>> From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Well, our connection this hour was made last week when Rochester City Council approved the sale of a number of plots of land in the Marketview Heights neighborhood.

The plan for this land is to create housing but not stick built or traditional houses.

Factory built houses.

The idea of modular homes became a hot one in Rochester, especially this past spring.

In the mayoral primary and of course, Rochester is just one place in our region where home values are soaring.

Builders tend to say there's not a great return on the investment of building new.

And for decades, the Rochester market was where you could go to get a ton of house for your money.

That has been changing.

So now the idea of factory built homes, you hear prefab, you hear modular.

It's meant to create a new category of option that could be more efficient and affordable.

Is it?

My colleague Gino Fanelli reported on this recently and says this new development will be the city's first major development of this style.

City Council member Michael Paterson called it an incredible opportunity.

He says this is just the beginning of the beginning.

So what exactly is a factory built house?

What is a modular house?

Is that what we're going to see here, or is it something else?

How much do each cost to build?

What will it cost to buy?

How scalable is this idea for a city that needs scale?

A city that needs more than just seven or 9 or 20?

Our guests this hour are here to discuss it and let me welcome them.

Now.

Michael Patterson, Rochester City Council member.

Great to have you.

Thank you for making time for us.

>> Thank you.

Good afternoon, Rochester.

My pleasure to be here.

>> Right across from Michael is Eric Frisch, the deputy commissioner of the Department of Business and Neighborhood Development.

Know need is neighborhood and business development.

I worked on this, Eric.

I gave you the still.

>> A valiant effort.

>> It was a great effort.

>> It's great to be here.

>> Thank you for being here.

And in the corner.

Hello to Jeff Cook, Managing General Partner and CEO of Cook Properties.

Thank you for taking time for the program.

>> Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

>> Next to Jeff is Mark Cohen, who's vice president of government affairs for O'Donnell and associates.

Welcome to you.

Thanks for being here.

>> Great to see you as always.

>> And my colleague Gino Fanelli is going to hang out with us this hour.

WXXI news investigative reporter who's been working on this issue, among many others.

Thanks for being here.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> So, you know, your reporting brings us up to speed on this, and we're going to talk a little bit this hour about how fast government moves or doesn't often government does not move very fast or has reasons that it can't move very quickly.

Do you see this as one that's in the category of the government is moving pretty quickly?

>> I think it is.

And I think that it's for a pretty critical reason.

I mean, you look across the state and, you know, in this context of Governor Kathy Hochul just put towards $50 million for developing 200 of these projects across the state.

Starter homes is what they're calling them.

we're in a really tough housing situation right now as a state, as a country, really.

But in Rochester, I before coming here, I was just taking a walk on North Clinton.

And, Council Member Paterson's district.

And, you know, you go through the neighborhoods and you'll see vacant lot after vacant lot after vacant lot.

And if you go through the court paperwork, you'll find there's demolition orders against derelict landlords that end up with houses that burned and then needed to be torn down, houses that became unlivable and needed to be torn down.

All these things.

What do you end up with there?

Well, you end up with big holes in neighborhoods where there's nothing built, nothing to buy.

and they just kind of fester.

And there are a lot of people that do want to buy their first house that do want to have those options.

And there's just the cost to build something new from scratch is very high in a traditional stick built house.

You know, building the frame and you know how they build a house traditionally when they do them, it's expensive.

Most people in Rochester, I would argue, probably couldn't afford to have a new build built on a plot in the city, especially in a lot of the neighborhoods where they are most needed.

>> Most people couldn't afford it in Rochester, couldn't afford it in Brighton, couldn't afford it in a lot of places.

>> Let alone.

On, North Clinton.

yeah.

Or in Marketview Heights, where these projects are located.

So these are by the estimates, I've seen significantly cheaper to, to build and it gives an opportunity to get one new development happening and to kind of push for that option for people to buy a house in the city that is of a good quality and a reasonable price.

>> So let's talk about what exactly is happening here and how it came together.

First of all Council Member Patterson, it's your district here.

You've said that this is really just the beginning of the beginning.

Why do you think this is a a win for the city and for people who need housing?

>> Well, I consider it a win for the city and people who need housing because this is high quality, affordable housing that will be owner occupied.

I did not come to the decision to support this lightly.

I've known Mark for years.

Mark Cohen reached out to me.

Hey, I want to introduce you to these guys from Cook Properties.

Met with them.

and it was interesting.

They spoke to President Melendez first, and they're like, well, okay, go talk to Mike and met with him.

And I said, okay, sounds good.

And they said, we've got a development in Palmyra if you want to come and take a look at it.

And if you choose to on the other side of Utica, we have the production facility.

You can come and take a look at that too.

And I'm like, deal.

I'll take a look at both.

When looked at the, the development in Palmyra was very impressed with the quality of the work and what we were looking at.

The cost estimates for the purchase estimates were more than impressive.

I'll let the folks from cook talk about that.

But what really sold me was then I went to the production facility.

the factory where the houses are built.

And folks, it's a factory.

It is I, you know, it's a house.

It's on two chassis and they're assembling it and it moves down an assembly line because it's a factory.

And the guys doing the roofing are not climbing up ladders to do the roofing.

There's an elevated platform that they do all the roofing from, so it's safe.

as it moves down the assembly line, you've got the insulation, you got the electrical, you got the plumbing, you got the fit, you got the finish, you got all the pieces coming together.

And then it goes out into the lot to be transported to where it's going to go.

And I'm looking at this and I'm going, you know, and I'm, I'm not going to sit here and act like I'm some old construction guy.

I'm not.

But I've seen enough houses go up that that are stick built.

And I'm looking at this going, this just makes stick built look stupid.

You know, it's just like, why are we still doing it?

I mean, and I understand why you could and why you would want to, but it's just one of those deals.

Like, you know, in weeks, not weeks in days.

The house is assembled from start to finish, ready to be transported.

And usually the holdup is getting a trucker to come by, pick it up and take it where it's got to go, and then setting it in place.

So in months, short months, we can have they can have houses built, delivered on site.

They can probably have.

And I imagine before you do, they're looking to do it on spec, but I'm sure that there'll be an owner already lined up, comes in, gets dropped in place, pretty much screwed together, and we're moving.

Ready.

How do you say no?

I don't know how you say no.

from talking to them, their first initial builds are going to be because they're spec homes.

They're not going to have a basement, but they're like, hey, if you want a basement, you can pay for basement, not these homes, but the next set.

I'm sure they're going to be folks who are going to listen to this and go, well, I don't want that kind of house.

La la la la la.

And the answer is, ladies and gentlemen, if this is not the product for you, do not buy it.

But if you're someone who would like to own a home a decent quality, affordable house where everything is on the first floor, where effectively, if you have a mobility issue, you can roll in, roll out, wheel in, wheel out, you know, walk her in, walk her out.

If that's something that's of concern to you, that that's part of your thinking, then I think you should consider this.

And I don't think they're going to have a problem selling these first nine houses at all.

I'm going to be.

And also, when I was made after doing the tour, I came back and was on the phone with the mayor, like, look, it's we got to go.

Let's find a way.

Let's get this RFP out here.

Let's see who else is interested.

But if these guys want to play.

Oh, and the best part?

They are not asking for any subsidy from government.

Their request from us was, hey, sell us some lots, baby.

We got lots we can sell you lots.

So why not?

>> What did the mayor say when.

>> He said yes?

Yeah, he said yeah.

He's.

Yeah.

And he and you know, I'll let Eric talk now because.

Because that's when, that's when the phone rang over in MVD.

I'm sure.

>> Eric Frisch, deputy commissioner of MVD.

So tell me about the city's perspective on this.

>> Yeah, I think as the council member.

very well said.

the cost to build traditional stick built homes is making it all but unreachable for most people.

Right?

To buy a new home?

there are subsidies that are available.

and we're participating in those through state programs like Ahop and, and block by block.

but but they're limited in, in how much they can do and couldn't possibly satisfy all of the, all of the demand statewide, let alone locally.

here they're also income restricted.

Of course.

Right.

So you're looking at 80% ami or below for, for those programs, a family of four would need to earn no more than $83,000 to qualify.

so important critical part of the market.

But, you know, there's a whole lot of the city that's being shut out.

to make those homes affordable, those stick built homes.

You're talking about subsidies that are at 300,000 worth of subsidy to make those homes affordable.

So obviously, that's not really sustainable in the long run at the scale that we need.

And so we need to look at alternatives.

So as the council member said we have gone out as as staff.

We've got a great professional staff at the city on the housing side and buildings and zoning to take a look at what are the manufactured products, what are the modular products, what's out there?

We can familiarize ourselves and we said, let's get an RFP out there.

It's really well timed.

Given all of the interest and discussion taking place.

Let's get a request for proposals out there for modular and manufactured home builders.

We will put a series of clusters of home sites into that RFP, and we'll accept proposals and see what we get.

And ultimately, we did get a number of proposals.

but we selected, cook properties.

It's a proven builder.

It's a proven product.

They're ready to go.

and so those seven lots, those nine homes, we're in the process of all of the mechanics behind getting these ready to go.

And we're really looking forward to working with cook and seeing how it goes.

>> So let's make sure we understand some terms here.

Because you've been hearing factory built.

You hear modular.

So I think of it as factory built.

The bigger umbrella modular falls within those.

In this case we're not talking about modular homes.

We're talking about manufactured homes.

Jeff, can you do some some terms for us and describe how this happens?

>> Sure.

So yeah.

Under that that umbrella of, of factory built housing, we have modular housing, which modulars are built also in a factory, but they're built as, as modules.

they do not have a chassis or their own own mode of transportation.

They're lifted onto a flatbed trailer.

they're delivered to the site, and then they are craned onto the site and put together essentially, like, like Legos.

you can kind of think of them that way.

Whereas manufactured housing, which is our what our specialty is those are built also in a factory, but they are delivered on their own chassis.

They have their own axles and wheels once, once the the home is delivered to the to the site, the the axles and the wheels are removed, but the chassis stays because that serves as the part of the foundation for the home.

>> And so in this case, you've got nine homes that have been on order, I guess.

Is that the right term?

>> We haven't ordered them yet, but we do have what we want to order picked out.

>> These are slab ranches.

Is that right?

>> They are one story ranches.

Yep, yep.

>> So no basement.

So slab ranches.

And how many square feet?

>> They're going to range in square feet between 12 and 1512.

>> And 1503.

>> Bedrooms, two baths.

>> Three and two, two full.

Yep.

Three and two full.

and take me through a little bit of what it actually means that some of the financial numbers, what it means for for you because this is a first toe in the water and you know, you are not a charity, you are a business.

You will do this.

If this makes sense.

Why does it make sense to start this, to at least see for you?

>> volume.

I mean, we, you know, we are a for profit company.

we own manufactured housing communities throughout the state.

this is a new a new endeavor for us.

you know, we we primarily came to this as a way to help help the city and help low income residents to afford housing to afford their own home.

you know, I grew up in a in a home you know, myself with my with my family.

we have a home now, and I can't imagine not having a home.

We understand how important it is to to to have a home, how important it is for the society at large, how important it is for the the economy.

and the reason being is the homeowners in general in general are, again, better citizens.

They pay their taxes better.

they're just everyone, everyone most people want, want, want to have a home.

And the qualities that that provide for successful home ownership are good for the are good for the the overall economy and the society.

one of the things that we've learned through our manufactured housing land lease endeavors we we try not to own any other homes in our community.

So they are land lease communities.

The residents pay us lot rent, but we've also found, as I mentioned earlier, that through statistics that the residents that own their own homes are better lot payers, they take better care of their lots they take better care of their homes.

so we wanted to we wanted to promote that.

>> what is the possible future investment here?

This is nine homes, but are we talking in the future you can envision doing how what kind of scale for the city?

>> Hundreds, hundreds.

literally hundreds.

Literally hundreds.

I mean, as we know, the city has approximately 3000 vacant lots that are owned by the city.

my my goal would be to do 100 homes per year for the next.

I mean, we could do it for a long, long time.

Maybe we do more than 100. right now we do 100 and 120 to 150 brand new homes in our land lease communities throughout New York State.

So again, all over the state, doing 100, 100 to 150 homes just in the city of Rochester for us would be.

>> It would be, I don't want to say easy, but it we could do it.

>> Okay.

And so, you know, in reading your reporting, one of the reasons that Michael's quote, this is the beginning of the beginning stuck out to me was if this becomes the only story, it doesn't put a dent in housing, right?

I mean, there has to be scale.

There has to be a solution of some kind that goes beyond seven or nine or 15 or 20.

>> Oh yeah, nine houses does not make a difference in the housing issues that we have here.

But if it proves effective and it proves to be an attractive thing that people can invest in, then yeah, it can grow from there.

And I think that we are in the kind of position where we desperately need that.

Like we need an alternative to the the way the housing market here, especially particularly for first time homebuyers, has functioned.

and again, this is not just a Rochester issue.

This is a national housing problem that it's becoming particularly increasingly inaccessible for people to buy their first home due to just the cost of housing going up and the cost of a new build being so astronomical.

This is an alternative that could make a difference in that.

>> Yeah.

I mean, I haven't checked Zillow's sort of heat index in a while, but Rochester was at the very top of, you know, growth in terms of prices and numbers and the challenge for for new buyers, for home buyers, sellers.

Great.

But if you're a seller who still has to buy something, it's not so great.

I mean, it's been tough for a while for buyers.

>> I mean, I could say personally, I'm a renter that lives in the city that would like to buy in the city, and I have a good stable job.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, yeah.

Hey.

Yeah.

>> Well, you know.

>> I have a job and they.

It's not looking good out there.

it it it is tough.

and that is the reality.

I think a lot of people that are my age that are probably thinking about buying their first house are coming up against and that's it's a tough prospect.

>> Well, average age, as Mark Siwiec told us recently on this program, average age of a first time home buyer in our region is now 39.

It was 28 a generation ago.

It's a huge, huge jump.

And that's to Jeff's point.

Probably not a sign of a healthy market that people would want to arrest or reverse.

Let's talk some numbers.

But before we jump into the actual numbers, I want to ask about the actual goals here.

So, Michael, I want to ask you, as a member of council, when you think about the housing problem we have is the goal of this project, which is the seed of hopefully something bigger.

Everyone is saying is the goal to create more housing stock, is it to create a housing stock of affordable prices when everything else is insane?

Is it to maybe arrest the trend of upward prices and try to eventually bring the market back to some sort of sanity?

I mean, how would you describe the goal here?

>> All of the above.

I mean, so that one's easy.

so look, I've been advocating for quality affordable housing for the longest.

The big the main work of the advocacy was rental housing, because that's where everybody starts, you know, nobody, as a general rule, unless mom or dad gives you a house, nobody starts out as a homeowner.

And so as we're making that, we're doing that work.

I look back at my own life and, and how I transitioned from living in affordable housing, not even knowing what affordable housing was.

When I first got married, it was like, hey, we got to live somewhere.

We applied to ten Manhattan Square.

We got accepted and okay, this works.

And everything was included.

Great.

Wonderful.

As time went on, wife, kids, you know, went down to recertify one day.

They were like, okay, dude, you got to move.

What?

What do you mean we got to move?

They're like, look, it's you, your wife, three kids, and you snuck your mom in and you're in a two bedroom apartment.

You got to move.

And I'm going, well, okay.

And they're like, stop, stop, stop freaking out.

There's a there's a three bedroom down the hall.

You can move there.

I'm like, well, how much?

And for what?

They the price that they quoted me at that time I'm like, well pardon my language.

I was like, well, hell, I could buy a house.

So I did.

Folks don't have that option, that choice anymore.

There is.

So, you know, we have this.

We keep talking about first time home buyers.

Well, in the northeast, the vast majority of people are not first time home buyers.

They might be a first time home buyer, but this is going to be their only home purchase.

My folks buy the house age in place, and when they leave, they leave it.

Just leave it like that.

They don't.

As a general rule, buy a bigger house somewhere.

Some of them do decide to move to the suburbs, but for the most part, if you buy a house in the northeast, you're home.

This is where you're going to be.

So when I don't have housing stock, it's hard for people to make that transition.

And, you know, in the northeast, the vast majority of folks are working class.

We're poor, we're working class.

I got to have options for people to have that housing stability.

Look, I'm kind of joke that, like my mortgage, I'm just going to say my mortgage is less than $600 a month.

Double house.

You know, I moved my mother in law.

My mother in law used to live with us.

my whole family's.

There.

Was their son recently moved out $600 a month.

I joke that I could pick up cans and pay my mortgage.

My son pays more in rent for the apartment.

He almost pays double for his his two bedroom apartment than I pay for a two family house.

>> Right.

>> It is imperative that we create more owner occupied opportunities.

Just the income stability I have.

You know, everybody's talking about generational wealth.

More like generational stability.

This is the, you know, in black and brown communities.

It's the family house.

And a lot of times you'll find families where, you know, auntie, grandma, whoever paid off the house, somebody needs to stay there.

Okay, go stay there.

That house gets transferred back and forth in those families.

We don't have them.

We don't have enough of them.

So whatever we can do to increase the housing stock in any way we can, more rental, more owner, more everything.

The answer is yes.

And I'm intense about yes.

You know, how do we get more?

What do you want to do?

Sounds good.

Let's go.

You know, shared housing.

Let's go.

You know, supportive housing, whatever.

Supportive housing.

Right.

Housing first options.

Whatever.

Let's go.

Yes, yes, yes.

The northeast is open.

Come on in.

>> Deputy Commissioner Frisch, you heard my colleague Gino Fanelli say earlier that, you know, when people see these vacant lots, they often think, well, this is an easy thing.

Just build there.

You got all these lots.

Now.

And there's how many vacant lots in the city?

I mean, what's the number?

>> I believe it's it's around 3000.

>> 3000 lots.

So people are going well that's, you know, there's 3000 houses.

just from the perspective of the city, I'm sure Jeff could weigh in on this too, but we're well past the point of just asking builders like, here's a lot.

This should be the math should add up.

The math doesn't add up anymore.

So what's the goal in your mind?

If factory built becomes more scalable, what do you think you can accomplish?

>> Yeah, yeah.

It's really it's it's about creating a new way to generate that that supply and disrupt this, this ecosystem that we have that's keeping Gino from being able to to buy a home.

Gino and thousands of others like him that are shut out of the market right now when people are stuck in the home, they are in there preventing somebody else from being able to move into that home.

And it just cascades from there.

I wish it was as simple as saying, we've got 3000 vacant lots.

Come build on them, and everybody would would build.

There's a lot that goes into that.

There's a lot of work to prepare, a lot for housing construction.

Some of that work is on our end, some of it is on our our development partners.

But if we can identify these products, demonstrate that they work, they bring the cost down, the time to bring them to market, we can start to really make some of these hopefully hundreds of these lots turn them into owner occupied home sites.

>> Jeff said they could maybe do a hundred a year.

Is the city good with that?

I mean, like, do you think that's plausible?

>> We certainly think it's plausible to build hundreds of owner occupied homes across the city.

>> Every year.

>> Why not?

The market is there.

and I think the market is there for affordable.

The market is there for market rate.

And we've got to do all of it.

>> I think about Michael's point, about what your mortgage is, and I think about right now, if you're in the market to buy it, this is such a hard time because it wasn't that long ago that what Michael was describing was much more widely available.

Yeah, this is a timing issue and a wow, things changed fast issue for a lot of people who thought, okay, maybe I can't buy a house in 2020, I'll buy 1 in 2025.

And all of a sudden bang.

>> Gone.

>> You know, if you saw the price, what the mortgage is on my street versus what people could get today.

Probably same for you.

It's incredible.

It's incredible.

The difference.

>> I look at some of the listing prices for houses in my neighborhood, and I look at what I paid for my house, and I'm going, what kind of mortgage fraud is going on here?

And it's not.

It's just it's, look, Rochester has always been cheap.

The difference was the world didn't know that we were cheap.

So now you've got folks who live in other you know, you got the folks who live in California with a itty bitty little bungalow that would be, you know, a two family, two family house in California.

It's a million plus.

Well, they look at Rochester, you know, hey, I can take the equity in my house and buy three here for nothing, and I will, and I'll get some rent money, and that's a whole 'nother problem and a whole 'nother show.

But it's.

We've been discovered.

And because, folks, you can work from home and work anywhere in the world now, why not live here?

Why not buy here?

I can camp out.

I'm as nice and as beautiful house in a nice neighborhood.

I can get wherever I got to go.

I got a nice little small medium airport to fly out of.

I can go where I got to go.

Do what I got to do.

Get back home and still bank money where we've been discovered.

And most of upstate has been discovered.

And I just one other thing I want to mention too, is that, you know, there are folks out here going, I don't know, sounds kind of shady.

Look, it's not just us.

it's funny is that we're pushing forward with this pilot, but the state, in its infinite wisdom, supported this in happening in Buffalo and Syracuse.

First, how they missed us, I do not know, but they did.

and they're, their, their, their units are up and running and getting ready to go.

I think Syracuse has got delivery of of housing.

I think Buffalo's on deck for 20 already.

there's an RFP out that's going to be coming out for the 50 million.

There's another the 50 million.

>> Move in New York.

>> Move in New York.

We're looking to I'm sure we're we're looking to pursue that, Eric.

We're looking to pursue that.

Yeah.

>> We're definitely looking.

>> To pursue that.

So we can we can get some more money to to scale this out there.

But you know, look, we are doing traditional stick built housing before my committee.

We'll be talking about it on Tuesday.

We're we're, we're having we're handing some more money to habitat for our block to block by the block program.

And it's because the housing costs went up.

And, you know, we had the committee review meeting of it yesterday, and I'm looking at the legislation.

And one of the tables is like where we're spending, it's going to cost $500,000 to build a three bedroom, one three bedroom house.

in the in the southwest.

And I'm like, you know, your eyes just water.

Now we're going to subsidize the heck out of it to get it down to affordability.

But what five, five, five, 500,000 to build?

Ladies and gentlemen, I humbly submit to you that without a subsidy, a $500,000 cost, no one's going to build a market rate.

No one's ever going to build a market rate house in Rochester, because no one is going to say, and I don't really I think it would be challenging to say that there's any neighborhood in Rochester that most folks would say, I'll pay $500,000 for a standard regular house.

You know, just like, nah, I don't want to play.

>> So after we come back from this break, we're going to talk about what these houses are going to cost, what these factory built houses.

We'll talk to Jeff.

We'll talk to our guests about what the numbers look like, what they expect the market to be.

again, we're talking about factory built houses.

You often hear modular.

These aren't technically modular.

Modulars in the family of these kinds of houses, these are manufactured houses, but similar.

And it is a small scale that they are starting with nine houses in the Market View Heights neighborhood that if this works, the City of Rochester has aims of doing this by the hundreds in the not too distant future.

I also want to hear from Mark Cohen on the other side of this break about how, you know, does this line up with what's happening in Buffalo?

Syracuse?

is that is there state money for this?

I mean, what is the governor's agenda actually look like?

What does legislation do?

Because the question on how you build housing affordably, I was going to say cheaply, forget cheaply, just not exorbitantly across the country.

It's a problem in California and it's everywhere.

So we're coming back.

We're talking about what's happening here and what may be next, based on how this whole project goes.

We'll come right back.

Coming up in our second hour, one of the biggest events of the year aimed at helping with the issue of youth homelessness is Fashion Week.

Rochester.

And if that feels a little jarring, one of the co-founders of Fashion Week and the executive director of the center for youth, says she understands.

But we can do both.

We can have a good time on the runway.

We can center the kids who need it.

We can center designers who need it, and we can do things differently.

And she's going to talk about how next our.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Jiva theater presenting singer Nicole Henry in the concert Voices of Broadway, an event to celebrate Geneva's arts programing.

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>> This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson nine factory built homes, manufactured homes from Cook Properties coming to the city of Rochester.

Northeast district.

The timeline Jeff Cook what's a what's an effective timeline here for this project?

>> we're hoping to get site work going here towards the end of the year and have homes ready for the spring selling season.

>> Spring selling?

Yep.

So maybe by Mother's Day, these houses are on the market.

>> A little sooner.

Yeah.

February.

March.

>> Yep.

Even earlier than that.

All right.

So that's going to be fast.

Yep.

What's the price tag going to be again.

Tell people the size.

It's a slab home.

So no basement.

one floor, three bedrooms, two full baths, 12 to 1500.

>> Square, 12 to 1500 square feet, plus or -$150,000.

>> Plus or -150.

So it could be a little south, a little north of that.

Yep.

Okay.

>> We'll have different models.

So they'll range in price a little bit.

>> what happens if there's all this demand and people are saying, well, I'll bid 200.

>> Yeah.

We're not going to do that on these ones.

>> You're not.

>> Doing that.

No, no.

>> Okay.

So how do you choose buyers.

Because you're going to have nine buyers aren't you.

>> Yeah.

Be first come first serve.

>> Okay.

I mean council member people are going to be fighting over this here.

>> We'll do we'll do more then.

>> Okay.

All right.

Well I'll get you there.

But but how do you feel about the price?

is there going to be a market for that price?

>> 100.

Well, that's that's what sold me.

I mean, you know, that's that's what we're seeing for the most part in a lot of especially where the locations are that we're looking at, those are not unreasonable numbers at all.

you know, and, and I really want to stress that all they asked us to do was sell them the lots.

There is no government subsidy in this other than, hey, sell us some lots, sell you some lots.

We got plenty here.

So, so 150, you know, 150 K you know, it's three times.

That's roughly three times what I paid for my house 20 years ago.

So, you know, my mind is still boggled.

But I'm not buying a house.

20 years ago.

I'm buying a house now.

So this these numbers ain't crazy.

And, you know, to your point, are we going to have nine buyers?

Oh, yeah.

There's going to be nine buyers.

Like there sold.

You know, the challenge and the question is going to be, you know, I'm sure there's somebody sitting out there right now.

So how do I get to Jeff Cook to get on the list.

That's right.

You know, how do I give this guy a deposit now?

Because there's I'm sure there's somebody out there going, where where the lot and the lot locations are public record.

So it's not like we're hiding the locations.

you know, one, three of them are right by the public market and walk literally the back there in the backside parking lot of the public market.

one's right over on North Goodman.

Two of them are over on North Goodman Street.

we've got the we've got a couple over in the northwest.

>> On Wilder Street.

>> Right.

We're on Wilder, you know.

So, so there are people like, I'm sure that if they put up a notice of this is who we are and this is what we're doing, and he's saying first come, first serve, I think they'd all be sold this afternoon.

>> They're going to sell.

And I'm reading Gino's story.

The cost to complete a build is expected to come in at $250,000.

What is going on with the numbers here, Jeff Cook, square this up for me.

You're going to sell for 150,000, but your price up front is going to be more than that.

>> I don't know where that where that number came from.

>> Mark Cohen's going to grab the mic and jump in here.

>> I think maybe that was in reference to the home that just sold in Syracuse, New York, and that was one of the three that that that was listed as part of this move in New York program.

So there's one in Schenectady, one in Syracuse, one in Newcomb.

>> This is what I'm reading too fast of Gina's story.

You're right.

That's not the estimate.

>> You're putting me on.

>> The spot.

>> Thank you.

Gina, those were state numbers.

>> Okay, so some some state numbers here.

Okay, so what we're talking about is in other places, we've seen quarter million dollars.

What is the up front cost for cook here.

That's what I'm curious if you're going to sell 450,000 what is the number here.

How tight is the margin.

>> so we're we're expecting to make if we're if it goes, everything goes.

Well.

We would like to make $10,000 per per lot per home.

>> Okay.

>> So so not not an exorbitant amount.

Most, most private home builders are looking to earn 2015 to 20%.

bottom line again, this is something we want to test out.

And, you know, we're we'd be happy with 10%.

>> Could you lose money on this?

>> We could, we could.

>> Is it likely?

>> I don't think so.

>> You don't think so?

No.

>> I'm generally not in the business of losing money.

>> Well, I, I understand that if you make ten K per house, is it worth it for you to to make 100 of these next year?

Is that enough of a margin for you to stay in it?

>> It would be.

Yep.

>> Yep okay.

>> And because of the scale okay.

>> Mark, I want to ask you a little bit too about how this lines up with some of the work that's happening elsewhere.

They mentioned Buffalo, they mentioned Syracuse.

There are all kinds of initiatives in places across the country to do anything they can to increase housing stock.

What's going on here?

>> So I want to just to your last question, cause it's an important one.

And having worked with Jeff for this last year or so, the purpose of this type of project, the urban infill working with Councilman Patterson and the mayor's administration, Deputy Commissioner Frisch, of course, Jeff is in it and Cook Properties is in it.

There are for profit company.

The purpose of this particular initiative, what they're trying to do with this urban infill, is to improve the communities where they're located.

They're the largest owner developer in the state of New York.

They care about these communities.

They want these communities to be better and enhanced.

And this is one way to get to it.

It's not altruism.

It's it's just recognizing the right thing to do.

This is the business Jeff's in.

And so yes, you know, not losing money would be great.

but but, you know, it's important to realize that there's sort of a bigger, a bigger cause afoot.

the effort, the move in New York effort which which the councilman and deputy commissioner talked about is is outstanding.

The governor has put this forward as part of her $1.5 billion housing initiative, announced in her 2026 budget.

this program, with the 200 manufactured homes, modular homes is is, as Gino has said, and his other articles said, it's not going to fix the problem, but it's a recognition by government that we have to do something differently.

And I'll take this opportunity to just have your listeners understand.

So often we hear about the inefficiencies of government, the ineffectiveness of government.

You have a mayor and Mayor Evans, a deputy mayor, and Mike Burns and a neighborhood and business development office under under Dana miller and Erik Frisch, who have recognized a problem and worked toward a solution.

You have a councilman who chairs the committee who recognized the problem, who put forth a process, who had meetings, went through a proper RFP process, made a decision, and then put that decision into action.

Evan, that's not housing policy.

That's housing that is doing the work.

And I just think it's important for your listeners to recognize that this is an example of something working.

>> I mean, look.

>> I will I will give you credit for that point that this is an example of government working pretty quickly on an issue that has traditionally been very slow.

If we're not sitting here in two years talking about a hundred houses, then I think that it becomes a different story.

I think if this is the seed for something that really does start to scale into the hundreds, then we will talk about something effective.

If it's still in the single digits or dozens, then it probably doesn't move the needle that much on housing, right?

>> You're absolutely right.

And I think what we've heard here today and what we're seeing, not just in New York State, but across the country, would show that that's not going to be the case.

There's too much of a demand for housing.

There are too many people looking to stop paying 12, 15, $1,800 for rent in Rochester, not to mention higher elsewhere.

where there are opportunities to live in a in a high quality, affordable, quickly built home.

I just think there's too much demand.

And I think there are too many people like you out there, Evan, who are going to hold these folks accountable to ensure that it happens.

>> Well, I mean, Gino will as well.

I mean.

>> And Gino.

>> Gino doesn't do PR.

Gino is glad to point out, if we sit here in a year, if we sit here in two and three and it's five homes a year, it's ten homes a year.

That's a nice story for a small amount of families.

That is not a city changing story.

>> No, no it's not.

>> But but it's I think everyone acknowledges that.

That's the good news, right?

No one is fighting to say that this is the end.

The council member said.

This is the beginning of the beginning.

>> Yeah.

And and that was the reason I, you know, was interested in this to begin with is.

Yeah, this is a small amount to start with.

And it is a, a precedent being made.

And but yeah, if two years pass and there's nine or 20 or 30 houses and that's it, that's that's not fixing that doesn't do anything to address the problem or the scope of the problem that we have here.

I mean Eric mentioned that we have, what, 3000 vacant lots in the city?

if you're concerned, I think it's important to understand for people listening why that matters when you have 3000 vacant lots in the city, that's 3000 places that are not where people live.

That's not where a business is.

That's not where anything that's doing anything to contribute to the economy or the social well-being of the city.

>> Is I.

>> Like community gardens and little parks and neighborhoods, but we don't I don't know if we need 3000.

>> I think.

>> We need some houses.

>> I think I think we need some houses.

And I think if you care about the health of the city, whether from an economic standpoint, from a crime standpoint, from any real standpoint, we need housing development and we need it to go to people, not just developers who want to, you know, buy up a house for $350,000, paint it primer gray, then rent it out to a bunch of college students.

We don't need more of that.

We need people to be able to buy their houses.

>> Okay.

>> You agree with that, Deputy commissioner?

>> Yeah, absolutely.

>> And we know that blocks, residential blocks that are a supermajority of owner occupied occupants are more stable.

That stability than leads to all of these quality of life factors improving.

So it's important the mayor has always said, I want to get this homeownership number up.

we want to get it with our peers and hire it takes building more homes for homeownership.

>> we have a lot of good questions.

So let me just rip through as many questions as we can on YouTube.

Virginia says homes that come on a chassis with wheels sound like a trailer.

I have concern that owning the housing unit, but leasing the land can be a problem.

Anybody want to hit that?

>> Yeah, so they will not.

The homeowners in and the city will not be leasing the land.

We will be selling the land along with the home.

>> Okay.

>> and something else to just a national statistic.

98% of brand new manufactured homes, once they are sited, they never move.

They never move.

It just doesn't make dollars.

It doesn't make dollars and cents to move them.

>> Okay.

>> Virginia, I hope that answers that point there.

Charles says good food and a roof over your head is a basic human right.

I love this plan.

By the way, I bought a house in San Diego in the 80s.

It was 1054ft and no basement.

And I felt like the luckiest person.

That's what I mean, Charles.

That's what the team here wants people to feel that that same idea.

Michelle says, how much would it cost to add a basement to these homes?

Two.

So Michelle has two questions.

That's the first one.

How much would it cost to add a basement?

>> 30 to 40,000.

>> 30 to 40.

And that would need to be done before your purchasing.

Or can you do it after?

No.

Can't do it after.

>> Not.

>> Yeah, that doesn't really make sense.

Okay.

So that's not going to be for these first nine.

That'll be for future waves possibly.

Okay.

>> Yeah.

After after these ones we could do custom custom homes.

You know, depending on what they want.

>> Michelle also says her understanding is that some insurance companies only cover modular homes and not manufactured homes.

Is that correct?

>> We have insurance companies that cover manufactured.

>>, so insurance will cover.

>> Correct?

>> Okay, Michelle, I hope that answers that question.

John wants to know how much is the city selling the lots for.

We'll get.

Sorry, Jean I'll jump in in a second.

Here.

John wants to know what is the city selling these 3000 lots for per?

>> Yeah, it's basically $1,000 or less per.

Per lot, which is market.

Its appraised value.

That's our.

>> Appraised value.

>> Yeah.

I think with like seven grand total for all the lots.

>> It's what we sell.

Yeah.

It's whatever the appraised value was for the lot.

That's what.

>> We sold.

Giving them away.

>> No no no.

>> But I mean that's a song, man.

A thousand bucks a lot.

Absolutely.

That is a song.

I mean, it's not nothing, but it is the appraised value.

Okay, Gino, you want to jump in on something here, did.

>> I miss?

No.

I'm good.

I was just stretching.

>> Oh, okay.

I'm just running down the list here.

Tim, is there any program in the city to keep people in their homes?

It's one thing to make a home affordable to purchase, but the cost of maintaining a house is skyrocketing.

For instance, replacing a roof is running $20,000 plus for a senior.

It pushes you to the edge.

Thank you.

That's from Tim.

It's a good.

well point.

>> So I guess that'll be me and Eric.

So yeah, we have a range of programs you can reach out to the take a look at the city website.

We've got those there.

one of the things that we've had for years and I'm still nudging to get up and running again for this year, is our roofing lottery that's been running for years.

It is a lottery based program because there were some complaints when I first came on.

Council back in, 2013. there were complaints from the community like, hey man, it seems like you guys do this roofing program and the money shows up, you know, Monday at nine and Monday's Monday's available Monday at 9 a.m.

and by Monday, nine, eight, nine, ten, all the money is gone.

This doesn't seem fair.

So we have a lottery program now.

We've had one for years.

where, you know, we can't guarantee that you'll get a roof, but we have a process.

You go through the process, you can get selected.

we haven't run it yet this year, but I know I've been talking to the mayor and deputy mayor about it.

I know we should be having something coming out at some point in time soon.

I'm not going to get in front of them.

But no, we have we have a range of different programs.

especially for senior citizens for aging in place, and we're always looking for more.

But at the same time, wouldn't be a bad idea to mention to your state representatives who have a whole lot more more money than we do that.

Hey, we need more programs for aging in place and repairing homes, homes for senior citizens.

You know, we know how to administer it.

We know how to get it out.

we know how to supervise it.

And we're pretty good at it.

>> you want to grab the mic over there?

I want to get Mark and Eric on this.

Go ahead, Mark.

>> I do.

And just to answer and not directly to your to your asker's question, but to to the councilman's point about the state delegation.

I want to shout out Assemblymember Clark, as well as former Assemblyman Billy Jones, for pushing A7512, which would to the affordability point it would make right now what manufactured homes are considered personal property.

It would make them real property.

And and what that does is unlock financing options.

It unlocks access to far lower rates to, to to borrow and truly goes to the heart of what this issue is, which is affordability.

It gives folks access to these homes in a sustainable way and allows them to build generational wealth.

The bill passed the Assembly unanimously passed the Senate unanimously bipartisan, across across the aisle.

And it's on the governor's desk.

And with.

>> Governor going.

>> To sign it.

Well, we hope so.

With all of her efforts.

It was it was referenced in in a few articles that this is a major problem, a major barrier to manufactured housing.

And with all of the governor's incredible support of this, of this industry, it would be it would be great to to see we've been working with our office.

She's her her her staff has been great.

Jeff Cook and his team have been great in getting them the information they need, but it goes to the affordability piece because because being able to finance a home like this is critical.

>> Is there any reason that the governor wouldn't sign this?

>> Well, I don't I don't want to speculate on, you know, why or why do you expect.

>> The governor.

>> To sign this?

Oh, we hope we hope the governor will sign it.

We have we very much hope.

I don't want to get out ahead of anything.

I don't have any indication one way, but.

But we hope she does.

>> Anything you want to add here, Deputy Commissioner Frisch?

>> I would just say Tim made a great observation.

keeping owner occupants in their owner occupied home is a big part of of the challenge, right.

And making sure that we have the programs and the resources to help with those rehab roofing lead abatement and all of the other programs that we offer.

Big part of that.

>> okay, we're going to get as many as we can here.

We got a lot of good questions and phone calls here.

John and Edward next on the phone for this is John on the phone in Rochester.

Hey, John, go ahead.

>> Hi.

what are the efficiencies involved?

What number of man hours does each mode of production involve?

>> A good question.

How efficient?

How many man hours?

Here?

>> I can't speak to the exact number of man hours.

but just to give you some comparison a site built house, you're looking around $300, 250 to $300 per square foot.

Manufactured housing.

You're about $100 per square foot.

The the big the big the reason they're so efficient is, as Councilman Patterson mentioned earlier, our homes are built in a factory.

and built in an assembly line on a on an assembly line in a factory where a site built homes are just much, much less efficient process.

>> Okay.

that cover it, Mark.

Pretty good job there.

>> Did a great job.

I just wanted to also point out how sustainable this is.

Whereas most homes that are undergoing renovations have a huge dumpster in the front that's emptied multiple times, an entire project, an entire home will be the waste will be in 160 gallon toter.

That's it.

>> Katie wants to know if you walk into one of these homes, would you know that it is factory built?

She said modular again, these are not technically modular.

These are.

But they're in that family of factory built homes.

Katie wants to know if you walk into one of these homes, does it feel like any normal stick built home?

>> Yes.

as the guy who who was who walked into them.

Yes.

It feels there's, you know, unless they tell you, you're not going to know.

There's no, you know it's like, you know, the fit and the finishes and the material, it's all there.

it's solid.

I wouldn't I wouldn't be advocating for it or recommending it if it was substandard in any way, shape or form.

>> Okay.

>> Jeff.

Yeah.

The the the the change in cost, the lower cost comes from the how it's built.

Not not what it's built with, it's built with the same materials that any site built home is built with vinyl, plastic, steel, wood, et cetera.

So.

>> Okay.

Katie, hope that answers that question.

Dan and Webster next.

Hey, Dan, go ahead.

Are you there?

Dan, I missed it.

That was user error.

Dan.

Start over.

That was my fault.

Go ahead.

>> Dan okay.

similar question about the construction because I heard modular, then I heard manufactured.

Then there was a question that related to a trailer on wheels.

This is built on the concrete slab.

Correct?

This is not on a steel frame with wheels like a trailer park.

>> Jeff.

>> Yeah, so, no, that is how it's built.

It's built on a chassis.

it is delivered on wheels.

once it's sited on the on the concrete pad or the footers, the foundation the wheels and the the the axles are removed which become part of the permanent foundation.

>> Does that answer the question?

Dan?

>> Yeah.

So there's a short height of skirting all around the base of this.

That's correct.

That's on a steel chassis minus the wheels.

>> That's correct.

Yep, yep.

And the skirting that we use these days is you can barely tell.

It's skirting.

it has decorative features.

It can be.

It can be made to look like brick.

It can be made to look like shaker siding.

you add some landscaping, and it looks, again, no different than a site built home.

>> Okay, Dan, thank you very much for the phone call.

Abby.

Emails to ask, are these homes going to gentrify the neighborhoods where they are going to be built?

What do you think about that, counselor?

>> I don't think that case.

I don't think that's the case at all.

I think if you go back and again, our locations where they're going are listed, you look at what's the sale price in those neighborhoods right now, it's about comparable you know, I just don't see that happening and not yeah, I just don't see that happening.

>> How do you define can you give me, like, a 22nd definition of gentrification?

Is that.

>> Possible?

Well, I for in my mind, gentrification is when you run out the people that already live in the neighborhood, and you replace them with people who don't live in the neighborhood.

if I'm, you know, so.

But when I'm looking at where we're looking at putting these, you know, three, you know, two houses off of North Goodman is not going to fundamentally change the scope.

And late in life of the neighborhood, three houses off of Silo Street is not going to significantly change the scope and feel of the neighborhood.

same thing over on Wilder.

And I think we've also got one over in the in the South District too.

I don't remember, but no.

So with these, no the challenge though is as we go forward and we work with the state to grab those subsidy dollars, you know, how do we structure this in a manner and form so that the people who live in the neighborhood, who are renters have access to this opportunity?

That's the main point.

And, you know, it's kind of funny because we've already got some existing structures in the community.

We've got an organization called NACA that I helped to attract to Rochester.

They've been here for years, and part of their challenge and, you know, part of their challenge is the challenge that everybody has, that there's no inventory out there.

So we're so yeah, I'm not really I don't as a general rule, I'm not seeing this gentrifying.

You know, all of a sudden changing the whole face and form of a neighborhood.

>> Last minute.

Gino Fanelli what are the questions you have going forward now?

>> going forward is well, I, I'm keeping an eye on the actually getting built through the, the spring.

And then what comes next?

I mean, will it hit that point where we're doing hundreds a year, I mean, or a hundred a year?

Yeah.

that's the question.

I think that's an unanswerable question right now.

But it's going to be interesting to watch.

And honestly, anything that's going to get development to happen for homes, I think could ultimately be a good thing.

if it works.

>> Well, you all come back in six months and talk about what's happened.

the same panel should come back because I want to I want to see what those final sale prices are, how close they are to 150.

I want to I want to know by the spring is the city of Rochester so satisfied that they've ordered 100 from you or 200 or 50?

I mean, I want to see.

Is that too aggressive?

Deputy Commissioner?

It's a timetable.

>> I don't know if we'll be the ones doing the ordering, but no, I don't.

I hope that's not too aggressive.

>> Well, I think a better question would be, you know, if we come back.

What is your RFP status?

how many lots do you have?

Are you on offer for this type of development?

And what is your what is your plan for subsidizing costs?

Because part of the thing is, for lack of a better way of putting it, when government gets more involved, the price goes up.

So in an instance where all we have to do is sell you lots, you get one price.

In an instance where we start making demands on what you're going to be putting into the property, the cost goes up there might there may well be some subsidy in there, and that may well impact how many we can do and when we can do them.

>> Well, you come back and talk to us sometime soon.

Thank you very much, Councilmember.

Thanks for sharing your time.

Deputy Commissioner, first, thank you for sharing your time.

Jeff Cook from Cook Properties.

Thank you Jeff.

Thank you.

Nice having you.

Mark Cohen from O'Donnell associates.

Thank you Mark.

Thank you Gino Fanelli great work as always.

Thank you sir.

Thank you.

More connections coming up.

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