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A plant based, clean beauty product line that features vintage black actresses on the labels.

My business is a micro business and I was concerned about taking that risk to get this new concept out.

The Comcast Rise Grant is giving me an opportunity to take that risk, and scale up my business and take it to the next level.

I feel that my business helps increase representation for black women on the shelf.

(mellow music) - [Narrator] Reversing Roe v. Wade could reshape the national abortion debate.

What comes next for abortion access?

- We are going to have 36 million women in this country live in the 26 states that are likely to go dark and have no access to abortion care, potentially need abortion care.

- [Narrator] What will it mean for reproductive rights across the country?

- This train's only going in one direction for those who want to take away the right to a safe and legal abortion, this country.

It's going in one direction and there there's no point in fooling yourself about where it's going.

- [Narrator] On this month's Civic Cocktail, we'll explore the effects of this momentous decision.

(audience applauds) - Hello everyone, and welcome to Civic Cocktail.

I'm your host, Monica Guzman.

Almost 50 years ago, the US Supreme Court issued a landmark ruling in Roe versus Wade.

By the time many of you watch this on KCTS 9, that same institution is expected to have reversed it.

Roe v. Wade establish the right to a safe and legal abortion nationwide.

Its reversal means that each state in this extraordinarily divided country of ours will need to decide for itself whether to legalize abortions or to ban them.

In Washington state, we decided long ago that we will continue letting people get abortions here, even if Roe falls.

But the impact of this game changing decision extends far beyond access.

What changes for clinics and service providers as demand grows from other states?

Will our legislators reinforce our laws as other states rewrite theirs?

And finally, what should Washingtonians know about the broader legal implications for our rights going forward?

That, and that is a lot, is what will unpack tonight with the leading abortion service provider, an invested state legislator in this issue, and our state's top lawyer.

So with us to explore the impacts in our clinics and in our capital are my first two guests.

So please join me in welcoming Rebecca Gibron CEO of Planned Parenthood Great Northwest, Hawaii, Alaska, Indiana, and Kentucky.

And Manka Dhingra Washington state Senator from the 45th district and chair of the Senate's law and justice committee.

Thank you both for being here.

(audience applauds) Okay, that's right, deep breath.

We've got a lot to cover and I wanna start with demand.

What's gonna happen with demand for abortion services in our state.

So Rebecca, once Roe is struck down and abortion becomes illegal in many other states, including Idaho, where you live.

Demand for abortions in Washington is projected to almost quadruple.

Can Washington clinics handle the influx of new patients, particularly the three full service abortion clinics East of the cascades?

How are you preparing?

- Yeah, thanks Monica.

I think that's a great question, and as you point out the Guttmacher Institute has released some data, that upwards of 385% increase of people who need and seek abortion care, their first and closest healthcare center will be in the state of Washington.

- Right.

- So I think that what we are doing right now is everything possible to undergird our operations, to make sure that we are utilizing telehealth in balance with our bricks and mortar services, so that we can open access and be ready for what we expect to be an absolute flood of patients who are in desperate need of abortion care and can't get it in their home state.

- And I know that in Boise, Planned Parenthood closed a clinic before, the decision has not come down yet.

Why close that clinic early and then any plans to open new clinics where you can?

- Yeah so, it's a really great question.

And I think that we have been planning unfortunately for this for a very long time.

And one of the things that we have to do is look at what we think we can anticipate in terms of patient behavior and where they need to go for care.

- And what do we know about that?

What can we project?

- Really, we're learning a bit about that out of the state of Texas, and what we're finding are patients are wanting to really preserve their dignity and autonomy, and how they're accessing care.

They're getting in cars, they're driving to states where they might have friends or family members, and they're really looking far and wide for the first available healthcare center, where they can get the care that they have a right to receive.

- So Manka, Planned Parenthood, of course, is a nationwide service provider.

As a legislator here in Washington, you're elected to serve the people of Washington.

So here's a philosophical question, I suppose, given this postal landscape, does this state have an obligation to people from Idaho, Montana, or other states who would come to us for service?

And if so, how far does that obligation go, do you think?

- You know, I just wanna say it just feels so surreal to be having this conversation at this time.

I just can't believe we're here.

So I do wanna acknowledge that.

I think we absolutely have a duty to help others.

We do that from refugees, from other countries, you know?

With the Afghanistan, we set up an Afghani refugee fund.

So we do that for people across the world.

And now we are looking at doing it for Americans.

We are looking to doing it for women- - That's where we are.

- Who are Americans, who need to come to the state to access care, which to me is actually shocking.

But I'm really fortunate that we are living in a state where we can provide those services.

But many of us are very committed to making sure that we are a safe haven for others in America.

- So how do you interpret then that sense of duty or obligation in your work?

- So multiple ways, right?

One is making sure when we have mostly women individuals coming into our state, that we have some kind of services set up where hopefully we can set up some kind of scholarship, or grants, or funding so that they can access services.

The other thing that we're very concerned about is liability protection.

Liability protection for our providers, that if they are performing medically necessary, very appropriate medical care.

- To folks from out of state- - From out of state.

- Our providers, yeah.

- So they're not held liable in other states.

We really are very concerned about criminal charges that other states may want to utilize for the providers or even for the individual seeking care.

So really making sure we're trying to deal with liability issues as well as malpractice insurance, making sure we have the doctors doing this necessary work.

- I think the state of Oregon has set aside something like $15 million to help people from out of state coming in to receive care.

Is that something you'd like to see Washington emulate?

- We're taking a look at what the numbers look like.

I am really not sure what these numbers will be.

And we all know that if we have more conversations about consensual sex, about reproductive health, that the need for abortions goes down, because you can provide information so that our individuals can make smart decisions.

And unfortunately, a lot of the states where you are seeing these rights go away, you're also seeing a corresponding decrease in education and access to contraceptive services.

So it's really unclear to me what the need is going to be.

- Yep, this is a big issue that extends pretty far.

So staying with you, Manka.

You voted for a bill in March here in Washington that affirms a person's right to choose or refuse an abortion in our state.

Another new Washington law shields people who choose abortion or anyone who helps them from being sued, as you mentioned.

And allows more medical professionals as well to perform abortions.

What else do you think our legislature should do if the goal is to provide services to more women?

So, you mentioned shielding providers, you're worried about liability.

You know, we talked about the money set aside, who knows?

Is there anything else that's on that list?

- You know, I think we also have to take a look at scope of practice for other medical providers to see whether they're in a position to be performing or guiding individuals to help them make their decisions.

- What do you mean by scope of practice?

- So, we have medical assistants, we have a lot of different individuals in our medical field.

And so really taking a look at, is there other things that they can be doing?

I know we talk a lot about prescription medication that can be also mailed to other individuals in the state, taking a look and seeing what that looks like, taking a look and seeing if we have, again, someone else who can walk a patient through the conversation of what a prescription medication would do, what the consequences would be, and how to- - You mean a prescription medication that would cause- - Induce abortion.

- Induce abortion.

- Absolutely.

- Okay.

- So I think we're taking a look at that entire spectrum to see what we can do and where we need to either close loopholes or be clear on the scope of practice for those individuals.

- Gotcha.

So moving to the deepening divide, the divide that is clearly not going away.

Rebecca, you lead Plant Parenthood in six states, three of which are expected to effectively ban abortion once Roe is overturned.

Indiana, Kentucky, and Idaho, where you live and is our neighboring state.

According to data from the Public Religion Research Institute, 61% of Washingtonians think abortion should be legal in most or all cases, but only 41% of people in Idaho do.

So as an abortion service provider and advocate, what do you feel that you must do and say differently in Idaho, than you do here?

- You know, I don't know that it's about saying anything differently.

I fundamentally believe every family has an abortion story, they just may not know about it.

And so I think it is about telling our stories.

It's about removing the stigma of abortion care in this country, in these states that are going to go dark.

I mean, we're facing a public health crisis.

We are going to have 36 million women in this country live in the 26 states that are likely to go dark and have no access to abortion care, potentially need abortion care.

And so I think we have to keep talking about abortion as vital healthcare that people need.

And that when you think of the statistics, one in four women in this country have had an abortion.

So, we have to have our voices heard.

We have to keep raising these issues and talking about how it impacts all families.

- And how, when you are in Kentucky, Indiana, Idaho, obviously it's a less friendly environment to that conversation.

So, knowing what we know, that this conversation has not penetrated all that far in 50 years of Roe v. Wade, how do you wanna change, how do you wanna see that argument change given that most states in this country are gonna ban abortion?

- I think it's just what I've been talking about.

We have to keep talking about our stories and listen, everybody deserves the right to make private medical decisions without lawmaker interference.

We all should have the right to bodily autonomy and privacy in our medical decisions, with our medical providers, with our families.

We do not need lawmakers telling us what we can and can't do.

And we're in this unprecedented moment where we're being kicked out of the constitution.

We have lived with Roe v. Wade as the law of the land for 50 years.

And we are facing this unprecedented horrible moment in time that is going to reverse our right to bodily autonomy, and privacy in our medical decisions.

And so, I think we have to keep, you know, for so long, the anti-abortion activists have voted and made this one of their number one issues that they vote on.

It's time for those of us who believe in the right to safe, legal abortion, to make this our number one issue that we're voting on.

- Okay, and we'll come back to, yeah.

More on that in a moment.

Manka, the people I know and love who want to see Roe v. Wade overturned believe that many abortions harm human life to an intolerable degree.

As a state legislator working to expand abortion access, do you see a way to bridge the divide between abortion opponents and advocates?

- So to me, this is about choice.

No one is saying, I advocate that everyone should go get an abortion.

What we are saying is, a woman has a right to discuss her health needs with her doctor with no one else interfering in that decision.

And yes, it is a healthcare decision.

It is also an economic decision.

We've seen this all across the world when you have had other countries and women have finally gotten that right to have control over their bodies.

It has helped them financially.

So it's not just healthcare, it's a financial decision as well.

- And when you talk with folks who disagree- - Right.

- Is that connecting?

- You know, that is a harder connection to make.

- Right.

- I think the one that I know that I have spent time, actually, this one woman comes to mind talking about this, where she was not happy about my political stance on abortion.

And I said, listen, I would love everyone to not have an abortion, but that means we have to make sure our children get educated on sex, they get access to contraception, that we are having this conversation about our bodies.

And we have seen that is when you have those conversations and provide those access to contraception, then demand for abortions goes down.

And so if the end goal is to reduce abortions, we have to teach our children comprehensive sex ed.

We have to make contraception available and you will see that happening.

But at the end of the day, you cannot interfere between a woman's decision over her body and the doctor that she is meeting to get that procedure done.

That is not simply a place that a state needs to get involved with.

But I think there is some places where we can share, if we can say, yes, both our goals is to reduce abortion, but let's do it through these methods.

The problem- - So maybe that's a starting point.

- Well, it's a starting point, but a lot of these individuals do not wanna talk about comprehensive sex ed.

So they don't talk about free contraception.

And so, if you wanna reduce abortions, we know that's the way to do it.

But if they're not even coming to meet us in saying, let's educate our children, let's provide free contraception.

It's very hard to get to that reduction in abortions.

- Rebecca, what have you learned from the apparent success of abortion opponents?

- Well, listen, when Roe v. Wade was decided back in 1973, abortion opponents said they had a 45 to 50 year plan to overturn it.

Well, guess what we will too, and we've gotta fight.

We've gotta fight forward.

I think that the thing that is so stark to me is that medical voices and women's voices have been drowned out by politicians who wanna be in the bedroom, they wanna be in the exam room, and they're not listening to medical professionals.

You know, the ultra conservative anti-abortion voices are really taking, have a stronghold on this country, on politicians right now.

And I think we have to fight back and we have to fight hard.

You know, we have to have the kind of resolve and now's the time we have to galvanize every supporter, every voice, every patient, every person who cares about this issue has got to lean in on this moment in time.

- So, a viewer question coming in based on something we just talked about.

If Roe v. Wade is overturned, what do you think will be the impact on the availability of birth control and education?

Do you see that?

I mean, you were saying it might be a starting point to say, well, it seems like all sides want to reduce abortions, okay, we can begin there.

Are you afraid that that would be a difficult path?

- Yeah, I'll give you a great example.

In the state of Idaho where I live, on the very same day that our legislature was passing a six week abortion ban, they also refused to pass a bill that would expand access to birth control.

So this is fundamentally about power and control.

And ultimately, if we do want to reduce abortion in this country, to the senator's point, we have to provide comprehensive sex ed.

We know that teens who receive comprehensive sex ed delay sexual activity for a full 18 months longer than teens who receive no comprehensive sex ed.

So if the goal is to reduce abortion, then states should be leaning into providing state funded family planning care, comprehensive sex education, expanding access to birth control, not turning their backs.

- So let's move to, like we said, right at the beginning.

Here in Washington state, no matter what happens with Roe v. Wade, we allow abortions.

This was a 1991 law that was voted on by the public and here we are.

So this year Manka, we affirmed that right to abortion here in this state.

So yeah, striking down Roe was never gonna impact this way, but what many people don't know is that that 1991 public vote squeaked by 50.04% is what encoded, I suppose, Roe v. Wade in our state.

So, given that laws can change and attitudes can change.

From a legislative perspective, what do you think are the most likely ways, despite the laws in the books today that access to abortion here in Washington state could be threatened in the future?

- So I greatly worry about hospital mergers.

This is something that other legislators and I have been worried about for the last four, five years.

And last year with the merger of CHI Franciscan with Virginia Mason, it was again brought to the forefront.

- And then it was Swedish with Providence in 2012, right?

- Correct.

And so when we take a look at, you know, we have great laws on the books, but they're meaningless if they're no providers.

And so in the state of Washington, about half, maybe even more of our hospital beds are faith-based beds.

And we had a bill last session that talked about oversight over hospital mergers, specifically to make sure that regardless of the mergers, you don't have a reduction in access to reproductive health, end of life, and gender affirming care.

And that bill did not pass.

- Right.

- But we are working on it.

I hope, I know the bill will be back next session.

And hope- - Why didn't it pass?

- You know, this was a short session.

The bill was dropped late and it hadn't worked out all the kinks in it.

- Okay.

- There was some concerns on the length of delay on it.

So there's definitely a path forward for it.

It just needed a little bit more work.

But we have to make sure that regardless of what our laws say, that access is fundamental.

And if people can't get the care they need when they need it, it doesn't matter what our laws say.

- Any other concerns other than the faith-based hospitals?

- Well, we wanna make sure that it is accessible all across the state.

I think you had mentioned, we only have three providers East of the mountain.

- Right.

- And that is again, an issue we have to take a look at, in urban, rural areas.

Liability is, again, something I really worry about.

- Well, now that we have the law, so help me understand, 'cause we just passed that law saying, no, you can't Sue providers or anyone helping someone get an abortion here.

So why should we still worry?

- I still worry about insurance companies and personal providers, how much they're charged for the work that they do, whether if they're a pediatrician or they're an OBGYN.

And I think there's a discrepancy there.

I also wanna make sure that we're having really good conversations with the medical board in making sure doctors aren't held to a different standard if they are performing these procedures.

And I greatly worry about our medical schools and their lack of teaching on abortion care.

- Oh, interesting.

- I do have a few cousins who are medical doctors and I've often asked them, did you learn this procedure?

And they have it.

And so, if you want to preserve this right moving forward, you actually have to have providers who know how to perform this procedure.

And so I worry about our medical schools really not training our next generation of OBGYNs.

- Okay, fascinating.

Rebecca though six in 10 Americans do believe that abortion should be legal in most or all cases.

The issue is of course complicated.

The passions as you know, are very strong.

And the political stakes might be at an all time high.

So given that, what is your strategy as we approach elections in November?

- Yeah, here's what we know.

We know that 80% of Americans in this country believe abortion should be safe and legal.

Only 30% of Americans actually think that Roe v. Wade will be overturned.

Now that needle is moved after the leak.

- Yeah, I was gonna say.

- And I think, the needle's moved now after the leaked document came out.

But I think that as I was saying earlier, we have to make this a single issue voting.

You know, if you're not a single issue voter, and this issue is important to you, now's the time to be a single issue voter on reproductive health and abortion care.

Because for 45 years, 50 years, the anti-abortion movement has utilized anti-abortion goals as their single issue for voting.

We've got to get in this fight because we know 80% of American public believe in the right to safe and legal abortion.

But we've got to have our voices heard.

People need to start talking about this.

- It kind of comes back I guess, to the question about bridging the divide from before.

Because what we have now is a 50 state brawl, right?

With half the states this way, half the states that way.

And so are you saying that well, we have, it's just dig down and defend.

- It's dig down.

- It's dig down.

- That's what you think is happening.

- We have no choice.

We have people all across this country relying on us to provide healthcare to them and to fight for their right to access safe and legal abortions.

We have to start telling our stories.

One in four women in this country has had an abortion.

We all know someone who's had an abortion, whether they're talking about it or whether they feel safe enough to talk about it is the issue.

We have to have our voices heard.

Every voice matters in this moment and in this fight for this vital healthcare right.

- So I wanna turn to some reader questions.

So I keep saying reader, viewer, viewer questions.

How can we work toward holding the men who father the children accountable?

(audience applauds) - You know.

- We've been talking about women, mostly women, right?

So, what's that about.

- So, I have been thinking about this a lot because when I hear the rhetoric from other states where they really care about the child.

My question has been, are you then doing automatic parentage where the sperm donor is listed and is responsible for medical care, for childcare?

Are we doing providing health benefits for women when they need to take time off from work?

Are we doing child support payments automatically?

You don't hear any of that.

And so to me, it has nothing to do with taking care of the child.

It goes back to something you said about power and control.

It is about the ability to control the female body.

That's what it is.

If it was anything other than that, you would see a whole list of other laws about comprehensive sex ed, about contraception, about child support, about childcare, about healthcare, because that's how you take care of a child is you provide those services.

But we hear nothing about it.

All we hear about is control over the female body.

- Another question.

How would making Washington a sanctuary state for abortion be decided?

So, if we could explain that.

Seems prudent, this viewer says, to bring it to a vote to the people.

- Well, I think that Washingtonians have spoken loud and clear.

We believe in a women's right to choose.

We believe in full reproductive health and we are going to do everything we can to make sure every Washingtonian, regardless of where they live, have access to that service.

And that's what we were working on in the legislature prior to the Roe v. Wade decision.

We're gonna continue to do so.

And the same thing for other women in our country.

If they need help, Washington will be that state that provides that help.

- So, there's lots of concerns about other rights that may be in jeopardy because of the precedent that is being reversed.

So talk to us about that gender care, Other kinds of treatment, LGBTQ.

- Listen, the anti-abortion activists, the conservative right has been emboldened by this moment.

They're now saying the quiet things out loud.

- What do you mean by that?

- They're being very vocal and very bold that they're plan to go after birth control.

We have a few states across this country that are trying to, that are talking about bringing bills next legislative session to ban birth control.

They're not hiding.

- Do you know which states?

I just wanna... - Idaho's a great one.

- Idaho's one.

- Yes, we have a legislator in Idaho who said he wanted to bring a bill next year to ban IUDs.

What's next?

They're going to go after gender affirming hormone care.

They're going to go after same sex marriage.

- And just to be clear, has anyone gone after it yet?

Not yet, right?

I just wanna, has anyone said, this is what I'm gonna do next?

- Yes, there have been congressional leaders who have said they are planning to go after more of these fundamental rights across the country.

- Do you have anything to add?

- I agree with that.

I really worry about same sex marriages.

I worry about gender affirming care.

I'm greatly concerned about what's going on with the LGBTQ plus communities in states like Texas and Florida.

I mean, the writing is on the wall and has been for a while.

I just really hope people pay attention, pay more attention and do become single issue voters because that is what this moment needs.

- And if there's any doubt that this is not about power and control, the state of Missouri is trying to pass a law that would make it illegal for anyone to leave the state- - Right.

- To get an abortion.

- Yeah, it's lawsuits against people who even would drive someone, right?

- Yes.

- Yeah, and that's a proposal, but there it is.

- But they're opening the playbook, right?

- Right.

- I mean, they're no longer having these conversations in closed doors.

That's what I mean by saying the quiet things, out loud now.

- Okay.

- And I'll just like to add that you mentioned the two bills we passed this last session.

- Yes.

- Even on those bills, we had Republican amendments that were trying to put on things that Florida and Texas are doing in terms of actually holding people liable for helping individuals get abortion.

So this is not something that's happening in other states.

We're still fighting those issues in Washington as well.

- Okay.

Well, there it is.

Well, thank you.

Thank you, Rebecca.

Thank you, Senator Dhingra, for sharing your insights on such a charged topic in such a charged time.

And thanks to all of you watching remotely and our live audience here in town hall, Seattle.

We're going to take a quick break and be back soon for the second part of reversing Roe versus Wade with Washington attorney general, Bob Ferguson.

Thank you everybody.

Thank you.

(audience applauds) (mellow music) Hello everyone, and welcome back to Civic Cocktail.

In the first segment of tonight's program, we looked at the impact that removing a national right to abortion will have through the eyes of a Washington legislator and a leading service provider.

Now, we're going to explore the effect of what is technically a legal decision with the help of our state's chief legal officer.

Please help me welcome to the program, a fourth generation Washingtonian serving his 10th year as Washington state attorney general, Bob Ferguson.

Thank you, Bob.

(audience applauds) So once Roe v. Wade is overturned as everyone expects it will, every state will set its own rules around abortion access.

Our state already set those rules.

We're keeping abortion, done, yay.

And yet your office has earned quite the reputation for strong national advocacy.

You sued the Trump administration a lot.

When you thought it's policies were hurting Washingtonians.

Winning 50 out of 52 cases, quite the record.

And you've called the Supreme court's apparent reversal of the right to an abortion deeply alarming.

So given all of that, how has your office been preparing for this moment?

- Yeah, thanks Monica.

Thanks everybody for being here.

It's great to see you all.

And yeah, first I'll just say the decision, if it comes out the way it's been drafted, it's not just alarming, deeply alarming.

It's radical, it's extreme, it overturns decades of precedent.

I mean, from a legal perspective, it's- - From a legal perspective, it's extreme.

- It's as extreme as it gets.

In terms of how our office is preparing, I guess a couple things I'd say Monica one is that I wasn't shocked to see the draft and that the court may be taking this action.

So frankly, in our office, I'm a big believer in being prepared for, and the work we do on behalf of the people, to be prepared for things that might come, that we have to be prepared for.

And Donald Trump becoming president was one of those.

We spent the time leading up to his presidency, getting ready for a Trump administration.

Similar here we are anticipating, hey, there could be an opinion that rolls back protections for women in this country.

We put together a team of give or take about 20 people who are involved in preparing for a potential scenarios that this opinion, if it comes out, could have implications for providers, for women here, for individuals who will come to our state seeking abortion, you name it, there's a lot of potential legal issues.

So we've been spending a lot of time preparing for this.

- And I think you sent a letter right to Congress.

Was that one of the moves?

- Yeah, and that's another move as well.

Is that at different levels, I'm not a policy maker per se, right?

- Right.

- That's why we have our congressional representatives, but I did lead a coalition of state AGs expressing to Congress, hey, some actions they can take.

For example, to ensure that women have access to birth control through pills, for example.

Through the US mails and ensuring that that is a right for all women in our country.

So there are steps that Congress can take.

But I will say primarily our focus, my focus, my team's focus has been on the legal side, the potential legal ramifications, and just making sure we are ready from day one as much as we can be.

- So I wanna talk about the national dynamic, the landscape that's taking shape in front of us.

- Right.

- 'Cause it's a new one to say the least.

We're a nation, obviously, with enormous cultural diversity across these 50 states.

Nearly three quarters of people in Vermont believe abortion should be legal in most or all cases.

While just over a third of people in Louisiana do, right?

So here's a philosophical question for you.

Why shouldn't the law be different in states where the attitudes are different?

- Well, if that's the case, should our laws be different on whether you can have people of different ethnicities get married, right?

Whether people who are of the same gender and get married?

Pick your constitutional right, right?

We don't leave core constitutional rights up to the states to decide.

That's not how it works.

- But when so many people don't believe it ought to be a constitutional right, what then becomes the, what's the strategy?

Here we are with this sort of... - That's no different than same sex marriage, right?

It's deeply divided, especially at the time still is.

But especially at the time when the courts, look, the people right, had the politicians and the courts, but you pick your issue.

Integrating schools in our country was deeply divisive the time it happened.

You picked the issue, that's the nature of why you have courts, right?

Why we're a nation of laws, right?

And the rule of law is because you have courts who determine what rights you have, even if that's a, you're in minority position, right?

Though those rights are sacred to us as a people.

And so what's unusual here, again, assuming the Supreme court does what it looks like they're gonna do, is the ruling back a right.

- Right.

- And that is what is so unusual is the court to rule back a right that's ingraining our constitution, and the right to privacy, of which so many other rights derived from that right to privacy, by the way.

And once you rule that back, that has implications, not just for women's reproductive rights, which are profound, but for other rights that we frankly take for granted as well.

- So given all of that, what do you make of the fact that the leading court of the land has decided to go back 50 years and say, nevermind, this was a bad idea.

And they have a legal, they're making a legal case, right?

They're saying this should have never been our decision to begin with.

This should have gone to the states all along.

What do you make of that?

- Well, it's, I mean, what do I make of it?

It's ironic, right?

That so, conservatives often accuse liberal judges of being activists, right?

That's sort of the tag.

It doesn't get any anymore activist than ruling back five decades of precedent on something that's fundamental, right?

As reproductive rights.

We're talking about a pretty core right, that individuals, women enjoy in our country.

And to rule that back, why?

Because there's a different makeup of the us Supreme court.

Nothing's happened, right?

Nothing's happened since that time.

It's just a new makeup of the court.

And so what I make of that is simply that.

A new makeup of the court and as a result, a key right is potentially being ruled back.

And I worry about what that means for other rights as well.

- Right, and we'll get to that for sure.

So what's going out there, as I think I mentioned, really does feel like a okay, a 50 state legal brawl.

And it seems to just keep escalating.

You've got state laws set to ban abortions.

You've got state laws and proposals to help people from other states get abortions anyway.

Then you've got state laws trying to criminalize out of state abortions and so on.

So you've said that your job is to defend and enforce Washington state law.

- Right.

- How do you play defense against states that don't want us applying our law to their residents?

- Yeah.

I mean, what... - What does that even mean?

- Yeah, well, what it means is, well, a few things, I guess.

But number one, it's anticipating what those laws might look like from other states.

Number one, number two, not being naive about what leaders in those states or prosecutors in those states might do, okay?

- Say more about that.

What do you mean not being naive?

- Well, so it's, today I think I just ran the news today.

West Virginia legislator was sentenced for his role in the instruction on January 6th.

An elected official in West Virginia was sentenced today for his role in that.

If you told me five years ago that there'd be an instruction and elected officials would be a part of it, I'd be like, come on, this is America, right?

And so- - This is America.

- I say then that this is not a time to be naive about what's going on or what individuals in some deep red states might try to do to rights that we enjoy here in Washington state.

Or the ability of women come from their state to our state to have a safe and legal abortion.

So part of that preparation is not taking anything for granted.

What I tell my team is in some ways not dissimilar from the Trump administration years, just prepare for the worst, right?

Prepare for the worst.

'Cause I think that's just the best, a good lawyer does that, right?

My client is all of you, right?

And so, a good lawyer tries to anticipate problems and worst case scenarios, and get ready for those.

Hopefully it never comes to that, but honestly, I just think you'll see in multiple states, to call 'em extreme is an understatement, but extreme proposals potentially being adopted by those states, in which they would try to reach into Washington state and have impacts on Washingtonians.

- There's been a lot of creativity, I guess, is one generous way to put it with these laws, the Texas law and others.

Is this gonna take some creativity in response?

I mean, I'm thinking again of states saying, we don't want our residents to go to another state to do something we have decided is wrong.

So how do you begin to even answer that legally, you know?

- Yeah, some of these questions are ones of what we call sort of first impression, right?

That are a little bit unusual.

Others are more basic, right?

The sovereignty of a state like Washington, right?

Jurisdiction from another state to come into Washington and get jurisdiction over individual provider.

- We normally don't think about that.

- Exactly.

Normally there's a lot of protections for the residents here, and so I wanna be clear, while I think there are potentially extreme proposals and even legislation that will be adopted by those states.

I also feel confident that in Washington, we will be able to protect Washingtonians, and providers, and women who come to our state.

I'm not suggesting it's gonna be easy, or there won't be challenges, or that significant resources will need to be expended to do that.

But that's our job and that's what we're focused on.

- So there's been a lot of talk that the next goal for abortion opponents might be a federal ban on abortions.

- Yes.

- So, that's a political thing, that's Congress.

What do you make of that possibility?

- Yeah, I think you can take the may out of that question and say it is their next goal.

- Okay.

- That's just, this train's only going in one direction for those who wanna take away the right to a safe and legal abortion in this country.

It's only going one direction, and there's no point in fooling yourself about where it's going.

You can either get in front of that train and try and stop it, or watch it go by.

As disastrous as the overturning of Roe v. Wade will be, or would be, it can believe it or not get even worse.

And that is to your question, hey, does Congress take action to ban abortion across the United States?

And you have an individual in the white house who signs in the law.

So the ruled outcome for me at that point is actually pretty clear.

And that is that it'd be doing everything we could to in a legal fight that would inevitably ensue, that pits a federal law against a state law, right?

In the clash, and these happen from time to time and doing everything in our power to uphold the will of voters who have said, we want safe, legal abortions here.

And actions of our legislature to ensure that that is a right here in Washington state, up against the federal government that is taking a different position.

So, this is apples and origins in a certain way, but one way to think about it, right?

Is take an issue like marijuana legalization.

Federal government, you have a law making marijuana possession illegal.

You have a state like Washington that legalizes it.

You have a conflict there sometimes that can end up in court.

- Right?

- And so that's what we'd be preparing for if Congress took that extreme step.

It is a political question but, hey, elections matter, right?

And who we elect to these positions will determine that.

But I have, there's zero down in my mind.

If Republicans take control of the house, and the Senate, and a Republican president.

- That's where things are headed.

- Look, I mean, they will stop at nothing to do that.

I mean, they will stop at nothing.

And that's how I view it, and that's how I communicate to my team to prepare for it.

- Okay.

- I mean, it's no different than the 2024 election.

You know, I communicate to my team for the national election assume a worst case scenario where folks are trying to overturn the will of the voters in the United States.

What can we do to help other states, right?

Prepare for worst case scenario.

- So moving to a conversation about rights.

- Yeah.

- And beginning here, some states want to lock in their abortion laws, whether they're imminent after Roe falls or they're already on the books, like for us.

By making amendments to their constitutions.

- Right.

- Almost like putting the law, putting the preference in a safe, right?

You and governor Insley have said, you'd consider a constitutional amendment to protect abortion rights in Washington state.

How high a priority is that for you?

- I'd say for me, in my role as attorney general.

While I think it is helpful in terms of my list of priorities that I'm working on every day, that's low on my list.

- And why is that?

- I'm not minimizing the importance of it, I wanna be clear.

It's just, I try to stay focused on what I have some control over.

And we're pretty busy with the issues we're talking about already.

So a couple reasons I would say to it is that, number one, to change our state constitution adopting 1889 by design, that is difficult.

- It's tough.

- You need a two thirds vote of your state house, a two thirds vote of your state Senate, and then a majority vote of the people of the state.

Look, there are not those majorities in the state house or the state Senate.

And something tells me the 2022 elections here in Washington state are not gonna- - Not gonna change.

- Are not gonna necessarily increase those majorities to get to two thirds.

So again, so back to the practical side, I'm not sure it's practically gonna happen anytime soon.

But from a legal standpoint, that's worth mentioning, I think is that, I'm not convinced that, that right in our constitution, isn't already there.

Our state constitution, and state constitution give you greater rights in the youth constitution.

It can't give you fewer rights, okay?

And our state constitution, like I said, adopted a lot of years ago has pretty strong language around privacy.

And so that has not been tested in the courts.

In other words, is that already in our state constitution, that right to privacy does that encompass women's reproductive rights?

- So in other words, there's a low likelihood that it could ever be interpreted, our state's constitution to not already be giving that right?

- I think it's entirely possible that if that issue was ever before state Supreme court, that the state Supreme court would say, look at our constitution, look at the language- - It's already there.

- And say hey, you know what, it's there?

You don't need this constitutional amendment necessarily.

So again, I wanna be clear, I'm not minimizing that effort, right?

Of folks who are interested in that.

But I just think in the short term, I'm not sure how practical it is.

And number two, I think it's entirely possible that right is already in our state constitution.

- Okay.

Your office serves to protect the rights of Washingtonians.

To many fetus are pre-born children and full Washingtonians already.

Worthy of protection under the law and of the right to continue existing.

So do you believe a fetus has any right to continue existing, and if so, how do you balance it with the rights of the person carrying it?

- Yeah, I believe that Washington state law has a right when it comes to reproductive rights in the balancing of the interests that are involved and reproductive rights.

- Okay.

- And so what I would say is that my job is crystal clear, right?

It's to defend and enforce Washington state law.

Now it just so happens that I happen to agree with our laws on that, right?

But hey, I do that even when I don't agree with the law, okay?

We've had a death penalty in our state for many years.

I've had to defend and enforce that as an attorney general even if I disagree with those laws.

I sought to change them, but I happen to agree with them.

So, from my standpoint, I'm a statewide elected official.

I understand that on many issues that I am involved in there are deep divides.

- Right, I'm imagining somebody telling you, hey, you're our attorney general, why not protect?

You know, I believe that that life begins here.

Why aren't we protecting the rights of those humans?

- Yeah, and I would say they're entitled to their view, right?

- Yeah.

- But they're non entitled to their interpretation of law, right?

Our law is crystal clear, the voters have voted on this, right?

They've gone to the polls.

People had their chance and they voted to ensure that women have a right to a safe and legal abortion.

But I would say that person, if you feel strong about that, then you need to take action to change the make up of the legislature.

Go to the ballot box within an issue.

- With Roe overturned.

A lot of people are worried that a federally protected right to an abortion is just the first thing to go.

And this has come up a couple times tonight.

So let's talk about this.

What about the other rights that are affected effectively protected by Supreme court rulings?

So, tell us what those are.

What are the ones that feel to you like, okay, we gotta keep an eye out on that.

You've been telling your team, let's figure this out.

- Yeah, and so, just take a half step back.

So when the court issues their opinion, again, let's assume it's word for word what the draft was, just for the sake of this conversation, right?

- The Roe reversal?

- You got it.

- We saw the draft, okay, yep.

- Let's take exactly the same.

So, I'm gonna oversimplify terribly on a complex issue, right?

- Sure.

- But the right that women have enjoyed for decades is grounded in a right to privacy, okay?

- Okay.

- And so if the court takes this action, they are eroding that right to privacy in the context of reproductive rights.

- In the context of reproductive rights.

- Yes, exactly.

- Okay.

- But no Supreme court opinion operates in a vacuum by any stretch of the imagination, okay?

And there would be language in that opinion, or someone who would say, a wait a second, our right to marry who we choose, same sex marriage, is grounded in all sorts of privacy rights.

Women's right to other forms of birth control is grounded in privacy.

So again, not to sugar coat it, but I'd guarantee you what will happen next.

There will be challenges on those issues that are deeply personal to the individuals in this room and who are watching, and to women and men all- - And where would those challenges come from?

Like, how would this play put?

- Organizations that make it their mission to roll back protections that people enjoy and to fight those.

And that's just reality, right?

I mean, we had a case in our office where I filed a lawsuit against a flower shop in the Tri-Cities for not serving flowers to a same sex couple for their wedding when they serve wedding flowers to heterosexual couples.

- Right.

- Thankfully the Supreme court chose not to take that case, but there is an organization that funded that whole operation.

They've got a legal team, and that's what they do.

And they look for cases like that to take up the courts.

Look, an organization like that is gonna come right back after Roe v. Wade is overturned, if that's what happened, and take language from that opinion and say, hey, Supreme court, look what you said about privacy in this context.

Well, guess what?

It applies in this context as well.

If you apply that same rational, that same reasoning, those same principles around privacy, guess what?

Other constitutional rights start to erode as well.

And so- - So you see a legal vulnerability.

And I guess the- - There is no doubt.

- The thing that I would observe is there's been a very active pro-life movement that really hasn't led up for a long time, right?

And they've scored a big success with this.

- That's an understatement.

- But there isn't exactly like a lot of protests all over the nation, right?

Saying, down with same sex marriage.

So is that a reason to relax?

Do you know what I mean?

- It is, there would be, I cannot express Monica, the level of vigilance that would be required from residents of our state, right?

To lawyers, to anyone who cares about these issues.

Because look, there may not be protests in Washington state around, hey, same sex marriage.

But I'll tell you this, they fought that case, again, on the rights of a man to walk into a flower shop and buy flowers for his wedding to the same sex partner.

I could walk in that flower shop and buy flowers for my wife, but he could not for a same sex partner.

And they fought that for years, tooth and nail with significant resources.

- So you're saying- - Significant resources.

- It doesn't take that much to enter the courts.

- No.

- Okay.

- And when you have the resources they have, and look, that's the system, right?

I mean, - Yeah, that's how it works.

- They're entitled, that's how it works.

They're entitled to do that, I wanna be clear.

But let's not kid ourselves, Roe v. Wade, as disastrous as it would be overturning it, it is also the first stop on eroding other constitutional rights.

That there would be groups who try that.

And that is, take that to the bank, I 100% guarantee- - Yeah, I was gonna say, you seem really confident.

- Look, I just don't, look, if you told me five years ago, we'd have a president who would say Muslims can't come to the United States.

I would say, that's crazy.

If you told me if there's gonna be an insurgence at capital, I would say that would be crazy, right?

Pick your issue, but now it's just every day in the headlines, right?

And so, I just lost my being naive about these issues a long, long time ago, and just chose to take a different approach.

And that is wake up in the morning, doing everything I can to make sure that the rights of Washingtonians are protected.

- Yeah, thank you so much for joining us.

- Thanks Monica, I appreciate it.

- Appreciate attorney general, Bob Ferguson.

(audience claps) So thank you for everyone for being here.

Thanks to all of you here with me in person, in our live audience at town hall, Seattle.

And of course, to all of you participating remotely, this has been quite the conversation at quite the time.

Civic Cocktail returns in about a month when we will focus on arts and music in our region.

Oh, I'm sorry, On July 13th, I missed that.

Civic Cocktail returns on July 13th.

When we will focus on arts and music in our region, looking at the health of our creative community with leaders, from museums, music festivals, and the Seattle theater group.

You can find out more at crosscut.com/events.

Thank you everyone for joining us and good night.

(audience applauds) (mellow music) - I appreciate it.

(mellow music fades)