Rob: Coming up next on Rob at Home, a judge on a journey... Judge Tim Fall shares the trial of his life: his battle with mental illness.

Tim: I'm willing to talk about it because mental health is so important, and the stigma it's been under has been the worst thing possible.

Rob: Plus, a message of hope, if you or someone you love is in the depths of despair.

Tim: That, uh, moment, which may be a very long period of time- it can certainly feel that way- is not permanent.

It is not forever.

There is a another moment that will follow, uh, and it will be a better one.

Things do get better.

Rob: To people who are struggling, do not be afraid to tell your story.

It will set you free.

Superior Court Judge Tim Fall on finding joy, hope, and healing on Rob at Home.

♪♪ Annc: And now, Rob on the Road, exploring Northern California.

Rob: Judge Tim Fall joins us now, on Rob at Home.

It is so good to see you, Judge.

Thank you for joining us.

Tim: Well, I really appreciate you inviting me along, uh, for the, uh, the conversation you're- even though we're not taking a journey together.

You're no- not doing Rob on the Road at the moment.

Uh, home is fine, though.

Sure.

Rob: Good, because this is a conversation, uh, that affects a lot of homes and hearts, and we are talking- First of all, off the top, I'd like to talk about your new book.

Um, and it is called "Running for Judge."

Tim: Right.

Rob: You talk about something that is not easy to talk about: mental illness.

You are a judge with the Superior Court in Northern California and- not "but"- "and" you have mental illness.

Tim: Correct, and even though it's called "Running for Judge"-— and it does happen to be about, uh, in a way, a, uh, judicial election campaign that I went through back in 2008-— uh, that memoir of the campaign is really a mental health memoir.

Rob: Hmm.

Tim: I didn't realize that I had an anxiety disorder until, uh, the stress of the campaign really came down hard, uh, on me, started affecting me physically, uh, the- affected my thought processes.

I went to the doctor and he said, "Oh, you have an anxiety disorder," and it turned out, uh, that it's something not caused by the campaign.

It's something I had, and it was coming to a head, and my doctor identified it as this anxiety disorder.

And boy- Rob: Did you believe the doctor?

Tim: Oh, absolutely.

Rob: You did?

Okay.

Tim: Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob: Sometimes, the symptoms are so severe that you really do mimic a heart attack... Tim: Right.

Rob: ...passing out.

I mean, a... a... a panic attack can really feel like a heart attack.

So, I was curious if you believed the doctor right away.

Tim: I did, and in looking back on other things that I had experienced before 2008, I realize now- or I...

I started realizing with this diagnosis, "Oh, that's what those other things were, before then."

You mentioned mimicking a heart attack.

Uh, I was, uh, coming out of a committee meeting down in the Bay Area.

Judicial branch administration requires that judges actually administer the judicial branch.

So, I was in a... a meeting with one of the committees and I came out of it.

And it was a great meeting.

There wasn't any problem with it.

Uh, got in my car, and as soon as I sat down in my car, my whole left side went numb, particularly my left arm, and of course, my first thought is, "I'm having a heart attack," because this is the symptom of it.

Um, I sat there for awhile, you know, wondering, "Do I get myself, somehow, to an ER?

What do I do?"

Um, I ended up driving home- probably not the smartest decision for me to have made.

But I got home, uh, contacted my doctor, as soon as I got home.

Uh, and, uh, he said, uh, "See me, uh, immediately," which meant first thing, the next morning, I was in his office.

Um, he ended up saying it... it wasn't a heart attack.

Uh, this is stress-related.

I said, "What stress?"

And he explained to me, uh, that someone with a job like mine is always under stress, and it's a job that carries more stress than a lot of other jobs out there.

Uh, judges- you know, we hear awful things all the time.

Rob: You do, every single day, and I also want to say that judges are maybe unfairly judged to have it all together.

Tim: Exactly.

So, we are required by the, uh, regulations that govern our conduct, uh, the, uh, code of judicial, uh, ethics, that is essentially a... a set of state regulations that we are bound by officially, and can be subject to discipline if we violate them, uh-— They require that we have it together, uh, decorum, and patience, and... and being able to keep things moving efficiently and effectively, and providing people due process, and all of that, and- Rob: Order in the court.

Tim: Exactly, and it's... and it's nobody's ultimate responsibility but mine, uh, how my courtroom proceeds.

Rob: So, how's the reaction been, talking about mental illness?

Tim: Oh, it... it's been fine, uh, from some quarters, and not so fine from others.

Uh-— Rob: Explain.

Tim: Yeah.

I've received, uh, some emails and phone calls from other judges who are thanking me for speaking out.

They've never heard anybody talk about this, um, and- Rob: Yeah, it made People Magazine when you spoke out.

Tim: It did.

Well, it made their website...

Rob: Mmhmm.

Tim: ...and yeah.

So, I...

I've received a lot of, um, positive, uh, feedback, uh, in that way.

And I've been asked to, uh, speak to different groups, uh, since starting to talk about it.

It... it has led to speaking at the law school and, um, an invitation to speak, uh, in a webinar with the California Judges Association.

Uh, so-— Rob: And what is your message?

Tim: Well, that people who have responsible positions can still, uh, carry them out, even if there is a mental illness diagnosis, like an anxiety disorder.

I...

I've been doing this, now, for going on 27 years, now.

Rob: On the bench?

Tim: Yeah.

Yeah.

I've been a judge, um, since 1995.

I'll...

I'll hit my 27th anniversary, uh, in a few months, uh, this year.

And I've been able to get the... the job done.

Uh, I've had attorneys, uh, and judges, uh, friends who have said- uh, for example, regarding the 2008 election and how heavily it hit me then- they said, "We had no idea that's what you were going through."

Rob: Hmm.

Tim: So, somehow, I was able to keep the job going, because I'll tell you, back in 2008, when I finally got that diagnosis, um, I wasn't sleeping at night.

I was waking up at midnight with racing thoughts that kept me awake for the rest of the night.

Um, I wasn't eating; I lost 30 to 40 pounds.

Um, I was- I thought that I had trouble concentrating and focusing, apparently able still, though- once I would take the bench every day- to somehow focus and concentrate.

It was really interesting that even though, off the bench, I felt all of that, if I took the bench, it was like a switch and I could still focus and concentrate and get the job done.

Um, now, that was a five or six month period that was pretty awful.

I think that, um, if I, uh, look on some other times since then, I can say that the same thing has happened, uh, in varying degrees, when crises have come.

Uh, for example, uh, in 2016, uh, my father took a very bad fall.

I had to go into emergency neurosurgery for a subdural hematoma, had m- uh, months of, uh, rehabilitation, um, after that, uh, and, uh, eventually, we moved him into a, uh, facility- an assisted living facility- near our house, moved him from the Bay Area up to Yolo County, uh, to be within a few minutes of our house.

And then, I spent almost three years as a person who was primarily, um, concerned with making sure that he was well taken care of, getting him to his doctor's appointments.

I went to all of them.

I- Rob: 'Cause your mother... your mother, I do want to add, passed away when you were, like, 14.

Tim: Right.

Yes.

She died from...

Rob: So sorry.

Tim: ...uh, brain cancer, uh, when I was 14 and- So, uh, life continued and my dad and I, um, eventually, uh, came to where I was the one who was, um, making sure that he was well taken care of.

I also went back on anxiety meds.

My doctor put me on some, back in the 2008 campaign.

Uh, there were a couple of times since then that I went back on them for, uh, anxiety building up.

And then, starting in 2016, I pretty much just stayed on them, uh, through caring for him.

Rob: Mmhmm.

Do you... Do you take them now?

Tim: Uh, then I went off, uh, after, uh, he had passed away and... and things kind of evened out a bit, uh, life-wise.

And so, I went off them.

And then, the pandemic hit...

Rob: Mmhmm.

Tim: ...and, I'll tell you, pandemic stress is real.

Rob: It is very real.

Tim: And, yes, a few months ago, I did end up going back on a... a- yet a different medication that is much more of an as-needed, uh, type anxiety med, um, and, uh, it seems to be working well.

Rob: The reason I ask about going on and off is because of the yo-yo of anxiety medication... Tim: Right.

Rob: ...you know, on and off.

And a lot of times, people- medications are all over the... the charts.

Tim: Yes.

Rob: I mean, it can be from something that, uh, you know, helps to reduce an anxiety disorder... Tim: Yes.

Rob: ...to something that stops it in its tracks... Tim: Right.

Rob: ...if it's, um, emergent.

And- So, I was just curious if you were on the ones that stay long-term, because sometimes people feel better and then they stop taking 'em... Tim: Right.

Rob: ...and then, they're like, "Oh my goodness."

Tim: When I have, um, gone from, uh, regularly, uh, taking a... a maintenance dose to, then, not being on it, it's always been in consultation with my doctor...

Rob: Mmhmm.

Tim: ...um, who has, uh, on- at times, when I've taken it, then said, uh, "Yes, I think you're at a point now where we can wean you off of that," and then, it's been fine.

But, uh- Yeah, one of the things about the pandemic, um, besides just the stress that everybody feels about it, is, uh, with my job, I'm one of the ones who is charged with enforcing it day-to-day, uh, for, uh, my courtroom.

I am required, uh, to make sure that everybody in the courtroom is following the COVID protocols.

Rob: Wow.

Tim: So, uh, for example, yesterday, uh, in my courtroom, within a 90 minute period, I had to announce three different times a reminder of how to wear a mask, and making sure people were, um, distancing appropriately, uh, in the courtroom.

Uh, we have Zoom appearances, uh, for courtrooms.

I love those.

Makes, uh, it able for people to be very safe because they just show up on screen, but people can also come to the courthouse, uh, and, uh, that works fine as well, as long as everybody's following protocols.

Rob: Judge Fall, have you been able- And first of all, I have to say, I applaud you for talking about this because breaking stereotypes and stigma is so important.

Talking about mental illness in a high-profile job, a stressful job, is so important.

Um, it is- Also, it affects just as many people in high-profile jobs, statistics show, as it does people who are not, um, in high-profile jobs.

And you see a divide grows, sometimes, because when you have a support system, you have something to fall into.

And when you don't, you fall out.

Tim: Right.

One of the things, uh, I've found, uh, is that, um, having people who come alongside has been key.

I...

I can't just say, "It's been helpful."

It's been key.

Uh, if you read my memoir, uh, you know that, uh, I put a lot of, um, emphasis on relying on my wife.

Uh, she read the book and she said, um, "I think you gave me too much credit," and I told her, "Not even by half!"

It's just- Rob: Wow.

Tim: So, it's so much there, uh, from her.

Uh, friends, um, colleagues, uh, my doctor, uh, people at church, uh, and there were also- You would, uh, see some people that I might mention in the book who would be expected to be those who would be supportive and come alongside, who weren't.

Uh, they... they didn't, and... and I think that's part of it, too, that we need to recognize that, um, not everybody understands or is able to come alongside and help, but there are a lot who can, and they're out there.

So, yes, I...

I did rely on a lot of people, professionally and personally, uh, to help me get through things.

Rob: You had a very active online presence, um- Facebook, social media, Instagram, Twitter, you name it- um, as well as a blog, and you closed all of that down, but you are willing to talk about this to help take it to the next level.

Is that an accurate explanation?

Tim: I would say I'm willing to talk about it because mental health is so important, and the stigma it's been under has been the worst thing possible, uh, in, uh, the American, uh, health, um, perception, I think.

Uh, you know, if... if we were to talk about, uh, diabetes or heart disease- uh, now, you can't see either of those.

People would have no idea, um, whether I had diabetes or heart disease.

You don't see either of them and yet, if I talked about it, everybody would have an understanding of, "Oh, that's a health issue that you are dealing with."

Uh, if I talk about mental health- See, that's one of the problems is it's the word "mental," and people think, "Oh, you're talking about the mind," um, as opposed to, "Actually, no.

We're talking about the brain structure and chemistry."

Uh, just like your heart operates on electrical impulses and muscle strength and chemistry of how the cells in the heart work appropriately, um, that's what happens in the brain...

Rob: Yeah.

Tim: ...with what we label as "mental health."

So, the reason I'm talking about it- Rob: Specifically, because we all have "mental health"... Tim: Right.

Rob: ...when it becomes an issue, it's "mental illness."

Tim: Exactly.

It is an illness that is affecting the brain.

Rob: We are so quick as a society, I have seen, to write off mental illness... Tim: Right.

Rob: ...as someone who's just not doing what they're supposed to do, and when I've- Tim: It's somehow morally- Rob: I've heard that, and it blows my mind.

Tim: Yeah.

It's morally defective.

Right?

"You have a mental illness.

You must be morally defective."

Um, "Why... why do you want to talk about your mental illness?"

Well, you know, that's-— it's an old-fashioned notion and I'm glad that, uh, mental illness and mental health is getting more discussion now.

Rob: Mmhmm.

Tim: Um, and one of the reasons that I'm talking about it is I haven't yet seen it discussed as being an active issue with people who hold, uh, government positions, elected officials.

Rob: So, is this, what we're doing, different than that?

Tim: I'm at a point now, where if someone else who has, um, some sort of, uh, media, uh, presence, um- uh, journalists, principally, uh- If I can talk to a responsible journalist- that's where you come in- I want to- Rob: Well, thank you.

I appreciate- Tim: Sure.

Rob: I do appreciate that because that's what we are at PBS.

Tim: Right.

And so, if someone, um, wants to, uh, have a discussion about, uh, mental illness and trying to remove the stigma, and my purpose in all of this is to provide a resource or, um, a reference for people, um, then, yes, I...

I do want to have those discussions.

Uh, one of the things that, um, we are encouraged to do, uh, as judges, is to have, uh, public contact when it comes to the judicial branch and judicial administration, and helping people understand how that works.

And so, I'm having this discussion now because I want to make sure people understand, "No, you're not!"

You are not disqualified.

You're not disqualified for being a judge.

You're not disqualified for being a journalist.

You're not disqualified for being a teacher, or a firefighter, or whatever.

And, you know, there are people who are going to say, "Well, I don't know anybody who's mentally ill," and the numbers are, actually, that one in four people have anxiety or depression or both, either presently, or they've had it, or they will have it.

That's the number.

So, if it's one in four, then that means that somebody in your family, somebody at work, somebody in your classroom at school, wherever it is, um, one or more people that you interact with every day- and probably much more than one- Rob: How has being open about mental illness, um, impacted your empathy?

Tim: That's a great question because it's one that my wife threw at me, um, back in 2008.

If I see someone in the courtroom- and it... and it may be an attorney, it could be a witness- If I see somebody who looks like they are starting to become overwhelmed...

Rob: Mmhmm.

Tim: ...by what's happening, I will recognize that, and I can- One of the things judges can do, and we're invited to do this often as necessary, is take a recess.

Rob: Mmhmm.

Tim: So, I will just say, "You know, I think it's time for us to, uh, take a break."

Rob: To people who are struggling, do not be afraid to tell your story.

It will set you free.

This is the trial of your life, possibly- dealing with mental illness.

Tim: Mmhmm.

Rob: And yet, you are here to turn that trial into a testament.

Tim: Well, I- my hope is that when you and I talk about things like this and you go off and talk to your colleagues about it, and I talk to, um, judge groups and lawyer groups and law students and communities and the public, such as I'm doing right now, that what we're doing is telling people a... a couple of things.

One is, it's okay to talk about this.

Um, let's have the conversation continue.

Uh, also it's okay to go get help.

Uh, I strongly encourage people to, uh, talk to their doctors about this.

Uh, and if there's a therapist that you can go to and... and therapy works for you, please do that as well.

I do want to tell people, too, who may feel like they are in the pit right now, whether it's anxiety or depression or another mental illness- and I think you're going to recognize clearly, Rob, what I'm talking about- If you are in that position, I have been in that position as well.

When you read in my book where the reference is to the movie "Tommy Boy," um, it becomes very clear how deep that pit was that I was in.

I want to tell everyone who may be in that place, or have been in that place and wonder about if they're ever going to fall back into it, that, uh, moment, which may be a very long period of time- it can certainly feel that way- is not permanent.

It is not forever.

There is another moment that will follow, uh, and it will be a better one.

Things do get better, uh, and, uh, getting good help is part of reaching when it gets better.

Sometimes, frankly, just the passage of time is also what helps it get better.

Rob: Mmhmm.

Tim: Um, you know, the phrase "Time heals all wounds," um, has some truth, whether it's truly healing or it's just putting distance between one moment and another.

Time works well that way.

And wait for that time to pass because then, things move on and they are better.

That's what I found.

Rob: And when you're in the middle of it and you feel like you cannot stand one more second of it, is when you need that next second the most, regardless of how it feels... Tim: Right.

Rob: ...because if you're sitting in that moment and you are isolated and alone, the minute you say "I need help" out loud, even to yourself- and find anyone to say it to- you're not alone.

Tim: Right.

Rob: And if you are watching this right now at home or on your device, anywhere in the world, I want you to know that there is hope.

There are two people right here looking at you, a judge and somebody on TV with a TV show, telling you that we have been there and you can do it.

You can make it through.

Tim: There is a better moment about to happen.

Rob: Mmhmm.

What is your- What is on your heart, in... in closing here, that must be shared?

Tim: I just want to tell people, um, there's me, uh, there's you, Rob, uh, there are millions of people in America who, with- to one degree or another, are dealing with what can be diagnosed as a mental illness, a... a disorder of some sort, um- And... and yes, a clinical diagnosis, uh, not people who are like, "Oh, you know, I'm kind of feeling anxious about, uh, my final exam tomorrow," or, uh, "Boy, that... that situation really got me down."

You know, everybody is going to do that.

I have those moments too, but that's not the diagnosis of an anxiety disorder or of clinical depression.

Tho... those are different, and when we get to that point- and even if you're thinking, "Well, I think I'm just the person who's anxious about the exam tomorrow, but boy, this happens a lot," or, "I'm feeling depressed about something that I was looking forward to now not happening, but that happens a lot."

Well, talk to your doctor about it.

See what they say.

You know?

Get some help and take it from there.

That's a completely legitimate way to address these things.

And then, keep looking for help.

I'm...

I'm glad I have.

Rob: Mmhmm.

I'm glad I have, too.

I'm glad you have, because I...

I see the ripple effects of you being open and honest and transparent with your story.

That is rippling all throughout the court system, if you have all these reactions coming to you from judges saying, "Thank you for telling your story."

Empathy grows.

Tim: Well, you mentioned, um, the title of the book, "Running for Judge," and, you know, the subtitle- People may, at first, think, "Oh, that pertains to the campaign, because the subtitle is- I've got it right here, um, and it's, "Campaigning on the trail of despair, deliverance, and overwhelming success."

That is not about the campaign.

That is about the mental health portion.

This is a mental health memoir that is draped over the structure of a reelection campaign in 2008.

"...despair, deliverance, and overwhelming success."

Rob: Wow.

That's powerful.

That is very powerful.

Judge Tim Fall, I am so grateful for you.

I am thrilled that you shared so much time with us and for helping, uh, make this world a better place.

So, thank you.

Tim: I am...

I am completely honored that you have brought me along for this.

Thank you.

Rob: Thank you.

Judge Tim Fall joining us from Yolo County and we will see you next week, right here, on Rob at Home.

Have a great day.

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