>> WELL, WE TURN NOW TO THE ISSUE OF POVERTY IN AMERICA WHICH OUR NEXT GUEST ARGUES IS OFTEN RACIALIZED AND MARGINALIZED AS A BLACK ISSUE IGNORING MILLIONS OF IMPOVERISHED WHITE PEOPLE.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, ESTEEMED CIVIL RIGHTS CAMPAIGNER, DR. REVEREND WILLIAM BARBER AIMS TO EXPOSE MYTHS ABOUT RACE AND CLASS IN ORDER TO RECONSTRUCT AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

AND HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE CAUSES OF POVERTY AND THE POLICIES THAT CAN ADDRESS IT.

>> REVEREND DR. WILLIAM BARBER, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, GLAD TO BE HERE WITH YOU.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN A BOOK CALLED "WHITE POVERTY," IT'S BASED ON A LOT OF TRAVELS AROUND THE COUNTRY.

VERY VIVID.

WHY IS A BLACK MAN WRITING A BOOK CALLED "WHITE POVERTY."

>> YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE BOOK, I OWN BEING BLACK, I ALSO OWN THE EARLY STRUGGLE MY FATHER WENT THROUGH WHEN HE TRIED TO GET IN THE HOSPITAL TO OWN ALL THAT I AM.

WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY IN AMERICA IS I'M A BLACK MAN WRITING ABOUT WHITE POVERTY BECAUSE I BELIEVE THE MYTHOLOGY AROUND POVERTY, THE RACIST IMAGES THAT ARE OFTEN PUT IN FRONT ANYTIME WE TRY TO DEAL WITH POVERTY, BLACK MOTHERS ON WELFARE, DOMINATE THE MYTHOLOGICAL IMAGINATIONS OF AMERICA, AND NOT ONLY DEMEANS BLACK PEOPLE, TO SUGGEST THAT POVERTY IS A BLACK ISSUE, WHAT IT DOES IS IT LEAVES OUT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF WHITE PEOPLE.

UNTIL WE FACE THE REALITY OF WHITE POVERTY IN AMERICA AND ALL POVERTY IN AMERICA, THIS BOOK IS WRITTEN TO SAY, WE MUST TRULY LOOK AT ALL OF THE POOR IN OUR NATION.

NOT MAKE IT A MARGINAL ISSUE BUT A CENTRAL ISSUE BECAUSE IN THE RICHEST NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, THE POVERTY THAT WE HAVE NOW THAT YOU CAN CHANGE, THAT'S ABOLISHABLE IS ONE OF OUR GREATEST IMMORAL REALITIES.

>> YOU WRITE THAT THE NUMBERS THAT WE USE, THE NAMES THAT WE USE ON POVERTY ARE NOT ONLY A LIE, YOU CALL THEM A DAMN LIE, EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> WELL, IT'S REALLY BOTHERSOME, PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION, PUBLIC POLICY, WHEN YOU TALK TO THE AVERAGE PERSON, A GOVERNMENT PERSON, THEY'LL TELL YOU, POVERTY IS 30 SOME MILLION PEOPLE.

OUR NATION ACTUALLY SAYS IF A PERSON MAKES 7.25 AN HOUR THEY'RE NOT POOR.

WE KNOW THAT'S NOT TRUE.

WE LOOK AT THOSE IN POEFVERTY, THERE WASN'T GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE, IMPOVERISHED, MAKE LESS THAN 15, $16 AN HOUR, LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE.

WE HAVE NOT RAISED THE MINIMUM WAGE FOR 14 YEARS, SINCE 2009.

WAITERS AND WAITRESSES MAKE $2.13 AN HOUR BY LAW, BUT WHAT YOU RECK ANYTHING IS THE POVERTY NUMBERS ARE MUCH HIGHER.

IN FACT, OUR NUMBERS SHOW THEY'RE AROUND 135 MILLION POOR AND LOW WAGE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND EVERY TIME WE SUGGEST ANYWAY THERE'S 30 SOME MILLION, PRIMARILY A BLACK OR BROWN ISSUE, IT IS A LIE.

IT'S A DAMN LIE IN THE SENSE THAT THE ANCIENT PROPHETS DAMN SITUATIONS SAID THEY WERE JUST WRONG, AND IT'S A LIE.

POVERTY IS NOT ABOUT ANOMALY.

IT'S A FEATURE, IT'S A FEATURE OF OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM.

OVER 41% OF OUR ADULTS ARE POOR AND OR LOW WEALTH, AND 50% OF OUR CHILDREN, AND WE MUST DEAL WITH IT WHOLLY BY RECOGNIZING IT.

>> YOU SAY IT'S A CENTRAL FEATURE OF OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM.

DO YOU THINK IT JUST BAKED IN TO WHAT AMERICAN CAPITALISM IS.

>> WHETHER OR NOT IT'S BAKED IN, IT'S A REALITY, CONSISTENT AND PERSISTENT.

THE REALITY IS YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, WE HAVE THESE NUMBERS FOR POVERTY, AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IS WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH IT.

ONE GROUP, POLITICIANS WANTING TO SAY POVERTY IS THE MORAL FEELING OF POOR FOLK OR IT'S JUST A MINORITY ISSUE, PRIMARILY BLACK AND BROWN, WHEN IN FACT, IN RAW NUMBERS, THERE ARE 66 MILLION POOR AND LOW WAGE WHITE PEOPLE, SOMETHING IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 26 MILLION POOR AND LOW BLACK PEOPLE.

IT IS 58 TO 60% OF BLACK PEOPLE, AND THAT 66% IS 30% OF WHITE PEOPLE, BUT THE PROBLEM IS WE DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THAT, AND SO WHAT WE HAVE IS A SITUATION WHERE NOW POOR PEOPLE ARE DYING AT A RATE FROM POVERTY ACCORDING TO A RECENT STUDY OF 800 PEOPLE A DAY AND OVER 290 SOME THOUSAND PEOPLE A YEAR ARE DYING FROM UNNECESSARY, ABOLISHABLE POEFRLT.

T POVERTY.

THE FACT THAT WE CAN HAVE TIME AND TIME AGAIN, PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, SENATE ELECTIONS AND THE DEBATES GO ON AND ON, AND WE NEVER TALK ABOUT THE 41% OF OUR AMERICANS THAT ARE IN POVERTY, THERE'S NOT A STATE WHERE POOR PEOPLE ARE NOT AT LEAST 30% OF THE POPULATION, AND SOME STATES OVER 40%, AND WE DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT IT.

WE DON'T EVEN DEBATE IT.

THAT'S WHAT WE MEAN BY CENTRAL, BUT IT'S BEING STREETED LIKE IT'S A MINOR ISSUE WHEN IT'S IN FACT A MAJOR ISSUE.

>> ONE OF THE CORE THEMES OF YOUR BOOK IS A CORE THEME OF POLICY IN MYSTERY HISTORY, WHICH IS THE NOTION THAT BLACKS AND WHITES COULD BE TOGETHER IN A WAR ON POVERTY AS IN THE OLD PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENTS AND WHAT DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING TRIED TO DO, BUT NOWADAYS, BLACKS AND WHITES ARE PITTED AGAINST EACH OTHER INSTEAD OF UNIFYING IN A WAR ON POVERTY.

WHY HAS THAT HAPPENED?

>> WELL, WHAT WE SAY IN THE BOOK IS IT'S NOT DECENT OR NEW.

IT'S A CONTINUUM UNDER THE DIVIDE, THERE WAS THE WELFARE RIGHTS OF WOMEN.

WHITE WOMEN, DR. KING SAID WE NEEDED A POOR PEOPLE'S CAMPAIGN.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS DR. KING TALKED ABOUT, MIRACLES THAT EXISTED, ONE FLOWING WITH MILK AND HONEY, PROSPERITY, AND THEN THE OTHER ONES FULL OF PAIN.

WHAT WE KNOW IS DOWN THROUGH HISTORY, WHETHER IT WAS THE EFFORT TO BREAK APART THE COORDINATION OF BLACK, FORMER SLAVES, AND WHITE PEOPLE THAT CAME TOGETHER AFTER THE CIVIL WAR TO RECONSTRUCT THE MIRACLE OR WHETHER WE SAW THE EFFORTS OF THE SOUTHERN STRATEGY OF LATE '60s THAT DECIDED THEY WERE GOING TO ENGAGE IN INTENTIONAL POLARIZATION, AND THAT THEY WERE GOING TO SPLIT A BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE, SO THOSE PERSONS WOULD NOT COME TOGETHER AND FORM A POWERFUL VOTING BLOC THAT COULD SHIFT THE ECONOMIC ARCHITECTURE OF THE COUNTRY.

WE HAVE SEEN DOWN THROUGH HISTORY, THERE'S AN ATTEMPT TO SEPARATE THE PEOPLE THAT SHOULD BE TOGETHER.

IN OUR BOOK, WE TALK ABOUT MYTHS.

ONE MYTH IS THAT PALE SKIN IS A SHARED INTEREST.

IN OTHER WORDS, THAT SKIN COLOR OUT WEIGHS THE ABILITY TO UNIFY AROUND POLICY OR SAVINGS THEIR LIVES.

WE BELIEVE THAT'S A MYTHOLOGY.

ONLY BLACK FOLK WANT CHANGE IN AMERICA.

THAT IS NOT TRUE.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS OVER 60% OF AMERICANS WANT TO SEE US RAISE THE MINIMUM WAGE TO A MINIMUM WAGE.

>> IN YOUR BOOK, YOU HAVE A LOT OF EXAMPLES POLITICALLY WHERE YOU'RE AROUND THE COUNTRY AND YOU CAN SEE HOW LOW INCOME W WHITES AND LOW INCOME BLACKS COULD WORK TOGETHER ON POLICY, AND HAVE VOTED TOGETHER AT TIMES.

DESCRIBE THAT AND WHY IS THAT NOT MORE COMMON?

>> WELL, WHAT WE'RE SEEING, AND IT'S NOT OFTEN TALKED ABOUT, THE SWING VOTE IN THIS COUNTRY IS POOR AND LOW WAGE FOLKS.

IT'S THE LARGEST BLOC OF VOTERS WHERE YOU COULD HAVE AN EXPANSION OF THE VOTING POPULATION.

FIRST OF ALL, BLACK AND WHITE AND BROWN AND WHATNOT, POOR AND LOW WAGE PEOPLE DO VOTE, YOU OFTEN HEAR THEY DON'T, BUT THEY DO.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE EXIT POLL, THEY VOTED IN THE MAJORITY FOR A PROGRESSIVE IDEA.

THEY VOTED IN THE MAJORITY FOR CANDIDATES THAT REPRESENT SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF PLUS 54%, 55%.

WHAT WE KNOW MEANS THAT SO OFTEN IS TO SUGGEST WHAT THEY DON'T WANT TO SUGGEST.

THIS IS JUST SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO BLACK PEOPLE, AND THEREFORE BLACK PEOPLE OR BLACK WOMEN ARE GETTING SOMETHING, AND YOU'RE LOSING SOMETHING.

AND THAT'S USED AS A WEDGE.

WHEN, IN FACT, PEOPLE FIGURE OUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE, THEY COME TOGETHER.

TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, WE WENT TO EASTERN KENTUCKY WHERE WHITE, HARLAN COUNTY, KENTUCKY, ACTION AND STARTED THE WAR ON POVERTY, AND I MET WITH TWO OR 300 POOR AND LOW WAGE, MOSTLY WHITE PEOPLE, WHO WERE MINORS, WHO NO LONGER HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS BECAUSE WHEN THE POWERS THAT BE ALLOWED MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES TO TAKE OVER THEIR MINES, THEY DIDN'T ENSURE THAT THEY WOULD HAVE THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS, AND ON THAT DAY, WE PUT UP A CHART OF WHERE STATE LEGISLATUORS STOOD ON ANTI-GAY, AND ANTI-ABORTION, AND PRAYER IN SCHOOL.

THEN WE PUT UP A CHART SHOWING WHERE LEGISLATORS STOOD ON LIVING WAGES, AND UNION RATES AND LABOR RIGHTS AND HEALTH CARE.

AND WHEN WE STEPPED BACK FROM THAT CHART, ONE OF THE GUYS WHO I TALKED ABOUT IN THE BOOK SAID WE'RE BEING FOOLED.

WE'RE BEING BAMBOOZLED.

HE SAID THESE FOLK ARE COMING TO US, AND THEY'RE TELLING US THEY'RE FAMILY VALUE BECAUSE THEY'RE ANTI-GAY, AND ANTI-ABORTION, ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY'RE VOTING AGAINST OUR UNION RIGHTS, WHICH MEANS THEY'RE VOTING AGAINST HARLAN COUNTY.

IN 2018 WHEN BLACK AND WHITE FOLKS FOUND THAT OUT AND CAME TOGETHER, THEY UNSEATED AN INCUMBENT GOVERNOR, AND SEVERAL OF THOSE COUNTIES THAT WE WERE IN, THEY ACTUALLY WENT FROM RED TO BLUE.

I DON'T BELIEVE WE ACTUALLY KNOW A RED STATE OR BLUE STATE, BECAUSE WE HAVE NEVER SEEN A PUSHING OF THE ELECTORATE THAT'S POSSIBLE, AND WE HAVE CERTAINLY NEVER SEEN POOR AND LOW WAGE FOLKS VOTE AT THE SAME LEVEL THAT WEALTHY ARE VOTING OR MIDDLE CLASS ARE VOTING.

>> YEAH, BUT YOU LOOK AT DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, I MEAN, EVEN DEMOCRATS THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO BE PART OF THIS MOVEMENT THEY'RE NOT DOING A LOT OF THAT TALKING.

WHY IS THAT?

>> WHICH IS WHY WE QUESTION IT, WE SAY THAT REPUBLICANS ARE WRONG, WHEN THEY SUGGEST THAT POVERTY IS A MORAL FAILING OF INDIVIDUALS AND NOT AN ISSUE OF POLICY.

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MORAL YOU LIVE IF YOU ONLY MAKE $7.25 AN HOUR, YOU'RE COMING OUT POOR AND THAT'S A POLICY ISSUE.

DEMOCRATS TALK ABOUT MIDDLE CLASS AND THEY TALK ABOUT LISTING ON THE MIDDLE, AND THEY TALK ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO GET INTO THE MIDDLE CLASS, AND WHAT WE ARE SAYING TO BOTH SIDES IS STOP TALKING AND TALK LOW WAGE PEOPLE.

>> WAIT A SECOND, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT TALKING TO THE MIDDLE CLASS THAT WAY, GETTING INTO THE MIDDLE CLASS, IT SOUND LIKE JOE BIDEN.

YOU BLAMING HIM TOO?

>> THIS IS AN AMERICAN -- HAS NOT BEEN ONE PARTICULAR PRESIDENT OR DEMONSTRATION.

WHAT THIS BOOKS POINTS OUT IS FAR TOO LONG.

AND WE MAY FALL INTO SOME MARGINAL ISSUE, WHEN WE DO TALK ABOUT IT, WE TEND TO MAKE UP A WORD, WE TEND TO BLACKIZE IT.

AND WHEN WE DO TALK ABOUT IT, IT MIGHT BE ONE DAY ON THE NEWS, AND THEN IT GOES AWAY OR WE ONLY TALK ABOUT HOMELESSNESS.

WHAT WE'RE ARGUING, WHETHER IT'S BIDEN OR TRUMP OR OBAMA OR CLINTON OR BUSH OR WHOEVER COMES NEXT, THAT WE AS AMERICA MUST FACE THIS ISSUE.

WE MUST FACE POVERTY, WE MUST FACE THE WOUNDS OF POVERTY, TO BLACK PEOPLE AND WHITE PEOPLE, WHEN EIGHT DEMOCRATS AND ALL THE REPUBLICANS VOTED AGAINST RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE TO $15 AN HOUR, WE DIDN'T CARE IF THEY WERE DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN.

THAT WAS WRONG.

NOT ONLY WAS IT WRONG BASED ON OUR CONSTITUTIONAL CLAIM OF JUSTICE, IT'S WRONG BASED ON OUR RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS, AND ALL OF THESE POLITICIANS THAT PUT THEIR HANDS ON THE BIBLE, AND SWORE TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT BIBLE SAYS WHETHER IT'S THE SCRIPT TORS, THE JEWISH, CHRISTIANS, ALL HONOR, OR WHETHER IT'S FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT, THAT THE POOR, MUST BE AT THE CENTER OF HOW HANDLE AND BILL OUR SOCIETY.

THERE'S A GREAT SCRIPTURE I USE OFTEN, ISAIAH CHAPTER 10, VERSUS 1 THROUGH 3.

THOSE WHO LEGISLATE EVIL AND ROB THE POOR OF THEIR RIGHTS AND MAKE WOMEN AND CHILDREN PLAY.

BOTH THE BIBLE AND CONSTITUTION, POOR PEOPLE, THOSE ON THE MARGIN HAVE A RIGHT TO JUSTICE, THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO JUST SOCIETY.

THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO THE KIND OF POLICIES THAT WILL ALLOW THEM TO COME OUT OF THE UNNECESSARY, DEATH KILLING REALITY OF POVERTY.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT POLICIES THAT ARE NEEDED TO BRING US OUT OF POVERTY.

YOU TALKED ABOUT MINIMUM WAGE.

THAT'S ONE.

ARE THERE ANY SPECIFIC POLICIES LIKE THAT OR IS THERE SOMETHING LARGER YOU'RE PUSHING FOR?

>> THAT'S ONE OF THEM.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE, ON JUNE 29th, WE'RE HAVING A MASS POOR PEOPLE, LOW WAGE MARCH ON WASHINGTON AND TO THE POLL AND THERE ARE POOR AND LOW WAGE PEOPLE IN THE NATION'S CAPITOAL AND TENS AND THOUSANDS ONLINE THAT WILL TAKE THE MIC.

NOT PEOPLE SPEAKING FOR THEM.

WE'LL HAVE WHITE WOMEN FROM WEST VIRGINIA, AND BLACK WOMEN FROM THE DELTAS STANDING TOGETHER, AND THEY'RE GOING TO OUTLINE 17 AGENDA ITEMS THAT WE'RE SAYING TO BOTH PARTIES, IF YOU WANT THESE VOTES, THEY ALREADY HAVE TOLD YOU THAT THE NUMBER ONE REASON PEOPLE DON'T VOTE IS THEY DON'T HEAR THE REALITY TALKED ABOUT.

THEN YOU NEED TO SAY IF I GET THE MAJORITY, IF MY GROUP GETS THE MAJORITY, HERE'S WHAT WE WILL DO.

WE WILL STAND AGAINST POVERTY BEING THE FOURTH LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH IN THAT REALITY.

WE WILL PUSH FOR A LIVING WAGE, OF AT LEAST $15 AN HOUR, AN INDEX SO WE DON'T HAVE TO KEEP COMING BACK TO IT.

WE WILL GUARANTEE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL.

WE WILL ENSURE THE FULL FUNDING OF PUBLIC EDUCATION.

WE WILL ENSURE THAT WE'LL DEAL WITH ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE BECAUSE POOR AND LOW WAGE PEOPLE FEEL THE BRUNT OF CATASTROPHES.

WE WILL RESTORE THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT AND EXPAND VOTING RIGHTS BECAUSE VOTING RIGHTS WAS NOT A BLACK ISSUE, IT'S AN AMERICAN ISSUE.

WHEN VOTING RIGHTS ARE SUPPRESSED, IT HURTS BLACK PEOPLE, WHITE PEOPLE, WORKING PEOPLE, SO WE NEED A RESTORATION OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT, WE NEED TO EXPAND VOTING RIGHTS AND WE NEED TO BE AGAINST VOTER SUPPRESSION.

WE NEED TO SUPPORT, AND THEY NEED TO SAY IT WILL GUARANTEE THEY WILL SUPPORT WOMEN'S RIGHTS BECAUSE WHEN THERE'S A ON WOMEN'S RIGHT,S, POOR WOMEN GET HURT THE MOST, AND SO WE HAVE A 17 POINT AGENDA, IN FACT, WE HAVE THE THIRD RECONSTRUCTION ENDING POVERTY RESOLUTION, THAT WAS PROMOTED BY SEVERAL LEGISLATIVE, OVER 30 SIGNATURES, AND IT LAYS OUT, IT SAYS WHO HAS THE RESOLVE TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUE.

DURING COVID, WE PASSED CHILD INCOME TAX CREDIT, AND 60% OF CHILD POVERTY WAS DONE AWAY WITH.

WE GAVE PEOPLE EXTENDED MEDICAID EXPANSION, AND WE SAW MILLIONS OF PEOPLE NOW HAVE HEALTH CARE.

WHAT DO WE DO AFTER ABOUT SIX MONTHS, THOSE SAME LEGISLATURES TURNED AROUND AND TOOK BACK CHILD INCOME TAX.

WE TOOK BACK MEDICAID EXPANSION AND NOW MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE BEING THROWN OFF THE MEDICAID ROLLS AND THOSE CHILDREN ARE THROWN RIGHT BACK INTO POVERTY, BUT WHAT IT SHOWED IS WE CAN FIX THIS IF WE ARE WILLING TO ENGAGE WITH POLICY.

AND LASTLY, WE SHOWED THAT IT DOESN'T COST US -- IT ACTUALLY COSTS US MORE TO ALLOW THIS KIND OF POVERTY TO EXIST.

>> REVEREND BARBER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.