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And now, Rob on the Road, exploring Northern California.

Rob: I am so excited to welcome our guest to Rob at Home this week.

Chief Kathy Lester is joining us on Rob at Home, and Chief, it is great to see you and congratulations!

Kathy: Thank you, Rob.

I have to tell you, I am so excited to get to talk to you.

I've followed you for a long time and I'm a big fan.

So, thank you for having me on your show.

I'm really excited to meet you and...

Rob: Well, thank you.

Kathy: ...you know, see you through, like, you know, something other than the TV.

You know, this is actually like a- sort of a face-to-face, how we do it now.

Rob: It is so nice to see you, and thank you for that.

And I am so glad to meet you as well.

And to... to just say congratulations, first of all.

This is a historic time for the city of Sacramento.

Kathy: Yeah.

Rob: The first time in Sacramento's history to have a female Chief of Police.

Kathy: Yeah.

It only took 172 years, if you can believe that.

Pretty exciting.

But yeah, we have had, uh, two big firsts, 'cause, uh, Chief Daniel Hahn, before me, was the first African American chief, and now I'm the... the first woman, or lady chief, and, uh- So yeah, I look a little bit different than the historical pictures that we have up on our wall here, at the police station.

Rob: Has this always been a dream for you?

Was it a dream for you to become chief?

Kathy: No!

Are you kidding?

Absolutely not.

It's just a crazy thing.

Um, I- Honestly, it was a matter of timing, I think, had a lot to do with it.

You know, certainly, as you get closer, um, you... you know, you start looking at that, 'cause it really is sort of, like, the top job for cops, right?

But never- When I started, never in a million years did I think that I would be a Chief of Police, you know- much less here, in a big city like Sacramento- really, even recently, um, had thought about it.

I...

I truly, um- I don't think I was mentally prepared for Chief Hahn to leave, but, you know, but when he announced his retirement, I really started thinking about it because, to me, the most important thing is that you have to serve the city well, and serve the department.

So, it's not about the job itself, but it's about whether or not you can do those things well.

And so, for me, that was a question, or two questions I really had to ask myself, and do some soul-searching, um, because it's not just any job.

As you know, it's a huge responsibility, um, and I did a lot of soul-searching because I just didn't want to let the city or our department down, quite honestly.

Rob: When you were soul-searching, what was it that did it for you?

What said, "I'm going to do it."?

Kathy: You know, the- in law enforcement right now, there's a lot of reasons why you wouldn't want to have the top job.

As a matter of fact, um, towards the end of last year- There's a big organization called Major City Chiefs Association, and it's the top 68 cities between the United States and Canada, and if I remember the stat correctly- I hope to get this right- they said since, really, the ban- the beginning of the pandemic, out of those 68 major cities, 44 chiefs have been fired, have retired, or have resigned.

And so, there's this huge gap in leadership, um, and we have great people coming up into those jobs, but you're finding it very difficult to, um, recruit, um, good police chiefs.

And so, one, I really had to kind of take that into account.

Am I, you know, am I made for this job?

Am I going to be able to... to do what I need to do for the city and for our department?

Um, so, that was one... one thing.

And, you know, you can look at it two ways.

Like, "Oh, hey, everyone's quitting that job.

I don't know if I should do it," but you can also look at it as a big opportunity, and truly, when you become a leader in an organization like this, especially at the higher levels, I really felt like it was my obligation, my sense of duty.

Um, you know, you don't become a leader for the rank, but I felt like our organization really had a need, and I thought, after really, um, taking a look at the skills that I have and- I'm a little bit different, um, I really felt like I could meet that need.

And so, then that was the- my decision to put in for it.

And then, at that point, it became a selection process 'cause, in the end, I, too, really wanted the city to make the right selection, whether it was me, or whether it was somebody else.

So, that was just to put in for the process.

I had to sort of go through that... that, I guess, that thought process.

Rob: Let me ask you, how does- Or... or does being a mother make you a better police chief and leader?

Kathy: Right.

Well, one, I think everyone needs a mom, and I've joked around for a long time about being the mom of the department, because it's two things.

And I think number one, um, you know, you love your kids and you want the best for 'em, and you work really hard to make sure that they have what they need to be successful.

But you also hold them accountable, you know?

Um, and you make sure that they're doing what they need to do to be successful.

So, in this case, when it comes to leading an organization that seems maybe a little simplistic, but I think if you look at that- You look at your organization as people, you look at your community as people, and then you make decisions based on what's the best for both the community and for the organization, for the people, um, you know, within those, um, those two groups.

I...

I think you just see things, uh, differently.

There was a really good quote- I'll have to send it to you- by Meryl Streep that I loved, and it talked about having more women in leadership roles.

And it really came down to, you know, being a mom and on the- on this particular piece, it was about, you know, you don't want to see kids get killed, and so, for what we do in law enforcement, that's a real piece of it.

You know, you want to initiate good public safety, um, solutions, and you want to be able to deliver public safety in a way where you have re- you know, reduced number of victims, you have reduced harm, and that's how we should be looking at, you know, when we enforce, how we enforce, what are those outcomes?

And so, I think if you're looking at trying to really make your community safer and having less victims, I think moms are really good about doing that.

Uh, that's my opinion on it anyway.

Rob: I have been really fascinated by learning about your personal story, uh, growing up, your life story and- from teenage on, the... the road that you have been on, the journey.

Tell us about things that you would like us to know about your early years.

You're still in your early years, but your earlier years.

Kathy: That's very kind of you.

Rob: Right after that high school period.

You were talking about a lot during your promotion ceremony, and I find it fascinating.

Kathy: Well, I think, um- I...

I think it's important for people to know that your perspective can change over years, right?

Um, when I started here, I really thought everyone had to fit one mold.

You had to be a certain way, and in a way, I kind of had a chip on my shoulder for, um, people that didn't, you know, work hard to change their life circumstances, but I really realize now that people come from really complex backgrounds and people have a lot of challenges, and it's not about whether or not you can overcome something, but really about what happened to you and how we sort of get people there.

So, I tell my story.

It's not, um- It's not really flattering, actually, but I want people to understand, because I think it's really important for people to know that you can make mistakes in your life and you can overcome them.

And so, I talk about being a high school dropout, and a lot of that relates to why I think it's so important, um, to support youth in our community, because I, personally, feel really lucky that I turned out okay.

My mom says I "turned out okay."

So, I'm...

I'm okay.

Mom, thanks.

She says I'm okay.

Um, but, the, uh, you know- The reality of it is I got lucky.

I had some good mentors.

I had- It was good timing.

Some of it was just luck.

And so, I know that there's other, you know, kids, other, you know, young adults out there that may be struggling, and I think it's important for them to see that, yeah, you can struggle, but there are ways to move forward and ultimately be successful, because I do think people need to have hope and be able to see things.

So, I draw on my own experience, one, when I'm talking to people because I think it's important that, um, you know, you show that you weren't just given a job like this, that you worked really hard for it, um, but two, I think it definitely helps you make better decisions, um, and really recognize that there are a lot of things that we can do in public safety to make those circumstances better for people.

But, yeah, I...

I shared a couple of things and honestly, it's made me a better worker, for sure.

When you have jobs that are maybe not so- I think I said they weren't very "glamorous" when I was talking about 'em, but- Rob: Like what?

Kathy: Oh, let's see.

Well, my first job, um- My first real job was at Cloth World, and my... my job was to vacuum the floors and, um, drape the fabric.

If you ever go into a fabric store, the fabric gets draped just one certain way, and so, I had to drape all the fabric, and then- But actually, in that job, I learned how to sew and I bought myself a sewing machine, and I learned all sorts of stuff from there.

And then, um, I worked as a seating hostess at J J North's Grand Buffet, and I brought people coffee and we get $1 tips, but that taught me how to talk to people, you know, and work in heels, you know, which is also helpful.

Um, and then did a lot of things in the army.

You know, you work really hard when you're in the military, for sure, and, um, I- That- I truly appreciate, I guess, the... the non-military jobs, the civilian jobs, and it's little things.

Like, if you get sick, you can actually call in sick to work when it happens.

You can't do that in the army, you know?

So, there's some comparisons there.

Um, so yeah, they weren't always glamorous, but I always learned from those jobs, and I do think it's really important that we all work those hard jobs, because I think it gives you a certain- one, it gives you a sense of appreciation for when you get a really great job and start building your career, but I also think it really helps with your work ethic, you know, um, being able to do kind of... kind of anything.

It helps you relate to people, for sure.

You know?

'Cause- Rob: When... when did you finish your educ- When did you go back to school?

Kathy: Oh, let's see.

I, um- I actually, um- I started before I went into the army, and then I came back and I really- Uh, I would say it was- The year was probably about 1997.

I was working as a police officer by then, um, and working the graveyard, and then going to Sac State during the daytime, which I don't know that I could pull off now, but, you know, when you're in your, you know, your early twenties, I think you're a little bit tougher when it comes to stuff like that.

But yeah, I finished my, um, my degree.

That was before online degrees and, really, before, like, internet-type classes, and so, you... you know, you actually drove to campus and parked and took the classes and everything, but I just came, um, from Sac State, um, you know, recently, uh, talking to a class.

And I love that school.

They did such a great job, you know, with me, and I learned a lot.

I can write, for sure.

So, you know, it's a- just a good place.

Rob: How- Was it hard for you to go back to school as an adult, and how were you able to do that?

What... what... what made that possible for you... Kathy: Oh, well- Rob: ...besides your strength?

Kathy: Yeah.

You know, I don't think it- For me, it was more about, like, it's hard when you're working full-time just to go to school and handle the, um, you know, the schoolwork.

But I love school, and I think having people with different backgrounds and different education- you know, just different degrees really helps us, as an organization.

You know, we have a lot of hard problems to solve, so it's nice to have people that can critically think through those, and, you know, having some diversity in thought is really important.

Rob: Absolutely, and... and, like you said, there are a lot of hard problems to tackle, um, and... and that will come.

Uh, this episode is a... is a personal spotlight on your journey- you, as a human being- and I...

I want to say something to you, because you said about your, uh, early days, with school, and you said "It's not that glamorous, what I went... went through in jobs."

But what I feel, when I hear that, is... is you may feel it's not glamorous, but I hear it as "glorious," because that is so powerful.

Sharing our stories change lives, and the fact that someone watching this will know that you have been through other things besides being the chief of police, but that you have lived life, and tough.

It's a game changer, chief.

It changes everything.

Kathy: Thank you.

I really appreciate that, and actually, I think most, um, you know, really strong leaders tend to have like these very- um, you know, have challenges in their backgrounds, and that's why they are able to do, really, a good job doing what they do.

I always thought that would be a detriment, but it took, um, took a while- I guess I was a little slow- but I figured out that, actually, it could be a real strength, to your point.

So, thank you.

Rob: Oh, a source of pride.

Abso- I mean, to me, that is... that is... that is crucial to your story, because it... it- no matter what, I believe it levels the playing field and makes you relatable to everybody.

Kathy: Well, and you have to remember, too, like, you have to treat people the right way because that- you know, the server that you're talking to, you know, the person parking your car, um, you know, they could be the next chief of police.

Right?

And even if they're not, everyone deserves basic human respect, and sometimes you get that, and sometimes you don't, and you certainly don't ever want to be a person that doesn't give another human being respect, regardless of the job or the profession that they're in.

I- Those are lessons that I've carried with me throughout the years, for sure.

Rob: What would you like to say, heart-to-heart, that truly is the litmus test for you of... of what matters the most?

Kathy: Well, I think, one, personally, um- and I've talked about this before- we, as human beings, as a society, tend to look and see what's going wrong all the time.

Like, we're fixers and we're always, um- Well, at least, in my profession, we're always looking to see what we can do better, which means we have to really analyze the things that we aren't doing very well, and I think that we, um, we, as a society, tend to do that too much.

Um, I spoke to Richard Pan a number of years ago.

We were actually out, on a national night out.

We were all riding around in a van, and we were talking about this community that, um, for the first time ever, had put together a national night out event.

And "Oh, this'll be great.

I can't wait to go, you know, talk to people in the neighborhood."

And he was talking about the work he did as a pediatrician, and what he was saying was kind of along the same veins, in that you shouldn't look at communities about what they don't have, but you should look at communities about the strengths that they do have, and the people are the same way.

So, on the personal side of things, I really appreciate the fact that the city gave me some really good opportunities.

Um, so, you can look at all of these things that we want to do better and that we can work on, but you've got to look and see what we did well.

And the fact that I'm sitting right here was- is 27 years of history, of things that we have done well to bring me here.

So, that would be the first thing, and then, when it comes to, like, "What would I want to say to the citizens and the community of Sacramento?"

um, you know, public safety really does, um, become a shared responsibility.

You can't have the police solve all of your problems, just like we can't expect the community to address all problems without the police, and I think there's some great opportunities for us to do policing in a different way.

I mean, certainly, if we haven't learned from the last few years about the challenges that we have in our community, and about the, you know, the very complicated relationship that law enforcement has had, in history, with our community, we can't move forward.

So, I'm glad that we're having that discussion.

I hope there's some opportunities that we have, collectively, to do things in a different and a better way, maybe things in ways that we haven't really even thought of yet, because I truly think that there are ways to do public safety in a different way, um, using a lot of our community partners, and I've got great examples, but I think that's really the key to our success in the future.

Rob: Well, you've also committed, um, big time, to diversification.

Kathy: Yeah, I sure have.

We just signed a "30x30 Initiative," and, uh, and the idea is that we get 30% women into law enforcement by '23, and so, right now, we have, um- You know, we have, um, over 700 sworn officers, and we're doing better, um, than some, but we're only about 17%, um, of... of women.

So, I'd like to see that number increase to at least 30% by 2030, but I want to be really clear when I talk about that.

Um, one, I love the initiative because, for us, when we're trying to figure out how we best recruit, lots of times, it's brainstorming around a table, trying to see what's worked, coming up with new ideas.

What I love about that initiative is there some really smart people, um, behind it, on the research side of things at the national level, and what I'm really hoping is they can do a good assessment to see what we're doing well, and then give us some ideas on what we can do better, because I do want to see that diversification in law enforcement.

And I know it can happen because we've changed so many things, even since when I started, but I want to be clear that it's not just about bringing women into the organization.

It's about bringing people from all walks of life, and that's a real challenge for us.

There has been, for a long time, a call for police departments to represent the communities that they serve, but we always seem to struggle getting that representation.

So, it's twofold.

One, it's how we attract people in the door, but the other piece of it is how do we show people this is a great profession.

It's going to take a little bit to move the needle, but I can tell you that some of the efforts that we've started the last couple of years are really starting to pay off, um, and we're seeing higher numbers of diversity in our academies, um, as well as our entry-level programs.

So, I'm really excited to see that, and I hope to continue along those... those tracks.

So, what I hope the 30x30 Initiative can do is really, uh, make sure that we aren't missing anything and that we, um, are using everything available to us to make this profession really attractive to... to new candidates coming in.

Rob: I...

I love to try to arm people with as much practice and with as much information as possible.

So, for the next time someone watching has an encounter with an officer- any type of encounter, anything- what is the best piece of advice that you would give the person from the public and the officer?

Kathy: Any kind of encounter?

I think...

Rob: Anything.

Kathy: I think, really, what's important, um, for both officers and for the public, is that we have to have respect for each other as human beings.

I mean, that is the bottom... bottom line.

Um, and there's a lot of, um, lot of discussions around this, and I think that, sometimes, if we have a bad encounter, that is the- the root cause is having that lack of respect, because it leads to a lack of understanding, which leads to assumptions, which leads to action that may not be appropriate.

Um, so, that's number one.

I talk to the officers about it, and I certainly hope the public, um, thinks along those lines as well.

I don't have that same expectation because, really, the police, um, are held to a higher standard, quite frankly, that we should go into every encounter with an open mind, with- not asking, you know, "What's wrong with you?"

or wha- why- you know, "Why did this happen?"

but, you know, "What happened to you, to get you here, and how do I help you?"

Like, what can I do to help?

It's really a change of mindset, and I think that if we, as police, start doing more of that and focusing on, really, what our role should be, we will have better encounters.

And that's not to say that there's not going to be bad encounters, um, which is really unfortunate, but it is a reality, um, and we want to minimize those and do everything we can with training, but I do believe that if we, as human beings, can give each other respect at every encounter, what an amazing place the world would be!

Right?

All the challenges that we have right now, uh, with people struggling with the anger, the fear that you see in our community- If we could just have that basic level of human respect and civility, I think that's something that we're really missing.

Rob: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Um, I...

I want to ask you that- you know, at the end of... of the day, so to speak, what will make this worth it for you?

What will... what will be the... the thing that makes you feel like this- that I've done this, this is- that this is worth it, that it's working?

Kathy: Yeah.

Well, that's an easy question.

It's, really, to make a difference, and make a difference in the right way.

I mean, and there's a lot of opportunities to do that.

Um, I don't think anyone's naive enough to think that they can fix all the world's problems, but, um, they talk about, you know, that a small group of individuals can change the world.

It's the only thing it really has.

I think that's Margaret Mead, right?

Um, and so, I think that having people and individuals that are really focused on trying to improve the world in a better way, I think you can make a difference.

So, for me, that's my test of success.

You know?

It's not about the rank.

It's not about, you know, kind of the... the public-facing side.

It's "Did we make a difference?

Did someone's life change, in a better way, because of what we did?"

and it's what I expect, not only of myself, but everyone who's a leader in this organization, and anyone who's representing public safety, and I really try to talk about that when we bring people into the profession, and explain, "You are a public official.

You have an amazing amount of authority.

You have an amazing ability to make life, um, better for people, and that's what we need to do."

So, if I can do that- You know, the more I can do of it, the more I'll feel like I'm a success, and I think there's a lot of different aspects to... to measuring that and, uh, and finding success.

Rob: With all that said, what gives you hope?

What gives you hope, Chief Lester?

What- In... in closing, what is it that... that you feel you need to say in this moment, that will have made this 30 minutes matter to you?

And then, what gives you hope for the next?

Kathy: I think that it's really important to be an optimist, and I think- Um, and my opinion is it really changes your perspective on how, one, you view problems, and two, you attempt to solve those problems.

And I think that the key for all of us, even under challenging times- I'm not naive- is that we have to be optimistic about our future and what we're trying to do.

I think that says a lot about us, as people, um, in wanting to move forward.

So, um, for me, that would be the one piece that I would... that I would want to share about who I am and what I think is important.

Rob: But if you're an optimist at heart, you have a foundation of hope, even when that foundation is shaken.

Kathy: Well, and I- To that point, too, I'll add to that.

Um, it's easy for me to have hope at this point, realistically, cause I've, you know, been able to do a lot of good things.

I'm in this great position now.

I think that the important piece is creating hope for others, because there are other people that are not in that same position and may not feel like they really have a chance to make it, or that anybody's there to support them, um, and when you don't have hope, you really don't just have a chance, either, mentally or moving forward.

And so, I think any opportunity that we have, as a society, as your police department, as our community, to create hope for others is really the key to us being healthy and having these thriving communities that we really want, and to healing, quite frankly.

Rob: Okay.

Well then, here's- Here it is, then.

If any opportunity to share hope, um, should be taken, then I'm going to give you that opportunity right now.

Act like I'm not even here.

What would you say directly to someone who may feel hopeless, particularly in regard to- Well, we'll... we'll use your role- right?

- with law enforcement, um, and that they may not have feel seen or heard before.

What would you say to someone feeling hopeless around situation, when it comes to, maybe, their safety?

Kathy: I'm going to draw on the strength of Sacramento, because I think Sacramento is a really cool city in a lot of ways.

One, we're big enough that we have a lot of diversity and we have, um, an amazing, you know, amazing community.

And when I say community, it's not one nameless, faceless community.

There are people in the community.

I know you know this- you can't go anywhere in Sacramento without running into somebody you know, and that is a strength.

So, when people are discouraged, when they feel that the police department isn't maybe there for them, or they're concerned, they have to know the police department is part of the community and we're made up of individuals, regular people that you'll see every day.

And so, I think if we look at it that way, knowing that we're a small community, small enough to have connections and build on those connections, that's how you find hope.

And that's one of the things that I love about Sacramento, and not only the department, but our community.

Rob: Mmhmm.

Reach out.

All you have to do is reach out and say you need help, and the minute you do that, I can promise you that help is on the way.

You just have to ask.

Kathy: Thank you.

It's been great.

It's been wonderful.

I've gotten to actually meet and talk with you and everything.

You're such a fantastic person.

Rob: Oh, I th- Thank you, and I feel the same way about you, and I have to say you have a great team and I noticed the, uh, breadth and the depth of diversity in your promotions, that you promoted with the promotion ceremony.

And I just have to say that I could see your team so glad that you are their leader, and every time I...

I speak to a police officer around town recently, I've- I said, "What do you think about your new chief?"

and they're just like, "Oh, she's amazing.

She's amazing."

So, I wanted you to hear that back.

Kathy: Thank you!

So, you got a big fan right here.

He walked in.

Adam: What's going on, Rob?

How are you?

Rob: Hey, what's up?

How are you?

Adam: How you been?

Rob: Good to see you.

Slide in a little bit and, um, just tell everybody, real quick, who you are.

I, of course, know who you are, but- Adam: Hey, everybody.

I'm Adam Green.

I'm a deputy chief of the police department, and I'm- Rob: Newly promoted.

Adam: Newly promoted, and a huge fan of Rob's.

We met, uh, a couple years back at Leadership Sac, and he's just an awesome person.

Rob: I remember you, vividly, that day.

It was on 12th street, I believe.

Listen, congratulations to both of you, and best of luck.

I'm rooting you on, and, um, I am here to help you in any way that you need.

All you have to do is ask, okay?

Kathy: I love it, Rob.

I can't wait, and let me know when you need somebody to, like, carry your lunch or your camera equipment.

I'm happy to moonlight for a day, just to see what you do.

You have a great job and you do great things for us.

So, thank you.

Rob: Thank you.

I will tell you your hope is infectious, and, um, I see that about you.

I can see the optimism, and that is a beautiful thing to see, because we do have a lot to be hopeful for.

So, thank you for joining us this week on Rob at Home, and we will see you next time, right here, on PBS.

Stay with KVIE.

♪♪ Annc: Murphy Austin Adams Schoenfeld, LLP, focusing on business law and commercial litigation, is proud to support Rob on the Road - Region Rising.

More information available at murphyaustin.com.