CATHLEEN: Matt, what's one piece of advice you have about aging?

MATT: Life's about new experiences, not just remembering the old experiences.

CATHLEEN: That's just the beginning.

Stay tuned for more.

♪ CATHLEEN: I'm Cathleen Toomey, host of Seniority Authority, where we get smarter about growing older.

♪ Let's be honest.

How many of us feel like our homes are bursting at the seams?

You're not alone.

In the last 50 years, the size of the average American home has nearly doubled.

And with online shopping just a click away, it's no surprise we're swimming in stuff.

No wonder downsizing is such a hot topic.

Matt Paxton, we are so excited to have you here.

As an Emmy-nominated creator, bestselling author, and host of Hoarders and Filthy Fortunes, you've helped thousands of people navigate letting go.

Before we dive in, let's take a look at one couple that made a bold move.

For Mary Ellen and Richard, downsizing opened the door to something new.

Let's take a look.

MARY ELLEN: We lived in a beautiful home.

We had a nice piece of property that we could enjoy the outdoors.

Our home was large enough that we got to enjoy our family.

It was nice.

We really loved it.

RICHARD: When you get to the point where the family starts leaving for school and the kids get older, you start thinking of other things.

We decided we need to shift from the large, beautiful place that we had to a smaller place that was more conducive to where we were going.

The time of my tying a flashlight to a lawn mower to mow the lawn when I got home from work was over.

Doing that kind of yard work got to be really tedious.

We had to hire more and more people to take care of more and more things.

I had reached the point that we'd had a good time there.

The house was hollow without all the noise in it, and that encouraged us to look more intensely.

It's just a requirement that you spend time looking ahead of time before it becomes an emergency.

We could not have done this if we had waited another two years.

We also understood, because we had been involved in it with other family members, that it's a big job, and we wanted to do it before we were too old to do it.

♪ It’s just right not to have an abundance.

You know, I don't need two sets of flatware.

I don't need, you know, five sets of glasses.

I don't need those things.

And to just have the basic things that you really want and that you love; it's enough.

RICHARD: I’m a collector.

I've collected things for 70 years.

And you have to bring some things with you, but if you can condense the means of getting to whatever end you're dealing with, you're going to be able to pack it in a bag rather than to use a truck to do it.

I have an expression for all of this, and it goes through different stages of my life: I've had a good run.

When I give something up if I have that feeling I'm done with it.

I'm okay with it.

MARY ELLEN: Once we started working on it and seeing the results of it, we kind of liked it.

You know, it wasn't like we were missing this stuff.

It was like, Wow!

Why did we have that there?

Did we really need that?

And it was freeing.

It was like we felt lighter.

So, being here is a great feeling and continuing with life and then knowing that someday, when we're gone, we are not messing up someone else's life... that they're going to be able to not have to worry.

There'll be some things, but overall, it's going to be minor.

And that's a good feeling.

RICHARD: When you're in a pristine park, you want to leave nothing but your footprints.

CATHLEEN: This story is not new to you.

You've been helping people downsize for 25 years.

Tell me, in your opinion, what makes letting go of stuff so hard?

MATT: The main reason is that it brings us happiness and it brings us joy, and we look for happiness and self-worth in our stuff.

You know, when you've got a great life, you have a lot of happiness and joy attached to that stuff.

And that's why we always struggle with the dining room.

I mean, that's where our families were created.

It's where people, you know it's where you started your family.

It's where you had conversations with all the loved ones that are no longer here.

I mean, it's such an important room.

Your value system and your belief of family was created in a home.

And so, yeah, when you got to let go of that kind of stuff, that's really, really hard because you're not just looking at stuff, you're looking at your grandmother's stuff, your mom's stuff, your grandfather's stuff.

You're looking at the chair you sat in the time you found out you were going to be the first woman to go to college in your family.

I mean, it's heavy; it's emotional.

It's not just stuff.

CATHLEEN: That's a really good point.

So, this is very much a part of your life and a part of your identity.

MATT: Yeah.

I'm a practicing minimalist.

I mean, I literally you know, I have seven kids and I have no stuff.

And so for us, we really made the commitment five years ago to focus on life, to focus on living, to focus on food, and family time.

And that's where we put all of our money and all of our energy.

For us, less stuff means less time keeping up with it, and equals you know, more time together.

And I thought Richard said that best.

I mean, in that clip, he said, you know, I didn't want to spend my days doing yard work.

And that's okay.

I mean, when he did do the yard work, it served him.

There was a time when sitting on that lawn mower was the greatest feeling in the world, and now it is a time that sitting on the couch is a better feeling with his grandkids.

You know, stuff serves you at different points in your life.

I think the key here is knowing when you've abandoned one season and you're entering another.

CATHLEEN: I love that philosophy that stuff either serves you or doesn't serve you, and that we should think about this from a seasonal standpoint, like, maybe we can do better things with our time than mow the lawn; hang out with our grandkids or our kids.

MATT: Yeah.

I mean, I found my high school letterman's jacket the other day in the attic, and that was man, at one point in my life, it identified who I was!

CATHLEEN: I bet!

MATT: And it actually put a brand on someone that wore it.

I mean, my girlfriend wore that and she was Matt Paxton’s girlfriend, and it proved that I existed.

It proved that I mattered.

And, you know, 30 years later, she put it on and it's just a ratty piece of clothing that doesn't mean anything.

And that's okay.

I think the key here is that it's okay.

It doesn't mean you have to keep something forever to enjoy that moment.

CATHLEEN: Well, I think you address that beautifully in your book, Keep the memories, lose the stuff.

What are the most common excuses people give for not decluttering and downsizing?

What are the barriers to that and how do you respond?

I can't tell you how many clients I've met where they're ready to move into a new community, have a much better light closer to friends, closer to family, closer to better health care, better food, everything.

And they’re just like, I'm too busy to downsize.

So, they stay, you know, a less positive environment just because they're justifying all their stuff.

What's really happening is they don't want to let go of it.

It's too hard.

They don't want that to attack all the memories.

And that's okay.

And so, my book is really about, Hey, how do I really embrace all these past memories, celebrate them, and then leave space to move forward?

I mean, downsizing is not about getting rid of everything.

Downsizing is about getting rid of the stuff that doesn't matter, so you can make space for the stuff that does.

CATHLEEN: And to your point, I think a lot of people refuse to deal with their stuff, so their stuff is controlling them.

MATT: I can’t tell you how many times people say to me, I'm ready to move, but I got all my kids mediocre art from middle school.

And I'm like, How old is your son?

He's like, Oh, he's 47.

So, you have your 47-year-old child's artwork from seventh grade, and that's why you're not living in a better community?

Yeah, that makes total sense.

I mean, we use humor a lot for this exact reason because we're letting stuff control us, and that's just silly.

I mean, stuff is just supposed to be a part of life to help you enjoy living.

It's not supposed to be your life.

CATHLEEN: And it's not supposed to define you either.

Downsizing in order to move for a lot of people, they want to move, so they have to downsize, but it can feel overwhelming.

So, where do you recommend that people start in this process?

MATT: I thought Richard actually said it best.

You got to know where you're going first, and you've got to decide what your next move is.

Where are you going?

Understand the layout.

Understand the size.

I mean, you cannot pack for vacation if you don't know if you go to the beach or the mountains.

Okay, you need to know where you're going.

Understand that destination.

And he probably said it best.

He said, I'd rather be there you know, We're going to years early, not two years late.

And I think the best way I’ve heard that said is that I'd rather make the decision five years too soon than five minutes too late.

And I've seen so many of my clients just wait, wait, and wait, and then it's no longer in their hands.

They can't make the choice on their own.

So, really make that decision.

If you're thinking about it at all, make that decision now.

I like to take a year to downsize.

If you can, it should take a year.

I mean, for most people listening, you've been in your home 25 to 30 years.

You created a lot of memories, a lot of family, a lot of good times, a lot of bad times, but it all happened in this home.

You can't knock it out in a three-day holiday weekend, right?

I want you to take a year to do it right.

And the thing I do first is I create a legacy list.

And a legacy list is a list of the top five things that matter most in your family.

The five items in your home if your house burned down, these are the five items you'd want to get out; these are the most important items in your home.

And by doing that, you define the things that matter most to you.

And then you're going to tell those stories.

And those stories are the reason you're holding on to these items.

It's, you know, your grandfather's chair, your dad's pipe, your mom's cookbook.

Whatever it is, you're going to start to tell the stories of these people.

And what happens is, when you define the legacy list and then you share the legacy list, you're actually defining what matters to you, what your family history is, what your ethics are, what your morals are, who matters to you.

You start to share these items and these stories.

And then what happens is you don't mind let go of the stuff that doesn't matter.

Like, you're not holding on to your father's National Geographic complete section wrapped in twine in the garage.

You're not holding on to your grandfather's old undershirts that were saved because they were good rags.

You're not holding on to the Folger’s coffee cans filled with nails and assorted screws because you've already celebrated the people that those items represent.

And that is how I get started in downsizing.

Now, people always want to say, Well, what room do I start in?

I don't care.

I want you to create that legacy list first because you're going to share the stories that matter, and then you start to get rid of the stuff that doesn't matter.

CATHLEEN: I love that because the legacy list is your gateway to storytelling.

It's your gateway to telling people who you are, what you've been a part of, and what your essence is.

And I also love the fact that you said only five items, so it can't be a closet full of clothes or a garage full of rusty tools.

MATT: The other day, my 12-year- old son said, Dad, I read that the average man only lives to 78.

I said, Okay.

I'm not sure about that number, but okay.

And he goes, Well, you're 50 this year.

How does it feel to be entering the last third of your life?

And I said, I'm just getting started at 50!

Like, I'm really enjoying life.

But what he did make me do is really say, Okay, I want to prioritize my time here.

Do we really want to spend the next five years of our life when the reality is we have a limited time?

You know, do we really want to spend it going through pictures from, you know, a slide carousel from Acapulco in 1981?

[Cathleen chuckles] No, I want to go to Acapulco with my wife and make new memories.

I mean, that's the point here, right?

So, like, I can't tell you how many of my clients will spend the next I'll argue the best, healthiest five years of the rest of your life going through stuff that didn't really matter.

Like, I want you spending enough time to celebrate those 5 to 10 items that matter most and celebrate the people that matter to you.

But you've still got the best time of your life ahead of you to go enjoy and make more memories.

And that is what living is about.

That is what moving on to new communities is about.

It’s not about just remembering the past.

It's about making space for the future.

CATHLEEN: Yeah, yeah, that is perfect.

And it's not about staying in your home and cultivating your stuff.

It is about moving forward.

Well, your Lladró collection is not going to love you, right?

Your Lladrós and your Beanie Babies are not going to give you new memories.

They're just memories from the past.

And so, I just really stress to people like I don't care what you paid for it.

I don't care if you think your kids want it or not.

Like, you have to limit your time because your time is your best currency.

That's what matters most at this point.

You know, before 50, our currency was cash and money.

But after 50, our currency should be time.

That is what matters most.

And so, I really want to make sure, is that this item that you're looking at I don’t care what it is is this item worth ten minutes of your time?

CATHLEEN: That's a great way of explaining that.

And I do agree, nobody wants your Hummels or your Lladró or a lot of what you have.

And you've worked with so many people.

What's a transformation process like when they finally let go of excess?

I think a lot of people are looking at this and nodding, but they still are holding on to things.

What happens when they let go?

MATT: Freedom!

Unbelievable freedom!

And no one has ever asked me to move them back.

Once you get to where you're going once you get to your next stage of life I promise you, you will not need the stuff that you brought because you have a new life.

You're doing new things.

And it's just I mean, mathematically, no one has ever asked me to move them back.

I cannot stress that stat enough.

CATHLEEN: That's very impressive in 25 years.

In your experience, what are the things worth keeping and what do you think people feel is valuable, but really isn't?

MATT: I had a really crazy shoe collection that mattered so much to me a few years ago.

I thought it was the coolest thing in the world.

And all my kids would tell me how they were going to wear my shoes someday.

So, it was a fun thing I did with my kids, you know, my little Nike's.

And all of a sudden I don't know what happened in the last two years, they've all passed me in shoe size.

And so, my young kids that are like 12, 13, 14 years old, they're all bigger than me.

And so, we don't have that connection because they can't fit into my shoes.

And all of a sudden, something that mattered so much to me, a few years ago just doesn't really matter anymore.

And that's okay because I was putting a number value on it, and really what was valuable to me was that time with my kids.

I really, really stress, create your legacy list, define what’s really important to you, share their stories.

Because when you share those stories, you'll find out what your kids actually do and don't want.

Most people come to my classes and they say, Oh, nobody wants my stuff.

But what we found out is over the last 20 years, people do want your stuff, they just don't want the stuff you want them to want.

Like, they don't want grandma's China.

But you know what they do want?

They want grandma's old dresses.

They want grandma's old fur coat.

They want all of grandma’s old purses.

They do want your stuff.

They do care about you.

They do value the time they've had with you.

Their legacy list is different than yours.

The reason you love your your mother's China is because every single holiday you ever had was using that China.

But your kids, their family time was going to the river, to the beach, or going to a practice or a game.

I mean, they had different places for that family time, so their definition of love is different than yours.

Neither are right or wrong.

They're just different.

CATHLEEN: That's a good point, Matt.

But if you get stuck with the thought of where to begin, it can also help to hire a downsizing expert like we'll see in the next clip with Joe.

♪ JOE: 22 years ago, my sisters and I moved my mom from her longtime home to an assisted living community.

It was a difficult time in her life, and she was really ready for a change.

And to see someone at 80 years old have a whole new circle of friends... And she had a brand new life.

I didn't realize how much I liked the business of assisted living until I saw her come out the other side of it.

♪ I was 20 years into a financial services career, and I said, At 55, I'm going to retire and I'm going to do something.

And through a friend of my niece’s discovered Senior Move Management.

And I have been able to experience with clients the same thing that I experienced with my mom.

We work with older adults in transitioning from their longtime homes to their next chapter, and that could be anything from aging in place, going from a home to a condo, going to a continuing care retirement community.

Well, first of all, we always refer to it as rightsizing because what's right for me is absolutely not right for you, and we don't think that there's a prescribed method.

I like the term rightsizing because it is individual, right?

Downsizing just sounds like, Get rid of, get rid of, get rid of.

Rightsizing is, Let's make it right.

Let's make your space full of those things that make your life fulfilled and happy.

And what's right for what you do.

You have to pay reverence to the client and pay reverence to their stuff, right?

And if you don't do that, you're never going to gain their trust, and they're not going to be able to even begin taking a look at, How do I parse this down?

So, that's sort of the first step in doing that.

Sometimes, we say, If these are really important to you and you do want them, you can use them in your new space.

Here's your floor plan.

Where are we going to store them, and what else are you going to be sacrificing in order to bring that into your new space?

I say oftentimes, You can't boil the ocean.

It's impossible to boil the ocean.

And I think it's akin to going to the basement right to the bottom of the basement steps looking at a sea of stuff, and saying, How am I ever going to get through this?

Right?

And you turn around, you walk up the stairs, shut the door, and forget about it.

So, we say to clients, Let's look at the things that, right now, you're just not using and you know you will never use again.

Like, little by little, in manageable bites, people are making progress.

They can see that they're getting, you know, to the other side.

♪ I know moving is one of the most difficult things we do in our lives.

Imagine doing it at 70, 80, 90 years old.

So, that's the most rewarding and satisfying part of that process to see that someone went from all of this stuff thinking, I'm never going to be able to do it.

And we say, Please, just trust the process.

And when they do and clients have said, you know, I can't believe you did it all, or say that it's perfect.

It's really a tremendous thing.

It's something I never got when I worked in corporate America for all those years.

CATHLEEN: Well, Joe is a big fan of yours, Matt, and it's clear that the two of you share the same philosophy and use different words.

Does that rightsizing that Joe is referring to resonate with you?

MATT: Absolutely.

I mean, you can use either term, but the spirit that he's bringing to that house is absolutely the positive way and the right way to do it.

He's right.

It's the best I mean, I've been doing this twenty-five years.

It's the best job in the world.

You know, I get to help people all day, and then they give you a check, and then they give you a big hug.

You know, you said it earlier, the transformation.

I mean, that's really what Joe's talking about.

I mean, we get to see the client go through this transformation, and we get to see them help themselves, and then we get to see them be proud of themselves and achieve something.

And it's a very spiritual thing.

I mean, it's really an amazing thing because we're in your home for like two weeks, three weeks sometimes, and we get to hear all your stories.

I mean, when I started doing this, I would ask women, you know, What did you do during the war?

And we were talking about, What was your job during World War Two?

And now I get to ask, you know, Did you go to Woodstock?

And two entirely different questions, but two amazing answers either way, you know?

And that's how you start the first ten minutes of a job.

And then you get to know them for two weeks.

And so, you hear triumphs, you hear tragedy, you hear it all.

But then, at the end of the day, you see this person believe in themselves, and you see them take this huge leap.

And they take the leap and they move, and that is why people are happy.

It's much more of a positive, emotional journey.

And it's amazing.

I can see why someone like Joe loves to do it.

CATHLEEN: I love that people are transformed and that they feel better after this, because I think people think about decluttering as being emotional and exhausting, and it is emotional and exhausting.

What have you found are ways to help someone stay motivated through the process?

MATT: The first thing is to really understand your Why?

We know where you're going to move, but your Why?

is what keeps you motivated, right?

Are you moving there for better health care?

Are you moving there to be closer to family, being closer to just friends, or better food?

Like, what's your reason?

And you really got to stick to your reason.

And I actually put it on a piece of paper and I put it on the wall in every room of my client, so if they're just trying to get closer to the grandkids, I write the word grandkids.

Then, I put it up there and I make myself look at that every day.

I also start really small.

I cannot stress, the smaller the better.

Ten minutes a night, create a you know, 1 ft x 1 ft area.

Don't start somewhere emotionally.

Like, if you're a widow, don’t start in your husband’s closet.

That's heavy.

Like, that's a hard time and place.

I want you to start somewhere that doesn't matter; start in the garage.

So, the key here is really staying true to your mission.

Staying true to your goal like your Why?

And then starting really small.

And that will leave you in a place to succeed and, most importantly, not quit.

CATHLEEN: Matt, why do we have so much stuff?

Have consumer purchasing habits changed in the last 50 years?

And do you have any good recommendations, because you are a minimalist, on how the rest of us can curb our enthusiasm for new stuff?

MATT: I love this question.

We got here because America is a consumer society, And since World War Two historically, you know, we came home from World War Two, we bought houses on the GI Bill, we built the suburbs, we built schools, we built communities, we built churches, and Sears sold us everything.

All right.

Okay.

Short answer: we, literally, over the last 80 years, we built what we all know as community in America.

And so, we are addicted to it, right?

Our entire society is addicted to it.

And we want to prove to people we've made it.

We have made it.

We are here.

Look at my $200 shoes.

Look at my China set Look at it all.

And it's really kind of silly.

And at the end of the day, you don't need the stuff to prove that you matter.

You don't need the stuff to prove you exist.

And it has gotten extremely easy.

So when you ask how we curb this enthusiasm I mean, when I buy something online, I don't even know what card it's on.

Right?

I don't even know.

And so, I've really tried to push back to the way our grandparents did it, which was they paid cash.

They went out, they worked hard, they saved and they saved and they saved, and they paid cash for something And so, believe me, I tell all my clients, No matter where you’re buying something, make sure you're using your debit card, not your credit.

You got to make sure you got enough cash for it because we buy things not knowing how we paid for it.

And then really, Am I going to use it in the next month?

If I'm not going to use it in the next month or I'm not going to give it away as a gift in the next month, do I really need to make that purchase?

And so, I think the biggest filter for me is, When am I going to use it?

How am I going to pay for it?

And then really, most importantly, Is this for my fantasy life or my real life?

And I think that's the biggest filter, right?

Is this for my real life or my fantasy life?

And I mean, I could buy clothes size 30.

They're not going to fit me anymore.

You know what?

I would never buy a pair of jeans that are size 30 because I'm a 36.

So, why do I have a size 30 pair of jeans in my closet?

CATHLEEN: That's a really good point.

MATT: I surely wouldn’t buy a pair, so why in the world am I keeping a pair, right?

And so, I get very realistic on, What's my fantasy life?

What's my real life?

CATHLEEN: That is very good advice.

For somebody who's feeling stuck, what's one small, simple step they can take today to get started.

MATT: Try one item.

Just start small.

One item.

If you’re not sure if you can get rid of it or not, put it in a box, put it in your garage, and see how your life is for a week without that item.

You didn't throw it away yet, you just put it in the garage.

But it's no longer in your house.

And how different is your life?

You're going to find very quickly it's not that different at all.

The goal here is to see how you manage how you live without your stuff.

Believe it or not, you're going to find out pretty quickly you don't really need much of it at all.

I mean, I'll say this thousand times, my clients that move into bigger communities, they're so busy they do not have time to worry about their stuff.

And that is what rightsizing is about.

CATHLEEN: That is exactly, exactly right.

I want to thank you so much, Matt, for joining us today and for sharing your wisdom.

This has been such an amazing conversation.

To learn more about Matt's work and keep the conversation going, visit: Until next time, stay curious and keep thriving.

♪