[dramatic adventurous music] [dramatic adventurous music continues] [dramatic adventurous music continues] [dramatic adventurous music continues] - Hello and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terrence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

While our studio is undergoing renovations, I've been going to a lot of comic conventions and while I enjoyed my three days at Baltimore's Comic-Con, and I love the downtown vibe of NC Comicon in Durham, my favorite convention to go to is still HeroesCon in Charlotte.

From the Comic Culture booth on the HeroesCon Floor, this episode focuses on serious collectors.

First up is Amanda Sheriff from the Overstreet Guide.

Amanda, you're at HeroesCon, not as a fan necessarily, but representing, is it Overstreet?

- Overstreet through Gemstone Publishing.

Gemstone is the publishing house.

Overstreet is the line of books.

So we have the Overstreet Comic Book Price Guide.

Our 53rd edition is gonna be going on sale on July 19th, and it is the bible of comic book collecting.

We have tens of thousands of comic books listed.

Each one is broken down by value per grade.

So from, you know, the poor condition up to a near mint, Plus we have articles about comic history.

We have our Overstreet Hall of Fame, all of the market reports from our advisors.

These are dealers, these are creators, these are people who are in auction houses who are collectors.

So it's a wealth of information.

- How is the internet and the fact that people can go to eBay and look at stuff, has that affected the way Gemstone has done business?

- eBay is not the best barometer for pricing because I can go on eBay right now and put a book on there and ask for a thousand dollars when everyone else wants 10 for it.

You can't really rely on that.

Obviously we do keep an eye on the sold listings.

We can see what books are actually selling for, and that, you know, we factor that in.

We use a lot of different avenues to price the books.

Like I said, we even talk to our advisors, but we also are looking at auctions and eBay's included in that.

As far as the internet goes, we introduced Overstreet Access last July.

So that is our online price guide.

So you've got all of the books listed like you have in the hard copy, but we also have collection management, which means that you can go in there, make a list of all the books that you own, what their grade would be, and we'll give you an idea of what that collection is worth.

You can organize it by your title, by your character, by your artist.

We also have another feature on there where you can connect with local comic shops by creating a want list.

And then if they're on Overstreet Access too, whenever they get a book in, you'll get notified that book is available near you.

So there's a lot of different features like that.

- So is this something where the values are updated in real time, so to speak?

- Yeah, for the Overstreet access, we are updating our values consistently and we're adding new books all the time.

And we just added 97,000 variant covers.

So that's gonna to keep going.

We're just gonna keep pumping in more and more information and keep it as up to date as possible.

- One of the books that you have over there is specifically how to collect comics.

So what is that?

Is it geared for the serious collector or maybe somebody who's at the con for the first time?

- Our goal with what we call the How To line, the How to Collect or Reference Guides, our goal is to have something in there that's gonna be, that's gonna appeal to new collectors and the seasoned collectors who have been doing this for a long time.

So we will have kind of your, some basic information, but we're also gonna get more niche.

We will maybe dig into a certain artist or a character and be like, "Here's some really cool stuff you should check out about this particular character."

Write about conventions.

Our second edition, I'm gonna write about what you should do when you're buying comics at a con.

Because for somebody who only goes to shops, they might not know some of the things you should know when you're coming here to do comics.

- What should I know?

Let's say I'm somebody who's going through the longboxes.

Should I, you know, like stop at the first place and buy everything all at once?

Or should I, you know, try and sample?

- The first thing you wanna do is have your want list ready and then it's good to shop around.

It's good to engage with dealers to build relationships and figure out who you feel like you can trust, and then, you know, go around the floor because you might find the same quality book at two different booths for two different prices.

Obviously you wanna save a little bit of money, right?

So that's an important thing.

Also, having a way to store your comics safely from here to your home because not everybody lives near the comic book convention.

I flew here.

A lot of other people did too.

So you're gonna have to have a way to get them home safely.

At this show in particular, you'll see people walking around with a cart or a suitcase or something.

If you're new to it, you might not think of that.

You might just have a bag on your back that you're just tossing books into it, that's not keeping them safe.

So it'll be tips like that.

- For fans, HeroesCon is an opportunity to find the proverbial needle in a haystack, with hundreds of vendors, it's possible to find a rare comic in a condition you'd like at a price you don't mind paying.

Delvin Williams is a collector who found just what he needed.

Delvin, you are a podcaster, but you're also a fan of comics.

So when you come to HeroesCon, in addition to doing panels and talking with your buddies, "the Longbox Crusade Podcast", do you get a chance to come and look through other people's longboxes, dealers longboxes, to find issues that you might want?

- Oh, I don't know if you've heard the story or not, but like my friend Dean just came by and shook my hand because I just completed my run of "Amazing Spider-Man".

- Really?

- Yes.

I have like the full run from 1 like to present.

And like I got, after your panel actually, I was like feeling pretty good and I went, I'm not gonna remember the guy's store, but like I just happened to see, 'cause I saw his display had a decent amount of "Amazing Spider-Man".

And so I went up and like, and sure enough I'm seeing 1 sit there with that ridiculous price tag, and then like right beside it was 2, and then right beside it was like 9 and those were the last three I needed.

And I looked, and I looked at my credit card, and then I called my wife and I made the purchase.

So yes, and like long story short, I've got, I've completed that collection, but I did get the opportunity to like walk through and peruse to pick up some more back issues and stuff.

- Now are you the type of collector who is, it's gotta be slabbed, graded, sealed up, like?

- No, like in fact I hate slabs.

Like I think it's impersonal.

It's like the idea of someone saying, "Hey, I'm a toy collector, look at all my toys.

", and like they're all packaged up.

It's like, to me that's not fun.

It's like I do get it.

Like it's literally for the value of it and it's like, hey, there's this untouched thing.

Even the packaging hasn't been touched and preserved.

I got it.

You don't have any opportunity to actually touch the thing that you bought.

And I think that's crazy.

If I want to, I feel like I should be able to take a comic book, even if it's a "Amazing Spider-Man 1" and flip through it and look at it and if it lowers the value, so be it.

But like, having it is cool and graded.

Trust me, I sit there and stare at this, I cannot believe I have this thing, but at the same time it's like I can't even take it and flip through it.

And like, because like you have to preserve the value of it by keeping it encased in plastic.

So yeah, I would rather have the raw copy.

Now that said, I got raw copies that are in bags and boards and like the older Silver Age, [laughs] I'm afraid to look at 'em because I think that I'm gonna tear 'em.

So I know there's a little bit of hypocrisy in that, but at least I have the ability to do it if I wanted to.

- Now are you looking for the best condition or just to have the book itself?

- I just was looking to have the book itself.

Like, as long as my main thing was, if it presents well, that's cool, because I just, you know, I mean, I think everyone likes to have pretty things and like, and I don't care if there's a little, you know, nicks and frays on it, 'cause that means at some point someone had it and used it or stored it somewhere.

But as long as it's not like just like an egregiously ripped cover where you can't even tell what the cover it was, then I don't mind.

Some of my collection, I do have some that like, you know, are high quality, you know, in the sixes and sevens, then there are some where, you know, they're like, you know, 1.0 or 1.5.

That's cool.

It's just cool to have them.

[light upbeat music] - Comic vendors are comic fans for Larry Perez, selling his high-end collection isn't just about making money.

What's the difference between just being a collector and being somebody who has a collection that people are interested in buying?

- I don't know how well got the collection.

My collection are all high-grade collection.

Since I was a little boy, nine-years-old, I was trained to collect the best of the best.

So I have a half-brother who's 15 years older than me and he showed me, he trained me always go for the best comics.

So that's what it is, since 1970.

Just collect all the high-grade comics that were out there and it was like a mission.

Because at that time they were not really as popular as today.

So the only reason why I started selling my comics now is, obviously I'm a collector, but I like to have the satisfaction of people telling me, "Wow, I appreciate your comics, your grades.

We're looking for this in high-grade, we can't find it anywhere."

So I'm having a lot of fun doing the convention.

- I know as a collector, sometimes it's tough to part with your babies, so to speak.

You know, you spent time looking for that great, let's say "New Gods #1".

I think you had that here last year.

You know, so when it comes time to sell, is there ever that little voice that says, "No hold onto this one"?

- It is.

Believe me, it is.

One thing that I was shown or trained, it's whenever it's a key issue, like number one or a first appearance, or origin, they trained me to buy five to 10 covers.

So I'm coming to a point where I'm down to one or two covers.

But it is.

But I have the satisfaction of helping other customers that are looking for that.

I mean, I've been doing this for more than half a century.

- If there's someone watching who is interested in collecting and you're a serious collector, are there tips for negotiating with someone who's got a comic?

I mean obviously there's a market value for a book, but is there room to negotiate that price so that way they feel like they're getting a good deal?

- Oh yeah, there's always room.

There's always room.

Especially the way I sell, is the more you buy, the better price I'm gonna give you.

So I start at 10% and if they buy more comics, I go up, even up to 30% off.

So that's the way I deal with my comics.

Even though they're high grade, they're hard to find.

But I got the satisfaction of, you know, making the money.

- When you go to a convention and you're looking for a comic, do you find it's better to wait till the last day, right before everybody closes?

- That's what everybody does.

[chuckles] But then again, if I find what I needed in high-grade, I was willing to spend the money because I knew with time, that comic would go up in value.

I knew since the beginning what I was looking for.

- So you can get a deal if you wait till the end sometimes?

- Yes.

Yes you do.

I mean, right now I have like 30 people telling me, since yesterday, "We'll be back Sunday afternoon, we'll be back Sunday afternoon."

I know what they're coming for, and if I cannot, I mean, if I still can make some money, I'll sell them the cover.

- Is it easier to pack it up or to maybe sell it for a couple of bucks less?

- Yeah.

[chuckles] Especially when there's an 11 hour drive.

[chuckles] - For serious collectors, buying rare and flawless condition books is an investment.

In recent years, several companies have started offering third party grading of comic conditions, which may increase value greatly and even provide protection during market fluctuations.

There were several grading services at HeroesCon.

I spoke with Sean Rutan from Hakes Auctions.

One of the things about HeroesCon is that it is great for a serious collector.

And I know that you are with Hakes, which is an interesting business.

It is helping collectors sell their collection, if I have it right?

- Yes, essentially.

So Hakes has been around since '67, Ted Hake created it.

And back then, the focus was related to Ted's personal collection, his personal love, which was the political side of things.

But it evolved throughout the course of, let's say the seventies through the eighties and then the nineties, all of American pop culture.

So toys, comic books, sports memorabilia, all that stuff, movies, all that.

So you get a wide range of collectors, but what you find is the common thread is that they all have a love for whatever it is that they collect.

And where it becomes difficult in is you have an emotionally charged collection.

When it comes time to move that collection, how do you do it?

You know what I mean?

And sometimes the person that like collected it is gone, or in this case maybe they're not gone, but they realize they've reached a certain stage of life where they have to move something along, or they're earlier on in their career, or they're in their hobby, and they want to leverage into something else, something bigger.

So we'll get all different types of collectors, all different types of scenarios.

And then it's our job to be professional in the way that we evaluate what they're looking at, evaluate, you know, what they can expect, and then put it to the market to not just maximize the collection for their sake, but also for the buyers that want it as well, so that it moves on to a new steward.

If that makes sense.

- Absolutely.

And it's interesting because people have collections and I know like, you know, like you said, someone could pass away.

We have a preconceived notion of what the value of our collection should be because there's always that one story about that guy who finds this and it's worth this much money.

And "If mom only hadn't thrown it out, I'd be a millionaire today."

But the majority of comics aren't worth that much money.

- That's correct.

- So when you're dealing with somebody who has a high expectation, how do you sort of temper it with reality?

Because like you said, there is that emotional connection to the collection that doesn't necessarily bear with what the market is thinking.

- Hands down that is the most difficult part of the job, is letting people down lightly because it's not just about the monetary value of anything.

It's something that's an indescribable value to them.

So you have to make sure you respect that when you're talking to people.

And then the other side of that coin is you have somebody that thinks it's not worth anything at all.

Like my specialty, I focus on original comic art, so I deal with more one-of-a-kind things.

But even in that niche hobby, color guides, for example, I love color guides.

I collect color guides.

I love them because I've reached a point now that in the hobby where I can get a mediocre page of original art or I can get a relatively key classic cover color guide, I'm gonna pick the color guide.

Now they have value because guys like me are going after it.

But if you were to take that same color guide even 10, 15 years ago, it has almost zero, maybe $10.

Like the value is always moving.

So, to go to your original question, maybe it was valuable 20 years ago.

It's a "Howdy Doody" collection or something like that, you know what I mean?

Well, all those collectors are aging out and they're selling off, they're not buying anymore.

So now you have someone that, not only do they have an emotional connection to it, but it, at one point did have value and now the value is gone.

Well, how do you have that conversation?

And unfortunately, I don't have a great answer for that question because every single time I encounter it, it's always uncomfortable, it's never fun.

So I guess if there's any nugget of wisdom in there, it's collect what you love and when the time comes to move it, wherever the chips fall is where they are.

I mean, that's the best thing I can tell you because at least you loved the collection throughout and then you're not focused on the monetary value on the backside.

- I'm a fan of the show "Antiques Roadshow", right here on PBS.

One of the things that I notice is that things that are collectible with a certain generation lose their value when the next generation comes along.

- Yes.

- So I'm looking now at some of the auction sites and I start to see that video game cartridges are now the big collectible thing.

It could be the original Nintendo.

And people are selling it because it's still got the original box and it's worth money.

Do you see the audience for comics or original comic art as aging out as the new collectibles start to take hold?

- That's a nuanced answer to a nuanced question.

So the answer is no, but the answer is also yes.

So the good thing about comic books and comic art is that the IP keeps getting refreshed.

So I used "Howdy Doody" as an example.

"Hopalong Cassidy", things like that.

Even like for my generation, when I think about "Thundercats", maybe even "GI Joe", "He-Man", they keep trying to reboot the IP, but it doesn't catch hold like it did then.

That, to me, is gonna be a much more difficult thing to sell as a collection in 50 years than let's say, "Spider-Man", that's had four movies that were massive hits, even though "Spider-Man" predates those by three decades.

So the IP keeps getting reset to where the marketplace, even though one generation ages out, like for example, this is the yes answer to what you asked.

If I have a Bob Kane or a Dick Sprang "Batman" piece of art from the forties or fifties, it's valuable because it's old and it's valuable because it's original "Batman".

But the collectors who read those books, they're not actively buying anymore.

So you might see some stagnation in the value of the art itself.

From a historic standpoint, it's great, but for right now in what's hot in the market, it's not on fire.

Whereas Jim Lee "Batman" art or something along those lines, it still is hot because it's modern, it's relevant today, to today's collectors.

So you have the character that will retain its value because the IP is successfully rebooted over and over again.

But the artists themselves and the stories related to those, you can see fluctuation in the values that both go up and then can go down depending on what's hot at the time.

- Peter Rowe is a collector who has shifted from buying comics to buying original comic art.

I know that the market has gone crazy for original comic art and I think back to the Frank Miller cover of "Dark Knight #1", selling for well over a million dollars, and then like the next week, another piece sold that topped that record.

So how do you sort of make sure that you can get a piece that is what you want, but at a price that isn't going to, you know, make you have to sell a house, a car and maybe a boat.

- It's better to buy the art from the artist than from an auction house or a dealer because of the markup.

Or there are a lot of people that do deals sort of under the, that don't go through auction houses, but just between collectors, and so those could be trades of pieces.

There's no money that exchanges hands, but the art exchanges hands.

And then there may be just deals of, you know, somebody selling the art that doesn't have to go through those places.

But you always feel good buying the art from the artist because you know the money is going to them, and they are the creator, the owner, the originator of the art.

It's hard to tell what some pieces are really worth.

because the art, if you're involved in bidding on something at an auction, there's that "you gotta have it" fever that takes place in any kind of like, that kind of auction or gambling activity.

And so the price can go up quite quickly and you find yourself bidding way beyond your budget.

So you have to be very strict about what your budget is.

Having been there, I've paid more than I should have for pieces.

And so you have to kind of, so what I do is I kind of withdraw and just watch my money and say, "Okay, I can only afford to buy X or Y.

Don't buy other things and just be careful."

Be more focused in your collecting.

- If you could give advice to a collector, whether it's comics or original art, what would you tell them that would help them along the way?

- So if you know the period of piece that you're looking for, if you know the character or the issue or the group, or the team.

If you know the event.

You can look at some of the auction houses and see what those prices have been for that kind of art.

So you can kind of ballpark it.

Generally though, if you go to the artist, you're gonna get a much more reasonable, you're gonna get a much reasonable, more reasonable price than if you go to a dealer.

The dealer has that markup.

because he's employing a lot of people.

He pays a certain price to get that piece from another owner or from artists, or that piece may have exchanged a number of times, and they're looking at the auction houses to see what prices go for.

And so they're tracking their prices.

So there's a little bit of being the intelligent consumer and buyer beware of, "Okay, this piece went for generally how much money, I'm generally interested, this is how much I can afford, this is what I want."

And you also have to decide whether you're looking for pieces that are published, or unpublished.

Published pieces, as you just pointed out with the Frank Miller piece have really gone up quite a bit ever since during the pandemic, although things have kind of, this year things have stabilized a little bit, I think, and it's less of a feeding frenzy.

- Collectors are divided on slabbed comics, that is comics that are graded and then sealed in a case to preserve their value.

I asked fan and dealer Mike Fonseca, his thoughts on high value comics.

I'm the type of collector who looks for what I call reader copies.

I like to dive in, as long as the cover's on and the pages are all intact, I'm pretty happy with the comic.

It doesn't have to be, you know, that 9.8 or something like that.

So you said you're a collector, are you, again, if it's a key book, you wanna get the nicest one possible or are you...?

- I do if I can afford it.

I started collecting more Golden Age, personally.

And I'll be honest, I'm pretty much whatever condition it's in, just to be able to have it.

And I don't do slabs in my own collection because I want to be able to look at it.

I want to be able to read it.

Sometimes if it's an expensive book, I'm like, "Well, I'm sure there's a trade paperback of this somewhere and I'm not gonna handle the book."

A lot of times people are like, "Well I'm gonna get it slabbed to preserve it."

Well you can preserve it without going through that whole process.

To me, the reason for slabbing is 'cause you want to turn it around and sell it.

And I get books slabbed to sell so that I don't have to argue about condition with people.

But in general, I don't get it.

But there are some people that's all they do.

But to me, once it's in a slab, it's a commodity.

You don't know what's in there, it doesn't even matter, but you're like, "Oh, this is worth a fortune."

As a collector, something that's a little bit of, I don't know, a bummer about that to me.

- It's sort of like taking something that you enjoy because it's fun and to take that and turn it into that commodity it seems to be taking the joy out of it.

- I see that a lot on social media and typically with younger people or people who are new to the hobby of collecting comics and they're so concerned about 9.8s.

And it's funny because really, to me, I'm like the 9.8 is only important because of what it's worth.

And there is a weird thing that from a 9.6 to a 9.8, the value is exponentially bigger.

Which is just weird because it's like from a 9 to a 9.2, to a 9.4, it's not that big a deal.

But you could have a 9.6 and a 9.8, it could be five times as much, and you're like, what?

- And I would imagine too, you know, if the cover's in great shape, but the insides, I know that page condition is a thing where if the pages aren't quite as white as they were when they were new, now the book's not going to grade that well.

But if the cover is sealed up and you never open it up, you'll never know that the inside is sawdust.

- Exactly.

That's what, I've thought that too.

Like why do you even care at that point?

Except that you know, the description on the thing.

The other one that gets me too is people buy a slab and then decide they wanna get it autographed, so then they break it open, they get it autographed, reslab it.

It's not like slabbing it's free.

So that just blows my mind.

And then you're taking the risk that the minute all these people touch it and even sign it, you may not get the grade you had on it before you went to get it signed.

So I'm kind of like, shouldn't you just start all over rather than break open the thing that you paid for and you probably paid a pretty penny, and then go for, you know, and then go through the whole process again.

And then there's the time it takes for it to get graded and then come back to you.

Sometimes I'm just like, it's a little bit much.

- If comics are an investment, Ashley Cotter-Cairns is like an investment broker.

What does Goldin do?

- Goldin's a collectibles marketplace.

So we are the world's leading marketplace for sports collectibles, for pop culture, and now comic books.

And we also do things like Pokemon cards and pretty much like anything that people collect, we're starting to sell for people.

So we're an auction platform, effectively.

People can sign their collectibles for sale and we get the best possible prices for them.

- So when you're at a convention like Heroes, are you trying to help your existing clients by maybe selling something?

Or are you trying to find that collector who's looking for an outlet for their collection?

Maybe they're downsizing or maybe they need to, you know, monetize something?

- I like to think we're just helping people to imagine a different way of doing business.

So when people come to a convention, they may be thinking, "Well maybe I'll find a dealer to give me cash for this box that I'm dragging along on a little trolley."

And they maybe are leaving a lot of money on the table because, you know, you see a wad of cash, you're like, "Oh, I want that right now."

Whereas the people who know what they're doing take their time, they get the best possible commission rate from an auction company.

They're prepared to be patient and wait for people to bid up their stuff.

In a sense, you're taking the easy money now or you are doing the smart money later.

And that's what we're trying to do.

We're trying to get people the most money for their collections.

And it could even be the dealers.

Like we are talking to dealers all the time, dealers who are dragging their stuff from show to show, and they just don't wanna ship all that stuff back.

Or maybe they're short of cash.

Goldin can help by marketing their stuff online.

And we have a fantastic audience of seasoned collectors who know what they're looking for.

- And you say "seasoned collectors", that means that your team has to know what they're talking about.

You've gotta be able to look at the condition of the comic, know the what issues are the key issues.

So how do you keep up to date with, you know, the trends and making sure that you're able to locate that gem and turn it into a solid investment.

- Trends come and go, but the blue chip stuff is always going to be popular.

I don't really think it's worth chasing the tail of the dragon, like trying to find that hot book that's gonna be worth something in a year's time or six months time, or 'cause of some movie.

We've seen them and come and go, crash and burn.

People buy at the top of the market, they're left holding the bag at the end of the day.

We'd rather advise people on the stuff that's always gonna be popular.

But you asked about expertise, everybody in the company is an expert about collectibles in their field.

So we can look through someone's collection and say, "Okay, 90% of the value is in 10% of these books, the rest, go get your cash.

But we'll get you the max dollars for these ones."

- That's all the time we have for this episode of "Comic Culture".

Join us next time for part two of our trip to HeroesCon in Charlotte.

Until then, I'll see you soon.