♪ ♪ ♪ >> Joining us is the Reverend Dr. Cassandra Gould.

Discusses the evolution of women leaders in the African Methodist Episcopal church, next, on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

♪ ♪ >> We're pleased to welcome to "The Chavis Chronicles" the Reverend Dr. Cassandra Gould.

You are the executive director of Faith Voices of Missouri.

>> Yes.

>> So, tell us about your ministry.

I know you're originally from Alabama but brought up in Missouri.

>> I am.

Absolutely.

Yes, I am an Alabama girl from a little town, Demopolis, Alabama, 47 miles west of Selma.

>> Right in the heart of the Black Belt.

>> Right in the heart of the Black Belt.

Family moved to St. Louis when I was under 10 years old.

>> Great.

Well, St. Louis is a great city.

We've heard so much about your ministry.

Tell us about Faith Voices.

>> Yeah.

Missouri Faith Voices is a part of the Faith in Action national network.

Used to be PICO.

Most people still know us by that name.

I've been the executive director for about 6 1/2 years.

I got one week left on the clock, and then I'll be moving over to the national staff of Faith in Action.

We're 11 years old this year and have really been able to do some incredible work.

Last midterm year, 2018, we really led the organizing on the ground that resulted in the historical election of Wesley Bell.

Most people would know him as the Ferguson prosecutor, but St. Louis County has 91 municipalities.

And we were able to flip a seat.

Both of them were Dems.

We're nonpartisan but were able to flip that seat by engaging voters.

>> St. Louis County, 91 different municipalities in one county.

>> Ninety-one different municipalities.

So, you have St. Louis City, and then you have St. Louis County that's literally made up of 91 municipalities.

>> So, how do you get out the vote in all of these places?

>> It really takes a strategy.

It takes literally knocking on doors, and we really focus on what people call "low-propensity voters," the people that politicians aren't even talking to, those that are least likely to vote.

And I would dare to say over the last eight years, the most popular one of those municipalities is a little place called Ferguson, that people know after the murder of Mike Brown.

>> Speaking of Mike Brown, I know his mother and father.

Tell me.

What is the aftermath of the Brown situation, the Brown case?

Years later now -- has there been progress in Ferguson?

>> I think it depends on where you are standing.

Certainly, justice would look like Mike Brown still being alive, and we know we don't get to have him back.

But there are things, like the 27-year incumbent, the St. Louis County prosecutor, that was replaced in 2018 because of organizing that began in the streets of Ferguson.

There is an AME pastor, an AME clergyperson, that's now the mayor of Ferguson, Reverend Ella Jones.

She was the first woman that I had that was my pastor.

>> For our listening audience, AME is... >> African Methodist Episcopal Church, yes, yes.

>> Okay.

>> She is an ordained clergy in the African Methodist Episcopal Church.

She's now the mayor of that city.

There has been, you know, some focus on some rebuilding.

Sadly, the footage that people saw from that street, West Florissant, which is a major thoroughfare in the St. Louis County area, a lot of it looks like it looked seven years ago.

And so, we're hoping, particularly with ARPA funds coming into all of the states, that there will be more intentional investment in that community and in all of our communities in Missouri.

>> Your work with Faith Voices, is it intergenerational?

Is there a particular focus?

>> So, we are -- Faith Voices, right?

So, our organizing model is based on organizing congregations, but we also organize members of the community.

Our role has been to look for those who are most experienced with the issues of the day.

Those -- when we started organizing in Ferguson, in the aftermath of the Mike Brown murder, we went to knock on the doors of, you know, the girls and boys in the 'hood who were impacted by everyday encounters with law enforcement, who were impacted by schools, who were losing their accreditation, those people who were struggling every day that people don't often talk to.

They don't think that their voice matters.

And so, our work across the state of Missouri has been with those that in the church we would call "the least of these," those who are most impacted and the least invited to have their voices shared with people.

We've worked on issues like Medicaid expansion.

It took us ten years to get it passed in Missouri, but, finally, in the midst of a pandemic, we were able to pass it with a legislative body that defunded it.

But it is on the books, and people are now able to enroll.

>> So, there's progress being made in Ferguson.

>> There is some progress being made, yes.

>> And in terms of the elected officials, there's much more diversity now.

>> There is, right?

There are now -- Ferguson was a black city with white administration, right?

The police force was -- 53 police officers, and I want to say less than, it was 3 or 2 of them that were black, right?

That doesn't work.

That doesn't work at all.

And so, I cannot give you statistics about the police force, but a black police chief, a black mayor, and a black prosecutor over those 91 municipalities, more black representation in city council, and what we're really working on is the economic piece that needs to happen, not just in Ferguson but in all of the Fergusons across Missouri and this country.

>> Tell us about your work.

You say you're focusing on economic development, economic opportunity, trying to get people out of poverty.

We're also in midst a pandemic... >> We're in the midst of a pandemic, yeah.

>> ...which continues.

How has the pandemic impacted the ability to make progress in economic development?

>> Yeah.

I think the pandemic has really impacted and in some ways initially provided some barriers even to community organizing across the country.

You know, the census was really important to us in 2020, and we had to stop knocking on doors.

Started inviting people into Zoom rooms.

There's the digital divide.

The COVID pandemic has shown us in this last two years -- most of us already knew that there was a divide.

There was a racial wealth gap.

We knew that, but it has really shown it to the rest of the world.

But in this moment, we have an unprecedented amount of money flowing into states.

So, organizations, like Missouri Faith Voices, like the Live Free Network, with Pastor Michael McBride and others, are also working to ensure that those dollars, those American Rescue Plan dollars, actually don't just go to, you know, the largest grassroots orgs or the largest nonprofits but actually go to people who are on the ground, the boots on the ground, and the people in communities so that we can do the kind of business development, the kind of things that actually anchor communities and have our communities reinvested in.

Most of our communities have been disinvested, right?

People divested from our communities, and we're really trying to ensure that those who need those dollars, not just as a stimulus check -- right?

-- but that they can actually change the dynamic of their families, all while still trying to make sure that wages are increased.

You know, we were able to pass an increase in minimum wage over the last three years, but it's not enough.

People need money not just to be able to survive bad times but so their families have an opportunity to thrive.

>> The AME Church has had a long, storied history providing not only bishops but clergy like yourself on the front line of the movement for social justice.

>> Yes.

>> How do you see things now in the state of Missouri, looking forward?

>> You know, looking forward, I think across the board, my work with Faith in Action is really focused on equipping black faith leaders, black people of faith with the tools that they need to really work at the intersection of faith and justice.

I see that there is still a lot of opportunity.

You know, we'd just come out of this King Day observation, and there are so many people they want to quote him -- right?

-- but not really doing the work, and it's risky business.

There's a great opportunity for faith leaders across the spectrum of denominations and nondenominations and people who might consider themselves people with no faith to really still get involved.

But particularly as faith leaders, in one of Dr. King's meetings in a speech he gave to black clergy, he said that they had been the taillight.

And I think we're still looking for the church at large to be the headlights.

>> And then women in the clergy -- the AME Church was one of the first major denominations to start ordaining women.

>> Yes.

>> Are there opportunities, are there career opportunities in the AME Church and the church at large?

>> I think the church has come a long way, and we have a long way to go.

This year, when it comes to black Methodists, the other black Methodists still only have one woman that's a bishop.

We currently have two that are seated, two retired, one deceased.

So, we had five women that were bishops.

This last year was another historic year.

We were able to elect now-Bishop Francine Brookins, who hails out of L.A. She is now a bishop of the church but still so much more.

When I look at the spectrum of women in ministry across the board in black churches, we're still breaking ceilings.

There have been some historic elections and installations of women in some pulpits that had not had women before.

And there's still a lot of work for denominations to do.

Women still comprise most of the people in the pews.

And so, we still lack the spaces that we need to be in leadership.

And it's time.

>> Voter suppression, voting rights -- what is happening in Missouri on these issues?

>> Yeah.

You know, I can't -- sitting here in D.C., having sat in the gallery when even Democrats voted against an opportunity to ensure that voters' rights were protected.

It is being mimicked in Missouri.

Last year, those 440 proposed voter-restriction laws -- Missouri was third in the number that were proposed.

There were approximately 34 that proposed.

It was good organizing and divine intervention that meant that none of those laws actually got passed.

But the Republicans across the state -- and Missouri's not excluded.

Our session has been in just a couple of weeks.

They've already proposed additional restrictive laws.

You know, they indicated, listening to the Senate last night -- their arrogance -- they indicated that "Oh, these laws are advancing the rights of voters."

Missouri is a state that does not have early voting.

We don't have real absentee balloting.

We don't have, you know, these drop boxes in communities and etcetera.

And so, we have an absolute long way to go before we have unencumbered voting.

Missouri Faith Voices, Faith in Action has really led the way in trying to ensure that those who are -- that systems would want to keep from voting are able to vote.

I really inherited this mantle around voting rights and the issue I've been working on for a long time.

My mother was on that bridge in Selma, 47 miles away from our hometown, you know.

>> Wait.

Let's go back there.

In 1965.

>> In 1965.

>> On Bloody Sunday.

>> On Bloody Sunday.

As a kid, hearing those stories, I said, "Mama, did you march with Dr.

King?"

And she said, "I was there before Dr. King got there."

She left this Earth, sadly, about 11 years ago with a scar on her thigh that she sustained in Selma on Bloody Sunday.

And so, that's an issue.

>> So, when you talk about voting rights, your family has personal investment.

>> Personal investment.

I have been one of the 25 hunger strikers that just came off of a 13-day hunger strike this week.

>> Around voting rights.

>> Around voting rights.

So, it's very personal to me, something that I did not understand the value of those lessons as a young person, when my mother would talk about it.

I'm like, "But I get to vote, right?"

And then, you know, I started to see that we really are fighting the same fight that at this point some of our ancestors fought, including our beloved John Lewis fought, 57 years ago now.

>> Well, that's quite a legacy.

And it seems to me that your mother would be very proud to see her daughter one of the leading pastors in the AME Church, and what she suffered on that Sunday crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama, has not been in vain.

Even though the country's still debating voting rights, the fact that we did get that bill in 1965, after Selma.

The Supreme Court kind of took some of the, you know, weight out of the bill.

>> Yes.

>> And we have new bills now.

And even though the Senate failed, it's my understanding that voting rights activists, voting rights organizations, we're not giving up.

>> We're not giving up.

You know, I shared with someone this morning on the way over here that the country has failed us continuously, but that's the story of black people in America.

The country's always failed us.

And we're still here.

We're still working.

We saw in the midst of the pandemic, in 2020, this unprecedented number of people voting.

It wasn't because of politicians.

It was because organizing still works.

It was because of boots on the ground and people knocking on the doors saying that you will not leave us out.

We will still make sure our voices are heard.

So, we'll keep fighting.

>> So, you -- I detect a sense of optimism.

>> Optimism in the people, in our ability, and optimism particularly black people, other people of color, but especially black people.

We have a history of being left out.

And even with all of that, we still manage to still make it.

It's not easy.

It's frustrating, very frustrating.

Leaving the gallery of the Senate on a historic but sad night, watching my colleague, Dr. Raphael Warnock, in his eloquent and passionate speech.

He said, "America, you can be January 5th or January the 6th."

America chose January the 6th, but black people will still choose January the 5th, when we were able to see a glimmer of hope when a black preacher came to the Senate.

First black preacher to come to the Senate was an AME pastor.

And we need more.

No black women in the Senate right now, but we will still work for change.

>> Across the United States, what's your forecast?

Do you think that we are gonna be able to make more progress, or do you see some challenges?

>> You know, the realistic answer to that is while we will be working hard -- the last at least two election cycles, Faith in Action has engaged more voters than any other grassroots org in this country -- we'll still be doing that in 2022.

I do believe that voters are going to not necessarily be apathetic, but they will be concerned.

They'll be concerned about promises that were made, that the administration certainly has been trying to get passed.

They'll be concerned about the kind of people that represent them.

And so, my prayer is, is that it won't turn to apathy but that that concern will mean that we will raise up a new generation of men and women to be able to take some of those seats in not just the Senate and Congress but even in our state houses, in our city councils.

We really need to develop a bigger bench of people who are impacted by these issues so that when they are able to get on the floor of the Senate, able to get on the floor of city council that they are still connected enough to where they come from that they are not having people still, you know, get crumbs, that they're not really selling their souls for the sake of a party.

>> Your family, do they support your ministry?

>> Absolutely.

My family -- I have two amazing children.

My son has actually done some organizing work.

They are 100% always with me.

Those who follow my ministry -- not pastoring in a physical building as I'm in relocation now to the D.C. area, but my virtual ministry, Beyond the Walls, which was my dissertation -- they know it to be a ministry of liberation.

So, those that follow me understand that this is the work of Jesus Christ, as a Christian pastor, that we believe in a God that was a God of justice.

And there is -- you can't do ministry and not do justice.

It's just really antithetical.

>> The last question I'm gonna ask you is about ecumenical.

You're in the AME Church.

>> Yes.

>> How are you working with other denominations to achieve equal justice for all people?

>> Yeah, you know, I don't get to speak on behalf of the AME Church, but in my own lane, in my own role, that's where my work with Faith in Action comes in.

Faith in Action, like Missouri Faith Voices, is multifaith.

So, we work literally just across the board.

My board at Missouri Faith Voices, our congregations, not just Christian congregations but also synagogues, mosques, and a few other strands of faith in between.

The Faith in Action national network represents, like, every form of faith that you can imagine, from indigenous people, Hindu, you know, Sikhs.

It's across the board.

We believe not just that people of faith have one strand of thought but that all of our sacred texts have something to say about when people are oppressed, that all of our sacred texts have something to say about what faith looks like in public and about the work of justice.

And so, we cross all of those lines.

We work together because we'll go further together.

And so, we are doing that work, and that is my container.

Faith in Action is as much my spiritual home as it is my political home.

>> Today, what gives you your greatest hope for the future?

>> My greatest hope -- you know, again, as we continue to think about Dr. King, even throughout this month and in light of what just didn't happen on the floor of the Senate, I'm reminded of being in Birmingham -- my uncle was a pastor there -- and on a recent trip, last three or four years, and on the coffee table my aunt had a book, "The Churches of the Movement."

And I had been in so many churches in Birmingham, spending half of my summer there until I was 18.

And looking through that book -- "It's Reverend so-and-so's church here.

It's this church there."

>> 16th Street Baptist Church.

>> Well, 16th Street Baptist Church, for sure.

6th Street Baptist Church, right?

But I was looking through that book.

There were churches that I didn't see, and I'm thinking, "Oh, well, Uncle Clyde, he preached over here, and he preached over there, and he was invited over here."

And I realized that everybody won't go, but for those of us who are willing to literally carry this mantle of the prophetic and to do justice work, that as long as those who are called to do it, do it, if we respond to the call for such a time as this, we'll be okay.

It won't be easy, right?

And our tenacity, our resilience, and resistance doesn't really compensate for those who refuse to pick up the mantle, but we'll be okay.

We'll get to where God has called us to be, because it never was the crowd.

It was just the faithful few who were willing -- and it's risky work.

So, I also kind of understand why those are like, "I can't do it."

I've had to move out of the parsonage in the middle of the night because of threats and those kinds of things.

So, I understand the risk involved.

But I believe that the risk is worth it.

It's worth to eventually see liberation for my children's children and for their children.

So, with every breath in my body, I'll keep working until all of God's children have freedom.

>> The Reverend Dr. Cassandra Gould, thank you so much.

>> Thank you, Dr. Chavis, and thank you for this program that sheds light on so many issues in this country.

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by... Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

American Petroleum Institute -- through the core elements of API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry in the U.S. and around the world.

You can learn more at api.org/apiEnergyExcellence.

Over the next 10 years, Comcast is committing $1 billion to reach 50 million low-income Americans with the tools and resources they need to be ready for anything.

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