>> SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP RETURNED TO OFFICE MORE THAN SEVEN MONTHS AGO THE U. S. AS WE KNOW IT HAS BEEN UNDERGOING SOME DRAMATIC SHIFTS.

AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER PROMINENT HEDGE FUND RAY DALIO WARNED THIS WEEK THE UNITED STATES IS SLIDING INTO A 1930s STYLE AUTOCRACY.

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

THE FORMER SECRETARY ROBERT REICH BELIEVES WHAT WE ARE SEEING TODAY IS A SERIES OF CHOICES MADE IN THE LAST 50 YEARS.

HE CHRONICLES THEM IN A RECENT MEMOIR "COMING UP SHORT. "

THAT'S A GREAT TITLE I HAVE TO SAY.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS WHAT DEMOCRATS SHOULD DO.

>> WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> YOUR BOOK IS "COMING UP SHORT, A MEMOIR OF MY AMERICA. "

I WANT TO FOCUS ON THAT SUBTITLE BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME WHEN I READ THE BOOK LAST NIGHT IS THAT YOU TAKE YOUR OWN LIFE STORY AND MAKE IT INTO AN ALLEGORY ABOUT AMERICA IN THAT PERIOD.

HOW DID YOU DO THAT AND WHY?

>> FIRST OF ALL, COMING UP SHORT IS INDEED A DOUBLE ENTENDRE BECAUSE YOU KNOW I'M VERY SHORT.

I GREW UP PRIVILEGED TO BE A MEMBER OF THE POST-WAR BABY BOOM.

I DON'T PROPOSE TO KNOW HOW OLD YOU ARE, WALTER.

I'M SURE YOU'RE YOUNGER THAN I AM.

BUT THAT POST- WAR BABY BOOM GENERATION, THE YEAR I WAS BORN FEATURED JUST WITHIN A FEW MONTHS OF MY BIRTH BILL CLINTON, GEORGE W. BUSH, AND DONALD TRUMP.

AND THE BOOK FOCUSES REALLY ON WHAT WE DID, NOT NECESSARILY THOSE INDIVIDUALS ENTIRELY.

I ALSO INCLUDE CLARENCE THOMAS AND MANY OTHERS OF US WHO CAME TO OUR --OUR ADULTHOOD IN THE 1960s, 1970s.

AND HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE THE LEGACY WE WERE GIVEN BY THE SO-CALLED GREATEST GENERATION AND CONTINUE THAT LEGACY IN TERMS OF BUILDING A VERY STRONG AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS AND A STRONGER DEMOCRACY.

BUT WE CAME UP SHORT IN THE SENSE THAT WE ENDED UP WITH DONALD TRUMP AS PRESIDENT.

AND I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOT THE SOURCE OF OUR PROBLEMS.

WHAT I SAY IN THE BOOK IS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS MORE THE CONSEQUENCE OR THE CULMINATION OF A LOT OF FAILURES OVER THE LAST 40 OR 50 YEARS TO DEAL WITH WIDENING INEQUALITY.

AND THE PROBLEMS FACED BY THE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS THAT ULTIMATELY CHOSE HIM AS PRESIDENT.

>> WELL, LET ME TALK ABOUT THE BABY BOOM GENERATION.

YOU TALK ABOUT SOMEBODY BORN THE YEAR YOU WERE BORN IN THE LATE 1940s HAD ABOUT AN 80% CHANCE OF BEING FINANCIALLY BETTER OFF THAN THEIR PARENTS.

IF YOU WERE BORN IN THE '80s OR '90s YOU HAVE LESS THAN A 50% CHANCE OF BEING BETTER OFF FINANCIALLY.

THAT SEEMS HUGE TO ME.

WHAT HAPPENED?

WHY?

>> IN THE LATE '70s THERE WAS KIND OF A GIANT U-TURN, AND I GET INTO THIS IN THE BOOK.

WE INSTEAD OF CONTINUING TO GROW THE MIDDLE CLASS, WE ACTUALLY DECIDED --AND I SAY WE FIGURATIVELY.

IT WAS NOT EVERYBODY IN AMERICA.

IT WAS ACTUALLY AN INCREASINGLY POLITICALLY POTENT CORPORATE KOSHER OF BIG CORPORATIONS AND WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS WHOSE MONEY BEGAN TO DOMINATE AMERICAN POLITICS IN A WAY THAT DID RIG THE MARKET.

NOW, I DON'T WANT TO BE TOO DRAMATIC ABOUT IT OR SORT OF PARROT EXACTLY WHAT BERNIE SANDERS AND OTHERS HAVE SAID, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF TRUTH TO IT.

THE MARKET DID CHANGE, AND THAT MEANT THAT IF YOU WERE A NON-COLLEGE GRADUATE AND IF YOU WERE --PARTICULARLY IF YOU WERE BROUGHT UP IN THE MIDDLE WEST OR IN THE SOUTH, AND YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITIES YOU HAD.

YOU WERE NO LONGER A MEMBER OF A UNION.

UNIONS WERE ABOUT CONSTITUTED SOMETHING IN THE ORDER OF 35% OF ALL THE PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS IN THE 1960s OR '70 s, AND THEN DECLINED TO TODAY NOW 6% OF PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS.

IN MANY, MANY RESPECTS MONOPOLIZATION, FOR EXAMPLE, BIG COMPANIES BECAME MUCH, MUCH STRONGER, MONOPOLIZED THEIR MARKETS IN WAYS THAT IN THE '50s, '60s, '70s, THEY DID NOT.

THE COMBINATION IN WHICH ALL OF THE WAYS IN WHICH THE MARKET WAS RIGGED, MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO FULFILL WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO.

AND THAT IS THE SOCIAL CONTRACT THAT WE HAD COMING OUT OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

>> ONE OF THE THEMES IN YOUR BOOK IS BULLYING, AND YOU WERE BULLIED AS A KID.

AND IN SOME WAYS YOU SAY THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE AVERAGE AMERICAN.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> WELL, I --I BECAME QUITE SENSITIVE TO THE ISSUE OF BULLYING BECAUSE I AM SHORT AND I WAS LIKE MANY CHILDREN ARE BULLIED IN SCHOOL.

BUT ONE OF MY PROTECTORS, ONE OF THE OLDER BOYS I KIND OF LEANED ON OR RELIED ONTO TAKE -- TO PROTECT ME FROM THE BULLIES HIMSELF WAS BULLIED IN A MUCH MORE PROFOUND WAY.

WHEN HE WAS REGISTERING VOTERS IN 1964, HIS NAME WAS MICHAEL SWARNER.

HE AND TWO OTHER CIVIL RIGHTS MEMBERS WERE MURDERED BY THE KU KLUX KLAN.

AND THAT IN MANY WAYS, WALTER, CHANGED MY LIFE AND MY VIEW OF BULLYING.

I BEGAN TO SEE BULLYING IS ABOUT POWER.

IT IS ABOUT POWER.

IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE WITH POWER ABUSING THAT POWER AND TREATING OTHERS WITHOUT POWER IN WAYS THAT EXPLOIT THEM.

AND I'M TALKING ABOUT EMPLOYERS AND EMPLOYEES OR MEN BULLYING WOMEN OR WHITE SUPREMACISTS BULLYING BLACK PEOPLE.

I MEAN YOU SEE BULLYING ALL OVER.

AND AS INEQUALITY HAS WIDENED IN AMERICA OVER THE LAST --STARTING WITH THE LAST 40 YEARS, THE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE BULLIES, THOSE AT THE TOP WHO HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF RESOURCE, TO TAKE OUT THEIR BULLYING ON PEOPLE WHO ARE WEAKER THAN THEY ARE HAVE INCREASED.

I MEAN, DONALD TRUMP IS THE BULLY OF BULLIES.

I THINK THAT HE WAS ELECTED IN PART BECAUSE OF PEOPLE WHO FELT SO BULLIED BY THE SYSTEM SAW HIM AS SOMEBODY WHO COULD BULLY EVERYBODY ELSE.

OF COURSE, HE IS NOT A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE WORKING CLASS.

HE ACTUALLY HAS PROVIDED HUGE TAX CUTS TO THE WEALTHY AND DEREGULATED WALL STREET AND DEREGULATED THE ENVIRONMENT AND MADE, I THINK, OVER TIME THE WORKING CLASS MUCH MORE VULNERABLE.

NEVERTHELESS, THAT WAS HIS SELLING -- >> WAIT, WAIT.

THEN WHY --WHY DID HE GET A PLURALITY OF THE VOTES?

>> I THINK HE GOT A PLURALITY OF THE VOTES IN 2024 YOU'RE REFERRING TO BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATS DID NOT COME UP WITH A RESPONSE TO THE BULLYING.

YOU SEE -- AND I GET AT THIS IN THE BOOK, AND THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE BEEN HARPING ON WHAT ARE FOR YEARS.

AND THAT IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO EXPLAIN TO THE WORKING CLASS, TO THE VAST MIDDLE CLASS THAT HAS FELT BULLIED WHY THE MARKET IS RIGGED AGAINST THEM.

DEMOCRATS NEED TO POINT OUT THAT THE LARGE CORPORATIONS AND THE WEALTHY PEOPLE WHO ARE PUTTING HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY INTO AMERICAN POLITICS ARE DOING THIS IN WAYS THAT HURT MUCH OF THE MIDDLE CLASS AND CERTAINLY THE WORKING CLASS.

AND AS A RESULT, THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT PROVIDED AS HAS DONALD TRUMP AND SOME REPUBLICANS BEFORE HIM AN EXPLANATION.

NOW, THE TRUMP EXPLANATION HAS BEEN ABOUT CULTURAL BULLIES.

THE TRUMP EXPLANATION HAS BEEN, WELL, IT'S THE DEEP --YOU KNOW, THE DEEP STATE, OR IT'S IMMIGRANTS OR IT'S PEOPLE WHO ARE DIFFERENT SUCH AS TRANSGENDER YOUTH.

I MEAN, THE CULTURAL CULPRITS HERE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHY MOST AMERICANS FEEL BULLIED.

BUT IF THE DEMOCRATS DON'T POINT OUT THE REAL BULLIES, THEN THERE'S NO OPPORTUNITY FOR ANYBODY TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.

AND AS A RESULT, DONALD TRUMP OR DEMAGOGUES LIKE HIM ARE ELECTED AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE ELECTED AS FAR AS THE EYE CAN SEE.

DEMOCRATS HAVE GOT TO NAME AND BE CLEAR ABOUT WHO THE NATIONAL BULLIES REALLY ARE, WHY THERE IS BRUTALITY IN THE SYSTEM, WHY THERE IS ABUSE OF POWER IN THE SYSTEM.

>> WHEN DID DEMOCRATS LOSE TOUCH WITH THE WORKING CLASS?

>> WELL, I --IN THE BOOK I TRACE IT BACK TO THE --REALLY THE 1990s.

I MEAN, I AM VERY, VERY PROUD TO HAVE BEEN A MEMBER OF THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.

I THINK WE ACCOMPLISHED A GREAT DEAL.

BUT I THINK THAT BILL CLINTON AND A LOT OF THE DEMOCRATS ASSOCIATED WITH THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP COUNCIL.

DO YOU REMEMBER THEM?

THE SO-CALLED MODERATE DEMOCRATS, THE NEW DEMOCRATS, THEY REFUSED TO AND WERE UNWILLING TO REALLY MAKE THE KIND OF ALLIANCE WITH ORGANIZED LABOR, WITH THE GRASSROOTS GROUPS, NAME THE KIND OF BRUTALITY AND THE BULLIES THAT WERE REALLY BEGINNING TO HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF POWER IN AMERICA BECAUSE OF ALL THE MONEY IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

AND I THINK THAT AND IN ADOPTING FREE TRADE AND IN DEREGULATING WALL STREET, AND IN TAKING THEIR EYES OFF MONOPOLIES AND ALLOWING COMPANIES TO BASICALLY BASH UNIONS AND GET RID OF UNIONS, ALL OF THIS HELPED PAVE THE WAY FOR DONALD TRUMP.

>> IN THE BOOK, ACTUALLY, YOU TRACE IT EVEN FURTHER BACK TO SOME EXTENT, EVEN TO THE POST HURON STATEMENT AND THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT OF THE '60s AND '70s.

EXPLAIN HOW YOU THINK THAT MAY HAVE LED THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ASTRAY OF GETTING TOO MUCH INTO THIS PROGRESSIVE LEFT IDEOLOGY.

>> WELL, I DON'T REALLY TAKE ON THE, AS YOU POINTED --AS YOU PUT IT, PROGRESSIVE LEFT IDEOLOGY IN THE SENSE THAT I THINK THE CORE PROBLEM.

I MEAN THE PORT HURON STATEMENT I VIEW AS AN IMPORTANT --I STILL VIEW AS A VERY IMPORTANT STATEMENT WITH REGARD TO THE KIND OF POPULIST LEANINGS OF OUR GENERATION, MY GENERATION.

BUT I THINK IT LEFT OUT THE WORKING CLASS.

AND MANY OF THE REFORM MOVEMENTS OF THE '60s, '70s, AND '80s LEFT OUT THE WORKING CLASS.

I MEAN THE WOMAN'S MOVEMENT WAS VERY IMPORTANT, OBVIOUSLY.

EVEN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, THE VOTING RIGHTS MOVEMENT, I MEAN I WAS PART OF THAT.

THE ANTI- VIETNAM WAR MOVEMENT, THE MOVEMENT TO PROVIDE EQUAL MARRIAGE RIGHTS, ALL OF THEM TERRIBLY IMPORTANT.

BUT WHAT WAS LEFT OUT WAS THE WORK CLASS AND THE LABOR MOVEMENT.

AND THE CORE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AS A LEGACY OF FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT TO REPRESENT THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOT HAVE POWER, REPRESENT PEOPLE WHO WERE REALLY LEFT OUT OF POWER.

BUT IT'S NOT TOO LATE.

I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION GIVES THE DEMOCRATS AND PROGRESSIVES AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO WHAT THEY DID NOT DO IN THE '80s AND '90s AND EVEN AT THE TURN OF THIS CENTURY, AND THAT IS RE-CLAIM THE --THE GROUND THAT WAS LOST.

BECAUSE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS --IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT IS SO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS HAD REPRESENTED AND TRIED TO ACHIEVE.

IT IS IN A SENSE A --AN ADMINISTRATION THAT IS MOREICOSELY ALIGNED.

AND I'M GOING TO USE A WORD HERE THAT I RARELY USE, AND I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE.

BUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS CLOSELY ALIGNED WITH FASCIST MOVEMENTS IN HISTORY.

AND RIGHT-WING MOVEMENTS IN EUROPE, NEO-NAZI MOVEMENTS AROUND THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY IN EUROPE.

AND THIS GIVES THE GROUND --THIS GIVES DEMOCRATS ENORMOUS GROUND, ENORMOUS OPPORTUNITY TO REFASHION A COALITION AND CREATE A NEW MULTI-RACIAL, MULTIETHNIC, MULTI-CLASS COALITION THAT IS NOT JUST BASED ON DEMOCRACY.

YES, THAT'S IMPORTANT.

THAT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

BUT IT'S ALSO BASED ON WIDENING PROSPERITY FOR EVERYONE.

>> USING INCREDIBLY LOADED WORD "FASCISM. "

AND IN YOUR BOOK YOU HAVE HENRY WALLACE, THE DEMOCRAT -- VERY PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT WRITING AN ESSAY ABOUT FASCISM.

I THINK IT'S IN THE 1940s.

>> 1944.

THAT WAS INTERESTING.

HENRY WALLACE, VICE PRESIDENT AT THE TIME TO FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, WROTE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE A VERY IMPORTANT ARTICLE LOST MOSTLY TO HISTORY.

I TRIED TO REVIVE IT.

IN WHICH HE WARNS OF AMERICAN FASCISM.

AND THIS IS AT A TIME WE'RE FIGHTING THE SECOND WORLD WAR, BUT HE SEES --WALLACE SEES.

HE WRITES THIS ARTICLE WITH THE PERMISSION OF FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, HE WRITES ABOUT THE UNDERPINNINGS OF THE MONOPOLIZATION OF VERY CRUDE EFFORTS TO DESTROY AMERICAN UNIONS, TRUE LABOR UNIONS, THE EFFORTS OF WHITE SUPREMACISTS TO REASSERT THEMSELVES THROUGH THIS KIND OF QUIET FASCISM THAT HE SEES.

IT'S AN UNDERCURRENT IN AMERICA THAT HENRY WALLACE IDENTIFIES AND THAT UNDOUBTEDLY HAS BEEN THERE BEFORE AND IS --HAS BEEN THERE SINCE -- AT LEAST SINCE THE 1930s AND IS NOW EXPRESSING ITSELF IN WAYS THAT I THINK WALLACE HAD VERY PRESCIENTLY SEEN POSSIBLE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE POPULISM OF THE RIGHT AND MOVING TOWARDSA AUTHORITARIANISM.

IS THERE A POSSIBILITY OF AN ECONOMIC POPULARITY OF THE LEFT, AND HOW WOULD THAT BE EXPRESSED WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IN THE U. S. ?

>> WELL, THERE IS A POPULISM OF THE LEFT.

I MEAN, BERNIE SANDERS WAS THE BEST EXPONENT AND EXPRESSION OF THAT, BUT HE WAS SAYING SOMETHING THAT RESONATED WITH MANY AMERICANS.

AND THAT IS THAT WE'VE GOT TO TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK ECONOMICALLY FROM BIG CORPORATIONS, FROM WEALTHY PEOPLE THAT ARE ABUSING THEIR WEALTH AND THEIR POWER.

I MEAN, HE WAS HARKENING BACK TO SOMETHING THAT LEWIS BRANDRIES, THE GREAT JURIST, WAS REPEATED TO HAVE SAID IN THE 1970s, WHICH IS AMERICA HAS A CHOICE.

WE CAN EITHER HAVE GREAT WEALTH IN THE HANDS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE OR WE CAN HAVE A DEMOCRACY, BUT WE CAN'T HAVE BOTH.

AND BERNIE SANDERS CAME VERY, VERY CLOSE TO GETTING THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION.

NOW, HISTORY WILL NOT KNOW WHETHER HE COULD HAVE BEATEN DONALD TRUMP, WHO WAS ALSO IMPROBABLE.

I REMEMBER, WALTER, I WAS DOING A BOOK IN 2015, SOME RESEARCH FOR A BOOK.

I WENT AROUND MANY PLACES IN THE MIDWEST OF THE SOUTH DOING KIND OF A FOCUS GROUPS, REALLY FREE FLOAT IN FOCUS GROUPS.

AND I REMEMBER ASKING PEOPLE ALL OF THE COUNTRY PARTICULARLY IN THE RUST BELT, IN THE SOUTH, IF YOU HAD TO VOTE TODAY WHO WOULD YOU VOTE FOR FOR YOUR NEXT PRESIDENT?

NOW, THIS WAS 2015 WHEN HILLARY CLINTON WAS THE PUNITIVE NOMINEE FOR THE DEMOCRATS AND JEB BUSH WAS THE PUNE POSITIVE NOMINEE FOR THE REPUBLICANS.

AND I KEPT ON HEARING AGAIN AND AGAIN PEOPLE SAYING, WELL, WE WANT EITHER DONALD TRUMP OR BERNIE SANDERS.

AND I REMEMBER THINKING, WAIT A MINUTE, HOW CAN YOU PUT DONALD TRUMP AND BERNIE SANDERS IN THE SAME SENSTANCE?

BUT THE FACT WAS IN 2015 PEOPLE WHO FELT BULLIED, AND I'M GOING TO USE THAT METAPHOR BECAUSE IT REALLY DOES DESCRIBE THE PEOPLE THAT I MET.

AND THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND STILL DOES.

THEY WANTED SOMEBODY WHO WOULD STOP THE BULLYING.

>> ROBERT REICH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

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