavery disguised in other ways.

Like, they throwing us in cages.

When me and my friends talk about being in solitary confinement, we talk about how we cope to get through that.

We come up with solutions for other folks, man.

Some people already entangled in that.

Now we can say, "Hey, if you want solitary confinement, the way you keep your mind is by doing A, B, C, and D. And it's ain't gotta be, you know, evidence-based, just like community defined evidence.

I know what worked for me.

I know what allowed me to be 42 years old.

I was counted out at 16, 17.

If I'm being all the way honest.

It was just because that's how the system worked in Chicago and beyond.

Coming to Minnesota for refuge, I thought it'd be better, I thought it'd be nice but like you say, the racism wasn't unveiled when I came here in 97, as an 18 year old boy.

And they threw me in them cages real quick.

So for me, I understood.

We had to figure out how to love and protect ourselves.

So despite my career and the work I've done, I learned how to love in a way that allows me to enjoy life on this earth.

A lot of times we're caught up in this capitalistic society.

I'm here.

I got to get here.

I'm there, I got... We need to appreciate the people that's right in front of us.

And when we talk about what solutions work, we just keep talking about it and keep bringing folks in and talking about it and figuring it out for ourselves, 'cause I'm grateful.

I've had, you know, a little bit of success in reducing harm.

And you got to understand, I got shot out here.

I had to go through that whole process of not even looking like a victim, after I've been shot.

I still was looked at as a suspect.

So that's the system we talking about, man, that's no justice in that system.

So I don't expect justice, when we're in the middle of trials and I don't wanna expect justice because it's not designed.

It's just not designed that way and all the research I've seen says, prison's gotta be abolished, the cage is got to get abolished.

We got to figure this out ourselves.

There's enough resources so we can't say there's a dearth of resources or we can't find the money to do it.

We just gotta have the political will.

There's people hurting right now that are hungry.

My people go to day to day survival.

We got to figure out solutions for them.

When my cousin came home two months ago, this' the person who brought me to Minnesota, I love him to death.

When he came home, I wasn't thinking about who else was gonna help my family.

We love and protect ourselves.

If his P.O is all on his back, we got a few people that could say, "Hey, man this person is doing they job, fall back."

So this stuff is just more real for me where it's like, I don't get my hopes up for a wicked system.

It's rooted in white supremacy.

When I got caught with a gun at 19, they just figured I was just a bad throw-away person.

And I had a high school diploma, and I had played four years of basketball like I had.

None of that mattered.

So this system has shown me, It doesn't love me.

They do away with a lot of my friends, there is a lot of people behind the wall that need to come home now.

We need to free Malo Gomez.

We need to free Fila Vance.

We need to free Maureen Armin Lubich.

We need to free Carlos Smith, my, free all the real ones.

The system is wicked and it was eating us up as young boys.

I'm grateful to have my mind and my love because it could have been different for me.

And I'm grateful to be here to tell these stories and talk about this stuff.

But we had to figure out ways to be able to be successful.

I never wanted to get killed by the police, and have other people try to tell my story.

That was a real thing for me, all growing up.

15, 16 years old, I used to say, "they're not gonna write me off as a gang member and throw me in cages, I'm gonna figure it out."

And I'm just grateful to get enough time because a lot of my friends didn't get enough time.

We carried a lot of caskets, and we did not understand, that all of this was facilitated by cops in all like all the people that was supposed to be the caretakers?

They was destroying us.

My uncle went to prison at 12, came home when he was 18.

For some he ain't dude.

How do we make it through that?

We got to love and protect ourselves.

So we got to know our rights.

That's one thing we've been doing a lot of studying though.

When I came home from prison, I went to college to know my rights.

I told everybody I'm taking this stuff back to the hood.

So, I don't know if I can get a career.

I'm a three time felon.

I've been a prison, been shot, I don't look good on paper.

I had to have a vision of something different.

Harriet Tubman had a different vision for us.

Amadou Bernay has a different vision.

Colin Kaepernick has a different vision and it's rooted in abolition.

We need to follow Angela Davis.

We need to study her.

One thing we've learned through COVID, when they had to release all these people from prison?

We realized, a lot of them didn't even need to be there.

That's one thing we learned with COVID.

When everybody was like how do we get them out?

What's the best way?

What's the... You could have did this all along.

It shows you, a lot of them didn't need to be there.

Insurrections sold us, does a relationship between white supremacists and police.

So when they pulled me over and I'm 42, and they read my record, they sized me up before they get to my door, and they don't know nothing about me, or how I love my wife and my kids and my community.

They don't know that, they just smoke me.

So that's why I don't rock with that system and I'm unapologetic about abolishing it.

'Cause that's what needs to happen.

Harriet Tubman wasn't trying to organize slaves to get along, she was trying to abolish it.

And that's what I'm on, so I'm rocking in that tradition.

And you should to.

- I appreciate that and that takes us to the next question.

You described yourself as an abolitionist.

You talk about slavery manifesting in other ways today.

What does that mean when you say that you're abolitionist and what does a police free-cage, free-world look like in your view?

- It looks like us having enough conversation to be able to say, if there is harm amongst us group of 17 people, we need to decide, what does it look like to love and protect ourselves?

If you feeling unsafe, who you got to call?

Do you need any of my people who are safe people to come support?

If you have four...

If you have four community members show up once you call, would you be okay with that?

We figuring out our own solutions.

Harriet Tubman developed a system for the underground railroad.

People talk about putting her on the $20 bill, she should be on $100 bill.

She kept it real tough like it shouldn't be up for discussion but she has such an understanding of the land.

Of the idea of freedom.

Frederick Douglas had this idea of freedom.

Abolitionists wanted to abolish slavery.

They didn't know that it would be Jim Crow in a war on drugs, they didn't know that.

They knew people shouldn't have been caged.

It's the same argument we're posing right now.

It just... We say that all the time, we've been saying it in a field like, "come on, man, you see."

It's the same thing repeatedly.

Get our hopes up and stab us a million times.

How many times have we seen this?

Jamar Clark?

Philando, come on, Terrance Franklin, we can go on.

Like we can go on and on.

Is slavery, period.

I'm abolishing police in case just 'cause we just got to figure it out at this point.

If you call them, or add more police to any department, you invest in Black death.

That's why I left my job, come on, man.

y'all know I don't play that kind of stuff.

You give more money to cops, that means more oppression in Black communities.

That's all that equates to.

So for me, I gotta think abolition, I'm not doing no more training of police and all of that.

I'm done.

I did a lot of that for what?

12 years y'all seen that?

I did a lot of that, but my main work was included me meeting Angela Davis and being a freedom school teacher, and being able to reinvent myself.

If I can do that and the community can love me back into shape, we can figure out our own solutions.

We don't need to call 911, it's like, you'll hear more about a group called RIP pretty soon.

And when you hear what we've been doing, you will see we know how to love and protect ourselves.

It's just, we need everybody to understand.

People with power, have ran their campaigns on police accountability, and holding systems accountable and all of that stuff and believing in the community.

But when it comes down to making a real decision, they fold every time.

I'm an abolitionist, I can't work with that.

I'm emotional man.

But for real, I got feel this bad.

Like when I came home from prison, I needed to learn who I was and that learning, included me realizing that I had feelings.

So, you know what I'm saying?

That system has always made me feel like they'll kill me, kill my kids.

Look what they did to Fred Hampton, look what they did to Oscar Greg.

We can go Rekia Boyd.

We could go Korryn Gaines, we can go on and on.

If we don't abolish this, it's going to keep happening.

So I want us to do our work and figure out what works for us, 'cause we have the solutions.

We just second guess it, and like overthinking.

It's time to take it from here, to here.

That's what a solution's gonna be.

It can't be, I'm trying to get to this level and it's a hit, no.

The one I start I love, let's figure it out, let's study the Samaritan laws.

Let's understand how self-defense work?

I went to college to just learn my laws, to bring it back to the hood.

Now I can partner with people and really be able to teach kids their rights.

15 year olds in my neighborhood needed to know their rights, 'cause the police hated me.

And I used to say, what you doing ain't right.

You can hurt me and all of that but I know it ain't right.

And when I studied the system, I realized that the system itself was criminal, it wasn't me.

So that's what abolition looks like.

We dreaming of a world and figuring out a world, where we can all exist and when harm happens, we come back to that circle and talk through how do we repair this harm?

How do we support the person that's breathing, and how do we accept what they deem is justice?

We all need to think about what justice looks like for our individual selves.

What does justice look like to you?

First and foremost, what does justice look like to you?

Abolitionists are having these conversations so we can figure out, how are we loving and protecting ourselves and growing it out?

That's the solution.

It's not in calling somebody with a badge and a gun.

'Cause you'll get what happened.

You know, last year, around this time, man?

Justice for George Floyd, man.

We need that.

But it can't happen, with a system like that.

What does justice for George Floyd look like?

That system?

Slavery.

Let me ask you this before we go off and you can reject it but I want you to think about this.

How can they have the money to put all of that barbed wire and everything around the courthouse, but they can't feed the poor?

They can't house the poor?

It's slavery.

It just...

It's mystified and looked different now.

Go anywhere, traveling through this country, you'll see it.

- Thank you professor.

It looks like we've been taken to school.

We've been challenged to go from our minds and tap into our hearts in some real meaningful ways.

So please, make sure that you're adding your questions and the comments.

We wanna hear more, and we're gonna hear more from the professor.

Next, we're gonna turn to Judge Smith.

Judge Smith, we're gonna look at your perspective from the bench.

In what ways does implicit bias manifest itself in the justice system?

And are there any corners of the system that are more or less racist than others?

- Hmm.

Well, Dr. Tyner, I'd like to say first off that I appreciate the opportunity to be here and engage in this discussion with my esteemed panelists.

I'm gonna combine the questions that you've asked.

I'll discuss briefly the many decision points along the pathway of the criminal justice system, and how implicit bias may manifest itself along that journey.

Excuse me.

I'm gonna leave for others to discern which of these decision points are most likely to manifest racism.

As I start here, I'm gonna give you my very simplistic definition of implicit racial bias.

In my view, it is the subconscious association, of race of people with certain stereotyped characteristics or attributes.

So in other words, or as an example, there are stereotypes about Black folks.

Black folks are hostile, aggressive, angry, prone to violence, drug users, drug dealers, lazy.

We've heard all of those stereotypes and they unfortunately form implicit associations with a lot of people that are involved in our criminal justice system.

On the other hand, some of the associations that are made with white folks.

Hardworking, family-oriented, patriotic, intelligent.

I say this because as one goes through the criminal justice pathway, there are many different decision points where decisions are being made and the people making those decisions are influenced by their own implicit biases.

So let's start at the beginning.

The first contact that anybody is gonna have with the criminal justice system will be through law enforcement officers.

The police officer on the street.

That police officer exercises a tremendous amount of discretion and power.

The officer has the discretion to decide whether or not to even initiate contact with an individual.

They have the discretion to decide whether or not, circumstances will warrant allowing that person they've initiated contact with, to leave with nothing more than a warning.

They have the power and the discretion to decide whether or not the person that they have initiated contact with will be arrested.

And if those folks are operating from implicit biases that have made some of the negative associations that I've just referred to, that we know exist with respectable Black folks, then the outcome more than likely is an arrest.

And at that point, we move on to the next decision point in this criminal justice pathway.

And that is with the prosecutor's office.

You know, cases are referred to the prosecutors and as we understand and know about our system, prosecutors exercise an incredible amount of discretion and authority.

So, it is the prosecutor that makes decisions about whether or not a person is gonna be charged with a crime.

They decide what the nature of that crime is going to be?

Or the charge rather.

They decide whether or not a person will be recommended for a diversion.

That is an opportunity to avoid going further down this criminal justice pathway.

Every person is charged with a crime.

The prosecutor has the authority to decide whether they're gonna request bail and if so, how much they're gonna request?

And as we all know from the current discussions surrounding jail reform, that can have a tremendous impact on whether folks are getting released.

And a lot of those folks are Black folks.

If those decisions are influenced by implicit biases that adapt some of the more negative stereotypes about Black people, then you have decisions that are being made to the detriment of Black folks and that are in many instances for at least... Face the potential of being discriminatory.

Prosecutors make decisions about plea negotiations, and whether or not a plea will be offered.

They also have that same authority when they are making arguments before the court, with respect to sentencing.

And again, if they are operating with implicit biases, but they are not attuned to and have not worked at trying to mitigate then the consequence can be Black folks being treated in a way that is different and perhaps less favorable than white folks in similar situations.

Next point in the path way is defense counsel.

Defense counsel is a very important part of the criminal justice system.

And I'm gonna speak specifically now about public defenders because it's the public defenders that really don't get to pick and choose what cases they're going to... That they're gonna take.

And so in many jurisdictions around this country, our public defenders are overburdened.

They are under-resourced, and as a result of all of that, they are obligated to engage in what I think pejoratively is sort of looked at as triaged.

They've gotta pick and choose, where can they allocate the limited resources that they have in order to represent the particular clients?

And I think the end result is that not all of those clients... Is it possible to provide them with the best and most effective representation?

But again, when we're talking about implicit bias is that having an impact on decision-making.

You know, even public defenders who I presume have gone into this work because they do care about justice and equality, and equal access to justice.

But even public defenders can be prone to operating and making decisions that are influenced by their own implicit biases.

And so, you know, they may... That may come into play in evaluating cases, whether they think, it's a strong case.

Whether there are areas that can be exploited as part of the defense?

But at the same time, if they are allowing these implicit biases to influence decision-making, they may not in allocating resources, they may not choose or decide to investigate a case as thoroughly, or to push as hard for a particular plea agreement.

Moving on to the next stage in the pathway here.

Our judges.

We don't... We are prone as well to decision-making that is influenced by implicit biases.

And as a result, it is imperative for judges to work on gaining awareness of their own biases and then doing those things that they can to help mitigate those biases in making their decisions.

We have a lot of discretion, and we have to work hard at mitigating these implicit associations that we are prone to just as much as anyone else in society.

Associations that may be negative when it comes to People of Color and Black folks in particular.

So, that's what I would say with respect to the question that you asked that I then took the liberty of combining to talk about implicit bias.

- Thank you, your honor.

That was very helpful to see from the police interaction all the way to looking at the judicial system.

So we thank you.

We also know that you have a special concern and passion for families and children interacting with the system.

How are children in particular, harmed by bias and racism in the judicial system?

- Well, let me start first with the factors that I think that oftentimes lead kids to being introduced into our criminal justice system.

When I think about those factors, I think about things like the school-to-prison pipeline, that concept.

I think about how implicit bias influences the way in which educators see our Black children.

Some of these implicit biases, I think include stereotypes about Black children, stereotypes such as our kids are louder, more disruptive.

They're not as intelligent.

Education is not as much of a priority for them.

And so if you view a child's behavior through this lens, it is likely that you may very well misinterpret that child's behavior.

Let me give you an example.

You know, take for example, a child who may be homeless.

I see a lot of kids who are in families where if they're not homeless, they're close to it or they have unstable housing.

And so they're moving from one home to another, just trying to keep a roof over their head.

Well, you take that kid, kid comes to school one day, kids tired, 'cause, you know, they don't have a stable home and you know, their sleeping pattern may be disrupted and so on and so forth.

So the kid comes to school, perhaps the kid is hungry, hasn't had much to eat.

If you don't have a stable house, the likelihood is that you are also dealing with food insecurity as well.

Kid comes to school, he's tired, he's hungry, and you know, he starts to fall off, fall asleep in class.

Teacher gets after him, he lashes out.

Maybe he says something, calls the teacher out of his or her name, or strikes out at one of his fellow classmates.

One can if you view Black children through this bias lens.

It's very easy to misinterpret their behavior, to conform with the way in which you see Black children.

Being disruptive and violent and aggressive.

On the other hand, if you step back and you would ask that child, "you know, what's really going on with you?"

And that child had an opportunity to then explain, "I'm hungry."

Then perhaps you start looking at that child a bit differently, and you then try to work on getting the child what he or she may need.

So, implicit biases they may cause one to misinterpret a child's behavior, and in doing that, you very well could miss that child's cry for help.

A lot of these kids are dealing with trauma at home.

Sometimes they may be dealing with abuse, they may be dealing with their own mental health issues.

Now, what does all of this mean?

Studies tell us that Black kids were more likely than white kids to be suspended or expelled from school for similar behavior.

The same Black kids are the kids that are likely to be referred to school resource officers, and then they're referred on to the county attorney's office, wherein now, we've got a child who, because of all of these various social determinants that may have been impacting their behavior, yet because the educators were not able to move beyond or recognize their implicit biases, they just see disruptive Black child.

Now you've got a kid who is being introduced into justice system, by being referred to the county attorney's office, right?

I think that we spend a lot of time criminalizing adolescent behaviors that don't necessarily pose significant risk to public safety.

And perhaps are symptoms of some of the societal issues that go unaddressed amongst so many People of Color, and other marginalized communities.

So I have spoken here specifically about Black folks because we're talking about racism and a lot of the kids that I see, I look just like me.

So, that's what I'd offered to you.

- Thank you, your honor.

We really appreciate this introduction of understanding more about the judicial system and hearing it through your lens.

Now we'll turn to Mr. Lindsey.

We know that Mr. Lindsey always has an eye towards history.

So what reforms have made the most impact on rooting out racism and bias in our justice system?

And what areas outside of criminal justice like schools, are most in need of interventions?

- Thank you, Dr. Tyner.

I think if you listened both to Professor Sole and the Judge Smith, I think you'll see a lot of parallels and connections.

And when we talk about history of our country, we have to acknowledge that this country was built upon slavery.

So to this extent, the criminal justice system has been operating within the construct of a country that is coming to grips with its legacy around slavery.

We talk about warming more perfect union, but I would submit that we are still... We still have a lot of work to do.

And when you look at criminal justice, if you look at employment, pick the topic area, you see substantial disparities at play.

So, the criminal justice system can't be divorced from that.

Within that, where we have historically found some level of success, is where there has been a sustained commitment to face the issue of race, to be intentional with the data, and to be intentional in our efforts to change policies and practices which lead to detrimental outcomes.

And again, when we take a look at our history, what we find after reconstruction, we see some level of success.

Then we see tension, from sectors that don't want equality for all.

And you have a roll back after reconstruction.

We see a push forward, as it relates to the sixties, a significant passage of civil rights legislation, but then yet three, four years later, you see calls to the Supreme Court, Most notably in the Bakke case, of trying to roll back those efforts that were so hard fought within the sixties.

We saw a lot of work done under President Barrack Obama, and we saw a big pushback, on some of those respective efforts.

So when you ask that question of sustained reform and sort of the efforts, I would say we have bent that arc of moral justice, but it has been hard to sustain it because there are folks that wish to ensure that that progress is impeded.

And I think until we take a look at the history of our country and fully recognize that we still have to deal with race, this is what W.E.B Du Bois said it's the most pressing question of 20th century.

I submit it's the most pressing question of this century.

I really appreciated what Judge Smith said about different various points within the criminal justice system in tying that to the school system.

And again, that ties to what Professor Sole had said.

So, before taking this position, I was a Commissioner of Human Rights for the State of Minnesota under Governor Mark Dayton.

We had passed legislation concerning collateral consequences in the form of employment.

So sometimes it's referred to as Ban-the-Box.

So employers could not ask the question concerning criminal history before making a decision whether they would want to grant somebody an interview.

Professor Sole, started as comments by talking about marked and stamped.

Professor Devah Pager published a study on how employers take a look at criminal history information.

No one's surprised that a white applicant without a criminal justice incident in their past, is gonna do far better than a person of color, in this case in the study, an African-American person with a criminal record.

What was fascinating in the study is that a Black applicant without a criminal incident in their history does worse than a white applicant with.

So, when I was on the roll with my good friend Emily Baxter with We Are All Criminals and we'll be talking about Ban-the-Box, I would often share, coming from one of those suburbs of Chicago.

That I saw my friends doing the same dumb knuckle-headed things, that my cousins and friends on the South and West side of Chicago were doing.

But the amount of surveillance led to very different outcomes.

And that's in essence where you start to get to and feel bored.

5% of the United States population on the world stage, we only represent 5%, but we incarcerate more than 25%.

How is that tied to sort of the work within schools?

Again, as a commissioner of human rights, we looked at data over a five-year period, concerning suspension rates.

It probably will not surprise your audience, that when you take a look across the country, that Black students are three times more likely to be suspended for a full day than white students.

But people in Minnesota should know that when we published our report, we found that Black students were eight times more likely to be suspended for a day in Minnesota than white students.

And we took a look at Native American students.

Native American students nationwide are five times more likely.

In the state of Minnesota they're 10 times more likely, to be suspended.

And I tie this to Judge Smith's comment about kids being hungry, or things being a little unsettled at home and not potentially carrying over.

And that same research, the most common reason for why a child is suspended in school is 'cause they've been acting this disruptive, or what is referred to under the Department of Education with disrespect.

I wanna be really clear here.

If the student punched somebody, if they brought drugs into the school, the school is not gonna report that as disruptive, they're going to categorize that, pass the information onto the Department of Education in another category.

So when I say the most common is disruptive, it is nothing...

It's not tied to anything more severe than that kid mouthing off to the teacher, to the adult.

36 to 39% of our suspensions every year, fall into that category.

And we've got great disparity.

10 years ago, or 15 years ago, the Minneapolis Foundation found that 1 in 10 kindergartners, who identified as African-American, had been suspended for more than a day.

What is it that we're seeing in these children, or are we even seeing them as children?

That's when we start talking about this implicit bias and actually being able to see the individuals.

So, appreciate the richness, sort of the comments made by Professor Sole and Judge Smith in seeing those connections there.

- Thank you.

We also know that the humanities play an important role in your work.

So how do the humanities help change false racial narratives, promote genuine understanding, and create space for marginalized communities and individuals to tell their story?

- Well, first off we get excellent scholars like yourself Dr. Tyner or individuals like Judge Smith or scholars like Professor Sole.

To give us humanities in the sense of jurisprudence, civics, and history.

There a false sense I think in our country is that the law exists separate from social norms.

Societal norms really drive laws.

We sometimes fail to appreciate how much power we have as citizens to be able to change the way decisions are made, and the way in which laws are developed.

So if we're talking about a humanity, we talk about from the humanity set, being curious, being connected, being compassionate toward others.

These are all democratic, "large, deep," democratic principles, that really embodies sort of the best part of our democracy.

We've had good angels at times, which we've leaned into that.

Unfortunately, sometimes we've listened to the other angel on our shoulder, and we sought to exploit others.

And I think for us, the humanities reminds us of the best of humanity.

And if we can continue to have those conversations as Professor Sole says, if we continue to talk and work through these things, we can find and select and lead to a better society.

So we think that humanities is really grounded in that respect of work, really driving us to be the best.

The national endowment for humanities talks about democracy demands the wisdom of its citizens.

All citizens can be educated and make change in their society through humanity.

- So, now we're going to pause briefly, and I'm asking you to take a few seconds to answer this poll question.

And then submit any questions for our panelists.

And the poll question is, after hearing from the panelists, I have a deeper understanding about racism and bias in our criminal justice system.

I strongly agree.

I somewhat agree.

I disagree.

I'll read it again.

After hearing from the panelists, I have a deeper understanding about racism and bias in our criminal justice system.

I strongly agree.

I somewhat agree.

I disagree.

So if you just take just a brief moment to complete the poll question.

Please also share if you have any additional questions for the panelists, we would greatly appreciate that.

So, for our panelists we have a series of questions from the community.

They wanna learn more, so you sparked a lot of interest.

So I'm going to start with one particular question.

And this is specific to some of the pieces that the professor laid out for us.

The question is, what would prison abolition look like?

- So it looks like us actually attended to the needs of the community.

We drive past people every day who we know need something.

We all do it, you know.

It's like, how is it that we're missing out on an entire group of people?

It's like everybody is doing okay.

They thrive in and they're figuring out their stuff but it's like people that look like me, are scraping at the bottom.

And it's designed strategically.

For us to abolish the prison system, we gotta talk about those kids that Judge Stephen brought up.

You know, I like Stephens, you know I'll get arrested.

You know I'm a solitaire... (laughing) For me, it's like, think about that kid that's hungry?

Think about what the Panthers did?

They create a free breakfast before school programs.

We've gotta be creative like that.

Humanize My Hoodie, we created a hotline to help young folks so they don't get caught up in this, you know, this zone world and not being able to keep up with their work.

We got young Black kids answering the calls and building connections and establishing relationships.

That's what prison abolition looks like.

Once we can build a force field around us as Black folks and Indigenous folks, and really figure out how we really love and support People of Color.

If we can't get that force field tight, they going to keep snatching our kids.

They going to keep putting us in solitary confinement.

They going to keep throwing us away.

They going to keep killing us.

So we have to envision a world where we love and are protecting each other because if we don't have each other, they're gonna find a way to put our bodies in the JDC or in the workhouse or some other facility.

We can do restorative justice.

Like I said I got trained in 2006 in restorative justice, and I've done some of the most amazing circles in prisons, outside of prisons.

And it's like for us, we're helping people who come home from prison to say, "Hey, let's go ahead and look out for our people behind the wall."

When I left prison, I never just...

I never just left them behind.

I've always been a part of what I do.

So that's what abolition looks like.

Bringing people home, allowing them to have opportunity in jobs and being able to connect, and just really like figuring out how to disrupt that school-to-prison pipeline.

Judge Smith's even say it like, they always say we're disruptive in school, that's been my whole life.

From kindergarten, all the way through time I graduated.

I'm a disruptive person, but I'm like one of the most laid back kids in the school, but I'm disruptive.

I mean, I can have my days where I'm not on my game, but you think about how white supremacy disrupts my life.

How you labeling me disruptive.

I can't go a day without white supremacy impacting some part of my day, that's the disruption.

So it's like when we start having those conversations in a more intimate way, we can start abolishing those systems.

Think about the work of Mariame Kabe.

Her new book "We Do This 'Til We Free Us" is important for right now.

We got the answers, we got the solutions.

We just get caught up in our minds and think we don't.

Let's just love and protect each other man, for real simple.

It's a simple solution.

If you care about the people you have no connection with, the people coming home from prison, people leaving bootcamp, people on CIP right now.

Let's love them in a way where they can actually grow.

People did that for me.

Mack Moody did it for me, Sam Grant did...

So many people that invested in me, that it's like I can be who I need to be now.

That's how we abolish the system.

You know what I'm saying?

It's like, I correspond with hundreds of people across the country who are in prison.

And when people come home, I give them a blueprint.

I say, "Hey, this is what I see can work for you to be able to be successful.

Think about it like this."

And like I said, I'm grateful to be able to live long enough to be able to enjoy some of this life because it hurts me that if I get pulled over by law enforcement, they got me in my background and the still hold me accountable for stuff in my teens and twenties, that's foul.

We abolished these things so that we can actually have freedom.

I wanna have actual freedom in this lifetime, not be shackled to the state of Minnesota.

That's how we actually abolish the system.

- I think we start where you said that the restorative justice, thinking about the solutions that we wanna see.

So if we take a look at data, we'd find that about a third of the individuals within the present system have some type of mental health diagnosis or need, why would we serve them within prison?

We find that we have legalized various use of controlled substances, and we actually have profit making businesses.

So why are those in the system?

We have individuals again as my grandfather might say, do dumb knuckle-headed things.

Why are they in the system?

Why aren't we connecting them to a mentor or getting them into a program?

Are we mad at them or we scared?

And if we're just mad at them because they did something dumb, let's figure out a different way in which to do it.

And by the way, this is a really expensive system.

It's three times more costly than it costs to send somebody to college.

So it's really expensive.

So we should really think through it.

- I think too, if I'm piggyback a bit on what Dr.

Sole was saying.

Because I hear at its core, fundamentally, that if we address the inequities that we see in this country and that have particularly been laid bare during this pandemic, and in the wake of George Floyd's killing.

If we were to commit to ensuring that all of the marginalized communities that are in this country have a quality of life that respects their humanity, then there is no need for folks.

I think as Dr.

Sole is saying to fall outside of the protective barrier that we can establish.

I mean, if you care for the people that have not shared in the riches and wealth of this country, enough such that you reach out to help lift them up.

You know, when I forget who the quote is attributable but you know, they.. We've all heard it, the idea that "when we do better, we all do better."

Something along those lines.

I think that's a reality.

And I think now, as I have said to folks I'm cautiously optimistic that we will actually begin to do the real work, to help lift up all of the other folks that have not been able to benefit from the richness that is offered in this country.

- I have a follow-up question.

You all mentioned restorative justice.

Could someone give a brief definition of what does restorative justice mean?

What does it look like?

- Absolutely.

So, this is the best way I can put it.

And this is something I learned from Rihanna Anthony, who's an amazing abolitionists.

The criminal justice system says you harm me, we go through the court system where the best lawyer ends up winning in that situation.

That's the criminal justice system.

Restorative justice says you harm me, we listen to what the Native Americans gave us which is holding space, holding the talking piece and figuring out what, caused the harm?

And how do we like love the person who was actually survive in the situation.

So it's a great depth of love for the survivor who went through the tragic, you know, incident, but we figure out a way to get good.

We figure it out, you harmed me, how do we make this right?

Transformative justice says, you harm me, we go through a process and really go deep enough, to where, we can be better than we've ever been.

So restorative justice is amazing.

Like I said, I've been able to be in Philadelphia in prisons doing a restorative justice circles or having conversations and building.

And it's a way to actually heal.

The criminal justice system the way it's structured there's no healing in that.

The survivor isn't healed, the person who went to prison isn't healed, no healing?

Restorative justice allows healing, and that's what most of us need.

Like I needed college, I needed a hug.

I need a cage.

- I think sometimes it's so much within the criminal justice system the thought about what is the actual sentence?

We all have come across stories in which the individual who did harm to a family member, makes a connection to that family.

And through conversation and dialogue, they're able to get to an area of forgiveness.

We need to figure out more as a society how we repair the harm that we have caused, and when people have failed, how to create space for them to make amends for that, besides just being punitive and just throwing them into a cage, like Professor Sole has said.

- I think too, if we can do that it would be a beautiful thing.

But I also think that for the victims of offenses and I think that Sole had alluded to this as well.

Part of that restorative justice process is not only the person that has done the act being able to come to terms with that in forgiving themselves and being remorseful for that behavior, but also the person on the receiving end of that behavior, if we are able to help them heal as well so that restorative justice then means you have the actor and the recipient, both at a place where they are able to forgive each other.

That in my estimation is a beautiful thing.

Dr.

Sole obviously has much more experience than I do in that realm but I'd like to share a story really quickly here.

It's something I heard just...

It was a couple of weeks ago, and I'm listening to a segment on the radio.

And as a matter of fact I think it was one of the StoryCorps segments.

And I was just as I'm often moved by the stories, but this would just struck me in such a compelling way.

And it was a story about a young man as a teenager who had shot and killed this gentleman's son.

They were now, many years later, they were in this StoryCorps, talking about this episode, and how the father had forgiven that young boy that had committed this crime, and also have that young boy had gone through his process of healing and forgiving himself, and then being in a position to accept the forgiveness of this father.

But what really blew me away was there was a second part to the story, the following...

I think it was the following week.

In a separate StoryCorps story, where the sister is now having this conversation as well.

And I just... And now they are actually very close.

And I just thought it was amazing to see this restoration for both the victim and the offender to come to fruition like this.

I know it was beautiful.

I mean, we could always do that, it'd be great.

You know.

- So we're all getting the same- - Multiple solutions.. - Of what the possibilities can be.

I'm sorry, Mr. Lindsay.

- Oh, no, I, I would just concurring with you.

I think we're marginalized people.

It's not just simply throwing away the key and locking somebody up.

There are a wealth of things before we can do it.

- So my next question will lead us in that direction of what happens after bias?

Are there other things to consider?

So, much of the pain, injury, death, and destruction dodging the people with Black and Brown bodies today, physically, mentally and professionally is intentional and premeditated?

Vicious and sometimes perpetuated by white bodies.

As Dr. King said, "The law cannot make a man love me, but it can stop him from lynching me."

And I think that's pretty important.

So how can the law protect Black people from explicit acts of racial violence and discrimination, even as it grapples with its own inherent racism?

- So this is a challenging question because we're talking about on the state, you know.

A hundred years ago, when they lynched three gentlemen, Elias, Jackson, and McGhie, and then the individuals who participated in the lynching took a photograph, and they made a postcard of it.

That photograph was prominently displayed on a newspaper, and it circulated the entire country, and no criminal prosecutions for the murder of three gentlemen came forward.

So, the weight of this question so significant at this particular point in time.

So, some of the things that I really appreciated in Jason and others, talked about ensuring that there is political pressure brought to bear, on individuals who do prosecution of cases, the county prosecutor.

More than 90% of the county prosecutors in the entire country identify as white males.

That doesn't necessarily mean they won't prosecute those cases, but as they feel no pressure from the Black community to prosecute those cases, they might not do so as zealously as they should.

So Jason and others bringing to bear a conversation that all lives matter, particularly Black lives matter, that was really key.

And we saw that here in local races for, not only the county prosecutor, but also for the sheriff.

We also had to take an eye toward jury selection.

I think eyes were very wide open concerning it.

I know the case is still pending, so I won't go too far into it but I think who gets onto the jury, who is excused by the judge from peremptory challenge or through cause, that's another area in which we need to pay attention to and focus on.

There is a Supreme Court case called Bateson, several decades ago.

Probably need to rush that off and have another examination on that issue.

And then I think it's a resource question.

How adequate are the resources?

I don't necessarily agree that it's better return, but I will say it's more resource done, than justice proceeding.

The most awkward poppet wins.

- Yeah.

I just wanna say like the whole system is guilty.

But like the whole thing, the cops, the course, the correct... All of that stuff, man.

I've never walked into a courtroom, where I felt like I would get justice.

That process is not the right process.

And when you thinking about the law, we need to start teaching Black babies their laws at like five and six years old.

You saw what happened to that nine year old baby?

She was saying I'm a kid.

I want like, what's going on... We need to teach them their rights at a young age.

And that won't even necessarily change you know, their outcome.

My baby's going to be driving in a few years.

I can't live with having a cop pulling my babies over.

That hurts my heart.

We need to get these laws all the way right to where police can be held accountable?

White supremacists can be held accountable.

Some of them got flags in front of their homes and all kinds of stuff, and there's no accountability.

So, you know, it's like the law... You've got to think back to dress, God, come on.

They're slaughtering us out here under the 13th Amendment.

They use the law in the way that persecutes us all of the time.

I can't even stand my own ground?

Come on, how does stand your ground work for Black folks?

It hasn't.

Think about Marissa Alexander?

We can go on and on about how Black women have defended themselves, and have been thrown in cages.

You could just go to Shakopee and see it?

All over the country.

So I mean, the law works for people who are white and the people who have money.

That's the biggest issue with all of this.

- So, I think that the law is what it is.

I think it's power comes with its enforcement, and the enforcement comes from those that have the responsibility to enforce it.

I do think that as a public servant and the public servants that are a part of this criminal justice system that we should be held accountable for the decisions that are being made.

And I think that comes through public awareness as (clearing throat) Mr. Lindsey had pointed out, and the work that Dr.

Sole has been engaged in, in helping the community to understand their rights and to demand more of our public servants.

The law in some respects is a... Those are words on a paper, but the enforcement comes when the public servants that are charged with enforcing the laws, understand that they are to be held accountable if they don't fulfill their public duty.

- I think that's a lot of the challenge, right?

It's not static, things change over time.

We didn't always have an automatic right to counsel, the citizen, that changed.

The issue concerning bail.

That was really brought to light by people doing research and just saying that detrimentally impacts People of Color.

So if I can't make bail, I lose my job because I can't keep in contact with them.

I can't adequately prepare my case with my attorney.

I'm much more likely to accept the plea agreement.

I'm much more likely to be convicted.

So why, you know, do we necessarily need to have bail in every case?

So, this are our reform efforts some of them by the court, some of them by the legislature, but all are really pushed forward though, by we as citizens, paying attention to the outcome, and then holding people accountable for more justice.

- So, as you can see, this is a story call to action.

And I would like to thank each of our panelists for joining us tonight and sharing their wisdom.

I'd like to thank the Otto Bremer Foundation and HealthPartners for funding Racism Unveiled and making the work possible.

Also the Minnesota Association of Black Lawyers, Mabl, for their guidance and expertise.

As a part of the Racism Unveiled initiative, as we approach the trial the former Minneapolis police officer, Derek Chauvin, first TPT just launched a new weekly digital series called Trial and Tribulation, focused on racism and justice in Minnesota, with the Chauvin trial is a backdrop.

In honor of the one-year anniversary of the killing of George Floyd, there'll be multiple hours of on-air programming during the week of the anniversary, including the premiere of the TPT Commission documentary, Say His Name: Slavery by Another Name and Jim Crow of The North.

Our next event will be Thursday, June 24th.

If you like to be informed of future Racism Unveiled events, or if you have ideas to share for programming, please contact Cassandra Fenelon, Senior Strategic Partnerships Manager, and that's at C F E N E L O N@tpt.org.

Once again, we thank you for joining us tonight.

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