>> TONIGHT ON RHODE ISLAND PBS WEEKLY -- MICHELLE: JIM VINCENT CAME OF AGE DURING THE CIVIL-RIGHTS ERA.

HE HAS GONE ON TO WORK FOR THE MOVEMENT THROUGH THE NAACP.

JIM: WE CANNOT HAVE A COUNTRY WHERE IT IS A DEMOCRACY FOR WHITE PEOPLE AND A DICTATORSHIP FOR BLACK PEOPLE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT EQUALITY, THAT MEANS I HAVE A CHANCE TO COMPETE AGAINST YOU.

>> THE BLACK AND WHITE MAN IN AMERICA IS ALREADY SEPARATED.

THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE SECOND-CLASS CITIZENSHIP, POLITICAL SEPARATION, ECONOMIC SEPARATION, DISCRIMINATION, SOCIAL SEPARATION.

ALL WE ARE ASKING, SINCE SEPARATION IS PRACTICED, THOUGH NOT PREACHED, WE ARE ASKING THAT AMERICA PREACH WHAT PRACTICES OR PRACTICE WHAT IT PREACHES.

MICHELLE: GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO RHODE ISLAND PBS WEEKLY.

I AM PAMELA WATTS.

MICHELLE: I AM MICHELLE SAN MIGUEL.

WE EXPLORE RACISM AND THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEDICATED THEIR LIVES TO FIGHTING IT IN ALL ITS FORMS.

WE WILL DO A REWIND OF A 1961 INTERVIEW WITH ONE OF THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL FIGURES OF THE 20TH CENTURY.

FIRST, THE OLDEST CIVIL-RIGHTS ORGANIZATION IN THE COUNTRY, THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED PEOPLE, THE NAACP, WAS FOUNDED BY WHITE AND BLACK ACTIVISTS IN 1909 IN RESPONSE TO ONGOING VIOLENCE AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE.

TODAY, THE NAACP HAS MORE THAN 2000 CHAPTERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

SINCE 2010, JIM VINCENT HAS BEEN LEADING THE PROVIDENCE BRANCH.

WE SAT DOWN WITH JIM ON A SNOWY FEBRUARY DAY TO DISCUSS HOW HIS CHILDHOOD SHAPED HIS CAREER AND WHAT IT HAS BEEN LIKE TO HELP LEAD DURING A PIVOTAL TIME.

JIM: ONE DAY YOU ARE LIVING HAPPILY, GOING TO SCHOOL, THOSE KIND OF THINGS, THEN SOMEBODY KNOCKS ON YOUR DOOR AND SAYS HE WILL HAVE TO MOVE.

THEY ARE TEARING YOUR BLOCK DOWN.

IT IS IMMINENT DOMAIN.

MICHELLE: JIM VINCENT GREW UP ON THE SOUTH END OF BOSTON CAN THE YOUNGEST OF FOUR SIBLINGS.

HIS PARENTS WERE IMMIGRANTS.

WHEN HE WAS A TEENAGER, HIS NEIGHBORHOOD WAS TORN DOWN AS PART OF AN URBAN RENEWAL PROJECT.

THAT KNOCK ON THE DOOR WOULD HAVE A PROFOUND IMPACT ON HIS LIFE.

JIM: WE DIDN'T HAVE POWER AT THE TIME.

WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT OUR OPTIONS WERE OTHER THAN TO MOVE.

MICHELLE: VINCENT AT HIS FAMILY MAY NOT HAVE HAD ANY POLITICAL CLOUT IN THE 1960'S BUT HE HAS COME A LONG WAY FROM HIS UPBRINGING.

HE HAS BEEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE NAACP'S PROVIDENCE BRANCH, AN UNPAID POSITION MAKING HIM A TRUSTED SOURCE FOR STATE LEADERS ON ISSUES OF RACE AND EQUITY, BUT LONG BEFORE VINCENT WAS LEADING A CIVIL-RIGHTS ORGANIZATION, HE WAS WATCHING THE MOVEMENT UNFOLD.

MICHELLE: YOU CAME OF AGE DURING THE CIVIL-RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

DID YOU REALIZE THE SIGNIFICANCE?

JIM: I DID NOT.

I REMEMBER MARTIN LUTHER KING BEING ASSASSINATED AT 16, THE SADNESS OF THAT, THE RIOTS IN THE SUMMER AFTER THAT, BUT IT DID NOT DAWN ON ME, THE IMPACT TO ME PERSONALLY, UNTIL I WAS BEING CALLED INTO THE PRINCIPAL'S OFFICE TO TALK TO COLLEGE RECRUITERS.

MICHELLE: AS THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT GAINED GROUND, IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS BEGAN ACCEPTING MORE STUDENTS OF COLOR.

HIS SENIOR YEAR OF HIGH SCHOOL, DARTMOUTH COLLEGE MADE VINCENT AN OFFER HE COULDN'T REFUSE.

JIM: HERE I AM AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME AT 17 GETTING THE OPPORTUNITY OF A LIFETIME.

I SAID, WOW, AM I LUCKY.

MY PARENTS ARE IMMIGRANT FROM THE CAPE VERDE ISLANDS, BUT I AM GETTING THE CHANCE TO GO TO ONE OF THE BEST SCHOOLS IN THE COUNTRY ON THE BACK OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

I FELT A PROFOUND SENSE OF HAVING TO GIVE BACK.

MICHELLE: TAKE ME BACK.

IT IS 1969.

YOU ARE A FRESHMAN AT DARTMOUTH.

WHAT IS IT LIKE?

JIM: ALL NUDE FACULTY -- ALL NEW FACULTY AND STAFF.

THERE WAS SOME TENSION.

THEY WERE NOT USED TO HAVING THAT MANY PUBLIC-SCHOOL PEOPLE, PEOPLE FROM CITIES, SO THERE WERE CULTURE CLASHES AND ANXIETY AND WE FOUGHT THROUGH IT.

WE WERE THE FIRST PIONEERS IN TERMS OF BLACK STUDENTS GOING THROUGH THOSE SCHOOLS, SO WE KNEW THAT IF WE DID NOT MAKE IT, THAT OUR LITTLE BROTHERS AND NEPHEWS AND NIECES AND OTHERS WOULD NEVER HAVE A CHANCE.

WE HAD TO SUCCEED.

MICHELLE: FOUR YEARS LATER, VINCENT GRADUATED FROM DARTMOUTH AND WENT ON TO PURSUE A MASTERS DEGREE IN CITY PLANNING.

JIM: I COULD NOT GET A JOB IN PHILADELPHIA.

I WAS GOING TO THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA GRADUATE SCHOOL, SO I DECIDED TO GET A JOB IN BOSTON AT THE SAME AGENCY THAT KNOCKED ON THE DOOR EIGHT YEARS EARLIER THAT SAID YOU HAVE TO FULL CIRCLE.

THEY GAVE ME MY FIRST JOB AND I APPRECIATE IT BECAUSE I SAID NOW I AM GOING TO SENSITIZE THIS AGENCY TO THE PEOPLE THEY ARE AFFECTING AS ONE OF THEM.

MICHELLE: BUT BEING BACK HOME IN BOSTON WAS CHALLENGING FOR VINCENT.

JIM: I REMEMBER GOING UP, FEELING THE RACISM IN BOSTON.

PEOPLE KNEW THAT YOU COULD NOT GO TO CERTAIN NEIGHBORHOODS BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT WELCOME AND YOU WOULD BE CHASED OUT OF THEM.

GOING BACK THERE, I COULD NOT ESCAPE IT.

IT WAS THE 1970'S AND THE 1980'S.

MICHELLE: VINCENT SAYS HE FELT THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN HELD HIM BACK PROFESSIONALLY.

JIM: AND I WAS NOT HAPPY ABOUT IT AND I SAID I WILL CONTINUE TO GIVE BACK, BUT AT SOME POINT, I DON'T WANT TO GROW TO BE AN OLD BITTER MAN IN MY CITY, AT AFTER THE 1980'S, I SAID I WOULD LEAVE.

MICHELLE: BUT MOVING TO THE OCEAN STATE WAS NOT AT THE TOP OF THE LIST.

JIM: I WAS TRYING TO GO TO CHARLOTTE OR ATLANTA BUT I COULD NOT GET ANYTHING.

THE ONLY PLACE THAT OFFERED ME AN OPPORTUNITY WAS PROVIDENCE.

I SAID THIS HAS TO BE A SIGN.

LET ME DO THIS AND SEE WHERE IT TAKES ME.

30 YEARS LATER, IT IS TAKING ME HERE.

>> NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE.

MICHELLE: HERE AND NOW, VINCENT IS WATCHING HIS COUNTRY RECKON WITH RACIAL INJUSTICE, HE SAYS FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, HE FEELS PEOPLE ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO CIVIL-RIGHTS ISSUES.

JIM: I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF AWARENESS NOW IN TERMS OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE ALLIES, SO YOU HAVE SEEN A SURGE IN MEMBERSHIP IN THE NAACP PROVIDENCE BRANCH.

MICHELLE: THERE HAVE BEEN CONVERSATIONS AFTER THE DEATHS OF GEORGE FLOYD, BREONNA TAYLOR AND MORE.

WHAT HAS IT BEEN LIKE TO LEAD A CIVIL-RIGHTS ORGANIZATION DURING THIS TIME?

JIM: INTERESTING TO SAY THE LEAST.

SAD THAT IT TOOK ALL THESE DEATHS TO GET THE ATTENTION OF THE COUNTRY.

THERE ARE ALWAYS PEOPLE WHO CAN EXPLAIN IT AWAY -- YOU KNOW, TRAYVON MARTIN.

EVERY SINGLE CASE WAS EXPLAIN AWAY, BUT YOU COULD NOT EXPLAIN THIS AWAY.

THEY SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT?

THESE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN COMPLAINING HAVE BEEN TELLING US THE TRUTH.

THERE IS POLICE BRUTALITY, PEOPLE GETTING MURDERED.

THIS IS TRUE.

MICHELLE: VINCENT WANTS TO SEE CHANGES LOCALLY IN HOW POLICE OFFICERS ARE DISCIPLINED.

HE RECENTLY SERVED ON A SENATE TASK FORCE THAT EXAMINED THE RHODE ISLAND LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS BILL OF RIGHTS.

THE GROUP RECOMMENDED THAT POLICE CHIEFS BE ALLOWED TO SUSPEND OFFICERS WITHOUT PAY FOR UP TO 14 DAYS.

THEY CURRENTLY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO SO FOR TWO DAYS, BUT VINCENT BELIEVES ON MORE AGGRESSIVE APPROACH SHOULD BE TAKEN.

WHY DO YOU THINK A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER'S BILL OF RIGHTS SHOULD BE ABOLISHED?

JIM: IT HAS GONE TOO FAR IN PROTECTING OFFICERS THAT HAVE DONE WRONGDOING.

IF WHAT HAPPENED IN MINNEAPOLIS HAPPENED IN PROVIDENCE, SOMEONE LIKE GEORGE FLOYD BEING MURDERED, ALL CHIEF CLEMENS IN PROVIDENCE COULD GIVE THE OFFICER IS A TWO DAY UNPAID SUSPENSION.

THAT'S IT.

THERE IS NO CHIEF IN RHODE ISLAND THAT CAN FIRE ANY POLICE OFFICER IN RHODE ISLAND.

MICHELLE: VINCENT IS ALSO FOCUSED ON ADVOCATING FOR ISSUES HE HOPES WILL HELP TACKLE SYSTEMIC RACISM.

JIM: WE TALKED ABOUT A $15 MINIMUM WAGE.

THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

WE TALKED ABOUT SOURCE OF INCOME DISCRIMINATION, WHERE LANDLORDS IN RHODE ISLAND CAN DISCRIMINATE AGAINST SOMEBODY BECAUSE OF THEIR SOURCE OF INCOME.

SAY THEY ARE ON DISABILITY, SOCIAL SECURITY, OR JUST A SECTION EIGHT CERTIFICATE, THEY CAN BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST IN RHODE ISLAND.

THERE'S 14 STATES WHERE YOU CANNOT.

MICHELLE: THROUGHOUT RHODE ISLAND AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY, VINCENT SAYS PEOPLE NEED TO RECKON WITH WHITE PRIVILEGE.

JIM: WE CANNOT HAVE A COUNTRY WHERE IT IS DEMOCRACY FOR WHITE PEOPLE BUT A DICTATORSHIP FOR BLACK PEOPLE.

THAT'S NOT DEMOCRACY.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT EQUALITY, THAT MEANS I HAVE A CHANCE TO COMPETE AGAINST YOU.

THAT IS WHAT EQUALITY AND DEMOCRACY MEANS AND I AM NOT SURE YOU WANT THAT BECAUSE I THINK YOU ENJOY AN UNFAIR AND VANTAGE AND I AM NOT SURE YOU WANT TO GIVE -- AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE AND I AM NOT SURE YOU WANT TO GIVE THAT UP.

WHEN THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD, IT MEANS MY QUALIFICATIONS VERSUS YOURS TO COMPETE.

YOU MIGHT NOT BE COMFORTABLE.

MICHELLE: WHEN YOU LOOK BACK AT 20, WHAT ARE YOU MOST PROUD OF THAT YOU DID WITH YOUR WORK IN THE NAACP?

JIM: OUR PROUDEST MOMENT IS WHEN MARISSA VAUGHN TOOK THE OATH OF OFFICE AS THE FIRST JUSTICE OF COLOR ON THE RHODE ISLAND SUPREME COURT.

WE HAVE NOW MAYBE SEVEN OR EIGHT JUDGES OF COLOR OUT OF 90, APPROXIMATELY.

THAT IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE STATE'S POPULATION.

MICHELLE: HOW IS SOCIETY BETTER SERVED WHEN YOU HAVE MORE JUDGES OF COLOR?

JIM: ONE, IT GIVES THE POPULATIONS OF COLOR MORE CONFIDENCE THAT THERE'S FAIRNESS IN THE SYSTEM BECAUSE THEY SEE THEMSELVES REFLECTED.

SECOND, IT HAS REPRESENTATION.

IT IS THE FACT THAT THESE JUSTICES COLLABORATE.

THEY TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES OF THE DAY.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE THAT CAN BRING THEIR LIFE EXPERIENCE TO THE CONVERSATION, IT WILL HELP MAKE THOSE JUSTICES MAKE A BETTER DECISION.

MICHELLE: VINCENT DREAMS OF THE DAY WHEN THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP IS CLOSED, THE DAY HOMEOWNERSHIP IS A POSSIBILITY FOR ALL BLACK RHODE ISLANDERS, THE DAY WHEN STUDENTS OF COLOR ARE PERFORMING WELL IN PROVIDENCE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THE ROAD TO GET THERE HE SAYS IS A LONG ONE.

JIM: THESE THINGS WILL NOT BE DEALT WITH IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS, COUPLE YEARS, SEVERAL YEARS.

IT WILL TAKE A DECADE OR TWO.

I SEE MYSELF WORKING JUST AS HARD ON THESE ISSUES THEN AS I AM NOW.

MICHELLE: VINCENT IS AS COMMITTED TO HIS VOLUNTEER WORK -- VINCENT IS COMMITTED TO HIS VOLUNTEER WORK WITH THE NAACP ON COLD AND SNOWY DAYS.

HE DOES IT WELL WORKING FULL TIME AS THE COMMUNITY OUTREACH OFFICER FOR THE RHODE ISLAND PUBLIC TRANSIT AUTHORITY.

WHEN HE REFLECTS ON HIS YEARS OF LIFE, HE SAYS HE FEELS PROFOUNDLY BLESSED AND LUCKY.

JIM: THE SYSTEM SAYS ONLY A COUPLE OF YOU CAN MAKE IT.

IT IS BY DESIGN.

I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE IT.

WE DO NOT WANT YOU TO MAKE IT.

YOU ARE NOT PART OF THIS.

THAT IS THE INEQUALITY WE TALK ABOUT.

I THINK ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE AND I SAY I HAVE TO KEEP FIGHTING FOR THEM BECAUSE THEY NEVER HAD A CHANCE.

AS LONG AS I AM ALIVE, I AM FIGHTING FOR THEM.

♪ PAMELA: NEXT, WE GO BACK IN TIME TO THE YEAR 1961 IN PROVIDENCE, WHEN MINISTER AND CIVIL-RIGHTS ACTIVIST MALCOLM X CAME TO THE CAPITAL CITY FOR THE SECOND TIME THAT YEAR.

SOME MONTHS EARLIER, HE HAD SPOKEN TO BROWN UNIVERSITY ABOUT BLACK POWER, BUT THIS TIME, HE SAT DOWN WITH THE LATE JOHN ANDERSON IN A WIDE-RANGING INTERVIEW ABOUT THE NATION OF ISLAM, SLAVERY, AND WELCOME X'S -- AND MALCOLM X'S BELIEFS.

>> CAN YOU TELL US THE PURPOSE OF BEING HERE IN PROVIDENCE?

>> THE MUSLIMS HERE IN AMERICA WHO FOLLOW THE HONORABLE ELIJAH MUHAMMAD HAVE OUR ANNUAL CONVENTION IN CHICAGO EVERY YEAR AND I AM TRAVELING AROUND THE COUNTRY FOR THE PURPOSE OF SEEING THAT THE ROUTES GOING BY CARAVAN ARE ORGANIZED AND INFORMED.

>> IS THERE A MOSQUE IN PROVIDENCE?

>> THERE IS WHERE MEETINGS ARE HELD EVERY THURSDAY AND SUNDAY NIGHT.

>> WE NEVER HEAR ANYTHING FROM THEM.

>> I BELIEVE THE ONLY WAY THE BLACK MAN CAN -- MAN'S CONDITION CAN BE CORRECTED IN AMERICA, POLITICALLY, ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY AND OTHERWISE IS IF WE DO IT OURSELVES.

OUR RELIGION TEACHES US AND GIVES US THE INCENTIVE, INGENUITY, KNOW HOW TO SEPARATE US FROM WHITE SOCIETY AND TRY TO DO FOR OURSELVES IN OUR OWN SOCIETY WHAT THE WHITE MAN HAS DONE FOR HIMSELF IN HIS.

MANY OF THE SO-CALLED NEGRO INTEGRATIONISTS, WHO HAVE LOOKED FORWARD TO THE DAY WHERE THEY CAN MIX, INTERMINGLE WITH WHITES, THINK IT IS OUTRAGEOUS NOW THAT IT APPEARS THEY ARE ABOUT TO MAKE IT INTO THE PROMISED LAND OF INTEGRATION, AS MARTIN LUTHER KING CALLS IT.

THEY THINK WE ARE ALMOST TRADERS TO STEP IN AT THIS POINT AND SAY WE DON'T WANT INTEGRATION.

>> YOU SAY SEPARATION INSTEAD OF SEGREGATION.

CAN THIS BE ACCOMPLISHED?

>> THEY ARE ALREADY SEPARATED.

THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE SECOND-CLASS CITIZENSHIP IS POLITICAL SEPARATION.

THE FACT THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE THE LAST HIRED AND THE FIRST FIRED IS ECONOMIC SEPARATION.

THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE DISCRIMINATION IS SOCIAL SEPARATION.

ALL WE ARE ASKING, SINCE SEPARATION IS PRACTICED ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT PREACHED, WE ASK THAT AMERICA PRACTICE WHAT IT PREACHES OR PREACH WHAT IT PRACTICES.

UP TO NOW, THE WHITE COMMUNITY IS THE SOLE BENEFACTOR OF THE FORM OF SEGREGATION THAT EXISTS.

WE WANT IT SEPARATE SO THAT THE BLACK MAN CAN BE BENEFITED AS WELL AS THE WHITE.

WE THINK IT WILL SOLVE THE RACE PROBLEM.

THIS IS JUST.

IT DOESN'T INVOLVE HYPOCRISY.

IT IS RECOGNIZING THE FACTS AS THEY ARE.

THAT'S DAILY WAY TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

>> TOTAL SEPARATION TO THE POINT WHERE YOU MIGHT WANT YOUR OWN STATE?

>> WE FOLLOW THE HONORABLE ELIJAH MOHAMMED AND THE THOUGHT THAT TOTAL SEPARATION IS THE ONLY WAY TO SOLVE THE RACE PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> DO YOU SPEAK AT ALL ON ANYTHING OF A POLITICAL NATURE?

>> IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU MEAN BY POLITICS.

WE ARE A RELIGIOUS GROUP.

WE ARE RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED.

BUT IN OUR RELIGION, WE ARE TAUGHT THAT WE SHOULD HAVE FREEDOM, JUSTICE AND EQUALITY.

SOME PEOPLE REFER TO FREEDOM, JUSTICE AND EQUALITY AS A POLITICAL CATEGORY, BUT JUST AS MOSES IN THE BIBLE, HIS ENTIRE MESSAGE WAS A MESSAGE OF SEPARATION AND FREEDOM FOR HIS PEOPLE, AND HE WAS SEEKING A LAND FOR HIS PEOPLE.

MOSES NOT REPRESENTED BY ANYONE OTHER THAN AS A RELIGIOUS LEADER.

HE IS NEVER CALLED A POLITICAL LEADER.

OUR PEOPLE TODAY IN AMERICA ARE IN THE SAME CONDITION THAT MOSES FOUND HIS PEOPLE IN.

ELIJAH MOHAMMED IS A MODERN COUNTERPART OF MOSES AMONG US.

WE LOOK UPON HIM AS A MAN OF GOD, A MESSENGER OF GOD AND A RELIGIOUS MAN IN THE SAME CATEGORY AND AT THE SAME LEVEL WITH MOSES.

>> I WAS THINKING BASICALLY OF THE PRESENT SITUATION AND ITS POLITICAL OVERTONES IN MANY RESPECTS.

ANY COMMENT ON THE SITUATION?

>> THE CONGO PROBLEM, THE ANGOLA PROBLEM AND THE ALGERIA PROBLEM, ALL OF THESE ARE DISCUSSED IN THE UNITED NATIONS.

RACE IS AT THE BOTTOM OF ALL, AND IT IS A PROBLEM YOU CANNOT IGNORE HERE IN AMERICA, AND IF WE AS MUSLIMS CANNOT IGNORE IT IN AMERICA, BECAUSE AS THESE COUNTRIES IN AFRICA GAIN INDEPENDENCE AND RISE, IT IS CAUSING A FALL OF EUROPEAN NATIONS.

AS THEY BECOME STRONGER ECONOMICALLY, THE EUROPEAN NATIONS BECOME WEAKER ECONOMICALLY.

IT HAS AN ASSOCIATED -- IT HAS NECESSITATED CREATING THIS COMMON MARKET IN EUROPE.

THE NEED WAS CREATED BY THE FREEDOM AND INDEPENDENCE OF THE AFRICAN AND ASIAN NATIONS, SO ALTHOUGH ISLAM IS OUR RELIGION AND WE ARE RELIGIOUSLY MOTIVATED, WE CAN NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF THE FACT THAT RACE IS PLAYING NOT ONLY HERE IN AMERICA BUT ALSO ON A WORLDWIDE, INTERNATIONAL BASIS.

>> YOU HAPPEN TO MENTION THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE LAST APRIL THAT YOUR GROUP WAS NOT A VIOLENT GROUP, BUT YOU WENT ON FROM THERE.

COULD YOU REPEAT THIS?

>> WE ARE NOT A VIOLENT GROUP IN THIS SENSE.

ELIJAHMUHAMMAD TEACHESUS NEVER TO BE THE AGGRESSOR.

ANDTO ALWAYS RESPECT AND RECOGNIZE AND OBEY LAWAND TO BE WE ARE EVER ATTACKED, WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND OURSELVES.

RATHER THAN ANY ACT OF VIOLENCE THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS INVOLVED IN HAS ALWAYS BEEN A REACTION TO AN AGGRESSIVE ACT COMMITTED AGAINST US.

WE DON'T ENDORSE PASSIVE RESISTANCE, NONVIOLENCE, ANY KIND OF PEACEFUL SUFFERING.

WE DON'T ENDORSE ANYTHING ADVOCATED BY MARTIN LUTHER KING THAT HAS A TENDENCY TO STRIP AND DISHONOR PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY AT A TIME WHEN THE SEGREGATIONISTS IN THE SOUTH ARE NOT DISARMED.

WE THICK IT IS WRONG TO TEACH BLACK PEOPLE IN AMERICA TO BE NONVIOLENT AT A TIME WHEN NO ONE IS TEACHING THE WHITE MAN IN AMERICA TO BE NONVIOLENT.

>> [INDISCERNIBLE] >> NOT TOO RECENT, BUT WE HAD A SITUATION IN MUNRO, LOUISIANA, AT OUR MOSQUE, A RELIGIOUS SERVICES WERE INVADED BY POLICE, WHO WERE TRYING TO STOP THE SPREAD OF ISLAM IN RURAL LOUISIANA BY FRIGHTENING THE SO-CALLED NEGROES IN THE AREA.

A FIGHT FOLLOWED AND ALTHOUGH THE MUSLIMS WHO FOLLOW THE HONORABLE ELIJAH MOHAMMED DON'T BELIEVE IN CARRYING ANY ARMS WHATSOEVER, THE POLICE ILLEGALLY AND IN JUSTLY AND IMMORALLY INVADED OUR SERVICES.

>> ANTI-SLAVERY BY DUMONT.

CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THIS?

>> IT WAS AUTHORED BY A UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN PROFESSOR, PUBLISHED BY THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN PRESS.

IT COSTS $20.

IN MY OPINION, EVERY WHITE PERSON IN AMERICA AND LACK PERSON AND AMERICA SHOULD -- AND A BLACK PERSON IN AMERICA SHOULD READ THIS BOOK.

THEY WILL GET A SENSE OF THE MACHINERY THAT WAS USED -- ACCOMPLISHMENTS, HIS CIVILIZATION, AND RELEGATED TO THE ROLE OF AN ANIMAL.

IT WILL SPELL OUT THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE SLAVE TRADER AND SLAVE MASTER, WHICH IS PRIMARILY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RACE PROBLEM IN AMERICA TODAY.

ONE OF THE BEST STATEMENTS IN THE BOOK IS THAT THIS PROFESSOR OR SCIENTIST POINTS OUT THAT SECOND-CLASS CITIZENSHIP IS NOTHING BUT A MODERN VERSION OF SLAVERY, WHICH MEANS THAT SLAVERY STILL EXISTS ACCORDING TO HIS DEFINITION.

20 MILLION BLACK PEOPLE IN AMERICA ARE STILL SLAVES.

THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION AND THE CIVIL WAR WERE FOUGHT FOR NOTHING.

BECAUSE IT WAS APPROACHED THAT DAY IN A HYPOCRITICAL WAY, ALTHOUGH LINCOLN WAS FACED WITH A PROBLEM, ALL THE PRESIDENTS SINCE HIM, INCLUDING KENNEDY TODAY, FACED THE SAME PROBLEM.

NO HONEST EFFORT HAS BEEN MADE TO SOLVE IT, ESPECIALLY BY THE POLITICIANS.

♪ PAMELA: WITH A LARGE NUMBER OF RACIAL INCIDENTS IN 2020, INCLUDING THE DEATHS OF GEORGE FLOYD AND BREONNA TAYLOR AT THE HANDS OF POLICE OFFICERS, A RECKONING HAS BEEN TAKING PLACE AS PEOPLE QUESTION ISSUES OF DISPARITY AND INEQUALITY.

LAST FEBRUARY, IN OUR CONTINUING SERIES KIDS WANT TO KNOW, STUDENTS ASKED CARLON HOWARD, CHIEF EQUITY OFFICER AT AN INSTITUTE IN PROVIDENCE, ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM AND WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO END IT.

>> MY QUESTION FOR YOU IS WHAT POLICIES CAN BE PUT INTO PLACE TO CHANGE THE DYNAMIC OF RACIAL BIAS HAPPENING IN SCHOOLS ALL OVER?

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR QUESTION.

WHEN I THINK ABOUT SOLUTIONS TO ADDRESS SYSTEMIC RACISM IN THE EDUCATION SPACE, I THINK ABOUT HOW DO WE BUILD A MORE DIVERSE PATHWAY INTO THE EDUCATION PROFESSION NOT JUST AS TEACHERS BUT ACROSS THE GAMUT, SO PRINCIPALS, POLICYMAKERS, IT'S -- POLICYMAKERS, ETC.

BECAUSE IF YOU SEE MORE DIVERSITY, AS WE GET MORE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES, MORE PEOPLE WHO COME FROM DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES, WE WILL SEE, BY THE SHEER ACT OF EXPOSURE, OVER TIME, MANY OF THOSE PREJUDICES AND BIASES CAN BE ADDRESSED.

THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT'S THE ONLY SOLUTION BUT JUST ONE OPPORTUNITY, AND MUCH OF THAT STARTS WITH CULTIVATING AN INTEREST IN YOUNG PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF AS WELL AS LEVERAGING THE GREAT FOLKS IN OUR COMMUNITIES TO BECOME THE LEADERS IN CLASSROOMS AT AFTERSCHOOL PROGRAMS, BEFORE SCHOOL PROGRAMS, ADDING A CRITICAL PERSPECTIVE THAT'S OFTEN MISSING FROM THE CONVERSATION.

>> HI.

I AM A SENIOR.

THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR YOU IS, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE -- WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT RACISM AGAINST ASIAN PEOPLE IS SO NORMALIZED IN TODAY'S SOCIETY?

CARLON: GREAT QUESTION.

THANK YOU FOR SHARING.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF ASIAN AMERICANS IN OUR COUNTRY, THEY HAVE OFTEN BEEN OVERLOOKED IN TERMS OF THE RACIST ACTS OF VIOLENCE AND PREJUDICE THAT THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED AS A GROUP.

WHEN YOU THING ABOUT WHY THERE'S A CONTINUED PERPETUATION AND WHY IT IS SO OFTEN OVERLOOKED, YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE STEREOTYPE OF THE MODEL MINORITY.

FOR MANY ASIAN AMERICANS, THEY'VE BEEN LABELED AS A MODEL MINORITY NOT BECAUSE OF ANYTHING THAT THEY NECESSARILY SAID OR DID BUT BECAUSE THIS LABEL, THIS STEREOTYPE WAS WEAPONIZED AS A WAY TO COMPARE OTHER GROUPS, BLACK, BROWN GROUPS AND SAY, WHY CAN'T YOU BE LIKE ASIAN AMERICANS?

IT WAS NOT USED IN A WAY TO UPLIFT OR HIGHLIGHT ANYTHING THAT ASIAN AMERICANS WERE DOING AS IT WAS -- AS MUCH AS IT WAS TO TEAR DOWN BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES, AND BECAUSE OF THIS STEREOTYPE, WE HAVE SEEN PEOPLE SAY, THEY ARE GOOD.

THEY ARE DOING WELL.

THERE'S NO REASON TO WORRY ABOUT RACISM AGAINST THAT GROUP.

WE ARE NOT SEEING -- AND WE ARE SEEING HOW THAT IS BEING PERPETUATED TODAY WITH THE INCREASED INCIDENTS OF RACIALIZED VIOLENCE.

>> MY QUESTION FOR YOU IS, CONSIDERING SYSTEMATIC RACISM IS STILL A RISING ISSUE, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS APPROPRIATE AND ADDRESSING -- IN ADDRESSING EQUITY SO WE CAN ACHIEVE A SENSE OF EQUALITY?

>> SYSTEMIC RACISM HAS ITS ROOTS BOTH IN INTERPERSONAL AND STATE SANCTIONED VIOLENCE.

THAT'S THE REASON IT IS SO PERSISTENT.

THE SOLUTION OR APPROACH I BELIEVE IS MOST EFFECTIVE IS A POLITICAL FRAMEWORK CALLED TRANSFORMATIVE JUSTICE.

TRANSFORMATIVE JUSTICE ESSENTIALLY LOOKS AT THE ISSUES AND LEVERAGES THE COMMUNITY TO BOTH SUSTAIN AND CREATE SOLUTIONS TO MANY OF THE ISSUES WE SEE PLAGUING OUR COMMUNITIES.

AND IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY RELY ON STATE OR GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION, BUT RATHER IS A GROUND-UP APPROACH WHERE THE PEOPLE DRIVE THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT THESE ISSUES, AND WHAT IS EVEN GREATER TO ME ABOUT IT IS NOT ONLY DOES IT THEORETICALLY ADDRESS THE ROOT PROBLEMS OF THE ISSUE IN THIS CASE OF SYSTEMIC RACISM BUT ALSO PROPOSES NEW SOLUTIONS AS WE MOVE FORWARD.

MICHELLE: OUR THANKS TO CARLON HOWARD AND THE STUDENTS OF THE HIGH SCHOOL.

I AM MICHELLE SAN MIGUEL.

PAMELA: AND I AM PAMELA WATTS.

WE WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH ANOTHER EDITION OF RHODE ISLAND PBS WEEKLY.

♪