>> From WXXI.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

>> Our connection this hour is made in an FBI report about police department staffing across the country.

In the past decade, some consistent themes have emerged, not confined to any one state or city.

The report calls it a staffing crisis in American cities, characterized by a significant drop in police applicants.

Hi.

Resignation rates in police departments and a surge in retirements, larger urban departments have more trouble attracting enough candidates.

But in general, police departments are losing officers faster than they can hire them.

The Rochester Police Department has been talking about this for several years now.

Mayor Malik Evans has noted that the RPD is nearly 100 officers, down from its employment goal.

The RPD has been working on changing that with recruiting efforts aimed at filling the open positions and ideally also becoming a more diverse police force.

In Rochester, 38% of the citizenry is black, according to reporting by Kayla Cain at the Democrat and Chronicle.

Last year.

The RPD is roughly 10% black.

It's 86% white.

Now, there are some critics, including the former deputy chief of the FBI, Dan Bongino, who say that focusing on diversity numbers in policing is just woke nonsense.

The RPD appears to disagree.

They are working explicitly with, for example, immigrant and refugee communities.

They've been recognized for their efforts in diversifying the force or trying to do that.

But regardless of racial background, the Rochester Police Department needs more men and women on the force.

And this hour, we're talking about the full picture of local policing and what they are doing about that with our guests from the RPD.

Sergeant Justin Collins is back with us.

Sergeant, nice to have you.

Thank you for being here.

>> Yeah, thanks for having me.

>> Back.

And welcome to Officer Otto Pena from the Rochester Police Department.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> So let me just start with the basics here.

Sergeant Collins.

We've heard from the mayor, we've heard from members of council, and we've heard from your department for the last several years.

It's roughly a give or take 100 officers down from where you want to be.

What's the number right now?

Where are you at?

>> I think we're a little over 100 down.

I want to say like maybe 115 right around there.

>> And why primarily do you think that is?

>> We're not able to keep up with the rate of retirements.

I mean, I think it's, as you mentioned at the start of this, that it's across the country that law enforcement staffing is down and people are able to retire after 20 years.

And many of them are retiring, whereas people in the past would stay for 2530.

Now they're quickly retiring as soon as possible.

And why that is, there's a litany of reasons why that is, but it's definitely the issue is that people are retiring faster than we can get candidates to get hired.

>> When do you get to your 20?

>> I have had my 20 for three years.

I'm working on my 23rd year.

>> Okay.

And so how come you haven't retired?

>> I love this city.

And we're down right now, and I strongly believe that we will come back and we'll be stronger than ever.

>> Officer Pena, when did you start at the RPD?

>> I'm going on four years, so not as much as Sergeant Collins over here, but one day I'll make it there.

>> How do you.

>> Like it?

I'm loving it.

It's honestly one of the best careers that I could have chosen.

It's a great career path.

Having a bunch of fun.

as I said earlier today, I work overnight.

I'm here right now.

Like I enjoy this.

I'm having a great time.

and it's fun.

You meet phenomenal people.

>> So we're going to talk a little bit more about Officer Pena's decision to pursue this career, and maybe what led to that.

but let me also talk about some of the big picture stuff with policing with Sergeant Collins here.

So when you look at departments across the country, again, the bigger the city, the bigger the problem typically.

But it's not confined to Rochester.

It really is the last 5 to 7 years it's been been brewing here.

And I want to read a note from a retired officer, and I want to get your take on this.

This is from a retired officer named Gary who sent us a note this morning.

I've got too many notes here for you guys.

I'm sorry.

Gary said the following said police departments are having a hard time recruiting.

No one should be surprised.

When I joined hundreds, sometimes over a thousand candidates would show up for the initial testing.

No advertising was necessary.

People wanted the job.

I would have done it for half pay.

It was a vocation.

It was a calling.

Then two things happened.

George Floyd and Gen Z, the Black Lives Matter movement demonized police a, c, a b, a cab was a popular saying.

Every police officer was a racist by nature.

They said it didn't matter what color they were, they were the descendants of slave patrols, which is historical poppycock.

But that's another story.

People like council member Stanley Martin wanted to abolish the police.

Officers became pariahs.

Then there's Gen Z. You can't do police work from home in your jammies.

That's from Gary.

That's his assessment.

As a retired officer, do you agree with any of what you just heard there?

>> There's some elements to that are true.

I think it's a combination of things.

I think that obviously the George Floyd tragedy that happened had a huge impact on the profession across the country.

In fact, we're one of the only industries where something can happen in Minneapolis or something can happen in California.

And every single officer is lumped in.

And our industry took a huge hit.

Our organization took a huge hit.

But I think it's a it's a deeper issue.

I mean, we've got and you'll hear me say this a few times because I believe it.

One of the reasons why I'm still here is we have some of the most incredible professional human beings on this earth that in 2026, are willing to put their lives on the line for complete strangers when they don't have to.

They could work somewhere else and they choose to.

So I have a lot of respect for the men and women in our department right now, but I think it underscores another issue, and that is that for a long time, policing needed to evolve.

obviously, we're not policing the way we did in the 1950s.

Things have changed.

We've evolved some ways, but I think there needs to be more of an evolution.

And I think you're seeing it 21st century policing is a buzzword, but it's, it's a thing.

And, you know, the way we deal with things in the 90s or to 2000 have to change.

All industries have to change our reliance on technology versus, you know, less hands on.

All these things go into when all that happened.

and some of our responses, that's what kind of triggered across the country, the kind of the almost turning your back on law enforcement.

I'll be the first to tell you, not every police officer is a good person.

Not every police officer makes the right decision.

But by and large, the majority of police every day are dealing with.

I'll just say the city of Rochester, 2030 calls and they're doing incredible things with very limited resources and moments to make decisions.

So with that being said, yeah, I think there needed to be some evolution in how we handle certain things.

I think we're seeing a lot of that come from it.

A lot of good things came out of some of the tragedies that happened in 2020.

And that was policing, learning to respond differently to certain situations.

Some of it's controversial, but in the end, it all comes down to evolution of your industry.

And I think that's the part that I agree with most, is that some good did come out of it.

And changing how we respond to certain things.

>> As we talk about what's going on with policing this.

Our listeners, if you want to check out its join the rpd.com.

>> Join the RPD.

>> Yep.

Join the rpd.com is the website for the recruitment drive is currently underway and the latest RPD exam registration deadline is coming up in just less than a month, April 12th.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

Okay, so one of the things that I think we should probably also hit right from the start is the question on how you want to go about, well, diversifying and growing the force.

So I'm reading from some of Kayla Khan's reporting on the Democrat and Chronicle, the city of Rochester's first Nepalese officer.

Is that right?

For example, was encouraged to apply after police built a relationship with the head of the New Americans Advisory Council at Community meetings.

Is that correct?

First two, first two.

Okay.

and I think there were maybe some other either immigrant communities.

I mean, I know that the numbers are growing.

It's maybe not maybe where you want them yet, but let me just ask in general, Sergeant.

This is a city with 38% black citizens, right.

And the numbers from the DNC last year was 10% black on the Rochester force.

Is that still roughly correct?

That's about right.

Roughly correct.

Does it matter if your representation on the force isn't matching the citizenry in the city?

>> I don't think it has to be a direct match, exactly what it is.

But I think there's benefits in having people that are from where you're from that look like you that have maybe, perhaps lived where you lived and have shared that lived experience.

I think that's important.

Is it a requirement?

Do we have to have it?

No, we don't have to have it.

But it would be good.

And I think we work with such a vulnerable population in vulnerable situations that sometimes having that individual from Nepal or an individual who's African American or an individual who's white, when you're dealing, if you can do it or a woman, it can be helpful.

It could deescalate things.

Is it a requirement?

Is it not a requirement?

Do we need to have it?

No, we don't need to have it.

But would it really help?

It would help.

It would help because again, we're sometimes that familiarity really helps to calm situations down.

>> Officer Pena, do you agree with that?

>> I do agree with that.

like I said, it's it's tough.

You know, we're in a tough situation currently.

And we would love for more people from the community to take the exam.

And even when we're out there, we try to talk to some of them, some of it comes down to fear because I grew up in the city and they're afraid.

They're afraid of what may happen if they do become a police officer, or what happens when I have to arrest my friend because I grew up in the city and I know so many people and I tell them, hey, I grew up in the city as well.

>> City of Rochester.

>> Oh, yeah.

I grew up in the city of Rochester.

I went to school here in the city of Rochester.

when you cross that bridge, believe it or not, it might be awkward, but it's not as tough as you think it would be because they respect you.

They know where you come from.

You know where they come from, and they're like, hey, you know what?

If it's anyone, I'm happy that it's you arresting me.

>> Is there a sense that joining this kind of a department is, is selling out?

>> No, no, I don't think so.

You know, I don't I don't think that becoming a police officer, you're selling out.

You're actually doing something.

>> I'm not saying what you think.

I'm wondering if you think there's a sense in the community that that's the case.

>> yeah.

Yes.

You know because some people have told me that themselves, you know, to be honest with you, like, are you sold out?

And it's like, no, I'm helping the community.

I'm doing something.

We talk so much about wanting change, you know, and like I tell them, I challenge them.

How about you be that change you want to see?

You can't say you want change, but you're not willing to step into this yourself and, and advocate for yourself and go be change.

You know.

>> You are of Dominican descent.

You're a proud Rochester.

>> Yes.

>> I imagine you you speak multiple languages.

>> Yes, yes.

>> How much does that help you in certain situations?

>> Helps me a lot.

Helps me a lot.

A lot of people don't know I speak Spanish.

So when I start speaking Spanish with people, it calms the nerves down for everyone.

Like, oh, you understand me?

I'm like, oh yeah, I understand you clearly.

what?

Let's talk, you know.

>> So this is an example.

I think.

Sergeant Collins, I want to speak for both of you.

I'll let both of you respond to this.

I understand sometimes the criticism of diversity targets, if they are just sort of tokenized or if they don't have any meaning behind them, if it's just a check, a box, hit a certain target, you're done with it.

I also hear you saying if you had 100% white males who didn't speak any Spanish, who who really meant well, who wanted to serve this community the best they could.

Inevitably, this is a community with a pretty significant Latino population.

They're going to be dealing with people who sometimes don't speak English.

And if you didn't have anybody like Officer Pena, who you could call on, that probably makes for more friction, more frustration and communication.

>> Definitely, because there's challenges there, cultural challenges.

There's there's things that can happen that I mean, our goal at every call is honestly not to arrest people.

It's to calm situations down, to mediate and to move on.

And sometimes when you do have that individual who speaks Spanish or speaks, you know, another language, Ukrainian, whatever it is, right off the bat, it's like, oh, where are you from?

I'm from here.

Okay?

And that's like, you can calm them down.

Versus even though I don't speak Spanish, I may be able to empathize with that person, but having that person to go to and when I say person, multiple people to go to it's huge.

It's definitely, and it's, it's easy to see why that would be.

>> So what do you say to the critics?

The Dan Bongino who said this kind of diversity, targeting and policing is the wrong way to go?

It's woke nonsense.

Hire the best people, period.

>> I would say we hire the best people, but I would say that a lot of these communities Tom Bower is kind of where he was going.

Was that a lot of folks maybe look at this skeptically and they're like, I don't know if this is for me.

Is this really an opportunity?

Is this a box check?

A.M.

I going to be a token person?

And that's absolutely what our we're not trying to do.

and so I don't even go there with what that individual is saying, because that's just the way I've been my whole career is that I want this to be, you know, an opportunity for everyone.

If you're physically fit, if you have the intelligence, if you can complete the job, we want to let you know there's opportunities there.

I think for us, we're just going places and building alliances with groups out of necessity.

But be because I think ultimately it would it would make us a better police department.

So we're focused on going to those places.

And it's not just there.

We're going to all the traditional places, but to the two, the two folks that are from Nepal, I mean, they're not the first two people to ever apply for the department from Nepal.

They're the two first two people to get hired.

And there was a lot this process is still because it's state run is very complicated.

It's not just sign up and show up, do your interview and get hired.

So we were able to help get them through the process.

And they're doing the job on their own and they're doing phenomenal.

But it's just not just a box check.

It's providing real opportunities and leading people through it.

It's really where we're at.

And that's that's what I would say to that.

>> So in other words, if it were just about identity and you got candidates with certain identity backgrounds and you say, well, that's what we need, check if they're in as opposed to, hey, this would be great to increase our diversity.

They've got to pass every test and they've got to be at.

>> The top.

The metrics are still the metrics.

We're never going to change that.

Our standards are the standard just because we have a phenomenal candidate that's from wherever, Guatemala.

If they can't pass them, because what we also have to realize, and especially as a supervisor, which I am, you're responsible for Officer Pena.

I can't stick him with someone from Guatemala just because I love that person or wherever Russia.

>> Or you don't have someone from X. So now you're right.

>> And now he's in danger because this person's not qualified.

We have a great process in our department.

We go through it where everyone has to meet the same standards.

And if the person can pass the written, the physical standards, they can pass through the intense training, then we've got the right person.

If they just happen to be from a nation that's underrepresented in our department but is represented in our city, that's a win for everybody.

>> So, Officer Pena, for me, what I'm hearing is the kind of nuance that often is apparently not allowed in American conversations anymore.

It's either woke nonsense on one end or it is you know, the only thing that matters on the other side, as opposed to recognizing that diversity within a police force does matter.

It does have an impact.

It does have a benefit, but it also needs to come with merit based standards.

So for your process, what was it like for you to get hired at the RPD?

>> Yeah, for me it was I took a written exam.

I took an agility exam and then there was a background exam, psychological exam.

There was a bunch of different stuff.

I wasn't able to skip a stop.

they didn't baby me through something.

It was like, you have to get this done.

You know, whether it was getting paperwork in order, you know, a bunch of things from my background.

That way they know like, all right, this person is responsible person.

This person can get paperwork over to us in a timely manner, like they, they can show a positive pattern, I guess you can say.

so even while I was in the process, it was the same thing for each and every one of my counterparts who were with me.

>> When did you know in your life that you wanted to be a police officer?

>> Since not very cliche, but since I was a kid.

>> You did.

>> Huh?

Yeah.

I at first I wanted to go to the military was my thing, but I was like, no, I really want to be a police officer.

I just enjoyed it.

Just seeing police officers doing what they were doing.

I grew up watching cops.

All right.

So that alone there sold me you know, and not just that, it's.

I've always had a heart to.

I love serving people.

I love doing things for people.

I love helping out.

And when I got this, this job, my thing was this.

I just want to touch one person's life.

I want to be able to go out there, do my job.

And if I could touch one person's life, I'll be fulfilled.

I feel as if I fulfilled my, my job, my calling.

>> And now that you're in this position.

>> Yeah.

>> Having grown up in Rochester, you know this community well, you know the city well.

And as you acknowledged, there are some people maybe who you grew up with who are surprised that you would become a cop or view it as selling out.

How do you work in communities where you grew up to try to change that idea that becoming a police officer is not selling out?

>> I just try to be an example.

I show them like, look like this, look, look what I'm doing.

Look how I'm helping you guys out.

I'm not selling out.

I'm helping you.

You know I have discretion.

And whether I use or I don't use it, that's up to me.

It's up to every officer.

And believe it or not, more officers use discretion a whole lot.

and that's just what I try to emphasize and show them.

And I'm like, hey, like, or I tell them, you think I'm using discretion.

This officer over here who you thought was a racist is the one that's helping you out.

Who's getting you these resources, who is doing X, Y, and Z for you?

Who's going above and beyond for you?

You think it's me?

Because we grew up together, but this is a person.

This officer is the one that took the lead on this call.

I just came here to back them up.

And it just so happened that we knew each other.

But this officer is the one that's doing everything for you.

You know, and just when you explain that to people like, wow, like, I didn't think he was going above and beyond for me that way.

I thought that was all you.

I'm like, no, no, it's not me.

It was that officer.

I'm not going to take credit for something I didn't do.

And when you start to explain that to them, they're like, wow, I guess not all officers are bad.

And I tell them, you could do the same exact thing.

Because like I said, I grew up in the city.

I went to school in the city.

I know what the city entails, you know, so being able to just bring that to light to them and seeing their reaction is, it's good for me.

>> Even though you're still working overnight.

>> Yeah, I love overnight.

>> I mean, you're still young on the force, right, Sergeant?

Everybody's got to pull shifts.

>> You do.

You do it at one point, right?

Yeah.

>> You don't mind it.

>> No, I don't mind it.

It's good for my family life.

>> Youth is not wasted on the young T he.

>> We're talking about what the RPD is trying to do to grow their ranks here.

And if you want to learn more, they have a website.

Join the RPD.

Com a registration deadline for the latest RPD exam is coming up on April 12th, and we're talking to Sergeant Justin Collins and Officer Antonio Pena, who has been on the force for four years, 23 for Sergeant Collins.

And we're talking about not only the shortage in Rochester, but how this relates to issues across the country.

In a moment, I'm going to read from a story in The Atlantic about what we're seeing with crime across the country.

Before I do that, I think a fair question, having read my colleague Gino Fanelli reporting on this, is I'm looking at a full staffing number of roughly 728.

Does that sound about right, Sergeant?

Yep.

Okay.

you know, you're 100 plus officers down on that is the budget at 728 number.

Is it realistic at this point?

If it is so difficult to attain or sustain.

>> Meaning we're still able to survive without it.

Do you need it?

Well, I mean, obviously you got to look at response times.

If you're going to look at a problem like that, you're going to look at overtime.

All those things are going to.

So it's hard to just throw without having those numbers.

But I would say you're going to need more than you got.

You're going to at least need to get close to that number because there is obviously overtime being spent.

There are people working a lot of extra shifts just to kind of maintain that coverage.

so I think that that's part of it.

I don't think you can just say, well, they're surviving because there's always going to be it.

The quality of the service is the key.

The response time, you know, and until that you can master that answer.

I don't have a clear answer for.

>> You on the overtime issue.

When I look at the overtime numbers for RPD, the first thing that comes to mind to me is someone who doesn't work in the department is they need a lot more officers.

It's a lot of overtime.

Then when you understand retirement, your last three year salary is what your pension is going to be based on after you do your 20.

Is that right?

That's correct.

So I think it's fair to ask for taxpayers.

Is overtime being shifted to officers who are in that just about to retire phase so they can boost their salaries and have a bigger pension?

>> Right.

I've never seen it.

I understand the question, but what I think there's just so much overtime on patrol because they need the people to take the calls.

The calls really.

>> Do you think at least the vast majority of it is just a department that's understaffed?

>> Yeah.

I mean, there's people working, platoons working, you know, multiple people working.

The platoons are not even on because they can't get guys to cover.

So that are from the platoon because those guys have days off.

So yeah, I think a lot of it's just patrol guys working, going to calls for service because they're down.

I mean, those are things you really can't budge on.

You need people to answer the 911 calls.

So I think if it is your last three, you picked a really good time for it to be your last three because you're able to jump in there and work a lot of extra if that's what your focus is.

But yeah, I think it's, it's really majority of guys working these these extra things and it all has an effect, right?

Because one area is short, then other, other positions are short or unfilled, and it all trickles down to create overtime.

>> So let me read from I want both of you to respond to this.

my colleague Brian Sharp sent us a piece from the Atlantic recent piece titled The Great Crime decline is happening all across the country.

Henry Graeber wrote this piece in January, and I'm going to read an extended passage here to kind of paint the picture of what is happening with crime right now.

And then I want to talk about what it means for policing.

Graeber writes, quote, after a pandemic era rise in murders commonly attributed to a lack of policing, Seattle recorded fewer homicides in 2025 than they had in 2019, despite a much smaller police force in Seattle.

If less policing made crime go up following the George Floyd protests and most people thought it did, then what has made it go down?

What happened in Seattle is happening even more dramatically across the country as America experiences a once in a lifetime improvement in public safety despite a police staffing crisis.

In August, the FBI released its final data for 2024, which showed that America's violent crime rate fell to its lowest level since 1969. led by a nearly 15% decrease in homicides.

The steepest annual drop ever recorded.

That's 2024.

Preliminary 2025 numbers look even better.

The crime analyst Jeff Asher has concluded that the national murder rate through October 2025 fell by almost 20%, and all other major crimes declined as well.

The post-pandemic crime wave has receded and then some.

According to Asher's analysis.

Detroit, San Francisco, Chicago, Newark and a handful of other big cities recorded their lowest murder rates since the 1950s, and 60s.

Our cities are as safe as they've ever been in the history of the country, said Patrick Sharkey, a sociologist at Princeton who studies urban violence.

End quote.

And so one of the questions in Graeber's piece, looking at this remarkable data, is if policing is down, if departments can't fill the needs, but crime is down, what are we missing here?

And do we need the level of policing that we think we need?

>> I think it's a fair question.

I think there could be some variables involved in that.

When you're talking about homicide rates.

I mean, obviously those are pretty hard numbers.

So, you know, either someone was killed or they weren't.

Yeah.

but for some of the other crimes, I think that you can, you can look at whether they're being reported or they're being reported the same.

Does less cops mean less chances for people to get calls for service?

They know they're not going to be there for a while, so they don't bother and call.

So there's some other stuff to that.

that's not just a simple answer.

I think the question you're asking makes sense.

I think you also have to look on the long term effects.

If you're not turning outward, the long term effects of having a department that's short staffed is what kind of effects does it have on the human beings that are working there, because they're still dealing with the same trauma, they're still working all these hours.

I mean, an officer will go up and down throughout the shift dealing with whether it's violent individuals, difficult situations, and an overworked officer is not necessarily a healthy officer long term.

So but as far as homicide rates, I mean, the numbers are the numbers.

I think it's great.

I hope it's a trend that we see continue.

I do get the question, but it's hard for me just to come out and say whether we should have less when I know how hard everyone's working.

>> Well.

And in Rochester, RPD does a really good job with the public portal, letting people see what's going on with crime, for sure.

And we have had a fluctuation, although in general the last five years, crime is down locally.

>> That's what I think I've read.

Right.

Is that what you read?

>> Well, that's what I'm seeing here.

>> Yeah, I don't have that.

>> But again, so I take your point.

There are a lot of factors here.

And you got to see the full picture here.

Officer Pena, do you feel like the goals of RPD one 728 officers, other departments across the country feel like they need to grow.

Do you think it's still appropriate to say this was our goal ten years ago?

We still want to reach this goal of hiring.

>> Yeah, because in that piece you said that that that person believed that basically the urban urban cities are safer.

well, I speak to a lot of people in the urban city who disagree with that, that statement they tell me we need you guys.

We need more of you guys.

because they understand what's happening within the city.

and to, just to, to sergeants, point when you're working 16 hours, like, yeah, okay, crime might be down, but this is also, is what is making officers retire at 20 years and not staying 25.

>> Just feeling burned.

>> Out, just burned out because you can't, it's just not sustainable to be working 16 hours, 12 hours, 16, 12.

It's just not sustainable.

How can you have a healthy balance between work and your personal life?

You know, it becomes tough, you know.

>> Well, to Officer Pena's point on a 16 hour day or a long day, a lot of overtime.

When my colleague Gino Fanelli was talking about police overtime recently, one of the things I said was, I don't next time I fly on a plane, I don't want the pilot to be on his 20th hour.

I don't want him to be on his 15th hour.

The next time I need an officer to respond, I'd prefer it not to be an officer on their 13th hour.

It's a fair question.

Is that fair?

>> It's a fair.

It's a fair statement.

>> I'm not saying that I think an officer can't do a good job on the 13th hour.

I'm saying human beings get fatigued, especially in high stress jobs.

>> And that's why I think we we always have to look at the fact there's still a human element to this.

People think when they see this, they just think, well, those are robots.

And they're like the television cops and television cops never get tired, right?

They're jumping out of exploding cars and shooting guns and laughing with their buddies.

And that's just not like that, you know, that's not what the job is like.

I think TV and YouTube or whatever does does a kind of a silly job explaining what we do because most of what we do, 95% of what we do is empathize with people in crisis conflict management.

It's not there is violence.

We've seen it.

It's happened in our city, and it continues to happen.

It will never be done out of policing, but most of it is just trying to conflict management, working with people in crisis.

>> In an ideal world, if you got to 728 officers, if you were able to hire another roughly 100, do you think police overtime in the city would go down pretty dramatically?

>> Yes.

>> Do you think you can get to 728 in the next 1 to 5 years?

>> I think five years.

I mean, if I'm asking what my I'm being tasked with right now, which is to to rebuild our pipelines and the way we're doing it strategically, I think long term, yes, by five years, we can have this.

It's almost like your baseball fan.

>> Oh, absolutely.

>> It's like, I look, I love sports, so it's like rebuilding an organization.

We're tanking, right?

Or we tanked, whatever.

And now we're trying to figure out how do we rebuild this, but build it in a way where we build it smartly and where we can really build something that is reflective of what we're doing and what we're looking for.

And for a long time, and I know we'll probably get into it, but we didn't have a youth pipeline in the Rochester police.

We didn't need it.

We had as to that person who the retiree that wrote that he had a thousand cops when I came on, on the job, when I took my test in 2003, there were about 5500 people.

The guy's 5500.

The guy's just five years prior to that would tell me stories of 17, you know, maybe, you know, 10,000, 11,000 people.

So we just need a dramatic decline.

I agree, as a Gen Z is that.

>> Gen Z, Gen Z, that's the youngest generation of adults.

>> Can sit at home in their pajamas and eat and eat food and watch Netflix while they're working.

And we can't do that here.

so that is what we're up against.

I totally agree that is one of the major hurdles that we're facing.

but we're building our youth pipelines.

In the past, we were very reliant on our partnerships with local colleges and we still have great partnerships, but we've kind of now gotten to the business of developing.

So when I go back to the sports analogy, we're setting this up like professional sports team and the different tiers of minor league baseball.

That's what we now have with a lot of our youth.

We're not taking a chance of that.

17 and 18 year old getting a bad experience at an officer and then deciding they don't want to do this, or thinking that something happened in her life and they're completely disqualified.

We're ushering in these young people and bringing them along to adult processes that we have to get them through to ultimately grow our own, if you will.

And that's something we've never done before.

But again, we're doing it smartly and strategically.

>> There were 5500 people in your class.

>> There were 55.

>> Or 50 applicants.

>> That took the exam.

>> They took the exam?

Yes.

What how did you do on the.

>> I was one of 12 that was picked for the academy.

So that's the thing.

>> You must have showed out.

>> Oh, yeah.

And you know, again, I grew up in the city of Buffalo.

I was not from here.

I didn't know anyone here.

I took a leap coming here and.

Yeah, I mean.

>> I just wanted an office opinion to know who he's sitting next to.

Right?

Awesome.

>> It was maybe 100 guys when I took mine.

>> Yeah.

Right.

So yeah.

>> So so yeah, it was, it's, it's, it was not easy.

And our standards, our standards have not changed.

Like we'll hear a lot about like, well, you must be lowering the standards.

We're not, even though we know we have this shortage because you can pay now or you can pay later paying overtime.

But if you get the wrong person in here, who's going to do the wrong things and create situations that will divide the community and cause chaos, violate people's rights, any of those things, you've got to.

When Officer Pena mentioned this process, there's multiple psychological processes and it's very, very, very, very consistent.

It's lengthy and it's very involved.

And, you know, sometimes through some of our pipelines, my officers that are part of our program that help manage it will fall in love with the candidate and will, you know, get to know them.

And we really are rooting for them.

But something will happen that it's just it's going to be a it's not going to work.

It's tough to let that candidate go.

But you know, you got to do what's best for the officers working the streets and you got to do what's best for the community.

>> Before I get to our only break.

And then we'll take some listener feedback here.

Officer Pena, I don't know if are you Gen Z or millennial?

>> Are millennial?

>> Are you millennial millennial?

>> I mean, I argue millennial.

I mean, I was born in 97, so I guess it's like one Gen Z started, but I don't like to claim that Gen Z thing.

>> I think you're right on that.

I think I'm like on that cusp.

You know.

>> I think we need to fact check off.

I'm 29 years old, 29.

>> I'm going on 29.

>> Yeah.

>> Almost 29.

I think you might be Gen Z. Do you think the category, the characterization that Gary who wrote in, he feels like Gen Z as a culture, as a, as a group, which isn't used to physical jobs and wants jobs that are a little less taxing.

Is that fair or unfair?

>> I guess it's fair.

I don't I and it's tough.

It's tough.

yeah, it's, it's just the generation like society, everything is instant gratification.

Everything's right at your fingertips.

It's hard.

Right?

Okay.

Like it's, it's what it is.

And sometimes the job is not instant gratification.

The process is not instant gratification.

You're going to take a test.

You're gonna have to wait.

You have to wait for a call.

You have to wait for an email.

You have to wait for a letter in the mail.

None of it's instant gratification.

And in that timeline, during that process, if something else pops up for you that you really do like you say, you know what?

Maybe I don't want to be a cop.

I can do this right now.

I can start getting paid right now.

even with our, the way our pay structure is when you're in the academy, you're not making what you would be making as an officer on the road.

And it's, well, I can go do this job and I'll be making more, you know, than, than I'll be making the academy.

You try to look at the numbers in a way that doesn't make sense, not understanding that it makes sense down the line.

It might not make sense right now, but it will.

You know, I took a pay cut to become a police officer, and I'll make more money than I was making before becoming a.

>> Police officer.

You'll have an option at 20 to either stay or to retire.

>> To add that to to what he's saying.

A former chief who was a friend of mine spoke to one of our groups once, and he said something really profound that made a lot of sense.

And that was that the majority of our money that we earn gets paid after we retire with our medical benefits and with the pension.

So like, you make the most of your, your, your money comes back to you when you retire, which is where, you know, we get it on the back end.

We do get paid very well.

We're one of the highest paid police departments in the area, as we should be.

Our officers are some of the hardest working.

And this isn't my this isn't my opinion.

The numbers show that that we we go to more calls than anyone else in this area.

But the money really comes.

That second wave comes after you retire and a lot of.

To this Gen Z, they just they're not thinking about that at all.

>> Well, and I'll say last question for the sergeant before we get our break, and then we'll take some questions from listeners.

Last week we talked to public union leaders, teachers, firefighters, and then just general public union leadership.

And one of the things they talked about was the challenge in recruiting young people and how important it is to know that you've got a good pension, that you've got something set up for you.

Because to Officer Pena's point, Gen Z is looking around going, you know, I could be a firefighter, but that's hard and I'm not going to get paid as much as if I go do X. So what these union leaders are telling us is we need something to say to them.

This sweetens the deal for you.

You serve the public.

The public needs you, and you get taken care of.

Now, the argument that some are making is, well, it's too much or it's out of balance or but how important is it, Sergeant, to be able to tell your recruits, hey, whatever you think you can make elsewhere, you put in 20 years here, plus you're in a really good situation and you're serving the public.

How how big is that incentive?

>> I totally agree with what those union union leaders were saying.

And yes, it is.

And one of the things I think you not only just need to say it once, as the son of a 15 year old or as a father of a 15 year old, I need to say it multiple times.

And not that these are children, but they're younger folks.

You need to say it multiple times.

And that's one of the things that that we have built within our department that's unique to our department is we have a workforce development program that has 19 to 42 year old folks in it that are all at different stages of the hiring process.

But we're able to reiterate things like what you just said over and over and over again and answer questions.

You know, there's a lot of fake news out there, right?

A lot of things that they may hear from someone that's not exactly correct.

And by having an opportunity to touch our pool of candidates over and over and over again, to have my officers in there engaging with them, you can start to sweeten that deal consistently.

So what about this?

Well, what about that?

Like, there's still many people out there for whatever reason, think that once they hired, they don't get paid to train in the academy, which is not true.

It's never been true, but it's just important we have that opportunity.

So yes, to that point, we have we spent a lot of time with our folks, ushering them through this process to make sure that anything that they might be thinking about, we're able to explain what is true and what is not true.

>> When we come back from this break, we'll take some of your feedback.

My guests come from the Rochester Police Department, and they are in the middle of a recruiting drive.

The drive underway has the deadline of April 12th to register for the latest RPD exam.

You can learn a lot more if you want more information at Joynt.

The RPD.

Com they would love to fill 728 positions and they're down.

According to the mayor's office, carding the RPD roughly 100 100 plus officers.

Sergeant Justin Collins is here.

Officer Otto Pena is here.

And we'll come back with your feedback on Connections.

Coming up in our second hour, the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra is revealing its new season.

Connections, has the first look from iconic masterworks and a new piano festival to Broadway hits and a tribute to a Rochester legend.

RPO music director Andreas Delfs and principal pops conductor Jeff Tyzik are going to take us through what we can expect from the RPO that's coming up.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Bob Johnson Auto Group.

Believing an informed public makes for a stronger community.

Proud supporter of Connections with Evan Dawson focused on the news, issues and trends that shape the lives of listeners in the Rochester and Finger Lakes regions.

Bobjohnsonautogroup.com and Excellus.

BlueCross BlueShield, providing members with options for in-person and virtual care, creating ways to connect to care when and where it's needed.

Learn more at Excel Usb-c Ebsco.com.

>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

All right, Chris writes to the program and says, Evan, I respect police.

I don't respect what I've seen from Ice.

Your guests mentioned what has been happening in Minneapolis.

I think they were referring to George Floyd, but officers are going to be impacted by the perceptions of Ice, even though Ice are not police officers.

That is from Chris.

Yep.

Okay.

So Sergeant, do you agree with that 100%.

>> People cannot distinguish the job that Ice has to do versus the job that we do.

And not the same not the same job.

And like I said, people, most people cannot.

And you know, you're in uniform, you're law enforcement.

You must be doing the same job.

We have a very different job.

and a big part of what the city police department does is again, responding to people in crisis, protecting people public safety in our, in our city.

so obviously ice has a different job.

but to that point, that's one of the reasons why we launched our many routes, one city campaign in which Officer Pena is driving for us and that is to, you know, we had some success a few years back.

You mentioned the two officers from Nepal.

We had a few officers from Yemen and different places that were really first ever in our department.

We're proud of that.

But some of the recent tension surrounding because of ice and different things that are going on or wherever people stand with things, you'd be lying, and no officer would tell you that there's there's less trust.

People are not sure.

And, you know, we want to reaffirm that what our jobs are here.

and we have such a diverse community, so many routes.

One city's goal is to start to first start with the leaders of these different groups, whether it's Catholic Family Services or Enlace or any of these groups that are helping refugees and immigrants, you know, get basic services, but also get employment.

We want to start those inroads.

And this is one I talked about strategically building this organization, staffing.

It's the number one thing that needs to happen right now.

And we're we're working smartly to try to, okay, let's build these relationships.

Let's be consistent because anyone could start a campaign and check a box and never see the person again.

But if we routes in.

Officer Pena's got quite a career ahead of him, right?

He's got a long time to be here.

Him being in this position and being rooted is going to help us.

And I mentioned those officers that were our first ever, right.

They're all part of his team now and they're all out there.

We brought them in, they're doing well, and now they're coming out and they're going to help.

And they're going to go to these events.

When we build that trust, which we've started to where it's like, hey, we talked to you last month, we'd still like to go.

And one of the components that we found that was a little bit of a roadblock is some of these new Americans and refugees who are relatively new here and don't yet have citizenship, and that is a part of what you need to be a Rochester police officer.

Like there was a young woman who worked for me previously who was here legally, but she was a from Mexico, but she was not a citizen and it held her back.

And finally she was able to accomplish that.

And she was hired last summer.

But our goal is if we can go after some of the youth, young people who are still trying to become citizens and put them in some of our youth pipelines, we can start to build and grow our own internally through our community and our department, to ultimately have them become police officers.

So that is really one of our focus is growing through the youth, getting relationships built young and will accomplish so much for us.

And I totally expect that we'll continue to have success.

But even if we didn't have one successful, imagine the relationships that would get built from making those efforts.

>> Officer Pena, how are the new officers doing?

>> Doing great.

Phenomenal.

good friends with all of them.

and they helped me out as well.

I don't speak Arabic, not like that.

So I bring them along whenever I need them.

You know, there's a bunch of different languages I don't speak and they're there to help me.

And it's familiar face and they could connect with the community as well.

And it's great.

They're doing phenomenal.

And they're helping me tremendously.

>> And I take Chris's point and I take your point, Sergeant, that if you just looked at what's happened in Minneapolis with Ice and you think that's police, that that could impact how people view the police, and I take the point that they're separate.

One thing we have seen, which is unusual in in my covering of ice and immigration, because Ice has been around for 25 years now, one thing that's unusual is a number of police chiefs have come out.

I'm talking about in Minneapolis, in in Minnesota, in greater departments, some from other states, and basically said, you know, that's not how we do things.

So when you look at the two Americans who were shot, Renee Good Alex Pretti, there's a lot of talk about how dangerous it can be in the spur of the moment.

If you perceive a threat, if a car is moving, things like that.

But I'm curious to know, Sergeant, with those two shootings, did you see justified shootings in those cases?

>> I didn't.

I'll be real with you.

I didn't look at them very closely.

I watched the videos.

for me, I just I'm really sensitive about how our organization's perceived.

So I can't speak to those.

But what I will say is anytime that there's negative light shined on any type of law enforcement, same thing when you have what happened with George Floyd.

We all took the hit, even though we weren't part of George Floyd.

But again, there's some roots of truth there where how we're perceived, how we present ourselves often needs to evolve.

So what I'll say to that is that it's important that we distinguish Ice has a job that they're doing, and we have a job that we're doing.

And it's a different job.

And even though we're law enforcement, our job is much different.

And we need law enforcement.

Public safety does not exist if we don't have the community.

They are our customers.

They are our board of directors.

Whatever.

There are people who ultimately we're there to serve.

And if we don't have their buy in, no crime gets solved, nothing gets done.

So we have to have that relationship.

And that starts with relationships.

So we have to make sure that they know that we're there for them and that we're not going to surprise your you're getting deported.

That's not our job.

>> Yeah.

No, I get you there.

But don't you think you could get more buy in if you said to the community, look, when we see American citizens shot and killed, there should be an extremely high standard for that occasion to occur.

And we can look at these incidents and with clarity, say that those were or were not justified.

>> We're we're definitely we are we.

I would not be want to be irresponsible to speak.

I don't know where those cases stand.

I didn't watch every frame by frame.

I will say that there are times when shootings are not not lawful and they shouldn't happen.

Like I mentioned, there are cops that shouldn't be cops, but.

>> You don't want to weigh in on this.

>> I don't want to weigh in on that.

>> Okay.

Officer Pena, do you want to weigh in on these?

>> Listen, everyone, everyone has different policies.

We have our policies.

They have their policies.

However ice runs things.

They run things.

I can only speak to how RPD runs.

>> Is it unfair, guys?

Is it unfair of me to ask?

Would you have done it that way?

>> I wasn't there.

>> Yeah, it's hard.

>> For me.

It's hard to say whether I was or what, you know, I wasn't.

I've been in tough situations before, but I think everyone would.

I can be the first.

If you showed me something that was clearly an unjustified shooting, I'd have no problem telling you whether it was or wasn't.

But would not being there, not being part of it.

There are things that I see online sometimes that I cringe when I see officers doing certain things, but we only can focus on what we do and how we operate.

>> Okay now one thing that we have seen from, to Chris's point, we've seen from Ice as well, is telling people on the street, you can't be shooting video of what we're doing.

And if you're in a public place, people can shoot video, right?

>> 100%.

>> The public has the right to shoot video.

>> And our department's been there, done that.

We know that that's the case and that's going to happen.

So everyone here in RPD is used to being filmed.

We're body cameras 24 hours a day.

>> Part of the job.

>> Part of the job.

>> Whether you like it or not.

Yeah.

And citizens can do it 100%.

Okay.

let me get back to some other feedback here.

some are just asking in general about response times.

And Linda at Linda sends a long email about her concern that she says she sees a Rochester car sitting on the side of the road for hours, several times per week.

She doesn't know what the officer's doing.

She's wondering if he's scrolling through his cell phone.

And she said, you know what is the average response time to calls where a police officer actually shows up?

how many are never responded to in this manner?

how many times does a police officer not show up when an officer is needed, for example?

So those are just some basic questions.

>> So those are questions.

So the.

>> First and by the way, you can't respond.

Linda, I appreciate your concern.

Nobody in this room knows exactly what that officer is assigned to or what he's working on.

I'm not trying to run cover for RPD.

If you're frustrated with it, maybe you can ask RPD on a separate occasion.

>> Totally.

>> But I don't think Sergeant Collins knows.

Exactly.

>> I don't know what that specific person is doing.

But I also want to reiterate again, there are some times officers aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing, right?

Maybe they are scrolling on their phone and that's the supervisor's job to fix it.

But it's no different than any other human being at another job, right?

so, you know, they're still human beings, but very often when officers are on the side of the road, they may be doing special attention.

They may have been asked to be there because they're having whether it's a robbery pattern, stolen cars, maybe it's a school dismissal.

The school doesn't want them right on top of the school.

They want them to be down the street a little bit.

So there's a million different variables of why they're there.

Maybe they're taking their lunch break and they pull over to the side of the road.

Maybe that's where they write their reports, or maybe they're doing, maybe they're scrolling on their phone and they should keep moving and doing more work.

But that would ultimately be if someone has something they see they don't like, if they call.

There is many measures in which they can contact.

They can, they can get involved and supervisors, first job or first line supervisor's job.

Get out there and make sure their officers are doing the right thing so it'll be addressed.

If you see something you don't like, contact RPD and they'll look into it.

>> How are your response times?

>> I think that we're still we're still, I think things are getting better.

Do some restructuring in the department, but I don't think they're where we want them to be.

And that comes again with staffing.

>> Okay.

So again, if you get where you want to be with staffing, that's another immediate change.

You think response times come down.

>> Yep.

I think they do.

And I think also too, there's other services that we want to be able to provide because the police department doesn't just do going to calls for service.

You know, there's a lot of other things that we do that were, you know, not able to do to our fullest capacity because we don't we don't have the men and women to do it.

>> Officer Pena, down to our last couple of minutes here.

Yeah.

For people who actually are thinking about this, describe a typical day for yourself.

What's an RPD day like for.

>> You?

>> Going to roll call?

You know, it's like take attendance, basically let you know what has happened within your section.

get your keys, you load up.

And usually when you load up and you jump in your car, there's already jobs waiting for you.

like I said, we're just so short staffed.

And if the platoon before you was super busy, they weren't able to get to all these.

>> So what kind of job?

>> whether they be we deal with a lot of mental mental health issues.

That's like our, our biggest thing.

And even that, you know we struggle because we could be trying to get someone help and get them to the hospital, but we're not the only ones that are suffering.

So it's Amr they're struggling.

So now we're waiting for an ambulance for 40 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour to get this person to the hospital who was just expressing suicidal ideations or whatever it is.

But now we're also held back because Amr is backed up.

>> Do you have the Picc team or others with you who can help?

Yeah, in most of those.

>> Cases, yeah.

>> But we also have to be there with the big team with some of these individuals because there's also been times where members of the team have gotten hurt because this, like I said, this person is in a crisis and they could be up right now, then they could be down and vice versa.

So you don't understand what they're going to do or how they're going to react.

So you we also have to think about the safety of the big team and not allow them to walk into something where they can ultimately get hurt.

>> So you start your shift, you're almost right out to calls.

How many calls in a regular shift?

How long is a regular shift for you?

>> eight hours, a regular shift.

>> Okay.

And how many calls.

>> I would go to 17, 18 calls, 20 calls.

and think about that.

That's an eight hours.

so I mean, you try to take your time on every call, but it's also hard when you have that pressure understanding that, well, this other person's been waiting for an hour.

Yeah.

You know, and I got to get there too.

So, you know, that's also the pressure that mounts on you.

And it's, well, I also have to do this paperwork.

I have to do X, Y, and Z.

>> But you're four hours in four years in.

>> Yeah.

>> Any regrets?

>> No.

>> I love it.

I have a great time.

I've met a lot of phenomenal people.

and just connecting with the community is great.

Serving.

So I love it.

>> I want to thank both of you for being here and again, join the RPD.

Com 20s.

Anything else you want the community to hear?

>> You know, great opportunity.

We hope people get involved.

I guess Officer Point, the best way to do it, if you want to make change, is to serve from the inside and to make that change from the inside.

>> The website.

If you're interested in learning more, is join the RPD.

Com, you got a deadline coming up on April 12th, and I know they'd love to hear some more.

Whether it's Sergeant Collins, whether it's Lieutenant Bello or so many others.

This is a department that's been very responsive and we appreciate that.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you for having us.

>> Thank you.

Sergeant officer, good meeting you.

Good luck to you.

More Connections coming up here.

>> This program is a production of WXXI Public Radio.

The views expressed do not necessarily represent those of this station.

Its staff, management or underwriters.

The broadcast is meant for the private use of our audience.

Any rebroadcast or use in another medium without expressed written consent of WXXI is strictly prohibited.

Connections with Evan Dawson is available as a podcast.

Just click on the Connections link at wxxinews.org.