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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hey, everyone.

Steve Adubato.

We are honored to be joined by a powerful voice, an important voice in the theological religious community, particularly for those of us who are Catholic.

He is Reverend James Martin, a Jesuit priest and Editor at Large at America Media and author of this very powerful book, "Work in Progress."

Get this subtitle.

"Confessions of a Busboy, Dishwasher, Caddy, Usher, Factory Worker, Bank Teller, Corporate Tool, and Priest."

Father, good to see you.

- Thank you.

Great to be with you.

- First of all, explain this title, please.

- So, the book is a story of how I found work in a variety of crazy summer jobs, including all the ones that you mentioned.

And in addition, paperboy and lawnmower.

And then also how I found God later in my life as a Jesuit priest.

So, I would say it's a lighthearted spiritual memoir, as I said, mostly focusing on some funny stories with some summer jobs that I think people can relate to in life, lessons learned, and then how I found my way into the Jesuits and into the priesthood.

- Do this for us, I was actually talking to one of our producers yesterday, Shannon Daly, who actually produced this segment and was talking to you, and we were having this conversation about Catholicism and the importance of distinguishing between, and if there is something to distinguish, between being a Jesuit and being a Roman Catholic, which I am.

Is there a difference?

- There's no difference.

The Jesuits are a Catholic religious order, like the Franciscans, the Benedictines, the Dominicans, the Trappists.

We are priests and brothers who take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience, and we live in community.

So, we're Catholic priests and brothers, basically.

I think people in the United States would know the Jesuit's best for their schools, Fordham, Boston College, Georgetown, as well as their high schools, St.

Peter's Prep, Fordham Prep, Loyola, Regis, all those.

So yeah, we are Catholic priests and brothers.

- But along those lines, there is a particular academic orientation.

There is a religious orientation about being a Jesuit.

And I'm not going to say it's unique, but it's special and it's important.

What are the keys to being a Jesuit priest?

- Well, St.

Ignatius of Loyola, our founder, had a spirituality that could be reasonably summarized as finding God in all things.

That's our spirituality.

So, it means that God is found not just within the walls of a church or when you're praying or reading the Bible, but all sorts of things.

When you're with your spouse or when you're enjoying music or nature and relationships or friendships or work.

So, finding God in all things.

And then as I said, over time, particularly in the United States, we've developed a tradition of education that wasn't there at the very, very beginning.

But Jesuits were, at the time of St.

Ignatius, very well educated, and the church asked them to open schools.

And we've done that for the last 450-500 years.

- Reverend, in the book, you talk about your experiences as a dishwasher, as a caddy, as an usher, as a factory worker.

And what struck me about the book is the way you described what it was like to try to understand how people are treated at that rung of, I don't want to say society, but of the economic and job-related universe.

And they were treated like crap.

They were just invisible.

They were not seen.

They were not respected.

How did those experiences, because then you go to GE, you become, in your words, not mine, a corporate tool.

I believe you worked in HR at the time and other areas of corporate America.

What the heck does that have to do, all those experiences, with A, your view of, it's a complicated question, capitalism, which is unregulated and unrestrained, and then, yeah, I'm going to become a priest?

- Well, those jobs taught me a lot.

I mean, as I said, the book is pretty lighthearted, but in some places I was treated like crap.

- Is it lighthearted, Father?

Is it lighthearted?

- Yeah, it is lighthearted.

I mean, the book is lighthearted with some serious lessons.

And the life lessons that I learned when I was a busboy, a dishwasher, a caddy, was not to treat people cruelly.

I mean, I was sometimes mistreated as people are on the bottom rung of the job ladder.

But I also learned lessons like work hard, show up on time, apologize when you need to.

In terms of question A and capitalism, I went to the Wharton School.

I worked in finance and accounting before I went into HR.

And one of the things I learned just through my time at GE was that the bottom line is not the only measure of success, right?

Because if you sort of sacrifice everything to the bottom line, your life gets out of whack.

Now, business is a real vocation for a lot of people, but it just wasn't for me.

That's what I discovered when I was at GE.

As far as becoming a priest, all these life lessons and all these life experiences led up to that.

I talk about finding God in the book early on as a boy.

I didn't really quite understand what was happening to me.

But eventually, I realized that I just wasn't in the right place and that the Jesuits and the priesthoods seemed to offer something that was a little more suited to what I wanted to do in life.

So, it's a bit of a vocation story as well.

But I would say it's lighthearted with some serious lessons.

- But at the same time, Reverend, when you talk about as a kid, unless I have this wrong and you will correct me, you didn't think much about other people.

You said you were very concerned about "being liked."

And being liked, I'll use the word curse, it was a problem for me, the need and desire, intense need, intense desire, to be liked.

And frankly, very concerned about how you were seen by others and not focused too much on the experience of others.

Am I overstating that, Father?

- I would say that's fairly accurate.

I would say I wasn't a mean person in any way.

- Not mean at all.

- Yeah, but I think like a lot of teenagers, I was intent on getting people to think I was cool or popular or part of the in crowd.

And eventually that became a handicap.

That became something that sort of paralyzed me because if you're going to sort of rely on what other people think of you, you're going to be incapable of being who you are, right?

And incapable of doing things that might go against the grain of what the sort of crowd is doing.

So, I had to really let go of that, and I really let go of it when I entered the Jesuits.

My friends, who I'm still friends with, thought I was nuts and so did my family- - How old, I'm sorry for interrupting, Father, how old were you?

Because you were in a corporate position at the time.

How old were you when you made the decision and then ultimately became a priest?

- I started to think about it when I was 25, roughly.

I'd worked at GE for about three or four years.

And then I entered the Jesuits when I was 27 in 1988.

I just left it all behind and never looked back.

- Do you think that you were meant to be a religious leader, to be a priest?

- Looking back, I would say that seemed to be God's plan.

We're all given freedom, of course.

I certainly didn't know that at the time.

I wasn't super religious growing up.

My family was Catholic, but not super pious or super religious.

And I went to First Communion and was confirmed and all that, but I went to church mainly out of a sense of obligation.

But it was really, yeah, it was later on in life that I started to understand the way that God initiates a relationship with you, right?

And that the things that were happening within me and around me were signs of God's presence and kind of invitations to think about what I was really meant to do.

And the question that I think every young person should be asked is what would you do if you could do anything you wanted to do, right?

And that's something that I never asked myself.

And when I asked myself that, or rather, when someone asked me that, the answer was be a Jesuit priest.

And that's what I did.

- And you didn't care as much what anyone thought of that or whether they liked you or not because of it.

- That's a great question.

By that time, I was so miserable in the corporate world that it was sort of an escape.

And so I always say it was a kind of a push and a pull.

There was a push out of the corporate world, which again, it's a vocation for a lot of people, but not for me.

And a pull into the Jesuits, which just seemed very kind of romantic, right?

Exciting and romantic and giving your life over to God and working with the poor and praying.

And it just seemed great.

And I think it was the best decision I ever made.

- You know, it's interesting.

You call it romantic.

You know one of my favorite people in the world, well, my son Steven.

- Great guy.

- Who is a terrific young man.

And who was raised Greek Orthodox.

My ex-wife comes from a very traditional Greek Orthodox background.

And while at Fordham, our son Steven converted to Catholicism as a sophomore.

I remember being there at the ceremony.

And I always wondered, because I grew up Catholic, but did what I was supposed to do.

There was nothing uniquely religious or spiritual about me or our family.

My point is this.

It became clear to me early on when he was 19, 20 years old that he had a calling.

And it wasn't just to confer to Catholicism because then he went on, as you know, and studied his master's in theology, religion, and teaches in the field and lives a very, he is not a priest, he's not a brother, but he lives a very spiritual life.

That was in him.

So, it's a long, long-winded way of getting to this.

It's not just about my son.

I often wonder about this.

He didn't get it from me, didn't get it from others, his mother, he got it from himself.

Do you believe that it is in deep inside those who choose a religious life?

That it's God's plan?

Yes, we have choice, but not that much?

- I would say it's God's plan.

You said it didn't come from you, it didn't come from your wife.

I would say it didn't even come from him- - No, I want to clarify, it's my ex-wife, which by the way, there's a whole nother issue, because my wife and I who now are married, we have three children, one of whom, Fordham graduate, the whole bit, we couldn't get married in the Catholic church because I was divorced.

That's another story, and I won't put that on Father Martin, but go ahead, Father.

- No, I was going to say that it may not have come from his parents and it didn't come from him, it came from God.

I think deep within us is this call.

Everyone has a vocation, right?

We have a vocation to become the person we're meant to be.

We have a vocation to different careers and married life or single life.

We all have different vocations that God sort of plans within us.

And that our life's task is to discern that and to sort of, in a sense, let that be revealed to us.

And for some people it takes a little longer.

For some people, it's a little earlier.

To see more Think Tank with Steve Adubato programs visit us online at steveadubato.org.

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- Shift gears dramatically.

So, the Pope right now.

Our Pope has not been shy.

When I say our Pope, the Pope of the Catholic Church.

Pope Leo not shy about calling out what he believes needs to be called out.

And sometimes people will say, "Well, what's the Pope doing involved in politics?"

And then in response, President Trump called Pope Leo "weak on crime."

So, now there's a thing between the President and the Pope.

What's your view on what the Pope, the church, what Catholic leaders should and should not be engaging in publicly?

And is that politics or is that something much deeper and different?

- It is something deeper and different.

It's the gospel.

What the Pope does is preach the gospel.

He preaches peace.

He talks about caring for the poor, right?

Caring for the sick, working with the marginalized, working with the stranger.

This is all part of the gospel.

If it has political ramifications or implications I think he feels, so be it.

And this is the case with all popes.

So, basically, if he sees something that is against gospel teaching, if it's someone who's not caring for the poor or someone who's not caring for the stranger or mistreating migrants or refugees, or war and peace, these are gospel issues.

Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers."

So, the Pope is not being overtly political.

And you'll notice that he only mentions politicians' names like President Trump's name only when he's asked, right?

Directly.

Otherwise, he is speaking in generalities and these generalities are the gospel.

So, that's what he's doing.

- But he could also turn around and say, regardless, respectfully, Father Martin, regardless of what he's asked, "I don't want to engage in talking about politicians or politics.

That is not my responsibility."

But you seem to be saying that is his responsibility.

- It's his responsibility to preach the gospel in season and out, right?

And he's also a direct person.

And if someone asks him, "What do you think about X, Y, Z?"

he'll ask.

But he generally doesn't volunteer that politically.

When you hear him speaking about things that seem political, you can almost always, well, you can always see that these are gospel values, right?

Peace, life, kindness, compassion.

These are gospel values.

And I think people see them as political, but he's speaking as a religious leader, as a Catholic leader.

- Okay, let's stay on the gospel.

- Sure.

- At least as I interpret it as a non-theologian, but someone who's struggled and tried to make sense of my Catholicism.

And I'm not going to turn this into Catholic therapy, but I will ask this.

Forgetting about the fact that my wife and I couldn't get married in a church because the church, otherwise known as leaders in the Vatican who make these policies and laws and rules for those of us who are Catholic, if you're divorced, you can't get married unless you're in a church, unless you have an annulment, which I wasn't going to do because my ex-wife and I had a son together and I knew what that meant to him, and so it wasn't going to happen.

Fast-forward.

What responsibility do you believe the church leaders have had over years and have failed, by any reasonable standard, to confront and deal with the pedophilia that has gone on, rampant pedophilia by priests who are often moved from parish to parish without new parishioners of those new churches and those new children knowing who those priests are and what their history is?

Also, with Catholic church leaders engaging with really smart lawyers and figuring out how to make "out-of-court" settlements with the parents of those children and those children to give money, which comes, last time I checked, in the basket on Sunday that those of us who go put into it.

There's a question here, trust me.

And then that money's used to say, "Listen, here's 300 grand, but don't talk about this."

So, let's be consistent.

How terribly has the church failed based on what you just said Pope Leo refers to in the gospel to protect our children and to be honest about their own failures as leaders of the church?

- To answer the question, what responsibility does the church have for that, it has total responsibility, right?

And it has taken total responsibility.

For example, there is no priest who's been credibly accused of abuse who's ministering any longer, right?

So the church, I think, has been very good.

I mean, it took a while to get there.

- Decades.

Decades.

- Correct.

It took a while to get there, but I think the church today is extremely strong on that, is working with victims, pays restitution as we should.

But priests are removed immediately these days.

Even any sort of credible accusation, the priest is removed.

So, it took us a while, but I think we got there.

But no, the church has total responsibility to apologize, to make restitution, and to, as far as possible, make the victims whole from these terrible crimes.

But we are at a far different place than we were in 2002.

Now in 2026, there is, as I said, there's no priest in ministry who has been credibly accused.

So, I think that's a very big step forward.

And what the church wants to do is to really show that they are taking steps from the very top to address this.

And I think, in that sense, the church has made great progress.

- And along those lines, while there are more and more people joining the Catholic church, which, particularly younger people, which is fascinating and exciting on some level, for those of us, and I won't make this about me, but I know I'm representative of millions of others who have strayed to a degree and are constantly looking to find a way back and often use what I just went on that whole monologue as, whether it's an excuse or a reason, I'm not sure.

What do you say to the rest of us who call ourselves Catholic, but are not practicing, frankly, in the way we would really want to?

- I think those are two different questions.

The first question is, what do you do with a church that is sinful, right?

And I think that, yeah, I think the first thing is that you don't excuse the crimes or the sins.

And you try to- - Do we forgive, Father?

Do we forgive?

- Well, Jesus forgives his executioners from the cross, so he's our model, right, in forgiveness.

It's a high bar.

But I would also say that, while we don't excuse those things, the search for a religious organization without sinners in it is a search without end, right?

So, if you're going to join a church, or any sort of religious organization, there's going to be sinful people in it because we're human natured.

But the second question about what do I say to Catholics who feel abandoned by the church or distanced from the church?

I often say to them that, if you feel a desire to come back to the church, to see that as a call from God, right?

Because the church, the other thing, is that the church needs you, right?

The church needs people to help it to always to grow, right, and to deepen and to get holier and holier.

But I also understand why people fall away and why people decide not to join the church.

I mean, there's lots of other reasons as well that people.

But again, for me, this is my home.

And I often think about it like a family.

You know, I mean, you are with your family in tough times and in good times, and also your country.

You're with your country in tough times and in good times.

And so I think the church is our family and it's a home.

It's an imperfect home, but it's also our home.

And it's where Jesus is.

- You spent time with Pope Leo.

You spent time with our previous Pope.

What's Pope Leo, an American, like?

- I think the thing I want most people to know is that he's a great guy.

I mean, I hope people can tell that already.

I knew him slightly before his election.

We were at a big church meeting called the Synod.

We were at the same table for 2 weeks, and I got to know him a little bit.

What is he like?

The first word that comes to mind is he's very reserved.

He's a very reserved kind of quiet person.

He's kind, he's smart.

He's a good decision maker.

I asked someone who had worked with him for a long time and who knew him for 40 years, and he said all these things.

He's kind, he's smart.

He's a good listener.

He makes good decisions.

He's energetic and hardworking.

But he's no pushover.

That's the line that really stuck with me.

I mean, this is a guy who has kind of a real backbone.

I think we're really seeing that.

I think he's the perfect choice, frankly.

I think the Holy Spirit did a great job, and I was delighted.

- Yeah.

Last question.

With America and the world sometimes feeling, we just, the World Cup just finished.

So, United States of America was exposed to all kinds of, by the way, why soccer/football in Europe and other places, why people are so passionate.

And we think the NFL is the only football, but that's not the question.

As polarized as we often seem to be, Father, not just in our country, but in the world, what causes you to be as optimistic as you, at least to me, appear to be?

- What causes me to be optimistic is the resurrection.

Christ has risen.

And that even when the disciples thought everything was done on Good Friday and Holy Saturday, God has something else in store for us.

And look, I mean, even if you look at it from a sort of a news point of view, you can see how things could change.

No one ever thought there would be an American Pope.

No way.

There would never be an American Pope.

And guess what?

There is.

And so, like the resurrection, God is always ready to surprise us.

And so I think that gives me a great deal of hope.

- Yeah.

The book is called "Work in Progress: Confessions of a Busboy, Dishwasher, Caddy, Usher, Factory Worker, Bank Teller, Corporate Tool, and Priest."

By the way, Father Martin has left out a couple of other jobs.

Before I let you go, "Work in Progress".

Are we all that?

Are we all just a work in progress?

- We are.

The book, the title of the book "Work in Progress," has three meanings.

One, I'm a work in progress, and it's kind of sort of my story.

The reader is a work in progress.

And also, it is the progression of my different jobs.

So, there are the different works in progress.

So that was kind of the lighthearted title I chose.

- The author is Reverend James Martin, who's also the author of New York Times Bestselling book, "Learning to Pray."

He's a leader in media.

He's a leader in the church.

He's a scholar.

He's a teacher.

And he just provided us with a compelling half-hour of programming that hopefully will make you think.

I know it did that for me.

Father Martin, my son Steven was right.

You are not just a smart, articulate, thoughtful guest who would be great on the show, you're really a terrific person.

And I really appreciate you taking the time to meet with us.

Thank you, Father Martin.

- Thank you.

My pleasure.

- All the best.

I'm Steve Adubato.

That's Father Martin.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by The Adubato Center for Media Leadership.

Kean University.

New Jersey Sharing Network.

The Fund for New Jersey.

Delta Dental of New Jersey.

NJM Insurance Group.

Community FoodBank of New Jersey.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

And by The Burke Foundation Promotional support provided by The Chamber of Commerce Southern New Jersey.

And by Insider NJ.

To see more Think Tank with Steve Adubato programs visit us online at steveadubato.org.

If you would like to express an opinion, email us at info@caucusnj.org.

Find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/steveadubatophd and follow us on Twitter @steveadubato.

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