>>> FROM FIRING THE CDC DIRECTOR TO TERMINATING RESEARCH FOR SOME LIFESAVING VACCINES, RFK JR. HAS BEEN TEARING APART THE AMERICAN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

BUT SENATORS GAVE HIM A GRILLING AT THE HEARING EARLIER TODAY ON HIS CONTROVERSIAL AND WHAT MOST EXPERTS SAY DANGEROUS DECISIONS AS HEALTH SECRETARY.

HE FIRED BACK ACCUSING THE CDC OF FAILING TO KEEP AMERICANS HEALTHY.

>> WE ARE THE SICKEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO FIRE PEOPLE AT THE CDC.

THEY DID NOT DO THEIR JOB.

THIS WAS THEIR JOB TO KEEP US HEALTHY.

>> AND WHEN PUSHEDE THE VITAL ROLE OF VACCINES DURING COVID, KENNEDY CLAIMED INCORRECTLY THAT WE WERE, QUOTE, LIED TO ABOUT EVERYTHING.

>> WE WERE LIED TO ABOUT -- ABOUT NATURAL IMMUNITY.

WE WERE LIED TO ABOUT -- YOU KNOW, WE WERE TOLD AGAIN AND AGAIN THE VACCINES WOULD PREVENT TRANSMISSION, THEY'D PREVENT INFECTION.

IT WASN'T TRUE.

>> DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM IS THE FOUNDING DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA'S CENTER OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY.

AND HIS NEW BOOK "THE BIG ONE" EXAMINES THE GLOBAL PANDEMIC AND HOW WE SHOULD PREPARE FOR THE NEXT ONE.

HE TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN WHY THE HEALTH SECRETARY'S LATEST MOVE COULD SPELL DISASTER.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOUR NEW BOOK IS ENTITLED "THE BIG ONE," HOW WE MUST PREPARE FOR FUTURE DEADLY PANDEMICS.

BEFORE WE GET TO WHAT'S IN THE BOOK, I REALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT'S IN THE NEWS THESE DAYS.

JUST ON AUGUST 5th THE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES DEPARTMENT ANNOUNCED THE CUT OF $500 MILLION IN mRNA RESEARCH, WHICH WILL IMPACT 22 PROJECTS BEING LED BY BIG PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES, RIGHT?

IN A RECENT INTERVIEW THERE YOU SAID, I CAN SAY UNEQUIVOCALLY THIS WAS THE MOST DANGEROUS PUBLIC HEALTH DECISION I'VE EVER SEEN MADE BY A GOVERNMENT BODY.

EXPLAIN WHY?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, AGAIN, ASSUMING THE NEXT PANDEMIC MIGHT VERY WELL BE INFLUENZA, THAT'S A VIRUS THAT COULD EASILY KILL EVEN MANY MORE PEOPLE THAN WE SAW WITH COVID.

OUR ABILITY TO RESPOND TO THAT GOES BACK TO VACCINES.

AND CURRENTLY THE CAPACITY WE HAVE IN THE WORLD TO MAKE VACCINES IS LIMITED.

WE USE CHICKEN EGGS TO GROW THE VIRUS IN.

IN A YEAR OR TWO, 15 MONTHS AFTER THE PANDEMIC BEGINS WE CAN ONLY MAKE ENOUGH VACCINE TO VACCINATE LESS THAN A QUARTER OF THE WORLD.

IT TURNS OUT THE mRNA TECHNOLOGY, THE ONE WE USE FOR COVID ACTUALLY CAN BE APPLIED TO INFLUENZA, AND IT'S NOT GOING TO PROTECT A WHOLE LOT MORE.

IT'LL STILL PROVIDE THAT SAME PROTECTION WE SAW WITH THE COVID VACCINES, BUT WE CAN MAKE ENOUGH VACCINE WITHIN A YEAR TO PROBABLY VACCINATE THE WHOLE WORLD.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE IN MILLIONS OF LIVES LOST, JUST THAT ONE SIMPLE DECISION.

AND WE NEED THESE VACCINES BADLY FOR FUTURE PANDEMICS, AND RIGHT NOW THE LIKELIHOOD OF THAT HAPPENING IS CLOSE TO ZERO BECAUSE OF THAT DECISION.

>> AS PART OF THE RATIONAL FOR THESE CUTS, HE SAYS THE DATA SHOWS THESE FAIL, WE'RE SHIFTING THAT FUNDING TO SAFER BROADER PLATFORMS THAT REMAIN EFFECTIVE EVEN AS VIRUSES MUTATE.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> WELL, LET ME PUT THIS INTO CONTEXT.

ONE IS SCIENCE.

SCIENCE HAS GIVEN US THE MAJOR IMPROVEMENTS IN HEALTH OVER THE LAST 100 YEARS THAT MEANT THAT LIFE EXPECTANCY ROSE FROM THE 50s INTO THE 80-YEAR-OLDS JUST IN ONE -- OR IN A HUNDRED YEARS.

AND TODAY WE HAVE TO COUNT ON SCIENCE.

UNFORTUNATELY, WHEN MR. RFK IS PROMOTING IS WHAT WE CALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS.

WHAT THE PUBLIC HAS TO UNDERSTAND WHILE HIS COMMENTS SOUND VERY PROFESSIONAL AND MEANINGFUL, IN MANY CASES THEY MAKE NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

SO WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO EMPHASIZE IF WE WANT TO MAINTAIN THE KIND OF HEALTH PROTECTION WE'VE HAD IN THIS COUNTRY AND AROUND THE WORLD AND IMPROVEMENTS ON IT EVEN WHEN WE'VE HAD GREAT CHALLENGES WITH INFECTIOUS DISEASES, WE HAVE TO STICK WITH THE SCIENCE.

IF WE FOLLOW THE COMMENTS, THE RECOMMENDATIONS, OR THE ACTIONS OF MR. KENNEDY, WE ARE DOOMED TO SEE PUBLIC HEALTH REALLY DENIGRATE GREATLY.

>> BACK IN 2017 YOU WROTE A BOOK CALLED "DEADLIEST ENEMY."

AND IT WAS PRESCIENT IN A WAY, AND NOW YOU'VE TEAMED UP WITH THE SAME AUTHOR AND YOU WROTE "THE BIG ONE," HOW I MUST PREPARE FOR FUTURE PANDEMICS.

AND I THINK A LOT OF VIEWERS WILL BE SURPRISED THAT YOUR FEAR IS NOT COVID-19, IT'S ACTUALLY SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, WORSE.

AND YOU PLAY OUT THESE KIND OF WORSE CASE SCENARIOS AND HOW WE SHOULD PREPARE FOR THAT.

EXPLAIN.

>> WHEN I SAY WORST-CASE SCENARIO JUST TO BE CLEAR, I'M NOT EVEN SURE THIS SCENARIO WAS THE WORST CASE.

IT'S A VERY REALISTIC SITUATION.

IT'S THE -- LISTENERS MAY REMEMBER BACK IN 2003 WE HAD A GLOBAL OUTBREAK OF SARS.

AT THAT TIME THE FIRST REAL CORONAVIRUS INFECTION THAT CAUSED SERIOUS ILLNESS IN HUMANS.

BECAUSE THAT VIRUS WAS NOT VERY INFECTIOUS WE WERE ACTUALLY ABLE TO SUPPRESS ITS TRANSMISSION AND STOP IT FROM SPREADING AROUND.

BUT IT DID KILL 15 TO 20% OF THE PEOPLE THAT GOT INFECTED.

THEN CAME MERS, ANOTHER CORONAVIRUS INFECTION IN 2012 IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THAT VIRUS THEN ALSO SPREAD TO SOUTH KOREA IN 2015 WHEN A VISITOR TO SAUDI ARABIA RETURNED BACK WITH THIS VIRUS INFECTION.

IN THOSE INSTANCES THE MERS VIRUS KILLED ALMOST 35% OF THE PEOPLE IT HAD INFECTED.

SO YOU CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE WITH WHAT HAPPENED WITH COVID WHEREAS ONLY ABOUT 1.5% OF PEOPLE DIED AND I SAY ONLY WITH GREAT REGRET.

SO THE POINT BEING HERE IF YOU HAD A NEW CORONAVIRUS THAT CAN KILL LIKE SARS OR MERS OR BE SPREAD LIKE SARS KOV2 OR COVID, THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

GUESS WHAT, IN RECENT MONTHS WE'VE ACTUALLY FOUND THE VIRUS IN BATS IN CAVES IN CHINA THAT HAVE THE ABILITY TO SPREAD LIKE WHAT WE SAW IN COVID.

AND THEY HAVE THE SAME GENETIC PIECES THAT WOULD MAKE IT POSSIBLE THEM TO CAUSE SERIOUS DEATHS IN POTENTIALLY THAT 15 TO 20% RANGE.

THIS IS NOT SCIENCE FICTION IN THAT SENSE.

THIS IS I THINK IF ANYTHING A HARBINGER OF THINGS TO COME REALITY WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

>> IF YOU CAN SUMMARIZE, WHAT ARE THE BIGGEST MISTAKES WE SHOULD BE LEARNING FROM FROM COVID?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND AS A SOCIETY THIS IS GOING TO LAST FOR THREE YEARS OR MORE, AND THEREFORE WE PLANNED FOR IT MUCH LIKE YOU WOULD THINK OF A SEVERE HURRICANE, WHERE BASICALLY YOU FIND FOR 12 TO 18 HOURS IT'S HORRIBLE.

BUT YOU CAN GO INTO RECOVERY SHORTLY THEREAFTER.

AND SO ONE OF THE CHALLENGES WE HAD EARLY ON PEOPLE WANTED TO APPROACH THIS FROM THE IDEA OF A LOCK DOWN AND CLOSING EVERYTHING DOWN AND WE'D COME OUT THE OTHER END.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAD A NUMBER OF OUR LEADERS SAYING THAT IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

WE IN JANUARY OF 2020 ACTUALLY LAID OUT THE FACT THIS WAS LIKELY TO LAST MANY YEARS, AS TWO, THREE, MAYBE EVEN FOUR.

AND WE HAD TO BE PREPARED HOW WE'RE GOING TO HANDLE FOR THAT.

AND WHAT OUR REAL GOAL WAS -- IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN AT LEAST TO MAKE SURE OUR HOSPITALS WERE NOT OVERRUN.

THE ONE THING THAT COULD SAVE MORE PEOPLE'S LIVES IS TO HAVE ADEQUATE HEALTH CARE.

BUT IF YOU'RE RUNNING YOUR HOSPITAL AT 140, 150% CAPACITY, AT THAT POINT YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY CHANCE TO HOPEFULLY PROVIDE BETTER MEDICAL CARE.

AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS WE PROPOSED IS RATHER THAN DOING LOCKDOWNS IS USE WHAT WE CALL SNOW DAYS.

SO THAT IF, IN FACT, YOU ARE IN A COMMUNITY WHERE YOUR HOSPITAL BED CENSUS IS NOW AT 100% AND YOU KNOW THAT NUMBER EVERY DAY, IT'S PUBLICLY MADE AVAILABLE, AT THAT POINT YOU CAN SAY TO THE PUBLIC, PLEASE, FOR THE NEXT 10 TO 20 DAYS WE NEED TO BACK OFF WHATEVER WE CAN IN TERMS OF PUBLIC ENGAGEMENT, CROWDS COMING TOGETHER, ET CETERA, SO WE CAN GET THAT CENSUS DOWN IN OUR HOSPITALS AND HOPEFULLY PROVIDE BETTER MEDICAL CARE.

IF WE HAD DONE THAT, THAT WOULD HAVE MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD IN PEOPLE UNDERSTANDING THAT LOCKDOWNS AREN'T THE ANSWER.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF EVENTS JUST LIKE THAT THAT WE CAN LEARN A LOT FROM WITH COVID.

>> JUST THIS LAST WEEK WE HAD THE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTERS OF DISEASE CONTROL REMOVED BY RFK JR., AND WE HAD SEVERAL OFFICIALS WHO RESIGNED.

ONE OF THE OFFICIALS IN AN INTERVIEW SAID THAT BASED ON WHAT I'M SEEING, BASED ON WHAT I'VE HEARD WITH THE NEW MEMBERS OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES, THEY ARE REALLY MOVING IN AN IDEOLOGICAL DIRECTION WHERE THEY WANT TO SEE THE UNDOING OF VACCINATION.

THEY WANT TO SEE THE UNDOING OF mRNA VACCINATION.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR OUR PUBLIC HEALTH?

>> WELL, IN VERY SIMPLE TERMS, IT'S A DISASTER.

WE ARE LITERALLY WATCHING 100 YEARS OF PUBLIC HEALTH ACTIVITY THAT HAD RESULTS IN SAVING MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF LIVES POTENTIALLY FLUSHED DOWN THE DRAIN.

AND IT'S THAT IMPORTANT FOR THE PUBLIC TO UNDERSTAND THAT BECAUSE YOU NEED TO BE TALKING TO YOUR LOCAL, NATIONAL AND ELECTED OFFICIALS SAYING IS THIS THE KIND OF GOVERNMENT YOU WANT TO PROVIDE TO US?

BECAUSE THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE WHERE ONE DAY WE'LL STILL HAVE A DEBATE, WELL, WHICH ONE WAS RIGHT?

I CAN TELL YOU WHAT WILL BE RIGHT.

THE SCIENCE SIDE WILL BE RIGHT BECAUSE OF THE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO WILL DIE BECAUSE OF FOLLOWING THE SAME KIND OF IDEOLOGY APPROACH ARE GOING TO BECOME VERY APPARENT IN NOT A TOO DISTANT OF A FUTURE.

AGAIN, IF WE HAVE THAT SAME MIND-SET GOING INTO A PANDEMIC RIGHT NOW, YOU WOULD BE IN UTTER DISASTER.

AND IT'S NOT JUST HHS AND THE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICESSERVIC SECRETARY KENNEDY HEADS UP.

RIGHT NOW THERE'S NO ONE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, NO ONE WHO HAS OVERSEEN BIOPREPAREDNESS FOR A FUTURE BIOLOGICAL EVENT, ONE THAT MIGHT BE EVEN MAN MADE MEANING A BIOTERRORIST ATTACK OR A PANDEMIC.

THIS IS SUCH A MAJOR, MAJOR SHORTCOMING IN OUR PREPAREDNESS, AND SO I THINK WE NEED TO TAKE A STEP BACK.

I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT, AGAIN, IDEOLOGICALLY IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THEY DID A LOT OF GOOD THINGS TO HELP US GETTER PREPARED FOR A BIOPREPAREDNESS EVENT.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHY NOW SUDDENLY THAT TYPE OF ACTIVITY IS FROWNED ON IF NOT TOTALLY DISCOURAGED WHEN, IN FACT, THAT WAS THE HALLMARK OF THE TRUMP ONE ADMINISTRATION.

>> WE HAD RECENTLY A MAN WHO OPENED FIRE AT THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL IN HASN'T, AND HE WAS MOTIVATED IN PART I GUESS BY HIS DISCONTENT WITH THE COVID-19 VACCINE.

AND IT COMES BACK TO THAT DISINFORMATION QUESTION.

ON THE ONE HAND ON THE COLUMN HERE YOU'VE GOT SCIENTISTS WORKING WITH A SERIES OF FACTS.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT EFFICACY AND TRYING TO COMMUNICATE BETTER.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE TEAM THAT WANTS TO DISINFORM AND ACTIVELY, YOU KNOW, ENGAGE USERS FOR THEIR CLICKS, ET CETERA, THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO ANY OF THAT.

THEY JUST HAVE TO HAVE EMOTIONAL APPEALS AND KIND OF GET INTO SOMEBODY'S HEAD, AND THAT IS PRETTY EFFECTIVE.

>> THAT'S SCARY.

NOW, LET ME JUST TELL YOU ON A PERSONAL LEVEL HAVING BEEN IN THE FRONT ROW OF THE PANDEMIC RESPONSE DURING COVID AND HAVING RECEIVED DEATH THREATS.

I KNOW WHAT THE CONCERNS ARE OF MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES IN TERMS OF WHY DO WE DO OUR JOB EVERY DAY?

WHAT DO WE DO TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND OUR FAMILY MEMBERS?

THIS IS A HUGE CHALLENGE.

AND IN THE FIRST INSTANCE THE PUBLIC HAS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S AT RISK HERE, IS LOSING PUBLIC HEALTH WILL MEAN THERE WILL BE MANY, MANY MORE OUTBREAKS OF DISEASES WE CAN CONTROL BY VACCINES, BY HAVING SAFE WATER SUPPLIES, DEALING WITH MOSQUITO POPULATIONS THAT ARE SUDDENLY SPREADING, EXOTIC VIRUSES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH DOES ALL THE TIME.

AND IF PUBLIC HEALTH DOES ITS JOB REALLY WELL, YOU NEVER HEAR ABOUT ANYTHING BECAUSE WE ACTUALLY PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT THE CHALLENGE IS RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE HAVE ENJOYED SO MUCH PREVENTION FROM GROUPS LIKE CDC OVER THE YEARS, PEOPLE SAY, AH, IT'S NOT REALLY NECESSARY.

WELL, IT WILL COME BACK.

AND, AGAIN, I JUST WANT TO STRESS OVER AND OVER AGAIN WE CAN'T PREPARE FOR THE BIG ONE IF WE'RE NOT, IN FACT, PREPARING FOR EVERY DAY EVENTS RIGHT NOW.

SOMEBODY HAS TO CALL THE QUESTION, ARE WE GOING TO CONTINUE TO PURSUE THE KIND OF ACTIVS THAT MR. KENNEDY WANTS US TO DO, THAT SOME OF THE PUBLIC ARE SURELY EVEN WILLING TO BRING VIOLENCE TO THE TABLE TO DEAL WITH THAT ISSUE?

OR ARE WE GOING TO CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN THAT SCIENCE-BASED APPROACH WHERE BASICALLY WE'RE CONSTANTLY LEARNING ABOUT THESE INFECTIOUS DISEASES OR OTHER HEALTH CONDITIONS AND TRYING TO MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE.

REMEMBER NO ONE GOES INTO PUBLIC HEALTH TO GET RICH.

NO ONE GOES INTO PUBLIC HEALTH TO BECOME FAMOUS.

PEOPLE GO INTO PUBLIC HEALTH TO SERVE.

THEY GO INTO PUBLIC HEALTH TO HELP.

AND THAT'S I THINK THE QUESTION WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO GET US BACK TO THAT NORM?

>> RIGHT NOW OUR CONVERSATION SO FAR HAS BEEN FOCUSED PRIMARILY ON THE UNITED STATES, BUT I ALSO WANT TO ASK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN USAID HAS BEEN SLASHED, AS IT HAS BEEN?

AND WHAT OUR VISIBILITY IS FOR VIRUSES, FUTURE PANDEMICS OVERSEAS BECAUSE VIRUSES DON'T CARE ABOUT BORDERS, RIGHT?

AND I WONDER IS THERE, YOU KNOW, THAT LOSS OF FUNDING AND INFRASTRUCTURE?

CAN YOU EITHER QUANTIFY OR QUALIFY THE EFFECTS THAT THAT WILL HAVE DOWNSTREAM?

>> WE HAD WITHDRAWN SUPPORT, AS YOU NOTED, FROM USAID, ONE OF THE MOST SUCCESSFUL SOFT POWER EFFORTS EVER PUT FORWARD BY ANY GOVERNMENT NOT JUST OURS IN TERMS OF LIVES SAVED, IN TERMS OF ENDEARMENT OF LOCALS, IN COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD FOR STATE SUPPORT, AND AS WELL THE FACT WE PULLED OUT OF THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION.

WE'RE NO LONGER A MEMBER THERE.

WE'RE NOT PART OF THE ROUTINE COMMUNICATIONS.

WE ARE NOT CONTRIBUTING TO KNOWLEDGE AT W.H.O., BUT WE'RE ALSO NOT LEARNING FROM IT.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY INFECTIOUS DISEASES, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT START ON A DISTANT SHORE AND CAN COME TO OUR COUNTRY.

LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED IN 2015, '16 WITH EBOLA IN AFRICA AND THE CONCERN WE HAD ABOUT IT GETTING HERE.

BY NOT PARTICIPATING ON THE INTERNATIONAL LEVEL, WE ACTUALLY SHOOT OURSELVES IN THE FOOT IN TERMS OF PROTECT OURSELVES.

BORDERS IN AND OF THEMSELVES WILL NOT KEEP INFECTIOUS AGENTS FROM GOING FROM ONE COUNTRY TO ANOTHER.

WHAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE IS STOPPING THOSE IN THEIR TRACKS IN THOSE COUNTRIES WHERE THEY BEGIN.

WE ARE LOSING THAT OPPORTUNITY.

WE'RE GOING TO SEE A RESURGE PS IN HIV/AIDS, A RESURGENCE OF TUBERCULOSIS AND A RESURGENCE OF MALARIA, AND GUESS WHAT?

THEY'RE ALL GOING TO LAND IN THE UNITED STATES EVENTUALLYCH AND BECAUSE WE ALL LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE TRAVEL IS SO UBIQUITOUS WE'RE GOING TO SEE U.S. CITIZENS GOING TO COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD BEING IN MUCH GREATER RISK BECAUSE WE'RE PULLING OUT OF THAT ARENA.

WE ARE NOT HELPING US AT ALL.

WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT PUTTING AMERICA FIRST.

THIS PUTS AMERICA LAST.

>> YOU'RE LEADING AN INITIATIVE CALLED THE VACCINE INTEGRITY PROJECT.

WHAT -- WHAT'S THE NEED YOU'RE TRYING TO ADDRESS WITH THIS?

>> WELL, WHAT WE REALIZED EARLY ON AFTER THE ELECTION WAS THAT BASED ON THE 2025 DOCUMENT AND WHAT THE PRIORITIES WERE FOR DISMANTLING PUBLIC HEALTH, THAT ONE OF THE FIRST AREAS TO GO WAS LIKELY TO BE VACCINES.

AND OF COURSE WITH MR. KENNEDY BEING DOMINATED FOR HEALTH SECRETARY OF HUMAN SERVICES, WE RECOGNIZE HIS MAJOR ANTI-VACCINE THEME WAS GOING TO BE CARRIED THROUGH.

ACTUALLY IN NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR I WROTE AN ARTICLE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" LAYING OUT WHAT LIKELY COULD BE LOST IN PUBLIC HEALTH IN THE FUTURE WITH A KENNEDY HHS APPOINTMENT.

AND SURE ENOUGH THE VACCINE ISSUES THAT WE WORRIED ABOUT ARE HAPPENING.

LET ME JUST SAY THAT AT THIS POINT IT'S VERY, VERY CLEAR THAT THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE'RE SEEING HAPPEN AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO HAPPEN UNLESS WE SEE CONGRESS STEP UP AND BEGIN TO INSERT ITSELF INTO THIS PROCESS.

REMEMBER AT THE TIME WHEN THE CONFIRMATION HEARINGS WERE HELD WE ACTUALLY HAD MR. KENNEDY PROMISING TO -- SECRETARY -- OR TO SENATOR CASSIDY THAT HE WOULD NOT TAKE VACCINES AWAY FROM ANYONE.

WELL, HE DID.

THAT REALLY BROUGHT US AT OUR CENTER IN MINNEAPOLIS WITH THE IDEA THAT WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT CAN WE DO TO HELP OUT IF, IN FACT, THE ACIP, THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE OF PRACTICES IS SUDDENLY DONE IN?

WHAT ROLES DO THEY PLAY?

AND SO WE STARTED THIS NEW INITIATIVE.

AND WITH THAT WE ACTUALLY FIRST IN FOCUS GROUPS WITH A NUMBER OF VACCINE ENTERPRISE EXPERTS ALL THE WAY FROM RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT TO THE FINAL SHOT INTO THE ARM TO SAY WHAT CAN ANY NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION DO TO HELP SUPPORT WHAT WAS THERE WITH ACIP?

AND ONE OF THE THINGS WE LEARNED WAS, IN FACT, TO MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS FOR VACCINE USE, WE NEEDED TO HAVE A COMPREHENSIVE DATA THAT THE ACIP USED TO PRESENT.

WELL, WE PICK THAT UP.

WE ACTUALLY AS A EFFORT OUT OF THE VIP PROJECT BEGAN DOING A REVIEW OF ALL OF THE VACCINE INFORMATION FOR COVID, FOR RSV, AND FOR INFLUENZA, TO HAVE IT IN TIME FOR THIS UPCOMING WINTER SEASON.

AND WE DID THE ANALYSIS WHERE WE WERE ABLE TO IDENTIFY OVER 17,500 DIFFERENT PIECES OF INFORMATION, ARTICLES ABOUT THESE VACCINES.

WE SUMMARIZED THAT USING A VERY SPECIFIC PROTOCOL APPROACH, AND THAT IS NOW THE INFORMATION BEING USED BY OUR MEDICAL SOCIETIES TO DETERMINE THEIR OWN VACCINE RECOMMENDATIONS.

AND SO FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE WE ARE NOW PROVIDING WHAT ACIP ONCE DID.

>> THE DIRECTOR FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASE RESEARCH AND POLICY DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.