Annc: Murphy Austin Adams Schoenfeld, LLP, focusing on business law and commercial litigation, is proud to support Rob on the Road - Region Rising.

More information available at murphyaustin.com.

♪♪ And now Rob on the Road, exploring Northern California.

Rob: And joining me now is Lial Jones from the Crocker Art Museum.

Lial is the Mort and Marcy Friedman Director and CEO.

It is great to see you, Lial.

Thanks for being here.

Lial: My pleasure, Rob.

Good to see you.

Rob: Good to see you, too.

Let's talk about, uh, the state of affairs at the Crocker right now.

First of all, how are things going?

It's been a very hard couple of years.

Lial: It has.

You know, I...

I think of, uh, two different things.

Uh, I have a friend who often says, "Well, uh, it's not boring," and, uh, it's not, uh, the way things going.

And... and then, the other one, of course, is, "May you live in interesting times," and these certainly are, um, in... in all of its various connotations.

Uh, it... it's difficult.

Uh, you know, th... the fact is we're fine.

Um, we're absolutely fine.

And, um, so many hundreds of thousands of people are not, and institutions are not.

So, I'm very grateful for the fact that we are, um, doing just fine.

Um, but it is difficult when you set plans and you spend a lot of time planning and then, um, all of your plans, basically, poof!

You know, they... they all have to change and then you redo them and then, poof!

They have to change again, and... and that is the environment that we're living in.

Uh, we're coping, uh, as well as we can, um, and we're trying, uh, and we're still, I think, doing a very good job serving the public in a variety of ways, but they're not necessarily the same ways we have in the past.

Rob: You serve a huge public, a very, um, wide depth and breadth, uh, of... of people all across the board, socioeconomic, um, all types of communities in Northern California.

So, has it been hard to maintain those services?

And... and when we talk about things at the Crocker, are you still able to reach some of the people that desperately need you the most?

Lial: Um, yeah, we've worked very hard at that.

We also, um, you know, have shifted a number of our programs to being online and virtual.

So, in fact, uh, in many ways, our audience has expanded, uh, expe- especially geographically.

Um, where we have had a strategic focus on the Sacramento Valley, uh, in the past, um- While we look at the entire state, the nation, and, you know, we serve a number of international visitors, some of those international and visitors... visitors from the East Coast and elsewhere in the United States, uh, are lower numbers in person, um, but they still do come online, uh, and we do serve them that way.

Uh, we have a- and Rob, you know this- we have a very, uh, longstanding program called "Block by Block" that embeds Crocker educators in various neighborhoods throughout the Sacramento- um, city of Sacramento.

Uh, those programs are continuing.

We have teams that are working for us, in a variety of different ways, working in schools and community centers.

Uh, we have educators in the schools.

Uh, we do, uh, programs online.

We are open to the public now.

We were closed for 11 months, um, uh, which was just- That was very- That was hard.

Um, we are now open again.

Um, we are- don't have all of our current- our former hours.

Uh, we don't have evening hours.

We're not open, um, on Tuesdays currently.

But we're looking forward to getting back, uh, to those, as people can, um, feel safer and health- you know, know that their health is, uh, considered, uh, when they come back to the museum.

Rob: So, you, during the... the 11-month period, so much was expanded online and much of that- many galleries online- so many things are accessible to bring art to the community, and as you said, to the nation and the world.

The Crocker being one of California's most renowned art institutions, um, how are things going financially?

Lial: Well, you know, uh, there was a prediction, uh, when the pandemic start that 30% of all museums in the United States would close.

Rob: Yeah, we talked about that.

You and I did on air all about two years ago.

Lial: We did.

And, uh, fortunately, we've not seen that happen.

One of the reasons why we have not seen that happen is because of the CARES money, um, uh, and things such as the Shuttered Venue Operators Grant that the museums were able to apply for, and payroll protection, um, plans and loans.

Uh, those have helped, tremendously, institutions around the nation, and the Crocker.

Um, so, we haven't seen the terrible shortfall that we were expecting.

Um, but museums are lagging industries, and we know as the economy comes and builds back up, um, that there's a potential that museums won't build as quickly as some other institutions.

Uh, and we also know that arts, culture, hospitality, leisure industries were hurt the worst through the pandemic, and... and we are feeling those effects.

Rob: I'd like to talk to you about, um, some international news and some very sad news that came out of Sacramento at the end of 2021, and that is the... the death of icon, and... and I should say "friend" to you and to the Crocker, Wayne Thiebaud, um... Lial: Yes.

Rob: ...painter, internationally known.

And I just would love to talk to you.

First of all, I'm sorry... Lial: Thank you.

Rob: ...and I'm curious, just, how the Crocker is coping with this, because he's such a huge part of the Crocker.

Lial: He is a huge part of the Crocker and has been for decades.

Uh, the Crocker gave Wayne has first one-person show in 1951, and we've done at least one exhibition every decade since.

So, that's a lot of exhibitions.

In fact, uh, we currently- Well, when we closed for the pandemic, we had a... a major Wayne Thiebaud, um, exhibition on view that we had to close early.

It's, you know, been, um, all around the U.S., uh, uh, and is still traveling.

At the conclusion of the tour, in April of 2022, we're going to bring that exhibition back, uh, to the Crocker, and it will be on view for a number of months.

Um, we had hoped it could still be a celebration with Wayne.

Um, now it will be a celebration in memory of Wayne.

Rob: I'm sorry.

I really am.

Uh, I know that you, and, you know, so many of your staff members have gotten very close to him.

Lial: We have, and, you know, it... it... it's- It is- It can't be stated enough- I guess, is the right way to say it- um, Wayne's importance as a painter, um, internationally, as you mentioned.

Uh, but he's also just been, uh, in many ways a... a heart and a soul of the arts in Sacramento.

Um, and it- When Wayne died on Christmas day in 2021, it was, um, the conclusion of a tough week.

We had also lost, uh, Sacramento native, Joan Didion, earlier that week.

Uh, and it's been a very tough year for the arts, uh, both locally and, um, internationally.

Uh, earlier this year, we lost, um, Greg Kondos, one of Wayne's great friends, also a great friend of the Crocker.

So, um, you know, it's... it's, uh- During a time of great loss in many ways, uh, we've also felt great personal loss.

Rob: I was going to talk to you about Gregory Kondos, as well.

I went and watched hours of videos of interviews with Gregory and, um, and... and with Wayne, as well, that Wayne had done with other people.

Um, and what a... what a humble, um, kind, strong, when it comes to talking about his art, um, and students- But what a kind, humble man, when it came to talking about himself.

He did not see himself the way the rest of the world did.

Lial: You know, he... he once made a comment that, uh, he paints every day, partly because he's still trying to master painting, um, which, of course... by looking at his work, he was a master.

And just the surfaces of his, um, of his canvases, the- just the lusciousness of the paint.

Um, but really, I think, what's wonderful about Wayne's work is it was- in every media that he tried, whether it was drawing, printmaking, um, painting, uh, he was a master, he was a student of art, a student of art history, um, he was a student of technique.

And while many people think of him for some of his iconic works from the sixties- some of the cakes and pies and bakery counters, things that are often associated with pop art- uh, you really have to look at those pieces as great works of formalism.

Uh, you break them down into their geometric, um, shapes.

A... a piece of pie becomes a triangle, you know, part of a circle, uh, and you start to understand how he composed paintings in a way that just made them more than their subject matter.

Um, while their subject matter was wonderfully appealing, um, uh, tasty, even, in some cases, um, their... their formality just made them work in a way that any great masterwork, uh, holds up over time, regardless of what the subject matter is.

And... and that is one of the things I think he taught his students, as well.

And... and one of the things about, um, great teachers is they are lifelong students.

And I think Wayne was, as well.

Rob: Yeah, and... and one of the quotes that stuck with me, with Gregory, is that he will be a lifelong student and he will die a student, and he did.

Lial: Yeah.

Rob: Um, and, you know, this... this just makes me think of... of something.

And that is, I was watching an interview with Wayne where he talked about his art being fiction, but the feelings that come from it are not.

Lial: Right.

Rob: And I just want to ask, you know, your opinion on that, because I see the pieces that these two icons, and... and many more artists, have created that cause such feeling... Lial: Mmhmm.

Rob: ...and such joy.

And as you look at them at the Crocker, you can get lost for hours, even if you've been a hundred times... Lial: Right.

Rob: ...um, looking at one painting.

Um, the... the feeling it leaves you with is- it outlives.

Lial: You know, I... I- You... you said, "paintings of fiction."

I tend to think of them as, "paintings of magic."

Rob: I do, too.

That was just quoting him.

Lial: Okay.

Um, so, you know, on this... this flat surface, this flat piece of canvas, or a panel, or whatever the structure is, um, artists create a three-dimensionality that is- um, has such realness for us, that we can transport ourselves right into the scene.

Um, you know, we can, um, be resident in a landscape.

We can, um- Basically, you know, with Wayne's work, you can taste those pies because you know what pies tastes like, and you- just, the lusciousness of them.

You know, you're... you're right there.

You... you are, uh, transported.

Um, uh, so they are a fiction, um, but I do prefer to think of it as a magic.

Rob: I do, too.

I was shocked when I heard him say that in an interview, about it being fiction, but I will tell you his next sentence said he also thought they were miracles.

Lial: There you go.

That's- That, uh- That... that works.

Rob: That works, yes.

Um, may I ask you, personally, were you able to, at some point in the past, during the pandemic, speak with him and... and... and talk?

Lial: Um, well, we were.

In fact, um, uh, Wayne and the Wayne Thiebaud Foundation have been very supportive of the Crocker, um, for many decades.

And, um, not too long ago, they gave us another grouping, a major grouping of works of art for the collection.

So, our collection now numbers, uh, approaching 200 works by Wayne.

Um, and, uh, we really are a major repository for, um, his work in every medium, and he will always be a central figure at this institution.

Rob: That's... that's great.

That's great.

Um, is there anything else you wanted to, you know, to say about, um, the loss from the art community during 2021, and... and... and, personally, for you, too?

Lial: Well, I think that one of the things that is important to remember, um, when great artists pass- Um, they're gone in their corporal body, um, but they have a legacy that remains, uh, forever.

Um, their works speak for them, in a way that continues to engage new generations, and people get to know them anew.

So, while they're gone in one sense, they're never gone, in the other.

Rob: I love that.

That's beautiful.

Um, and I also have to say, you know, you were very lucky to be able to have conversations and... and... and speak and say the things you wanted to say, that must be shared.

I encourage people to do that with anyone in their lives.

Lial: It's very important.

It helps, uh, closure, at any time.

Rob: It certainly does.

So, let's shift gears here, now, to future projects at the Crocker, talking about the future.

And those pieces will be there.

Uh, tell me what's coming up in the next 2022... 2023, all the years ahead... Lial: You know, one of the things- Rob: ...if you can!

Lial: One of the things that has been interesting about the pandemic is museums, um, tend to work three to five years in advance.

So, we're always looking way down the road at exhibitions and... and putting things together, especially exhibitions, uh, that travel.

Um, and... and we have a history at the Crocker of traveling exhibitions and writing major catalogs of exhibitions.

Um, and so, the pandemic has made some of that future planning a little more difficult, uh, made some staff a little more reticent in some of that planning.

Um, and I think what it has done, for me, is shifted my focus a bit.

So, when somebody would ask me, "What's coming up?"

I would have to stop and think, because I'm always thinking, "What's coming up in three years?"

I'm not necessarily thinking, "What's coming up in three months?"

Um, but the Crocker, this year, has some fabulous exhibitions.

And, uh, I am excited.

There's one coming up in, um, the spring of 20- excuse me, uh, early in the year in 2022, and that's called "The Candy Store," uh, and it's, uh, an exhibition about, uh, The Candy Store Gallery that was in Folsom, California.

Uh, the candy- It started out, actually, as a candy store.

Uh, Adeliza McHugh, um, opened a candy store.

The candy store didn't do well.

So then, she started selling art, um, and she... she... she kept selling candy, but her art really became what she became most known for.

And it became, um, a locus of, uh, Sacramento regional artists, uh, many of whom gained international importance...

Rob: Like?

Lial: Uh, so artists, such as, um, um, um, Arneson, um, um, Robert Arneson, the... the ceramicist taught at UC Davis, uh, Roy De Forest, um, um, Jim Nutt and Gladys Nilsson, who really are looked upon as Chicago artists, but both taught in Sacramento at, uh, Sacramento State University.

Um, they also, uh- She also had artists that never were associated with the Sacramento region, artists such as, uh, Luis Cruz Azaceta- a Cuban born artist centered in New York- or Dwight Yoakam, uh, an artist that I believe she was introduced to from Gladys Nilsson and Jim Nutt, uh, a folk artist who, uh, has, uh, recently had a major exhibition at the Metropolitan Museum in New York and... and is kind of being reclaimed as a... a great 20th century, um, master of his work.

Uh, this exhibition I'm really excited about, uh, in that, you know, we've done a catalog for it.

It's artists that we know well.

They're artists that are, you know, in our collection.

Uh, they're artists that are known, but one of the things that's always, frankly, bothered me about Sacramento is the fact that many people forget about Sacramento's art history, legacy, and importance.

They think about the Bay Area.

And so, for instance, we- talking about Wayne Thiebaud.

Uh, when I lived on the East Coast, I knew Wayne Thiebaud was a San Francisco artist, because that's what I'd always been told.

Rob: Wow!

Lial: I didn't realize it was actually Sacramento.

Uh, and the same is true with artists, such as Arneson and others.

People think of them as Bay Area artists.

They don't think of them as Sacramento Valley artists.

And that's something that the Crocker is trying to change.

We're really trying to, um, relocate Sacramento as a center of art historical importance, because it has been, and it continues to be.

There's a great art legacy in this region, and we want it better known across the United States.

Rob: It's so interesting you say that, Lial.

In one of the interviews I watched that Wayne Thiebaud had given, he said- they were talking about this, right?

- how it's either, like, the Bay Area or New York.

And Wayne said, "Well, that's just- That doesn't need to be the case," and then he applied a completely different thought process to it, analysis.

He said, "It's... it's not 'California mathematics,' it's not 'San Francisco mathematics.'

It's math!"

Do it everywhere that you are, and the importance of doing art in your community, which is what the Crocker stands for.

You know, art, here, at home.

Lial: Right.

Right.

And, you know, our... our collections are international in scope.

They date from prehistoric periods to the present.

Um, but we have made a real decision that, um, we need to, as... as being located in Sacramento's capital, we really need to be the home of California art.

And if you talk to collectors of California art, uh, we are.

Uh, we have more California on- art on view than any other museum in the world.

Um, and that's art from statehood to the present day.

Uh, it really is a... a... a wonderful legacy, and if you care about California and its art output, you have to care about the Crocker Art Museum.

Rob: That- Lial, that's fantastic, what you just said.

On display, California art, more than anywhere else in the world.

That, like, just deserves a pause and an applause for y'all doing that.

Um, I also want to ask you- and I apologize for this because you mentioned her name, um, and I did not ask you- about Joan Didion.

Did you have a connection there?

Lial: I did not.

I mean, I've read Joan Didion's work.

Uh, you know, she- I... I- She was born in Sacramento.

I think, you know, she was of California in her writing and... and in her being.

Um, but I don't believe, in the two decades I've lived in Sacramento, she had visited this city once, um, from what I've read.

So, um, she still has family in the area, and I know some of them, but I never had the pleasure of knowing her.

Rob: Mmhmm, but part of the art world, as well.

Lial: Yes, absolutely.

Rob: Lial, there is a... is a through line, for me, in all of... all of my programs that I...

I really like to touch on heart-to-heart, and that is with you right now, and it's... it's just things that must be shared.

And I'm curious that as we sit here today and just kind of take a minute, is there something on your heart, anything to do with you?

Because many people in this community- you were one of the very first people that... that we did this new format with when... when COVID started- um, have asked about you.

Um, you know, "How are things going with the Crocker?"

And... and I just- I'd like to know from you, personally, if there's anything that you would like to share.

Lial: You know, I...

I...

I think...

Rob: And lessons learned, anything you've learned.

Lial: You know, you've... you've left me a little tongue-tied, uh, Rob, and that's not a state that I'm often in.

Rob: I know.

That was my- My goal wasn't for that, but wa... was to think.

Lial: Right.

Well, I...

I...

I think that, you know, there are a couple of things.

Um, you know, this period has been difficult in many ways, but, you know, I work in museums, and I've made this my life's work because I believe in the power of museums to make people's lives better.

And even during times of, um, national strife, um, of... of- um, such as the pandemic, um, where so many people have been personally affected, um, I know the arts make personal lives better.

And I know that the Crocker is one of the places people that are facing great despair can come to get some solace.

Um, and I think that the one thing that gives me- um, you know, in talking about heart-to-heart- um, real pride and hope is the fact that the members of this community, the Crocker supporters, have stepped up to make sure that the museum is strong throughout this period, um, and have tried to do everything they can to make sure that the Crocker remains an institution that serves everyone, everyone that enters its doors or is touched by its programs, and that the reach can be stronger and wider, um, even during times of, um, of home isolation.

Rob: So, you got to feel that and see that, personally, that as... Lial: Absolutely.

Rob: ...people and communities and the world had to isolate, you felt the insulation of... of support.

Lial: Right.

But- And... and, just, the pride that we have presented programs, and continue to present programs, that mean enough to people that they are willing to sacrifice, to make sure that others can take advantage of them.

And that's heartwarming.

Rob: Very.

You mentioned something about, um, that the Crocker is a place where people can go in times of... of strife and... and pain and joy and... and- or anything, um, and feel.

And I want to tell you that when your doors were closed, there were times when- and I'm talking about when everybody's doors were closed- that I even drove by and sat in the parking area just to feel, because I knew I was close to something that... that allowed me to express my feelings.

Lial: Yeah.

And... and, you know, and... and you weren't alone.

There were other people that did that, as well, I've heard.

Um, but, you know, we know that, um, the experiences at the museum are really important, but we know that, um, any experience a person can have, uh, with art, uh, regardless of where it is, is important.

Um, and... and part of our community work is really about that, uh, and one of the things that we did early on in the pandemic that I'm very proud of is we put together art packs that we distributed to the food banks, uh, so that people could have art activities at home, uh, and create, um, works.

And, uh, we are not alone.

Other museums did this across the nation, um, but we were one of the first ones to do it.

We were one of the first institutions to really, um, flip to a virtual, um, path for presenting programs.

And I'm very proud of the staff for their innovation and their, um, commitment to serving as many people as possible, even in circumstances that were, um, less than what we consider ideal.

I mean, I work in museums because I think that the power of people seeing original works of art, you know, cannot be replicated on a screen.

Um, but I'd rather have it replicated on a screen, uh, than not have it at all.

Rob: Mmhmm.

I love that.

I love that.

You can see the world inside the Crocker.

Lial: Indeed.

Rob: You really, truly can.

And you definitely can see California, and you can see things all- from all around the globe that will... that'll blow your mind.

Lial: Yeah.

Rob: Lial, thank you.

Um, you are one of the masterpieces.

Lial: Well, thank you, Rob.

I don't know about that, but it's...

Rob: I do.

Lial: ...an honor to be here.

Rob: It's great to see you.

Lial Jones, director and CEO, Mort and Marcy Friedman Director and CEO of the Crocker Art Museum.

Great to see you, and thank you so much for joining me again here on Rob at Home, my friend.

Lial: Thank you.

Rob: Thank you.

♪♪ Annc: Murphy Austin Adams Schoenfeld, LLP, focusing on business law and commercial litigation, is proud to support Rob on the Road - Region Rising.

More information available at murphyaustin.com.