images of the January 6th riers storming the capital in Washington DC are ingrained in our minds because that's recent history but you're probably not aware of a plot more than a century ago a failed attempt by the Confederates to capture Washington an attempt that was dangerously close to success I'm Anne boock and welcome to between the covers Robert Watson is here he's an award-winning author historian and Professor I've lost count of how many incredible books he's written I know it's somewhere north of 40 the latest is Rebels at the gate Robert again thank you for making me smarter an I love your show and I I love these interviews we do almost every year so thank you appreciate it I loved this book for for many reasons but let's start at the beginning what was your inspiration for this book so I love Washington DC in fact U I just returned uh from my one of my many visits to DC who doesn't love the national monuments and memorials the National Mall The Majestic government buildings the Smithsonian at any rate uh exactly five miles from the White House and capito there's a small Cemetery it's got to be the smallest National Cemetery in the country maybe an acre and it's got 40 small white tombstones and two little concentric circles sitting there guarding this little uh Cemetery are two small six PB cannons each one a little bit bigger than this desk smooth boore and I've been there several times and every time I go I ask people that jog by or walk their dogs it's in a residential neighborhood there's fast food there's a supermarket housing I ask everybody what's this place here nobody knows it what it is those are the soldiers that are buried there who saved Washington DC in 1864 just a short ways from that on what is now Georgia Avenue is um a few yards of Earthworks like basically mounds of of soil with some wood around it and two old Civil War cannons and a big rock that was Fort Stevens that was Ground Zero in the defense of Washington DC from a powerful Army and you're right they came this close to seizing DC so I think that this is one of the easily most pivotal important events in American history that people don't know anything about and every time I've been to this little you know the National Park Service does a great job but just a small little plot this small little Cemetery I've never seen anybody else there and yet it's it it's the ground zero for the defense of our Capital let's go back to 1864 it's the Civil War has been raging for three long years Abraham Lincoln is the president the union is really tired of this war Lincoln wants it finished his way color this picture in for me yes so you're right the new scholarship is suggesting over 700,000 Americans died in a civil war the textbooks say 620 but new scholarship says that's a low number so at least 700,000 Millions amputees lost an eye post-traumatic which we didn't even understand at the time Lincoln's frustrated he was also frustrated with his generals mlen Burnside hooker all these generals they they weren't aggressive and a lot of times we had the North had Lee Robert E Lee or was winning a battle yet they wouldn't follow him and finish it off so he was looking for the right General and he found him grant ulyses grant and there was a lot of opposition to him picking Grant and Lee said Grant fights I can't spare this man he fights in fact some of his cabinet officers said Grant was an alcoholic and Lincoln joked and said well find out what he's drinking and give it to all my generals because it's it's working right um so Grant designs What's called the Overland campaign and Lincoln loves it Grant's going to mobilize well over a 100,000 soldiers he takes soldiers off of almost every Fort takes artillery and they they're headed straight for Lee in the meantime he sends his other generals one's going to hit Lee here one's going to hit the Confederacy so it's an multiple fronts and the north has more I always call it the 3M the advantage of More Money More manufacturing and more men so with multiple fronts multiple armies converging Lee's in trouble Grant marches down and catches Lee in Petersburg which is an important Crossroads uh you know rail water uh highways a Crossroads Transportation Hub right next to Richmond which is the capital and Grant surrounds them and lays Siege on them Grant is like a pit bull that gets a hold of a bone he's not letting go and this scares the you know what out of Jefferson Davis the president of the Confederacy and Lee where other generals when they're taking casualties they would call it a day Lee knows that Grant will never stop therefore the war is going to end not if but when Lee then has a desperate final plan to try to Salvage this meanwhile Lincoln's all Lin Behind grant go and finish this thing one of Lincoln's concerns is in that fall he is an election there's always an election there's always an election and he's unpopular and the death toll and War fatigue Lincoln and his supporters are worried that someone like former General mlen George mlen they would compromise allow the South to leave the union or retain slavery um that's not acceptable to Lincoln so if we don't end this war soon if we don't have a big victory Lincoln could lose the election so all this is these are the stakes the Confederates meanwhile are not in good shape this is three years into the war they are desperate it actually boggles my mind how they even continued you write so beautifully about this some despicable things that they had to do to survive no question I've always said and I say in this book I don't know how the Confederacy put an Army in the field uh by the middle of the war they ran out of food medicine clothing the army that Robert El Lee and we'll get to that sends to sack Washington is a powerful Army but maybe half the soldiers don't have boots they marched for weeks without shoes they were all starving they were foraging for nuts apples anything they found they lacked medicine some Confederates who were captured and put into a union prison at least they got a blanket clothing and food this is how bad it was so the Confederacy is in a full on crisis Lee knows Grant won't stop lee knows it's over Richmond and Petersburg Richmond for all intents and purposes surround it even though it was Petersburg because they're connected it's over for them and they're starving they need something to change and end the war quickly the north needs something to change and end the war quickly we're going to talk about some of the major players Robert pretty Lee puts in charge and these are your words from the book A balding foul mouth tobacco chewing man jubble early now early deserves an entire book this is some character you got to talk about him so jubble early reminds me of youred Sam yeah even looked a little like him um he's crusty he's cantankerous uh they said you couldn't understand him because his draw was so thick and if he tried to get close to understand him he spew tobacco juice on you um he once got into an argument with a preacher who was complaining about how many men were dying and in the cemetery and what do you have to say about that and early said I'll conscript every damn one of them out of the cemetery he was just I mean he was a walking caricature of himself he was controversial in the Gentile South where you know Robert El Lee is well educated you have to be married he was not married he had a mistress with multiple kids he was almost thrown out of West Point he gets in fights with other officers he I mean he's he's yusi Sam but number one Lee lost confidence in both of his most of his generals two most of his generals like Stonewall Jackson his best they're dead number three Jubal early was aggressive he fought so in some ways it's the ying and yang of Grant he fights he never Retreats he he's a pitbull with a bone so Lee knows he's the right guy because he will go through hell to get the job done you're an expert on military history you you've written a lot about it do you think looking back that he thought he would succeed so there's two ways to read Jubal early uh two ways to read Roberty Lee early left a memoir he left a book about this Lee never left a memoir although he left a lot of letters and they've been compiled Lee and early both wrote with an eye to history Lee was hyperconscious of his reputation His Image and early would be the the architect of what is the Lost Cause myth that the South was this lovely idealistic place and slaves were like our children and slavery was good and the north came down and were evil to us and so as the architect the the designer of this lost cause myths early was always saying that everything was good and he could make it happen I think Lee and early knew this was a hail Mar they knew this was desperate it probably wouldn't work but it didn't need to work for example if early made it close to Washington it would force Grant to take men away from his Siege of Petersburg and Richmond and go deal with early if Grant took men away it would allow Lee to escape or Jefferson Davis to escape or at least them to try to take a breath number two even if early wasn't successful if he almost sacked Washington or if he almost caught or killed Lincoln it would embarrass the union and Lincoln could lose the election number three even even if they didn't succeed the South as we said earlier was out of everything one of the tasks early was given was to bring back horses cows food to loot and Rob it was basically a marauding mission early looted robbed harassed everybody they also were out of money and Confederate Currency was worthless so they couldn't pay their veterans they couldn't trade with you know Britain and France so early looted Banks and towns and brought back Federal money so there were so many uh other objectives besides sacking Washington we talked about Grant a minute ago or so he's appointed by Lincoln wasn't this somewhat controversial oh yeah oh yeah so Grant is seen as an alcoholic he's also called a butcher uh because Grant never Retreats but Grant realizes in a really difficult way is if the north if the north loses two men to every one man the South lost I mean that's a difficult defeat but the north is still ahead because they can replenish things the South can't if the north has to flee the battlefield and loses 100 cannons they can manufacture a thousand more the South can't um so Grant understands that in some ways it's a war of logistics um and Grant will just go go go and put the fear of God into the South so he was controversial in a lot of ways Grant didn't graduate the top of his class at West Point he didn't dress like Napoleon in like some other Generals in fact there's a wonderful report a a journalist goes to interview Grant in the field and Grant sitting at a tent his uniform is Dusty he's got the flatbrim kind of blue cowboy hat on he looks like an enlisted man and and he's just sitting there you know smoking and it's Grant and he's humble so for many reasons it was a controversial pick but I am 100% in agreement it was the right selection by Lincoln but here's this Tactical error like you said Grant Washington is vulnerable now because the troops are South they are in Petersburg yep so that is a problem oh big problem Grant didn't know that early snuck out of Petersburg and Richmond uh a couple days into it they get a report that there's a massive Confederate Army marching toward you grant says no they're not they're in Petersburg hav surrounded they're they're close to death there's no way they could manage to March all the way across Virginia up to shanadoa through Maryland and strike Washington DC plus Washington DC at the time had 68 forts 800 cannons almost 100 artillery platforms 30 miles of rifle trenches so Grant says it's a very powerful City however there's no artillery men no Riflemen you know so it was a big mistake by Grant until the very end yeah now not as major a player but definitely important to your story is Lou Wallace he is an impressive has up an impressive military career he's also criticized you want to give us a little of uh I like Lou Wallace course he looks the part he's got the big walrus mustache like a lot of them did back then Lou Wallace had a mixed career he was a smart guy difficult uh life uh he had some notable military successes but he was blamed for a failure and he was basic he basically lost his command so he was demoted to an administrative position in Baltimore now heroic general you know West Point kind of guy this is an embarrassment Lou Wallace is in Baltimore and he gets word not from Grant not from the war department not from Lincoln he gets word from a man that owns a railway station he says our railway station at monakas uh it's it's a town near Baltimore he's again a Transportation Hub across roads for rail water roads that there's this massive Confederate Army converging there and the next stop is Washington DC without direct orders Lou Wallace gobbles together just a few I mean he's got two three 4,000 troops maybe he rushes there he could have been court marshaled and he ends up losing at monacy because he's way out he's outnumbered his out gunned everything but they fight like demons they fight all day the South has had major casualties they're exhausted most importantly it's July 9th two days before they sack Washington the South lost an entire day they were too exhausted to fight the next day so and Lou Wallace ends up despite being criticized for losing the battle later Grant says Lou Wallace is the one that saved Washington DC and because he saved Washington he saved the war because he saved the war he saved the United States and he goes on to write a book called benur who would have thought one of the bestselling books of the 19th century yeah still remember the Charlton hon film I remember that to book so yeah Lou Wallace is a renaissance man he and and the book actually was better seller than Harriet beer sto's Uncle Tom's Cabin yeah it would it would pass hers hers was probably second best selling yeah I I look at him after reading your book as someone who would rather ask forgiveness than permission right right which that by the way that's my motto so if my Dean and my campus president are watching now you know my my stick but um no thank goodness he rushed there but you know when you think about it the union had telegraphs the South didn't but the South was cutting the union telegraphs therefore you're waiting for a guy to ride up with a leather bag and a satchel saying look out he had to act and he knew he he probably thought he and everybody would die doing it but they're going to delay the South give the union time to reinforce Washington uh and they did they inflicted major casualties and the fighting was was atrocious at mon iy this day was a close call for President Lincoln and this is a guy who is not a fan of being told what to do where to go tell this story so they wanted Lincoln Stanton was the war secretary uh a Gruff tough I mean difficult guy but competent he wanted Lincoln to leave Washington the assistant Navy secretary everybody wanted Lincoln to leave it wasn't safe they had a a fast steamer waiting on the pon they had his Carriage ready they had a a escort a military escort Lincoln wouldn't leave um in fact not only did he not want to leave he was touring the forts he was at the Battle uh loln when and of ultimately as Union Soldiers arrive at the warf Lincoln actually goes down and welcomes him to the warf he's hugging shaking hands welcome follow me he leads him into the fort so in July 12th 1864 Lincoln goes to Fort Stevens it was named for General Isaac Stevens a great Union general who was killed while leading from the front uh used to be called Fort Massachusetts because it was built by soldiers from Massachusetts so he goes to Fort Stevens which is on the north western part of Washington DC the intelligence which was spotty was that the South were going from Maryland so the South would be coming from the north actually and Fort Stevens would be Ground Zero so Lincoln goes there but he's not content to just be there he climbs up on the parapet on the walls and he's asking the officers show me where they're going to come from but what they didn't realize the South had Sharpshooters hidden in a barn in an apple tree and so forth and so on and um Lincoln of course is the most iconic person in worldt he has the Hat he's six foot4 in a day and age when men were a foot smaller he's standing up there a shot rangs out it hits right near where Lincoln and this officer are standing ricochets and hits the officer in the leg knocks him off someone reaches up and grabs Lincoln pulls him off and yells get down you damn fool uh so Lincoln is almost killed now this is in the thick of the fighting if we lose Lincoln in July of 1864 it's a different outcome in American history and he comes this far away from getting shot uh Lincoln later apologizes everybody you're all doing your job I put you in danger I'm sorry but uh and then Mary Todd was having a fit his wife that everybody wanted him to leave he ultimately does leave but not before shaking everybody's hand of course typical so uh yeah you know today people throw around Cavalier terms like the country's headed for a civil war but I think we need to take a step back it cannot be overstated enough what actually happened as as far as loss it is unequaled into anything else in our history yeah it's Civil War is our bloodiest war more people died than in World War II than in World War I the number of Americans that died in prison camps is larger than the total number that died in Vietnam or Korea just the number that died in prison camps in the south is larger than the total Battlefield count of the revolution war of 1812 Mexican American war and Spanish American war cumulative put together so the Civil War is without precedent and you know this nation comes very close to ceasing to exist and with Lincoln almost being shot and if the Confederates can sack Washington DC you know it's hard to play what if and historians are told not to do that but I think it's irresistible I'm of the belief that this would have been it that would have been the end uh think about it Washington DC was not just our Capital it was the command and control and communication center of the nation all the military left from Washington DC the telegraphs were there the storehouses of cannons and food and everything was there so if the South gets Washington it's over now even if the South the Confederates don't have enough men to hold Washington what if they burn all the storehouses what if they take all the weapons back what if they kill you know the the entire war department what if they kill or capture Lincoln or Ransom uh there's so many scenarios where this thing goes sideways you know it is chilling just to take take a beat and and think about that you also remind us in the book what Shelby foot wrote that it is impossible to understand the United States history without understanding the Civil War Shelby foot the great writer uh said it was the definitive event in American history no question about it fortunately the Confederate Army marches to the cusp of Washington early ride this is how I open the book early rides up on Horseback with his officers and he's sitting there and he's looking through his field glasses at the newly finished Capital Dome it was just put in place and he sees Washington and he's smiling and he's not smiling because of what he sees he's grinning because of what he doesn't see soldiers Washington's available for the taking and and he had the city at that moment this is July 10 July 11 he had the City however the entire Confederate Army was a couple miles behind him lying down under trees or asleep because they had two days of constant boozing so in a way alcohol saved the United States I found these cute letters between an army General and a Navy Admiral and the Army General saying we the Army save the nation what it was the Confederates hit a warehouse full of booze and it was a Navy warehouse and it got him so the naval Admiral says no it was the Navy's alcohol that W the the Confederates and of course everybody that's been to Washington DC in July knows it's it's the most humid hot place on the planet um with wool uniforms and running out of water they drink to excess and then drink to excess and then drink to excess the entire Army is in no condition to fight thank goodness because early sitting there saying that the capital's ours then he says my Army can't fight I'll give them a day to sober up and we'll hit him tomorrow morning at dawn wow so thank goodness for the alcohol thank goodness for the alcohol fortunately eyes see the Confederate Army people in Washington see the campfires burning they hear them running around shooting their guns marauding pillaging drinking and partying you know uh so they send a fast steamship and a telegraph down to [Music] Grant what's the part as an author that gets you adrenaline going oh it's two things it's uncovering the story and the research um you love the research I do I'm a kid in the candy store in fact I I was taking selfies in the National Archives this week you know and I I I wrote to a friend and said somebody would be at a bar or somebody would be you know but I was in the National Archives like woohoo but um so my sweet spot and and you've been wonderful over the years about allowing me to come and share my passion but my sweet spot is to try to find the story that people forgot or missed what's the story behind the story I don't want to mine you know territory that's been done over and over and over again so it takes an extraordinary amount of time and a lot of reading but I like it fortunately and I I'm a professor so I I get a lot of time off but um so I love to try to find that story that we've missed and there's not only more we don't know about history than we do know but there's some Whoppers out there still waiting um then when you actually go and do the research I feel like a a detective you know only everybody in my crime scene's been dead since 1865 or so so it makes it really challenging it must be a rush to be a paleontologist put a shovel on the ground to find a new dinosaur bone or an archaeologist that finds the tip of a pyramid or something so in some ways that's the metaphor I like to use to uncover these tidbits and then once you find out about Jubal early then you want to learn and I won't put a word down and right until I find out where he I can tell you where they were every single day during the month they marched to Washington what they ate what the weather was like how many men fell over because they all wrote it down we know you as an author a professor historian media commentator what about rock musician so um I I I'm blessed in that I have a patient uh girlfriend patient kids uh patient friends uh and I work as a professor so I always joke and say I don't have a real job but I put in 15 and 18 hour days um 3 65 uh so to de-stress I love the swim laps I love to play a little basketball and I love to play music so I play in a couple of bands from Rock to mtown to Blues to reggae to and you know there's nothing like music uh you know to just unwind and so for me it's um it saves me from hiring a a a shrink you know so that you know a few laps in a pool good game of basketball or playing some live music is good for what alss you so Robert I could do this every week oh I could too thank you so much for being here thank you the book is Rebels at the gates I'm Ann boock please join us for the next between the covers and listen to our podcast go between the covers [Music] [Applause]