>> From WXXI News.

This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in July when something was clearly going wrong with the paychecks going to Rochester City School District employees, teachers, employees across the district.

Some were getting the wrong amount of pay and were not talking about overpay.

Some checks have been $20 for two weeks.

It seemed like a temporary blip.

Surely this would get swiftly corrected.

Well, earlier this month, the Rochester school superintendent joined me on Connections and some teachers had privately expressed to me that they were upset that their voices were not included.

So I want to be clear.

When the superintendent came on this show a number of weeks ago, it was his first chance to join us.

Since his hiring, we only briefly talked about the Oracle, the payroll issues.

He was clearly frustrated by it, as anyone would be, but my guess at the time was that this would all be settled by the end of October.

That was wrong.

So now some teachers are saying they can't pay their rent because they're still waiting to get paid.

Some teachers have talked about selling plasma to earn enough money to get by, and the teachers message to the Rochester School Board and the district this week was fix this.

Now, this hour, we're talking about what has been, frankly, one of the strangest stories to see spiral like this, but it has not really been fixed.

And we're talking about where things stand with those who've been dealing with these problems, like the president of the Rochester Teachers Association Adam Urbanski.

Welcome back.

Thank you for being here.

>> Thank you.

Glad to be here.

>> With Adam.

Is Ange Palmerini who's president of BENTE Local 2419.

Thank you for being with us.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> And Doriy Jackson is vice president of Rochester Association of Paraprofessionals.

>> Hi, everyone.

>> Thank you for being here.

So I want to start just by asking Adam one very specific question, and then I want your characterization of what you think is going on.

But in brief, how many people are getting affected by the Oracle issue on an ongoing basis?

Do you know how many?

>> Well, I can tell you that it's more than hundreds.

It's thousands.

>> Thousands.

>> For example, just this Wednesday, two days ago, teachers had a chance to take a peek and other employees had a chance to take a peek at what is slated to be given to them in today's payroll.

And about 2000 had deductions for health care that were twice as much, or sometimes three times as much as should have been deducted.

The district.

When we notified them, worked yesterday and the day before to fix that, and they I assumed they fixed some, but I know for a fact they didn't fix all.

We're still we still received calls all morning today that their deductions.

And by the way, not only that they from people who continue to get the same excessive deductions, but people who have never had that problem since July, now we're being are were being paid with deductions for health care 2 or 3 times as much as it should.

>> So it's not always the same people.

Every payroll period.

>> It is not.

And as a matter of fact, this is one of those situations that when they do actually fix a problem, another problem pops up.

And it's not just for teachers, it's for paraprofessionals, it's for non-teaching employees.

And it's for some administrators as well.

>> So I want to say again here, I did not expect that we were going to have this conversation.

I thought, I've never heard of a payroll issue that wasn't going to get solved.

I don't think people don't want to solve it.

Before I turn to your colleagues here, Adam, you know, I talked to the superintendent and in a moment I'll read some of his remarks from the meeting last night.

But when I talked to him weeks ago, I its my first time meeting him.

That's the last thing he wanted to come into office and deal with, right.

There's no way he wants this to be an ongoing problem.

There's no way the board wants this to be a problem.

I think everybody wants to fix this, don't they?

>> Yeah, I agree 100% that he wants to fix it.

And he claims he's doing all he can, but I'll add a footnote to it.

There is indeed a lack of decisive leadership at the head of the of the city school district.

And I don't mean just him.

I mean especially the majority in the board.

There are four of them.

There are two factions on the board.

The majority headed by the current president and vice president.

I think a lack the kind of decisive leadership that would put an end to this fiasco.

There's absolutely no excuse for why this has lasted for as long as it has.

>> Andrew, how do you describe it when people who, you know, you're having a beer with somebody and they don't really know what you do and you're trying to describe this problem, what's the short description of what in the world has been going on?

>> so as far as the system, right, because it's the Oracle system that's causing these issues I believe that it's having an A.I., so somebody will make a change that needs to be made in somebody's record in the system, will go back and say, oh, if you made that change, we need to change this here.

That's why these new issues are cropping up every paycheck.

It's something different to different people.

>> To me, it sounds like it's a system that just doesn't work.

And I don't think Rochester is the only place that has problems with Oracle.

>> No, no, there's I heard Baltimore, Syracuse.

Gaston, North Carolina has been having these issues for years.

>> This makes us feel better.

But I would think that this makes it easy.

Just get rid of the system right.

>> Well, there there is so deep in the system, they now have invested tens of millions of dollars.

Some people claim it's the dish.

Got about 45 million.

I think it's over 60 million.

Yesterday there was a resolution adding more money to Oracle.

So it's hard for people who made that decision to admit that this was a bad decision.

And they were warned in June, before July, they were warned by one of the companies that Oracle and the district hired for implementation that they're not ready for prime time and they should not go live.

They ignored that and they decided to go live.

It was a bad mistake, a very costly mistake.

But it's getting worse and worse unless they find an alternative, because if they couldn't fix it after five payrolls and in four months, they're not going to fix it.

>> is it true that you've got members who are struggling to pay their bills because of this?

>> Yes, we do, but most of the employees of the district who are struggling are the paraprofessionals and the non-teaching employees who are hourly workers.

They're the ones who have gofund me.

They're the ones who have a food drive.

They're the ones who are selling their plasma for additional money.

>> And before I get to Doriy, can you relate to some of those stories?

>> Yes.

So we had one person that didn't get paid.

So the the process is to open up an Oracle ticket and you're put on for an off cycle check.

So he went downtown.

They said, okay, we'll call you when your off cycle check is ready.

And he says, well, you can't because my phone was shut off because I didn't have money to pay my bill.

We also had people that went down and they didn't have money for the bus to get home.

people that their health care insurance are going to pick up prescriptions that Wegmans or wherever their pharmacy is, and they're coming back and saying, sorry, your insurance has been canceled.

>> Doriy, what are you hearing?

>> Well, I can tell you this this morning, I got a phone call from one of our members.

She did not get paid today.

Okay, then I got a we had a meeting this morning with another member.

She had to borrow money just to get to the meeting.

this is going on, and this is just different people.

It's different people every day.

Most of our time is spent with trying to reassure our members that we are doing all that we can.

Okay?

And we're staying on top of it.

I call them to see how they're doing, and it hurts to hear that they're struggling, their hardships, that they're going through.

I can't even help them with it.

And that is the most helpless feeling ever.

>> Mm.

Well, let me read what Dr.

Rosser, the superintendent of Rochester City Schools, said last night at the board meeting.

He said that he and his colleagues have been, quote, working with a number of potential vendors to serve as our payroll provider.

The process is a very comprehensive and tenuous process in that there's a lot of information that needs to be shared.

There's a lot of information that they need to understand about our unique Rochester City School District payroll system.

And quite frankly, as they're evaluating us, we're also evaluating them because we want to make sure that if we go with a new system, that we're not repeating what we have, we are what we are currently experiencing as it relates to our ability to make sure that all of our employees are paid correctly, paid on time, that's extremely important to us.

So right now we're in the discovery phases with a few different vendors where they're asking questions.

We're asking questions, they're reviewing our data, we're asking other school districts how they are performing with a particular platform so that when we make that decision, we're making a well-informed decision because we cannot.

And I repeat, we cannot experience what we're experiencing with Oracle, nor can we repeat what existed prior to Oracle with PeopleSoft.

End quote.

That's from the superintendent last night.

What do you think Doriy.

>> Words are great, but if I don't see it happening, we don't see a light at the end of the tunnel because this is right now.

We've been working on this for some time now.

This is not the first time that we actually talked to him about changing the Oracle.

We shared.

We had a meeting with them with the superintendent of schools, Dr.

Rosser, and some of our members sharing with the struggles that they are going through.

I mean, this is their everyday life style.

This is their necessities, not just wants.

It's what they need to survive.

And all these words, their words we need to do have something done now because they are really hurting.

>> Ange what do you think about the superintendent said?

>> So I would think that this process should have happened four years ago.

As far as.

>> Four years ago.

>> Yeah, because this is when they decided to go with Oracle.

They should have vetted how Oracle would perform back then, not let's purchase the system and figure it out after.

>> Okay.

You don't think that they did any vetting?

>> I don't know from what I understand is they they were picked off.

you can choose somebody that's on a state contract and go with that vendor, okay?

You don't have to do an RFP.

>> But regardless, when the superintendent says, look, we can't just change to something that's going to create the same problems we currently have.

We've got to be sure.

We've got to do our due diligence.

We're working on that.

What do you think?

>> Again, that should have been done four years ago.

>> Okay.

But he can't go back in time.

The superintendent.

>> No he can't.

No he can't.

The people that were there should have done that back then and again the process of implementing a new system is going to take time.

Yeah.

To make sure it works.

And testing and everything else.

And that was was supposedly done over the four years.

All this testing was supposedly done then.

>> Well, there's no question that making a transition from one payroll system to another involves time and learning and pangs of adjustment.

But I'll tell you what our members would say in response to that.

They would say, you, you can't just do it quickly.

We agree that you can do it quickly, but we cannot accept the current situation as the new normal because there is not a single person employed by the Rochester City School District who can be certain that the next paycheck will be on time and correct.

Not a single one.

That means that you can't plan whether or not you can afford a new house.

You can't plan whether or not to have a baby, or you can't plan anything financially.

If you're uncertain.

Used to be that everyone would look forward to payday.

Now, pay weeks are dreaded people.

The anxiety and stress that this is causing ultimately hurts our students.

Because people cannot focus on all of this.

>> Before I grab Mike's phone call here, Mike, hang there for one more second.

So what is not happening?

You're all acknowledging that the switch to a new system is not going to happen tomorrow, right?

So what's not happening that has to happen?

>> Well, look, this first of all, they were, as I mentioned earlier, they were advised that they're not ready for prime time.

They didn't listen to that advice.

And they went live anyway.

Secondly, they keep saying next payroll will be will fix everything.

They've said that for five payrolls.

There are people who work this summer who didn't get a penny for their work in a summer.

I'm talking about about 182 to be exact.

Teachers, just teachers.

Never mind the other employees.

Those are additional ones.

So I think that they first have to make a decisive call that this this dog won't hunt.

And so there is a lot of talk about looking for alternatives, but there is no action.

And that's frustrating to all the employees.

>> All right.

Let me grab that phone call from Mike in Pittsford I think hey Mike, go ahead.

>> Hi, Evan.

you know, we have a saying in our faith tradition, faith without works is dead, right?

I'm a project manager.

When we talk about the bureaucratic process of an Oracle integration, you ignore the grinding cruelty of people not receiving their pay.

Someone should be out there with cash solving the problem regardless of the due diligence needed for the integration.

I don't understand why RCSD why these teachers haven't striked yet, because the reality is the help that people need does not have to be bound up in a bureaucratic nightmare.

The talk about delay and due diligence is so incredibly disrespectful to the people who are going and teaching our students every day.

>> Mike, thanks for the phone call.

ready to strike Adam Urbanski is that possible?

>> I'll tell you to answer the question directly.

One.

Teachers aren't teaching, not because of the because they want to become very wealthy.

They're teaching because they want to do something worth doing with children.

And so children, their students is the main reason why they're not on strike.

You know, the second reason is public employees like teachers and others cannot strike.

And if they do, they get penalized two days pay for every day on strike.

Their union could be decertified.

There are laws against that, but it is this situation that we're enduring right now is not sustainable.

And I do hear a lot of teachers saying, maybe I shouldn't come in, maybe I shouldn't show up.

This is making me sick.

Maybe I should call in sick.

We hope that the district will show the light at the end of this tunnel before people start acting on these legitimate and understandable feelings.

>> Ange a strike possible?

>> No, unfortunately not.

But again, just like Adam mentioned that some of our people, if there's overtime, they're like, if I'm not going to get paid for it or guaranteed I'm going to get paid for it, we're just not going to do it.

we have security people that work, football games, different type of sporting events, and they're like, well, if they're not going to pay me, we're not going to do it either, okay?

>> Doriy strike.

>> No, we can't strike.

we made an agreement that we will continue to work out any kind of issues that may be happening between our unions and, and the district.

However, our our people, even though they're not getting paid, they're still showing up every day.

Every day they show up.

And earlier to your question about the Oracle and the superintendent, they need to involve U.S.

unions to make sure that when they are doing this, this software, that it meets the job responsibilities that we do.

We have a lot of variables.

From my understanding with Oracle, is that it was only based on a ten month kind of work year.

We are maybe ten months on a regular, but we do work over the summer.

As soon as they put that into the summer, trying to make it up, glitches were happening.

If they would have had a conversation with us earlier about what does your union consist of?

What are the things that we have to be mindful of?

We have lots of different variables and lots of different positions that require different payment for their services that they provide.

But even though all this is was never taken into consideration, we are paying the after effects of it, but we still show up every day despite it.

>> But let me tell you what is happening.

Since July 1st.

82 teachers from the Rochester City School District decided to resign.

82 at a time when we have a shortage of teachers.

>> Over this.

>> Over this, mostly over this.

>> You can confirm that the majority of those resignations are because of this.

>> Yes, because we speak to them when they resign, they're not compelled to tell us, but they they don't hide the fact.

I mean, some people resign for other reasons, but the overwhelming majority of those 82, this was the last straw for them.

>> And where are they now?

>> In suburban districts where there are huge openings and incentives to go there.

>> So on that note, Adam listener emailed in to ask if other districts in the area use the same system that RCSD uses.

>> No, the only ones in New York State that we're aware of are Syracuse and Yonkers.

And Syracuse and Yonkers are having very similar problems.

But you know what their mantra is in Syracuse and in Yonkers, they're saying this is terrible, but at least we're not Rochester.

That's what they're saying.

Our problems are greater than those in Syracuse and in Yonkers.

>> Jeff wanted to know what a paraprofessional does.

So let's make sure that our guests in the studio represent sort of different groups here.

Doriy what's a paraprofessional?

>> Okay, we have two, two sets.

We have paraprofessionals, and we have teaching assistants.

Paraprofessionals are mainly support, you know, they're the ones that if a child is upset or something's wrong with a, you know, if the child is unhappy about something, they would take the time out to have a conversation with them so education can continue.

Try to get to the root of it, all right?

And then help them catch up with whatever it is that they're missing because they're in a certain state.

All right.

Teaching assistants, we're more academics.

All right.

So when the teachers are out there and because we're having a shortage of teachers, our Tas are now having to step in and to teach.

But technically, we're not supposed to we're supposed to be a team, but they take it on the full world of an actual teacher, but without the pay.

>> So Doriy for years, my mother never had a teaching degree, but she's a she always called herself a behavior specialist in elementary schools, working with children who may have a range of issues.

She's in the classroom every day.

so maybe she'd be in your union.

I think if if she were in this state.

She's not in this state.

>> Well, I'll tell you something.

We wear many, many hats.

Yeah.

All right.

we're like the heart of the educational process because we're the ones that make the connection with the kids.

We are the ones that that take care of their needs.

So the education, I mean, there isn't enough of us to go around.

We are getting burnt out.

We are.

And we're getting stretched.

The other day, I found out that a paraprofessional was a teacher for the day because there was a shortage.

Okay, now paraprofessionals do not go to the same training as PTAs and teachers do.

So that's a disservice to our students.

They're doing the best that they can.

Luckily, that you know what?

Audrey doesn't say how well you can do your job being in a classroom every day.

Yes, they do pick up things.

They pay attention to what's going on and what have you.

But they shouldn't have to be doing that.

That's not their role.

>> All right.

Ange, you represent who.

>> The non-teaching staff.

So we are the custodial, the clerical, the bus drivers, the maintenance people, food service.

So anyone that's not in a classroom opts.

>> All right.

so I hope that answers Jeff's question.

I think we've got Robert in Fairport next there.

Hey, Robert.

Go ahead.

>> Yeah.

one of your guests made a comment that I thought was, this can't be true, but let me just ask.

There was a comment made that Oracle coming in because they were out of state, did not require the production of an RFP, which is a request for proposal.

That particular document would a detailed everything involved expectations, timetables and so on.

And maybe I heard the person wrong, but this would explain a lot if they came in without any documentation for this sort of stuff.

>> Ange.

>> Go ahead.

Yeah.

So there in New York State, if you sell a product, you can get on the state contract to provide those things to school districts, government.

And so if you're if the school, in our case, the school district's looking for a product, you can go to the state list and see who provides that.

And you can pick them out without going to RFP.

>> Okay, Adam go ahead.

>> I was just going to add I really don't know very much about how how this contracts get settled, but when we met with the representatives of the New York State Comptroller's office, those individuals told us that the only kind of investigation that they could do and are considering doing is an investigation of the procurement process.

In other words, how did Oracle end up getting hired?

Who was at the table?

What were the options?

Were there any other bidders and all of that?

So hopefully the New York State Comptroller's Office will help to answer that question.

>> let me give you the phone number, listeners, if you want to call in and we've got questions, comments, if you want to share your stories, I want to hear from you.

When we come back from our break, I've got a pile of your emails and there's a lot of good questions that are still outstanding as we talk about what's going on in the RCSD with this of a payroll issue that's been going on for months now, the number to call is 844295 talk.

It's toll free 8442958255263 WXXI.

If you're in Rochester 2639994, you can email us at wxxi.org.

If you're watching on YouTube.

Thank you for doing that.

And you can join the chat there.

We've got Adam Urbanski representing the teachers, Ange Palmerini representing the non-teaching staff in RCSD Doriy Jackson the paraprofessionals and the teaching assistants.

And it's it's been hard times for people who are literally not getting paid or getting much smaller paychecks than they are due.

And so we're talking about what comes next here.

So let's take a break and we'll get to your emails and questions on the other side.

I'm Evan Dawson Monday on the next Connections.

In our first hour, the city issue for November focuses on food and Bev and what a great food and bev scene we have here.

It's always one of our most enjoyable conversations with the city team.

And then in our second hour conversation about independent films, their future in this country and the upcoming anomaly Film Fest.

Get you ready for that.

On Monday.

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>> This is Connections.

I'm Evan Dawson so Jillian writes in with a question that a couple of others have asked.

So a couple of others are asking like, what are you waiting for?

Why aren't you just suing Oracle if they're screwing this up so bad?

Jillian says, can you give a more of a background?

Why isn't Oracle being held accountable directly?

Adam Urbanski do you want to start?

>> Well, Oracle provides the platform and then Oracle hires along with the client the district, the city school district.

In this case they hire third party companies that assist in implementation.

So they don't directly do that.

We representing the workers in the Rochester City School District, cannot sue Oracle because we're not a party to this.

We can only sue our employer if they violate our contract or the law.

As you know, RTA has already filed a lawsuit, an injunction in Monroe County Supreme Court, and it may not be the only lawsuit that we will be filing.

It may.

We're now exploring whether or not we should also file a lawsuit for theft of wages through neglect and negligence, because what our attorneys are explaining to us is that theft of wages, which is violation of labor law, doesn't have to be just stealing.

It could be a result of the negligence by the employer.

I hope that we don't have to do that.

But if that's what it takes, we may be doing that.

>> Anything to add there?

Doreen Ange that cover it.

>> So as far as the contractors, if you want to, or the third party vendors is what their Oracle partners is, what they're called.

So the system is purchased by one third party vendor.

It was implemented in our case by two other third party members.

And now day two helpdesk help that that's done by another third party vendor.

So you can't everyone's pointing the finger at somebody else for these issues.

>> I don't work in your district and I'm getting frustrated.

>> Guys.

>> It sounds really, really absurd.

okay, Amy is asking regarding this issue with the paychecks, why can't the district cut paper checks until they figure this out?

>> Well, I will tell you, that's what the paper checks.

some have been cut out.

They have been doing it, but not all of them go through.

We have members that unfortunately go to the bank and they're denied.

They can't cash the check.

And then they go to another bank and they are charged a fee to cash the check.

We had one unfortunately, it the way it was written up, I don't know if it was the paper they used or whatever, but the bank mistook it as a check to a fraud and had to call 911 because they thought it was a fraud and it wasn't.

>> Oh.

>> To determine how much money to pay a particular employee takes a lot of data, and it's fluctuating data.

It's not.

It's not static data.

And so it's actually a lot more time consuming to write a paper check.

Contrary to popular perception, it's a lot more time consuming to cut because you don't know for how much to cut, because all the data already exists in Oracle.

So they sort of committed to Oracle and to that platform.

So they could cut an occasional check or two.

They cannot cut 6000 checks every other week.

>> And so there was a number at last night's board meeting of over 4000 off cycle checks that were distributed to people.

And I was there with a few of my members when this first happened in July, and sat with them for hours waiting for these checks to be processed for them.

And they said it roughly takes about an hour per paper check, because they have to do all the calculations, all the deductions.

Yeah.

So you're waiting a while.

>> That that is not an efficient way of doing things.

>> Yeah.

Plus they had to find typewriters to do it on because the printer didn't work.

>> And I also I understand Jimmy's idea there.

Jimmy's just thinking cut paper checks to make up for it.

It sounds like that's not the solution.

>> No, again, we're not simple payroll.

So that's the thing.

If it was simple, you work 40 hours a week, you get your healthcare deductions, your tax deductions, and you go on your way.

That's not how we unfortunately, how we are.

>> go ahead.

>> And if you have six.

>> Employees as a business, small business, then you can cut paper checks.

No problem.

But if you have 6000 plus employees and a lot goes into it, extra work deductions, contributions, impossible to do it manually.

>> Tim writes in to say that it sounds like some employees are dealing with the inconvenience of having to wait longer for a full check, but at least they're still getting paid in the end.

And he's implying that this is kind of an overblown issue.

So for Tim, who's wondering, look on his face kind of said it all there.

But but Tim is hearing this conversation and he's thinking, okay, you didn't get it.

Must be annoying not to get your full check on the day you're supposed to get it, but you're still getting it.

>> Well, I will tell you this a lot of our members are single parents.

All right.

To wait for your money when you got to feed your family.

Yes.

You get it eventually, but you got to eat every day.

Okay?

That's that's one side of it.

The other side of it is that in order to pay your bills on time, you got to get paid on time.

Hence your late.

Here comes the fees that go with it.

Now you have to pay more.

And if you're not more every day, every month that you're behind, what's going to happen, it just piles up and piles up.

So yes, they are grateful that they are getting it.

But the way they're getting it and like today, this morning, a member called me Doriy.

I didn't get paid this morning, I didn't get paid.

And they wait.

And then when they do get their checks, they may get it on Wednesday.

All right.

Our members are not in this position for the money.

They're in this position because they like working with the kids.

They love what they do.

Okay.

Because I tell you, working for any kind of government, I mean, school district, you're not in it for the money.

You got to be in it for the heart, for the kids and stuff like that.

All right.

So with that being said, yes, they are grateful they received it.

And they've been our members have been very patient.

But that only can last so long.

And it's not totally like I said, the district I mean, they have this system, they're trying to do what they can do to repair it, but the damage is already done.

Okay.

You cannot go back from that.

>> And it is true that most people are getting paid.

They're just not getting paid correctly.

And that has undermined their confidence that they're getting there are thinking if if they aren't doing my payroll correctly now I have to spend X number of hours.

>> Yeah, that's exactly right.

>> Chasing it down.

>> Yeah.

Or or even asking I mean it is certainly I'm very fortunate that, you know, with my situation I don't analyze it every other week to go.

Wait a second.

Is that right down to the dime.

Why was this deducted?

Was this too much?

obviously, if you're getting a check that's minuscule.

You know, something's obviously wrong.

But the harder problems would be the ones that are off by a hundred bucks or 50 bucks or 200 bucks.

So I just think I would caution Tim not to downplay how difficult this is for employees who, number one, shouldn't have to deal with this at all.

And number two, they might not be in your financial situation, Tim.

I mean, like, this is hard for people.

I mean, go ahead, Adam.

>> There's another aspect to it that's not immediately evident, and that is that something is deducted from your paycheck in order to go to the retirement system or to your bank or whoever.

And it never gets there.

Some people have been dropped by insurance companies for their auto insurance or for their health insurance, because what was deducted correctly never reached its destination because of the system of the Oracle system.

>> And you want to add there Ange.

>> no, just there was a mass failure of money going being taken out of your check, going to the retirement system, and it's still happening where money is deducted.

The retirement system doesn't see it.

We've had people just this week got second default notices that their loan is in default and the money was deducted from their paycheck, but never made it there.

>> Laura watching on YouTube wants a clarification.

Says so.

The RCSD doesn't even know what the exact problems are.

And it's now the union's job to play detective.

Every payroll.

Is that a fair description?

>> Yes.

That's what it feels like.

>> Doriy.

Yes.

>> Oh, yeah.

Absolutely.

>> Okay.

Bill writes in to say, why would a group of bookkeepers be able to accomplish by knowing the number of hours times the salary rate per person, and then just write a check from the school budget?

Not that simple.

>> No.

>> Not that simple.

>> Unfortunately not.

okay.

So I think that's similar to, you know, Jimmy's question, which was a fair one.

And Bill, again, I know why you're feeling going in that direction, but no, I don't think that that's a doable thing here.

So let's get I think we've got Bob next on the phone.

Hey, Rob, go ahead.

Bob, maybe.

>> Yeah.

Hi.

How are you?

Go ahead.

Bob.

so it doesn't sound like Rochester's a one off when it comes to this problem.

It sounds like there's multiple districts that are dealing with the same issue.

Why is there not a class action suit against Oracle?

Because of this.

>> class action suit?

That's an interesting question.

>> Well, why is there no class action suit yet?

I wouldn't rule it out.

but but the way to begin is with an injunction.

If if that doesn't solve the problem with a lawsuit for theft of of of wages and and then a a maybe a class action suit with other locations in localities, but but you see the problem, the problem is that Oracle is a giant of a corporation.

It has the largest cloud in existence, to the best of our knowledge, I don't think that entities like the Rochester City School District can match their battery of lawyers.

they have hundreds, if not thousands of lawyers.

So it would be up to those school systems to file a class action lawsuit, not up to us.

We're limited.

We can only file the class any lawsuit against the employer.

>> Do you think the district should have sued somebody by now?

>> Yes.

>> Do you agree?

>> Oh, yeah.

Definitely.

>> So you're saying that the district is dragging its feet on moving legally?

>> I think there is lack of decisive leadership at the top of the district.

And I don't mean just the superintendent.

I mean the majority of the board.

>> Let me get Hoover in Pittsford, who may want to hit that point as well.

Go ahead.

Hoover.

>> Hi, Evan.

I'm so happy you're having this conversation for our community.

This is abysmal.

It's shameful.

I went k through 12 in the city school district and all my family did too.

And I remember.

Adam.

I competed against some of your cousins that went to Edison Tech.

So I've been around a.

>> While in athletics.

Yeah.

>> Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And what I'm hearing is, first, there was a comment about people are in this for the education.

Well, you know what?

That's true.

But it stops when you get into the six figure plus positions like the director of purchasing, the director of finance assistant superintendents.

They're in it for the money, you know that, and I know that.

And they were they're so incompetent that they can't even pay the principal people who carry the district forward.

And that's it's it's a shameful thing.

And they ought to be terminated immediately.

The school board itself has an absolute lack of leadership in this.

I don't know where these people come from who run for the school board, but apparently they're sitting on their hands and they're, you know, having too much cups of coffee.

Adam, you are an amazing guy.

You've been around for a long time and you were doing the right thing.

I don't know if class action is going to work on this, because it takes so darn long and the people need to get paid, so let's get some people out of their jobs that are sitting nice and comfy and cozy in the city school district building.

They didn't do their job.

They should have done their job, and they're still not doing their job.

So let's see some action.

Maybe city council has to step in, but somebody needs to do something.

This is an embarrassment to the city of Rochester and the alumni who are out here.

I live in the suburbs now, but all of us who went through the city school district when it was a good district and things like this did not happen.

And having worked in government, when you're when you're taking a payroll system from one vendor to another, you've got to get it right.

These people were asleep at the job.

So thanks for the thing.

And, you know, that's those are my you know, 97 comments.

>> Hoover.

Thank you for that.

Here.

Go ahead.

>> Adam, I just want to mention one side side note to that we should not blame the people who work in the payroll department at the city school district.

These are members of the union.

But.

But these are people who yesterday testified to the board that they have no confidence in the platform, that they are now.

implementing and that at that, they don't think it can ever be a good match with the Rochester.

>> They don't think this can be fixed.

>> Right.

>> Mary Lou wrote in who's, by the way, related to an RCSD teacher from inadequate.

Mary Lou says similar to Hoover's point, wondering if the person responsible for going ahead with Oracle, despite being advised that the program is not ready, still have a job.

It's a harsh question, but I guess it's a fair one here.

So Mary Lou wants to know who ultimately was responsible for the installation of Oracle.

>> Oracle was the deal with Oracle was made when Leslie Meyer Small was superintendent, I believe, and that was during the COVID period.

>> Okay.

And Dr.

Small is obviously not part of the district anymore.

>> Not anymore.

The decision to go live in July was made by a subsequent superintendent.

but at the end of the day, the buck stops with the school board and the majority of the board voted to go ahead when they were, despite the fact that they were advised that they're not ready for prime time and they shouldn't go live.

>> Okay, Mary Lou, I hope that answers your question there.

let's get Alan next in Rochester.

Hi, Alan.

Go ahead.

>> Hi.

I worked for 30 years for the city of Rochester, mostly in budget and finance.

During that period, we purchased a whole new accounting system, and it was extensively beta tested before we actually relied on it.

We kept the old semi manual system in place, and there were some bugs in it, and the staff and the finance department worked intensively with our own data processing people and also with the vendor to get the bugs out of it.

Before we actually started using it live and having people rely on it for their paychecks.

What the hell happens in the city school district?

Where's their data processing staff and who beta tested this thing?

>> Yeah.

Was there beta testing?

Do we know.

>> For four years they tested in in playing this implementation.

>> And and they only tested for the ten month employees.

And where we also work during the summertime.

And we also get differentials.

And that wasn't taken into accountability when they ended up going through this.

>> So I just think that they didn't have the right people in their group.

And again, people come and go during four years, but our payroll staff that work in this systems every day, they were just brought in five weeks before, cut over and said.

>> That's ridiculous.

>> Do you have any input?

Go ahead.

People that are going to work on it every day.

>> Go ahead.

Alan.

>> I mean, you you should have.

>> The thing running in parallel for a couple of months at minimum, to see whether it agrees with the former manual system.

And if it doesn't, why it doesn't.

And you should have good professional data.

People working for the city school district, and that can troubleshoot the system before it.

People rely on it.

I don't understand this.

This is crazy.

No other no other entity would put in a system that had that many problems with it.

>> Well, Alan, I don't think our guests disagree with that, but I just want to make sure I understand, though, one important point going forward is this poor implementation primarily, or is the whole thing just a lemon?

And it's just not going to work?

>> I think it's I think poor implementation and lack of preparation and lack of training is certainly a portion of it.

I don't know if it's the entirety of it.

I'm not an expert on technology or on these platforms, but I can tell you one thing.

This is not a good match.

And if you can't fix something after five consecutive payrolls and four months and four years of preparation, then guess what?

You're not going to fix it.

>> Okay.

>> One of the vendors, just the perspective is one of the vendors that they could have picked.

All they do is school district payroll in New York State.

And they did not go with that company.

>> And they want to add there.

>> I'm with Adam.

I don't know a lot about the technology, but I did trust them that they were going to do everything that they were supposed to do in order for us to be paid on a regular basis.

>> let me just keep squeezing.

You guys have lit up the phones in the emails.

We can break a record today.

People are really fired up about this.

And this is Shirley in Rochester.

Next.

Hi, Shirley.

Go ahead.

>> Hi.

Thank you for taking my call.

Evan.

I joined the program late, so you may have already covered this.

And it might be water under the bridge, but can someone very briefly articulate what the problems were with the previous system?

That this new system, Oracle was supposed to address?

>> Shirley.

>> That's one question.

Yeah.

One question.

And then my comment is that maybe we need to do what is being recommended for Congress.

Maybe some people need to have their paychecks withheld.

And until they feel a sense of urgency in resolving this.

>> Yeah.

>> So the first part, Shirley, is a good question and it has not been addressed on this program yet.

Did you need a whole new system to begin with?

>> Well, first of all, let me let me tell you, the system we had before Oracle is called PeopleSoft.

We didn't have these problems with PeopleSoft.

We did not have these problems with Oracle.

Bought out PeopleSoft, but they bought it in order to kill it in order to deactivate it.

So now you can't go back to PeopleSoft because Oracle owns it.

And it's been deactivated.

So this this is a very scenic route to disaster is what it is.

>> Okay.

Anything to add there guys.

>> So it's like if you have windows 95 you can't live on it forever.

This people staff was around 20 years old okay.

And they stopped.

Any updates to that system.

From what I understand a few years ago.

>> But again if you're just joining us, RCSD chose a system that nobody in the suburbs is using.

someone's asking, what's the city of Rochester uses, not Oracle.

I assume.

>> No.

>> Okay.

And only a couple of other districts in the state are using, and it's known for its problems.

>> Right.

>> Okay.

Fascinating.

Khaite writes in to say I oversaw two vendor supplied software systems across 12 years as a client.

Implementations are a nightmare.

And then she says this.

I don't think we should blame the RCSD team.

In my personal experience, number one software sales staffs lie full stop.

You go through discovery, they smile at you and they say, of course we can set up the system that way largely lies that you don't discover until implementation is done and you've gone live.

Testing periods may restrict client access to kick the tires and find the errors.

Number two programmers change jobs all the time.

You submit a work ticket and the programmer may not understand the issue or just not care.

Number three by this time, the software sales rep has jumped ship to another company.

And number four, I recommend, she says, watching the PBS series Mr.

Bates versus the Post Office.

That massive software system was at fault, but it took forever to prove it.

They invented the phrase the software is functioning as designed, yes, but it was full of errors by design.

That's my nutshell version.

That's Khaite.

>> She may be right on all of these points, but here's here is another point.

There are thousands and thousands of payroll systems in this country, and the only one that we know of that has inability to to be done correctly is Oracle.

Oracle.

We're not whether if they want to use Oracle for other for as a business platform or whatever fine.

But for payroll take a proven system that works everywhere it exists.

And there are such systems in New York State.

And that's what needs to be done.

>> Well, Michael is saying why can't they contact large employers like Ermc, Wegmans, other large school districts and find out how they do it and just do what they do?

I mean.

>> Good question.

>> Fair question.

>> Fair question.

>> Okay.

Because at the at the end of this, the one thing that's still stuck in my mind is if I was working for Oracle and I heard these conversations, I'd be embarrassed and I would probably send our best people to be working every day to make sure that you are all getting paid, that every employee got paid correctly.

So our reputation isn't destroyed.

>> In Gaston, North Carolina, Oracle has been implemented now for 5 or 6 years, and they're still having problems.

Gaston, North Carolina.

>> Okay, I don't again, maybe the team from Oracle can call me because I guys this is not good for your PR and I I'm baffled by this.

But as we get ready to close here Doriy Jackson what has to happen next year?

What do you want to leave with listeners?

>> Okay, well, I do want our listeners to know that, like I said, we are grateful that our members are getting paid.

Yes.

It's not on time and it's a struggle.

However, we are having a food drive nonperishable.

We are asking for nonperishable items Monday through Friday because we're not open on the weekends at 30 North Union Street.

>> 30 North Union Street.

>> Yes, nonperishable items to help.

At least you know one.

If they can get fed, then the money, when they do get it, it can go towards the bills.

So a little help goes a long way.

So I am asking I'm putting it out there.

>> Okay.

Ange.

>> just that I don't believe this will ever be fixed.

>> And with this.

>> System, the system.

Just an example.

They can't even put the system in the right time zone.

So you make a change, you make a change.

And it should be 12:00.

It shows up as 4:00 in the afternoon.

It's four hours off and they can't figure out how to fix it.

>> So in your view, you've seen enough time to move on.

>> It is definitely.

>> Cut your losses.

Okay.

>> Unfortunately, it's a big 60, 80, $90 million mistake.

>> Okay, Adam Urbanski final thoughts?

>> Right after a pattern of loss of confidence by the employees in a school district and leaving for other environments soon thereafter, I predict if this isn't addressed, there will be a mass loss of confidence in a school system that can't even pay its employees correctly by the families of the students.

So this district is doing a nosedive.

If it doesn't take this with a greater sense of urgency.

>> So there's real risk in the near term here.

>> Correct?

>> I know that you'll all keep us informed.

I also want to say again I appreciate the fact that the superintendent, who literally started in July when these problems popped up, didn't anticipate this.

And I hope we can keep talking to the board.

The superintendent, to union leaders until something is solved here.

And I want to thank Adam Urbanski Ange Palmerini Doriy Jackson, representing their folks for being here.

Thank you for all taking the time to be on the program.

>> Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

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