>> COMING UP NEXT ON "DIALOGUE," VETERAN JOURNALIST ROBERT MACNEIL TALKS ABOUT HIS LIFE, HIS DECISION TO BECOME AN AMERICAN, AND THE CURRENT STATE OF THE NEWS PROFESSION.

THAT'S "DIALOGUE."

STAY TUNED.

>> HELLO.

WELCOME TO "DIALOGUE."

I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.

A WELCOME IS AS WELL TO THOSE OF YOU LIVING ON NPR NEWS 91 AND THE WORLDWIDE WEB.

TONIGHT WE BRING YOU ONE OF A SERIES OF CONVERSATIONS CONDUCTED AT THE 2005 SUN VALLEY WRITERS' CONFERENCE.

SINCE 1995, THE CONFERENCE HAS BROUGHT TOGETHER SOME OF THE NATION'S BEST-KNOWN WRITERS, POETS, FILMMAKERS AND PHILOSOPHYERS TO ENGAGE AN AUDIENCE IN THOUGHTFUL CONVERSATION.

ONE OF THOSE AUTHORS IS ROBERT MACNEIL.

MOST OF YOU KNOW MACNEIL AS THE JOURNALIST COFOUNDED WITH JIM LEHRER THE PBS NIGHTLY NEWSCAST CALLED "MACNEIL-LEHRER NEWSHOUR," BUT MACNEIL IS ALSO AN AUTHOR AND PLAYWRIGHT AND A STUDENT OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

NOW THE CANADIAN BROADCASTER BECAME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN IN 1997, JUST AS ANOTHER CANADIAN JOURNALIST, PETER JENNINGS DID A FEW YEARS LATER.

WELCOME TO IDAHO.

>> THANK YOU, MARCIA.

>> I WANT TO START BY READING A BLUSH FROM YOUR BOOK "LOOKING FOR MY COUNTRY."

THIS PERSON WRITES, THIS IS THE PSYCHOLOGICAL JOURNEY OF A SOMEWHAT COOL CANADIAN WHO BECOMES OVER TIME TO BECOME DEEPLY AFFECTED BY THE HUMANITY OF AMERICA IN WAYS HE HAD NOT ANTICIPATED.

IT IS VERY MOVING BEING ON THE JOURNEY WITH HIM.

OF COURSE, THIS IS FROM FELLOW CANADIAN, FELLOW BROADCAST JOURNALIST, PETER JENNINGS.

>> OH, PETER JENNINGS.

YEAH.

YES, THAT WAS VERY NICE THAT HE WROTE THAT.

>> AS WE DO THIS INTERVIEW, WE'RE ONLY A FEW WEEKS FROM HIS DEATH.

>> YEAH.

>> YOUR THOUGHTS ON HIS PASSING?

>> WELL, IT'S VERY SAD THAT SOMEBODY SO YOUNG -- NOT ONLY VERY YOUNG, RELATIVELY NOWADAYS, 67, BUT HE LOOKED SO MUCH YOUNGER.

AND IT'S JUST VERY SAD.

I FIND IT -- I'M STILL SURPRISED THAT HE ONLY HAD AN UPPER RESPIRATORY INFECTION IN JANUARY WHICH PREVENTED HIM FROM GOING WITH THE OTHER ANCHORS TO COVER THE TSUNAMI IN INDONESIA, THEN SILENCE, AND THEN SUDDENLY IN APRIL HE'S GOT FULL-BLOWN LUNG CANCER.

IT'S SHOCKING AND VERY SAD.

>> AT ONE POINT YOU ACTUALLY TURNED DOWN THE ANCHOR JOB.

>> I DID.

>> FOR ABC.

>> WELL, ONE OF THE ANCHOR JOBS.

THEY WERE PLAYING AROUND -- THEY'D HAD BARBARA WALTERS AND HARRY REASONER DOING IT, AND THAT WORKED OUT, THE CHEMISTRY BETWEEN THEM.

AND THEY WANTED TO REPLACE IT WITH FOR A WHILE THREE ANCHORS.

AND THEY WANTED ME TO BE ONE OF THEM.

ONE WAS PETER, ONE WAS FRANK REYNOLDS, AND THE OTHER ONE WAS ME -- WAS I. AND I THOUGHT, NOW WAIT A MINUTE, THERE'S ONLY ABOUT 21 TO 22 MINUTES OF NEWS TIME OUT OF THE HALF HOUR, AND THE ANCHOR'S SHARE OF THAT MAY BE ABOUT THREE MINUTES, BECAUSE THE REST IS FILM PIECES, EVERYTHING ELSE.

SO I WOULD -- I COULD VISUALIZE MYSELF AS I REMEMBERED FROM MY TIME AT NBC, BEING A BIT OF AN ANCHOR, I COULD IMAGINE MYSELF SAYING TO THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, HEY, WAIT, I NEED 19 SECONDS FOR THIS PIECE, AND YOU'VE ONLY GIVEN ME 15 SECONDS.

I WASN'T GOING TO SPEND MY LIFE SQUABBLING OVER THAT KIND OF THING.

GROI DIDN'T LIKE THAT ANCHORING VERY MUCH, AND IT WAS A NOT TO GO THAT I NEVER REGRETTED, BECAUSE JIM AND I HAD WITHIN PUBLIC TELEVISION THE FREEDOM TO DO IT THE WAY WE WANTED TO DO IT, AND WE WEREN'T UNDER THE COUPL COMPULSION IN COMMERCIAL TV BY RATINGS.

>> YOU INSTITUTED THE MONIKER WHICH JENNINGS AND BROKAW AND THE OTHER TOOK ON.

>> WE WERE TIRED OF BEING PUT THROUGH TELEVISION HOOPS BY PRODUCERS WHO WANTED TO MAKE IT JAZZY.

THERE WAS ONE TIME DOING A WEEKLY SHOW, MAGAZINE SHOW, AND I WAS GOING TO DO AN INTERVIEW IN SAN FRANCISCO WITH MELVIN BELLI, THE LAWYER WHO SORT OF REVOLUTIONIZED SORT LAW, AND TO DO IT THE PRODUCER HAD ME DRIVING BACK AND FORTH IN A CONVERTIBLE ACROSS THE GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE WITH A FILM FROM THE HELICOPTER DRIVING ALONGSIDE UNTIL THE POLICE CHASED US AWAY.

THEN THE NEXT SHOT WAS IN BELL LIE''S -- BELLI'S APARTMENT, AND I WALKED DOWN STEPS OUT ON TO A PORCH, AND THERE WAS THE RELATE HOVERING OUTSIDE, AND BLOWING ALL THE TULIPS AND DAFFODILS AND THE LITTLE LADIES' GARDENS DOWN THE HILL TO HELL.

>> THOSE WERE THE YEARS WHEN ANCHORS AND REPORTERS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE VERY INTERACTIVE.

>> YEAH.

>> BACK TO PETER JENNINGS FOR JUST A MOMENT, MR.

JENNINGS BECAME A CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY IN 2001, AFTER SEPTEMBER 11.

AND YOU, IN 1997, A FEW YEARS BEFORE.

>> UH-HUH.

>> DID YOU EVER TALK TO HIM ABOUT YOUR MUTUAL JOURNEY AS CANADIANS TO THAT DECISION?

>> WE NEVER REALLY TALKED DIRECTLY ABOUT IT, NO.

HE KNEW THAT I'D DONE IT.

AND IT'S FUNNY ABOUT CANADIANS.

SOMEBODY FROM THE IMMIGRATION SERVICE TOLD ME YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS RENEWING A GREEN CARD THAT CANADIANS ARE MOST RESISTANT OF ALL THE IMMIGRANTS TO THE U.S.

TO BECOME CITIZENS, PARTLY BECAUSE A LOT OF US COME HERE THINKING WE'RE GOING TO GO BACK, AND THE OTHER PART OF IT IS THAT A SORT OF FUNDAMENTAL PART OF CANADIAN IDENTITY IS -- WELL, WE'RE NOT AMERICAN, YOU KNOW.

WE LOVE AMERICA, OUR LIFESTYLE, OUR VALUES ARE VERY SIMILAR, AT LEAST THEY USED TO BE MORE SIMILAR, AND -- AND BUT WE'RE NOT AMERICAN.

SO IF YOU'RE TALKING TO AN ENGLISHMAN OR AUSTRALIAN OR SOMETHING, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

WELL, WE'RE NOT AMERICAN.

AND SO IT'S SO MUCH PART OF CANADIAN SELF-DEFINITION, THAT IT'S HARDER TO LET GO OF.

>> YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR BOOK, THIS WONDERFUL BOOK, "LOOKING FOR MY COUNTRY," THAT SEPTEMBER 11 AFFECTED YOU IN AN ALMOST MYSTICAL WAY IN THAT IT WAS REALLY THEN THAT YOU FELT YOU'D BECOME AN AMERICAN IN YOUR HEART.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

YES, SEPTEMBER 11 MOVED ME, AS IT DID EVERYBODY, AND WE LIVE IN NEW YORK, IN MANHATTAN, AND WE FELT THE WAY EVERYBODY FELT ABOUT IT.

AND I FELT SUDDENLY VERY DEFENSIVE ABOUT THIS COUNTRY, AS ONE DOES ABOUT ONE'S HOME, AND MY USUAL SORT OF IRONIC DISTANCE FROM A LOT OF AMERICAN THINGS, AS PEOPLE FEEL WHO ARE IN CANADA OR BRITAIN OR WHEREVER, JUST A LITTLE -- SOME NOT EVERY ASPECT OF AMERICAN DISPLAYS OF AMERICAN PATRIOTISM, AND SO ARE CONGENIAL, JUST BECAUSE OF THE WAY WE WERE BROUGHT UP.

THERE'S NO COMPETITIVE PATRIOTISM IN CANADA, OR IN BRITAIN, THE TWO COUNTRIES I KNOW BEST BESIDES THE STATES.

AND BECOME COMPETITIVE ABOUT HOW PATRIOTIC YOU ARE IS SOMEHOW DISTASTEFUL TO THEM.

BUT FOR A WHILE AFTER SEPTEMBER 11 THAT -- THAT LITTLE IRONIC DISTANCE DISSOLVED IN ME, AND I WAS VERY MOVED.

>> INDEED ALTHOUGH YOU HAD LEFT THE "NEWS HOUR" YEARS BEFORE PART OF THE CATHARSIS WAS GOING BACK AND DOING PIECES AFTER SEPTEMBER 11.

>> AFTER TWO DAYS BEING GLUED TO THE TELEVISION, I FELT LIKE SO MANY PEOPLE, I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING, TO BE USEFUL, BECAUSE ONE FELT AWFULLY USELESS JUST WATCHING THIS THING HAPPENING, UNFOLDING.

AND SO I CALLED JIM, AND SAID COULD I HELP.

AND HE SAID, YEAH, COME AND DO SOME PIECES.

SO I DID FOR A FEW MONTHS.

I DID SOME PIECES.

AND I DIDN'T THINK THEY WERE VERY GOOD.

WHEN I SAW THEM ON THE AIR, OR SAW THEM REPEATED, I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, IN A FEW YEARS, I'VE FORGOTTEN HOW TO DO THIS.

>> WHY HAD YOU LEFT ORIGINALLY?

>> I LEFT BECAUSE I'D JUST DONE IT LONG ENOUGH.

>> TOO MUCH.

>> I HAD DONE IT FOR 20 YEARS.

AND I HAD -- YOU KNOW, I'M OLDER THAN JIM, AND DONE MORE THAN 20 YEARS OF DAILY JOURNALISM BEFORE THAT.

SO ALTOGETHER IT WAS 40 YEARS.

FOR A GUY WHO HADN'T SET OUT TO BE A JOURNALIST IN THE FIRST PLACE I THOUGHT 40 YEARS WAS ENOUGH.

AND I WANT TO GO WHILE I WAS STILL REASONABLY HEALTHY, I WANTED TO GO AND MAKE MY TIME MY OWN AND DO WHAT I WANTED TO DO.

>> WITH THE DEATH OF PETER JENNINGS, WITH THE DEPARTURE OF MR.

BROKAW AND MR.

RATHER, JIM LEHRER IS NOW ESSENTIALLY THE DEAN OF NIGHTLY NEWS BROADCASTING.

I MEAN, THE MEDIA PUNDITS KEEP SAYING, OH, IT'S THE DEATH OF NIGHTLY NEWS AND EVERYTHING, BUT THERE IS A FOURTH ANCHOR, AND HE'S STILL AT IT.

>> HE'S BEEN -- IN ANOTHER SENSE, HE'S BEEN THE DEAN FOR A LONG TIME.

I MEAN, HE WAS THE ONE THAT THE PARTIES HAVE TRUSTED REPEATEDLY TO ANCHOR PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES, FOR INSTANCE, BECAUSE HE HAS A DESERVED REPUTATION OF BEING UTTERLY FAIR.

BUT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT NIGHTLY NEWS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

THEY'VE GOTTEN FLUFFIER AND OFTEN SILLIER, AND CERTAINLY SOFTER, UNDER THE PRESSURE FROM CABLE NEWS, WHICH IS AFFECTING, NOT ONLY OUR INDUSTRY, BUT NEWSPAPERS AND EVERYTHING, TOO.

AND SO THE FUTURE'S A BIT UNCERTAIN.

I THINK THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF FLUFF AROUND, AND THE WHOLE AUDIENCE IS THE -- IT'S SUCH A DIFFERENT CONTEXT FOR TELEVISION NEWS THAN IT USED TO BE 40 YEARS AGO, WHEN I FIRST BEGAN.

>> WHEN IT WAS THE ONLY SOURCE OF NEWS FOR -- >> YEAH.

IN EACH 12EU, THERE WERE ONLY FOUR CITIES, OR FEWER, OR FOUR IF YOU INCLUDED THE EDUCATIONAL STATION.

AS THE AVERAGE FAMILY TYPICALLY THEN SAT DOWN TO A NOURISHING MEAL COOKED BY MOM IN THOSE DAYS, SO THE AVERAGE FAMILY SAT DOWN TO A NOURISHING MEAL OF NEWS COOKED BY WALTER CRONKITE.

>> UNCLE WALTER.

>> OR CHET AND DAVID WHO I WORKED WITH.

AND IT WAS AN -- IT WAS TELEVISION NEWS WAS A NOVELTY THEN.

TELEVISION WAS A NOVELTY.

AND THE WORLD WAS A VERY DANGEROUS AND EXCITING PLACE IN THE DECADE OF THE 1960'S AND 1970'S.

>> WHEN YOU WROTE "THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME" MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO, AT THE END OF THE BOOK YOU SAID THAT YOU HOPED WITH THE COMPETITION TO NETWORK CHANNELS THAT IN THE END QUALITY WOULD WIN OUT, BECAUSE THE NETWORKS WOULD HAVE THIS COMPETITION.

>> UH-HUH.

>> HAS THAT COME TO PASS, OR HAS QUALITY CONTINUED TO DECLINE?

>> WELL, IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DEFINE QUALITY.

I MEAN, IN SOME WAYS THE NETWORK NEWS IS BETTER BECAUSE THE TECHNOLOGY MAKES IT POSSIBLE TO BE INSTANTLY EVERYWHERE, BUT NETWORK NEWS, SOUND BITES HAVE GOTTEN SHORTER.

THEY'RE MORE -- THEY'RE LOOKING MORE AND MORE FOR SOFTER STORIES.

THEY'VE REDUCED THEIR FOREIGN COVERAGE, IN SPITE OF IRAQ AND SO ON.

AND IT IS -- IT IS -- IT ISN'T -- IT DOESN'T VIEW ITSELF -- WHEN NETWORK NEWS FIRST BEGAN WITH NBC AND CBS PARTICULARLY, WITH ABC AS A SORT OF POOR COUSIN, THE IDEA OF THOSE JOURNALISTS WAS WE'RE GOING TO MAKE TELEVISION JOURNALISM AS SERIOUS AND TO HAVE THE VALUES OF THE BEST NEWSPAPERS, THE BEST PRINT IN THE COUNTRY, IN THE WIRE SERVICES.

AND FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS, I THINK THAT HELD.

AND NOW THE MAIN -- THE NETWORKS, NEWS DEPARTMENTS, ARE NO LONGER OWNED OR RUN BY THE PEOPLE WHO FOUNDED THEM.

THEY'RE OWNED BY BIG CORPORATIONS IN WHICH NEWS IS NO LONGER -- HAS THE VALUE OF SORT OF PRESS TO MY KNOWLEDGOUS LOSS LEADER, BUT EXPECTED TO BE THE NEWS DEPARTMENT IS EXPECTED TO BE A PROFIT CENTER AS WELL.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO RUN THOSE BIG COMPANIES LIKE VIACOM AND GOOD EVENING DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE -- G.E.

DON'T GIVE A VALUE ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THE NEWS THEY WANT ON IT.

WHAT THEY WANT IS A RATINGS PERFORMANCE, AND THAT'S A VERY DIFFERENT WORLD FROM THE ONE IN WHICH THESE PROGRAMS WERE FOUNDED.

>> DID YOU ANTICIPATE THAT THE "NEWSHOUR" HAS HAD THE STAYING POWER IT'S HAD?

>> WE ALWAYS HOPED IT WOULD AT FIRST.

WE HAD TO PROMISE OUR STAFF, WE CAN'T PROMISE YOU CAREERS HERE, WE'LL ONLY KNOW YEAR BY YEAR IF WE'RE BEING REVIEWED, IN THOSE YEARS A MAJORITY VOTE OF THE STEFG STATIONS.

NOW WE'VE FOUND THAT IT HAS STAYING POWER, MORE THAN 30 YEARS.

JIM AND I ARE LOOKING A LOT OF TALK.

I'M STILL HIS PARTNER IN MACNEIL-LEHRER PRODUCTIONS, AND WIN DOING A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE FUTURE O OF THE "NEWSHOUR" AND WE WOULD HOPE THAT A PROGRAM, AS SERIOUS AS IT IS, WILL CONTINUE TO BE A KIND OF AN ANCHOR, IF I MAY USE THAT WORD, OF THE PUBLIC TELEVISION EVENING SCHEDULE, HOWEVER FRIVOLOUS THE COMPETITION GETS.

>> MANY PEOPLE MAY NOT REALIZE THAT YOUR FIRST CAREER, SO TO SPEAK, WAS AS AN ACTOR.

AND YOU THOUGHT, IN FACT, YOU WERE GOING TO BE AN ACTOR.

YOU STILL WRITE PLAYS.

YOU WRITE THAT IT WAS WHEN YOU WERE READING "HAMLET" THAT YOU BECAME AWARE THAT YOU HAD THIS "WORD HUNGRY," THAT THAT CAME FROM THE STAGE.

>> YEAH.

I JUST -- WELL, I THINK IT HAD COME ACTUALLY FROM -- THE SEEDS HAD BEEN PLANNED IN MY CHILDHOOD, WHEN, AS I SAY IN "WORDSTRUCK" IN FACT THAT'S THE WAY IT OPENS, MY MOTHER ON A WINTER READING READING RUNT LOUIS STEVENSON'S "WINDY NIGHTS," AND I THINK ALL THOSE SEEDS WERE PLANTED THEN, BUT THEY BEGAN TO BLOSSOM IN MY TEENAGE YEARS WHEN I BECAME BESOTTED WITH SHAKESPEARE.

I MEAN, I JUST -- PARTLY THERE WAS A SHORT OF VAIN GLORIOUS THING ABOUT WOULDN'T I SOUND GOOD SAYING THOSE WORDS ON THE STAGE, BUT I JUST LOVED IT.

IN FACT THE PEOPLE WHO DID "THE STORY OF ENGLISH" WITH ME AND RECENTLY "DO YOU SPEAK AMERICAN," WE FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS TRIED TO MOUNT A SERIES ON SHAKESPEARE.

AND WE JUST COULDN'T GET ANYBODY INTERESTED IN BACKING IT, SO WE'VE HAD TO ABANDON THAT.

>> WELL, ACTING IN FACT GOT YOU NOTICED BY SOMEBODY WHO WORKED FOR THE CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION, AND LED TO YOUR CREE BUT YOU'D ALWAYS BEEN FASCINATED BY BROADCASTING, PARTICULARLY ROO.

YOU WRITE THAT "GOD DIDN'T SPEAK TO ME, THE BBC DID."

>> YEAH.

>> THAT RADIO JUST SEEPED INTO YOUR PSYCHE.

>> I WAS THE RADIO AGE BEFORE TELEVISION.

I MEAN, I WAS BORN IN 1931, AND I CAN REMEMBER IN THE LATE 1930'S, LISTENING TO THE RADIO WITH MY PARENTS, AND WE LISTENED A LOT TO CBC AND BRITISH-ORIENTED STUFF.

I CAN REMEMBER WHEN EDWARD VIII ABDICATED THE THRONE TO MARRY MRS.

SIMPSON, THE AMERICAN DIVORCEE, HARK!

THE HERALD ANGELS SING, MRS.

SIMPSON'S PINCHED OUR KING, THE BRITISH KIDS WOULD SING WHEN THEY WERE DOING SKIPPING GAMES.

ANYWAY, I REMEMBER THOSE MOMENTS, AND THEN DURING THE WAR IT WAS THE BBC WE LISTENED TO.

>> LONDON CALLING.

>> LONDON, THIS IS THE BBC, LONDON CALLING, NORTH AMERICA.

I CAN EVEN REMEMBER THE NAME OF THE ANNOUNCER WE LISTENED TO ALL THE TIME, DEREK PRENTICE.

I DIDN'T HEAR EDWARD R. MURROW'S ROBERTS FROM LONDON UNTIL MUCH LATER, I WAS ALREADY IN THE BUSINESS, WORKING FOR NBC, AND I HEARD THAT WONDERFUL RECORDING, "HEAR IT NOW," WITH HIS -- >> DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO MEET HIM?

>> OH, YEAH, I MET HIM A FEW TIMES.

WHEN NBC FIRST BROUGHT ME TO THE STATES FROM BRITAIN IN EARLY 1963, THEY PUT ME FIRST IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

AND I MET HIM A COUPLE OF TIMES, BECAUSE HE WAS WORKING -- HE WAS THE HEAD OF -- REALLY JUST INTRODUCED TO HIM AND TALKED TO HIM IN ELEVATORS AND THINGS.

I REALLY NEVER HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM.

>> YOU FEEL THAT RADIO IS UNDER-UTILIZED IN THIS COUNTRY AND IT COULD REHABILITATE THE USE OF WORDS IN WHAT YOU CALL A CULTURE DRUGGED BY PICTURE.

>> YEAH.

I THINK -- NOW I FIRST WROTE THAT IN 1989 OR SO FOR "WORDSTRUCK," AND I'VE SINCE COME TO REALIZE THAT PERHAPS NPR IS DOING MORE OF THAT THAN I HAD APPRECIATED AT THE TIME, AND NOW WITH SATELLITE RADIO BECOMING SUCH, BEGINNING TO BE SUCH A HUGE THING, AND THEN WITH BROADCASTING OVER THE INTERNET JUST IN ITS INFANCY, AND WITH ALL THE SORT OF ADJUNCTS OF RADIO -- I MEAN, THINK OF THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO GO AROUND IN THEIR CARS LISTENING TO C.D.

'S OF BOOKS OR PROGRAMS, REPEATS OF PROGRAMS AND THINGS.

SO I THINK LISTENING TO THE SPOKEN WORD IS PROBABLY NOW, IN 2005, A BIGGER DEAL IN AMERICA THAN I HAD APPRECIATED IN 1989.

>> AND WITH RADIO, YOU SOMEHOW FEEL A LITTLE BIT MORE MANO A MANO, A LITTLE BIT MORE ALONE WITH RADIO THAN YOU DO WITH TELEVISION.

>> I ALWAYS FELT LIKE LISTENING TO THE RADIO WAS LIKE READING A BOOK, YOU WERE ALONE WITH IT, WHEREAS WITH TELEVISION, EVEN WHEN I'M WATCHING IT ALONE, I SOMEHOW FEEL A DISTANCE.

ALSO BROADCASTING, I STARTED BROADCASTING IN THE RADIO AGE, AND I LOVED BEING A RADIO REPORTER.

AND I DID A LOT OF IT.

AND NOW I NEVER REALLY FELT THAT COMFORTABLE ON TELEVISION BECAUSE THE TELEVISION CAMERA, EVEN IF IT WAS AS CLOSE AS YOU ARE, OR A FEW FEET FURTHER BACK, USUALLY IT WAS SORT OF EIGHT FEET, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU STILL FEEL, EVEN THOUGH YOU KNOW THE MICROPHONE IS RIGHT HERE, YOU STILL FEEL YOU HAVE TO PROJECT SOME SLIGHTLY MORE ENERGETIC, DYNAMIC SENSE OF YOUR PERSONALITY TO IT TO REACH THAT, WHEREAS RADIO, WITH A MICROPHONE RIGHT HERE -- >> INTIMATE.

>> IT'S JUST YOU.

I ALWAYS FELT SLIGHTLY ARTIFICIAL SAYING, GOOD EVENING, BLAH-BLAH-BLAH, AS THOUGH YOU HAVE TO SQUEEZE SOMETHING MORE DYNAMIC OUT OF YOURSELF THAN YOU WOULD BECAUSE IT'S TELEVISION.

IF IT WERE RADIO, I DON'T KNOW.

THE TWO OF US, THERE WEREN'T CAMERAS AROUND, I WOULD FEEL MORE RELAXED ABOUT IT.

>> YOU DID USE THE TV MEDIUM QUITE SUCCESSFULLY TO ILLUSTRATE THE STORY OF "THE STORY OF ENGLISH" AND "DO YOU SPEAK AMERICAN," AND CONTRARY TO THE SKY IS FALLING, SKY IS FALLING CROWD, ENGIN ENGLISH HERE IS DOING FINE QUITE WELL, THANK YOU.

>> WELL, BECAUSE OF A NEW PERMISSIVENESS IN SCHOOLS AND NOT AS STRICT TEACHING OF BASIC GRAMMAR, AND THE PARSING OF SENTENCES AND EVERYTHING, AS USED TO BE THE CASE.

SO THEY SEE ALL THAT AND HEAR ALL THE NONSTANDARD ENGLISH ON TELEVISION AND RADIO, BUT IN FACT IF YOU GO BACK TO MARK TWAIN AND WALT WHITMAN YOU KNOW THAT THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN JUST A VERY NEAR OVER A SURFACE OF NONSTANDARD SPEECH, AND NOW WE'RE HEARING IT BECAUSE OF ALL THE CALL-IN SHOWS AND TALK SHOWS AND EVERYTHING.

AND MOST AMERICANS DON'T SPEAK DAY TO DAY THE WAY THEIR ENGLISH TEACHER WOULD LIKE THEM TO SPEAK.

THEY SPEAK IT AS WELL AS THEY CAN WHEN -- IT'S LIKE WHEN THEY HAVE TO PUT ON A BLUE SUIT TO GO FOR A JOB INTERVIEW OR SOMETHING.

AND WE ALL DO THAT.

WE KIND OF BRUSH UP OUR GRAMMAR FOR THAT SORT OF THING, BUT THE REST OF THE TIME WHEN THEY'RE IN THEIR WORK CLOTHES OR JEANS, LIKE ALL THE REST OF US, WE HAVE GRADATIONS OR FORMALITY IN SPEECH.

THE PRESCRIPTIVISTS, THE PEOPLE INFURIATED BY THIS NEW RELAXED GRAMMAR, CONTINUE TO BE VERY ANGRY.

THE DECRYPTTIVISTS, THE PEOPLE LIKE DICTIONARY MAKERS, CONTENT TO DESCRIBE THE WAY LANGUAGE IS ACTUALLY USED, ARE MUCH MORE RELAXED ABOUT IT.

>> SHOULD BROADCASTERS BE HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD TO SPEAK MORE CORRECTLY?

>> WELL, I THINK BROADCASTERS WANT TO APPEAL TO THE AUDIENCE.

THIS IS ANOTHER THING ABOUT THE WHOLE CHANGE IN BROADCASTING.

AT THE VERY BEGINNING, PEOPLE USED TO PUT ON THE AIR WHAT IT WAS THOUGHT GOOD FOR THE AUDIENCE TO HEAR.

AND IT WAS EDITED.

AND LIKE NEWSPAPERS, AS NEWSPAPERS WERE EDITED.

AND NOW THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF COMMERCIAL BROADCASTING IS TO GET THE HIGHEST RATING FOR THAT PERIOD, WHATEVER YOU PUT ON, AND SO YOU NATURALLY DO RESEARCH, AND YOU PUT ON STUFF THAT WILL APPEAL.

AND IF EVERYBODY CAME ON AND TALKED LIKE A HIGH SCHOOL ENGLISH TEACHER IT WOULD BE PROBABLY VERY FUNNY OR VERY UNPOPULAR.

>> SO YOU ENJOY THE VARIETY OF IT ALL.

>> WELL, THE ENJOY THE VARIETY OF IT ALL.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE ALSO PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT AMERICAN ENGLISH IS AS CREATIVE AND DYNAMIC AS ENGLISH WAS IN THE ELIZABETHAN PERIOD WHEN THERE WAS A HUGE FLOWERING OF NEW WORDS AND NEW EXPRESSIONS.

AND THIS SOCIETY IS VERY CREATIVE.

AND ALL OF THIS IS GOING TO BE REFLECTED IN NEW LANGUAGE, LIKE THE FLIGHT ATTENDANT I OVERHEARD SAYING "I'M SORRY TO BE LATE LEAVING THE GATE, BUT WE OVERBOARDED THE AIRCRAFT, SO WE'LL COMP THE HEADSETS IN ECONOMY."

SOMEBODY ELSE I HEARD RECENTLY TOLD ME THEY HEARD A FLIGHT ATTENDANT ASK, HAVE YOU BEEN BEVERAGED YET?"

WE'RE GREAT CREATORS OF NEW STUFF.

>> WALTER CRONKITE WAS HIMSELF AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE ENGLISH ONLY MOVEMENT FOR A WHILE.

>> YEAH.

>> IS THAT -- >> YEAH.

HE AND HE JOINED A GROUP LED BY AIALISTAIR COOKE, AND THE LATE S.I.

HAYAKAWA, AND I DIDN'T THINK I WANTED TO DO THAT.

I DIDN'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT THEN.

I KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT IT NOW.

I THINK IT WOULD HAVE LED, IF IT COULD HAVE PASSED, AND IT NEVER DID, TO VERY UNFORTUNATE CIRCUMSTANCES.

IT IS BORN OUT OF TWO THINGS.

ONE IS HOSTILITY TO HISPANIC MIGRATION AND AN EFFORT BY WHATEVER MEANS TO LIMIT IT.

ANOTHER BY A FEAR THAT WITH SO MANY SPANISH SPEAKERS COMING INTO THE COUNTRY THAT IT'S GOING TO BE A THREAT TO ENGLISH, IT'S GOING TO BE TOO COMPETITIVE WITH ENGLISH.

WE GO INTO THIS IN A LOT OF DETAIL IN "DO YOU SPEAK AMERICAN."

AND OUR RESEARCH, BEHIND ON THE LINGUISTS WHO HAVE DONE THE RESEARCH, AND THE CENSUS DATA DO NOT SUPPORT THAT FEAR.

IN FACT, THE EVIDENCE IS, AND WE HAVE IT IN OUR SERIES AND IN THE BOOK, THAT HISPANIC MIGRANTS ARE ASSIMILATING INTO MAINSTREAM ENGLISH AT THE SAME GENERATIONAL RATE THAT OTHER IMMIGRANT GROUPS DID IN THE PAST.

>> AS WE CLOSE, I WANT TO COME FULL CIRCLE TO THE BOOK, "LOOKING FOR MY COUNTRY," ABOUT YOUR BECOMING AN AMERICAN CITIZEN.

JUST IN THERE THAT A CHOSEN NATIONALITY IS AN EXAMINED ONE.

>> YEAH.

>> FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE NOW AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, OR EVEN A NORTH AMERICAN, AS YOU CALL YOURSELF, A HO NORTH AMERICAN CITIZEN, HOW IS YOUR CHOSEN COUNTRY DOING NOW THAT YOU'RE NO LONGER A BROADCASTER, YOU'RE MORE FREE TO EXPRESS -- >> WELL, YOU DON'T STOP EXAMINING IT, THE CHOSEN RELIGION OR THE CHOSEN COUNTRY.

AND I HAVEN'T STOPPED EXAMINING IT.

IN FACT, I MADE A SPEECH HERE IN SUN VALLEY ABOUT THIS.

AND I'M DISTRESSED BY SOME THINGS IN AMERICA.

AND I WONDER WHETHER THE RATIONALIZATIONS THAT I CRAFTED CAREFULLY IN THIS BOOK TO PERSUADE ME THAT IT WAS THE RIGHT THING FOR ME TO BECOME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, THAT DESPITE ALL THE THINGS I MAY NOT LIKE, THE GLASSES IN TERMS OF IDEALS ACHIEVED, THE GLASS IS A LOT MORE FULL THAN EMPTY.

AND THAT WHATEVER YOU MAY AGREE WITH OR DISAGREE WITH IN A PARTICULAR POLITICAL TIME, PARTY AND POWER, INCUMBENT PRESIDENT, THEY ARE NOT -- THEY AND THE SUPREME COURT AND THE CONGRESS -- ARE NOT AT ANY ONE TIME THE WHOLE BALL OF WAX.

THEY MOVE ON AND THE COUNTRY'S CENTRAL VALUES RE ASSERT THEMSELVES.

I'VE BEGUN TO WONDER ABOUT THAT, NOT BECAUSE OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, ALTHOUGH I HAVE SOME DIFFERENCES WITH THAT, BUT OVER THE LAST 30 OR 40 YEARS HAVE SOME FUNDAMENTAL AMERICAN VALUES BEGUN TO SHIFT?

AS I SAID THE OTHER DAY, IS THERE A RIGHTING MOMENT?

YOU KNOW, IN A SAIL BEAT, THERE'S A DEEP KEEL AND THE WIND PRESSES ON THE SAIL, BUT THE WEIGHT OF THE KEEL DOWN AT THE BOTTOM EVENTUALLY RIGHTS IT.

THERE'S A RIGHTING MOMENT, AS IT'S CALLED.

A LOT OF THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN THE LAST 40 YEARS IN THIS COUNTRY.

NOT JUST REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS, BUT, FOR INSTANCE, THE ABILITY OF MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE TO HAVE THEIR SHARE OF THE ECONOMY REALLY GROW AND THEIR STANDARD OF LIVING GROW IN COMPARISON WITH VERY WEALTHY PEOPLE.

THE FUNDAMENTAL PROMISE OF THIS DEMOCRACY TO EDUCATE ALL PEOPLE -- ALL ITS CITIZENS TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY, TO LET THEM REALLY ACHIEVE WHATEVER THEY'RE CAPABLE OF, HAD THE ADMIRATION OF THE WORLD, BECAUSE AMERICA WAS A GREAT PIONEER IN THIS, MUCH ADMIRED.

FIRST IN THE 19TH CENTURY, THEN IN THE 1920'S, 1930'S, AND SO ON, AND REINVESTED IN THE G.I.

BILL AFTERWARDS.

WE KNOW THAT PUBLIC EDUCATION IN THIS COUNTRY, THE QUALITY VARIES ENORMOUSLY BY GEOGRAPHY, BY WEALTH AND BY RACE.

AND DESPITE NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

SO THERE ARE THINGS THAT -- THINGS THAT MAKE ME WONDER.

DON'T MAKE ME REGRET BECOMING AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, BUT IT'S MY COUNTRY.

AND I'M FREE TO SAY WHAT I THINK ABOUT IT.

>> WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR VIEWS WITH US.

I REALLY APPRECIATE HAVTHIS OPPORTUNITY.

>> IT'S A REAL PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

>> YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING TO ROBERT MACNEIL, ONE OF OUR SERIES OF CONVERSATIONS FROM THE SUN VALLEY WRITERS' CONFERENCE.

YOU CAN LISTEN TO THIS INTERVIEW AGAIN AND THE OTHERS IN THE SERIES BY GOING TO OUR WEBSITE, IDAHOPTV.ORG/DIALOGUE.

THANKS FOR TUNING IN.

WE HOPE YOU'LL JOIN US SAME TIME NEXT WEEK.

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