-- THIS WEEK ON TO THE CONTRARY.

>> UP FIRST, THERE IS NO MORE FEDERAL PROTECTION FOR ABORTION RIGHTS.

WHICH HAS EXISTED OR HAD EXISTED FOR ALMOST 50 YEAR, THEN ANOTHER LAW THAT HAS BEEN IN EFFECT FOR HALF CENTURY, BOOSTING WOMEN'S PARTICIPATION IN SPORTS AND THE ECONOMY.

THAT IS TITLE NINE.

[ MUSIC ] >> HELLO, WELCOME TO THE CONTRARY.

A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS, FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

ABORTION RIGHTS RULERS ARE DOWNCAST, OPPONENTS ARE ELATED OVER A 6-3 RULING FROM THE SUPREME COURT DECLARING THAT THERE'S NO FEDERAL PROTECTION FOR ABORTION RIGHTS.

JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO WROTE FOR THE COURT THE ROE V. WADE DECISION WAS QUOTE, EGREGIOUSLY WRONG, WHEN IT FOUND A PRIVACY RIGHT IN THE CONSTITUTION SUPPORTING PREGNANT PERSONS ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY, WOMEN, AND GIVING THEM CONTROL OVER THEIR OWN BODIES.

JUSTICE ALITO USED THE TERM, EGREGIOUSLY, MORE THAN A DOZEN TIMES IN THE OPINION.

IT WAS VERY SHARP-TONED.

READING MUCH LIKE NOT JUST A TYPICAL SUPREME COURT RULING, BUT A SNUB AT THE OTHER SIDE.

ABORTION RIGHTS SUPPORTERS SAY THEY GO TO WORK AT LEAST INITIALLY CHALLENGING STATE BANS ON ABORTIONS WHERE SUCH A CHALLENGE MIGHT OR HAS A PROSPECT OF WORKING, AND HELPING STATES SUCH AS NEW YORK, CALIFORNIA AND COLORADO THAT SUPPORT ABORTION RIGHTS.

ABORTION OPPONENTS SAY THAT THEY WANT TO BUILD UP THE NUMBER OF SO-CALLED CRISIS PREGNANCY CENTERS WHERE THEY OFFER PREGNANT PERSONS SMALL BITS OF FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE, SUCH AS BLANKETS, CRIBS, ETCETERA, IN ORDER TO HELP PERSUADE THEM TO MAINTAIN THEIR PREGNANCIES.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE IMMEDIATE IMPACT.

THE MOST IMMEDIATE IMPACT IS THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

WHERE CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE ARE AT ISSUE.

MAYBE THE DEMOCRATS, MAYBE THIS RULING FROM THE SUPREME COURT, WILL ALLOW THE DEMOCRATS TO DEFY HISTORY AND KEEP THE MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE, WHAT'S LESS LIKELY IS THAT THIS WILL DRIVE SO MANY VOTERS TO THE POLLS, THAT THEY WILL BE ABLE TO PICK UP SEATS IN THE U.S. SENATE.

NOTHING LIKE A PARTISAN SUPREME COURT OPINION TO GET OPPONENTS OF THAT OPINION TO GO VOTE.

SECOND IMPACT, MRITIZATION OF THE SUPREME COURT, SEEN THE COURT AS A NONPARTISAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT OR BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT, THAT IS CHANGING AS OPINIONS BECOME MORE POLITICAL LIKE THIS ONE ISSUED BY THE SUPREME COURT.

IN FACT, CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS HAS WANTED TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING, HE'S REPORTEDLY BEEN TELLING ASSOCIATES THAT HE DIDN'T WANT THE COURT TO BE SEEN BY AMERICANS AS A POLITICAL ARM.

THAT IS WHY HE ISSUED HIS OWN CONCURRING OPINION SAYING HE WOULD NOT HAVE VOTED TO OVERTURN ROE, BUT INSTEAD, WOULD HAVE VOTED TO UPHOLD THE MISSISSIPPI LAW THAT BANNED ABORTIONS AFTER 15 WEEKS OF PREGNANCY.

NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT OTHER RIGHTS THAT ARE AFFECTED.

JUSTICE ALITO SAID IN THE DRAFT OPINION THAT NO OTHER CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS BASED ON RIGHT OF PRIVACY WOULD BE AFFECTED, GAY MARRIAGE AND THE RIGHTS FOR MEN AND WOMEN TO ACCESS BIRTH CONTROL.

BUT IN FACT, A HALF DOZEN OR SO CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS ARE BASED AT LEAST IN PART ON THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY.

INCLUDING THE RIGHT TO BIRTH CONTROL.

THE RIGHT TO GAY MARRIAGE.

ALSO, RED STATES ARE ALREADY REGULATING THOSE RIGHTS, AND WE WILL SEE A LOT MORE OF THAT TO COME.

AND THEN PARENTAL INFORMATION, PARENTAL CONTROL OVER WHAT THEIR KIDS CAN SEE ONLINE.

THOSE RIGHTS WILL MOST LIKELY BE CHALLENGED BECAUSE THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY DOES NOT EXIST ANYMORE, ACCORDING TO THIS SUPREME COURT.

JUSTICE ALITO WROTE IN HIS MAJORITY OPINION THAT THE ABORTION ISSUE HAS DIVIDED THE NATION UNNECESSARILY AND POLITICAL ANALYSTS SAY, THOUGH, THAT THIS OPINION WILL EXACERBATE DIVISION, A COUNTRY ALREADY RIFEN BY DIVISION ON A HOST OF ISSUES, BECAUSE IT WILL SPUR PROTESTS, AND SLEWS OF LEGAL CHALLENGES TO THIS OPINION.

ESPECIALLY SINCE SUPPORT FOR ABORTION RIGHTS IS NOW ON THE RISE.

AS OF JUST A FEW YEARS AGO, ABOUT 50% OF AMERICANS SUPPORTED ROE V. WADE, SUPPORTED THE RIGHT TO ABORTION, IT'S RISEN IN THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS, AS WE'VE SEEN MORE AND MORE MEDIA COVERAGE OF THE FACT THAT THIS RIGHT WAS IN JEOPARDY, TO 60%, AND IT WILL KEEP ON RISING.

WE NOW RETURN YOU TO OUR EARLIER SCHEDULED PROGRAM ON TITLE NINE'S 50th ANNIVERSARY.

>> WOMEN NATIONWIDE ARE COMMEMORATING THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF TITLE NINE.

THAT CRITICAL LAW BARS SEX DISCRIMINATION IN SPORTS, IN ALL EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS, RECEIVING FEDERAL FUNDS.

IT'S BEEN LOUTED AS A MAJOR FORCE IN WOMEN'S ADVANCEMENT, BUT THERE'S ALSO A NEW BATTLE BREWING, OVER TRANSGENDER GIRLS PLAYING ON GENRE TEAMS, THE INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM, SOME OF WHOSE MEMBERS ARE REGULAR PANELISTS ON THIS SHOW, HELD A RALLY IN SUPPORT OF KEEPING WOMEN'S SPORTS FOR WOMEN BORN FEMALES.

MANY OF THE GROUPS AT THE RALLY HAVE CRITICIZED TITLE NINE IN THE PAST, THEY'RE NOW SAYING THAT ALLOWING TRANSGENDER ATHLETESES ON THESE TEAMS GIVES THEM AN UNFAIR PHYSICAL ADVANTAGE.

AND THEY ERASING GAINS IN THE PAST HALF CENTURY.

>> WE'VE SEEN 50 YEARS OF PROGRESS SINCE TITLE NINE, BUT THE FUTURE OF TITLE NINE, THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT HAVE COME ABOUT BECAUSE OF IT ARE AT PERIL BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS AND POLICIES COMING FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, AND CONGRESS'S FAILURE TO ACT THUS FAR TO PROTECT WOMEN AND GIRLS IN SPORTS.

SO I AM SO PROUD TO STAND WITH THESE INCREDIBLE ATHLETES THAT WHO ARE HERE TODAY BRINGING VOICE TO SO MANY WHO ARE UNABLE TO EXERCISE THEIR OWN VOICE.

[ CHEERING AND APPLAUSE ] >> AND THIS WEEK, THE BODY THAT GOVERNS WORLD SWIMMING COMPETITIONS ANNOUNCED ITS NEW GENDER POLICY.

TRANSGENDER ATHLETES WHO TRANSITION AFTER TURNING 12 YEARS OLD, ARE BEING BANNED FROM COMPETING IN WOMEN'S EVENTS.

THE INTERNATIONAL RUGBY LEAGUE FOLLOWED SUIT, BANNING TRANSGENDER PLAYERS FROM WOMEN'S INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION.

JOINING ME TODAY ARE DC DELEGATE ELEANOR HOM HOLMES, PROFESSOR LAURA BROWN OF GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY, AND GENEVIEVE WOOD OF THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION.

>> SINCE WE'RE AT AROUND A HALF CENTURY NOW, WITH THIS MAJOR LAW, THAT IS WIDELY CREDITED WITH GIVING WOMEN NOT JUST OPPORTUNITIES IN SPORTS BUT MAKING THEM BETTER BUSINESS WOMEN, BETTER MOTHERS, YOU KNOW, IT GOES ON AND ON AND ON.

HAS TITLE NINE FULFILLED ITS PROMISE TO WOMEN?

>> IT HAS BEGUN TO.

WE STILL HAVE QUITE A WAYS TO GO.

BUT TITLE NINE HAS CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE FOR WOMEN VIRTUALLY ACROSS THE BOARD.

>> AND YOUR THOUGHTS, LAURA, YOU KNOW OF A MAJOR STUDY DONE BY THE NEWSPAPER, USA TODAY, ABOUT THE EFFECT WOMEN HAVE REALIZED FROM TITLE NINE, PLEASE TELL US IT.

>> SO BONNIE, WHAT'S SO INTERESTING IS THAT USA TODAY DID A COMPREHENSIVE ANALYSIS OF 107 SCHOOLS, THEY LOOKED AT THOSE COLLEGES IN THE NCAA, DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL, SUBDIVISION, TO REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW TITLE NINE WAS OPERATING IN THE ATHLETIC PROGRAMS IN THOSE SCHOOLS.

AND WHAT THEY FOUND WAS THAT THERE WAS SORT OF A WIDESPREAD MANIPULATION OF THE DATA THAT HAS ALLOWED TO BE REPORTED TO THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, THAT IN FACT, SHOWS THAT THE SCHOOLS ARE ABIDING BY SORT OF THE LETTER OF THE LAW, BUT NOT THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW.

SO FOR INSTANCE, WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THEY'RE COUNTING WOMEN ATHLETES SAY IN TRACK AND FIELD, WHO COMEPETE IN THREE OR FOUR DIFFERENT SPORTS WITHIN TRACK AND FIELD AS THREE ATHLETES.

AND AS A RESULT, THEY'RE DOUBLE COUNTING WOMEN THAT MEANS THEY'RE NOT GETTING THE SAME NUMBER OF WOMEN WHO ARE ACTUALLY JOINING THEIR ATHLETIC PROGRAMS AS MEN.

THEY'RE ALSO DOING THINGS WHEREBY PRACTICE PLAYERS WHO ARE SCRIMMAGING WITH THE FEMALE ATHLETES WHO HAPPEN TO BE MEN ARE COUNTED AS FEMALE PLAYERS.

SO THEY FOUND, FOR INSTANCE, THAT ONE IN FOUR ATHLETES WHO ARE PLAYING WOMEN'S BASKETBALL ARE IN FACT MEN WHO ARE JUST SCRIMMAGE PLAYERS WITH THE WOMEN'S TEAM.

>> IS THERE ANY FEDERAL POLICING OF TITLE NINE TO MAKE SURE IT'S FOLLOWED TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW?

OR DOES IT JUST LIKE MOST FEDERAL LAWS SORT OF RESPOND TO MEDIA REPORTS OR RESPOND TO COMPLAINTS FROM WOMEN AT UNIVERSITIES WHERE THEY DON'T FEEL THEY'RE BEING TREATED EQUALLY?

>> WHAT YOU SEE IS THAT THE NUMBERS OF THESE SCHOOLS ARE REPORTING TO THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, SORT OF FULFILL ALL OF THE INTRICACIES AND DETAILED DATA THAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO PROVIDE, BUT THE SCHOOLS ARE THEN TURNING AROUND AND PROVIDING VERY DIFFERENT DATA TO THE NCAA, WHICH IS THE GOVERNING ASSOCIATION FOR THE ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE.

AND WHAT THIS SHOWS IS THAT THEY CAN MOVE AROUND THE NUMBERS.

NOW, THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION PUT OUT FOR PUBLIC COMMENT SOME NEW REGULATIONS THAT WILL AFFECT WOMEN, PLEASE TELL US ABOUT THOSE, LINDA CHAVEZ.

>> THE NEW PROPOSED REGS WERE PUT OUT TO RESCIND THE REGULATIONS THAT WERE PUT IN BY THE TRUMP HOURS, BY BETSY DEVOS, AND THE FOCUS WAS ON CHANGING THE WAY THAT WE DEAL WITH ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, AND SEXUAL HARASSMENT, AND DURING THE TRUMP YEAR, REGULATIONS WERE PUT OUT WHICH IN MY VIEW WERE VERY GOOD REGULATIONS THAT TOOK INTO ACCOUNT THE DUE PROCESS RIGHTS OF THOSE WHO WERE ACCUSED BUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS DECIDED TO RESCIND THOSE AND PUT OUT A WHOLE NEW SERIES, INTERESTINGLY, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY CHOSE NOT TO TACKLE IN THESE NEW PROPOSED REGULATION WAS THE QUESTION OF TRANSGENDER ATHLETES AND THAT'S BECAUSE THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT NOT ONLY IS CONTROVERSIAL CONTROVERSIAL, IT'S VERY UNPOPULAR WITH WHITE SEGMENTS OF THE POPULATION.

>> GENEVIEVE, YOUR THOUGHTS ON NOT ONLY THE IMPACT OF TITLE NINE OVER A HALF CENTURY, BUT ALSO, WHAT LINDA JUST MENTIONED, THE CONTROVERSIES OVER TRANSGENDER WOMEN AND WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO COMPETE AGAINST WHAT THE TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY HAS COME UP WITH AS A TAG FOR WOMEN WHO ARE BORN FEMALE, SIS GENDER WOMEN.

>> THIS IS THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF TITLE NINE BUT BECAUSE THE TRANSGENDER IN SPORT ARENA HAS COME UP, IT'S CONFLATED INTO THIS ONE ISSUE, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT ISSUE, THE QUESTION OF WHETHER MEN WHO HAVE TRANSGENDERED TO BECOME WOMEN, CAN COMPETE IN WOMEN'S SPORTS.

AGAINST BIOLOGICAL WOMEN.

IT'S ACTUALLY BROADER THAN TITLE NINE, THAT CAN GO TO A YOUTH SOCCER LEAGUE, THE OLYMPICS, THAT IS A VERY BROAD DEBATE.

I DON'T THINK THAT TRANSGENDERED MEN WHO BECOME WOMEN SHOULD BE ABLE TO COMPETE AGAINST BIOLOGICAL WOMEN.

I JUST -- I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO WOMEN.

I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR AT ANY AGE, I KNOW THAT WE'VE GOT NOW, I THINK THE SWIMMING ASSOCIATION SAYING THAT WELL, AS LONG AS IT'S, YOU KNOW, AFTER THEY'RE 12, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE PUSHING CHILDREN TO DECIDE WHAT SEX THEY ARE AT EIGHT YEARS OLD OR TO GET IT IN BEFORE THEY'RE 12 SO THEY CAN PLAY SPORTS, SO THERE'S A LOT THAT GOES INTO THIS DEBATE, AND I AGREE WITH LINDA, I THINK THAT ONE REASON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T WANT TO TACKLE IT, THEY KNOW HOW CONTROVERSIAL IT IS.

>> LOOK, IN SPORT, THE WAY WE DISTINGUISH OR THE WAY WE LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD IS DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN MALES AND FEMALES.

AND I'M NOT READY TO GIVE THAT UP.

FOR TRANSGENDER OR ANYBODY ELSE.

THOSE DISTINCTIONS MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR EACH SEX TO COMPETE FAIRLY.

THAT'S WHAT I'M INTERESTED IN.

>> IS THAT CHANGING, THOUGH, BECAUSE INITIALLY THE PROGRESSIVE COMMUNITY CAME VERY HARD OUT IN FAVOR OF ALLOWING TRANSGENDER WOMEN TO COMPETE AGAINST SIS-GENDER WOMEN, AND YOU JUST LOOK AT THE PICTURES SOMETIMES AND YOU SEE THE TRANSGENDER WOMEN ARE TALLER, THEIR BONES ARE LONGER, THEY HAVE MUSCLES THAT SIS-GENDER WOMEN DON'T HAVE, BECAUSE THEIR BODIES, HOWEVER LONG BEFORE THEY TRANSITIONED, WERE BEING FED BY NATURE, A WHOLE LOT MORE TESTOSTERONE THAN, ESTROGEN, BUT THE SCIENCE SAYS, I FOUND THIS EXTREMELY INTERESTING THAT THE TRANSGENDER MUSCLES, THE TRANSGENDER BODY IS -- HAS MORE TROUBLE BECAUSE THEY ARE ON HORMONES, THEY'RE ON A LOT OF ESTROGEN AND FEMALE HORMONES THAT MAKE IT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEIR MUSCLES TO CARRY THE WEIGHT OF THEIR BODIES BECAUSE THEY ALL ARE BIGGER AND TALLER.

SO WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE US?

>> IN A MESS.

[ LAUGHTER ] AND BONNIE, TO YOUR POINT, THERE'S A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, VERY PROMINENT VOICES IN THE GAY COMMUNITY, WHO ARE OPPOSED TO THIS, MARTINA, WHO IMCA OUT AGAINST THIS, A FAMOUS TENNIS PLAYER, WHO IS A LESBIAN.

SHE'S OPPOSEDED TO THIS, BECAUSE SHE REALIZES THIS WILL GREATLY IMPACT FEMALE SPORTS.

AND NOT ALL TRANSGENDER WOMEN WILL BE OTHER BIOLOGICAL WOMEN BUT WHEN YOU START LOOKING AT THE NUMBERS, THEY HAVE A ADVANTAGE AND MUCH OF IT COMES BACK TO TESTOSTERONE.

>> YOU MENTIONED EARLIER ABOUT THE INTERNATIONAL SWIMMING BODY, THAT GOVERNS ALL OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMPETITIONS, AND INCLUDING THE OLYMPICS, SAYING IF A WOMAN TRANSITIONED AT THE AGE OF 12 OR YOUNGER, SHE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO PLAY ON THOSE TEAMS AND/OR SWIM IN THOSE COMPETITIONS AS FEMALE.

AS THEY HAVE, YOU KNOW -- AND GENDER AS WE KNOW, AT LEAST WITH YOUNGER PEOPLE, PEOPLE YOUNG ENOUGH TO BE ATHLETES, IS -- IS, YOU KNOW, THEY SEE IT ON A BINARY SCALE, THEY DON'T SEE IT LIKE US OLD FOLKS SEE, YOU KNOW, MEN AND WOMEN.

[ LAUGHTER ] BUT IS IT TRUE THAT -- AND YOU SAID THIS WOULD FORCE MORE CHILDREN TO CLAIM THAT THEY'RE, YOU KNOW, BORN IN A MALE BODY TO CLAIM THAT THEY'RE FEMALES.

I'M NOT SURE A AGREE WITH THAT, I THINK THAT CLAIM -- >> I'M NOT SAYING THAT, BONNIE, I'M SAYING I THINK -- THAT'S ANOTHER WHOLE DEBATE AT WHAT AGE CHILDREN SHOULD BE MAKING THESE KIND OF DECISIONS.

AND BEING ALLOWED TO MAKE THOSE KIND OF DECISIONS.

THAT'S A WHOLE ANOTHER DEBATE.

SO I WON'T GO THERE ON THAT.

>> BUT LET ME -- BUT LET ME -- WELL, IT IS -- AND A FASCINATING DEBATE, BUT FROM WHERE I SIT, I DON'T SEE ANY BORN MALES TRANSITIONING TO FEMALE, SO THEY CAN PLAY ON A SPORTS TEAM AND BEAT SIS-GENDER WOMEN, THAT'S RIDICULOUS, THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEIR BODY AND THEIR BRAINS ARE TELLING THEM THAT THEY WERE BORN INTO THE WRONG GENDER.

BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT WHETHER THAT ARBITRARY AGE OF 12 IS FAIR.

>> IT IS NOT AN ARBITRARY AGE.

SO THE ORGANIZATION FINA, ACTUALLY BROUGHT TOGETHER AN ENTIRE COMMISSION OF SCIENTISTS, ETHICS, LAWYERS, TO STUDY WHAT WAS THE RIGHT POLICY.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT I NECESSARILY AGREE WITH THE POLICY, BUT THEY DID COME TO A FINDING THAT BOYS WHO WERE BORN BOYS, PRIOR TO THE AGE OF 12 AND THE ON SET OF STAGE 2 IN PUBERTY, ARE ESSENTIALLY STILL AT A COMPETITIVE PARITY WITH FEMALES WHO WERE BORN FEMALE.

BUT ONCE YOU PASS THAT 12-YEAR-OLD MARK, OR STAGE 2 OF PUBERTY, THAT PARITY GOES AWAY AND IT'S NOW AN ADVANTAGE.

IN FACT, THEY HAVE SAID THAT THERE ARE SOME BOYS WHO ARE IN THEIR EARLY TEEN YEARS WHO ARE POSTING TIMES THAT ALREADY WOULD BEAT WOMEN OLYMPIANS.

AND SO THAT'S WHY THEY SET THAT AGE AND THAT DEVELOPMENTAL LEVEL.

>> ARE THERE ANY DATA OUT THERE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS ON SIS-GENDER WOMEN PLAYING AGAINST TRANSGENDER WOMEN?

DO THEY -- ARE THEY PHYSICALLY SUPERIOR, ARE THEY BETTER ATHLETES?

>> WE'VE SEEN, YOU KNOW, WITH LEAH THOMAS, THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, I MEAN, SHE BROKE ALL RECORDS, NONE OF THE WOMEN WHO WERE QUITE COMPETITIVE BEFORE SHE JOINED THE TEAM WERE ABLE TO BEAT HER, SO I THINK WE HAVE SOME RECORDS BUT FRANKLY, THIS IS SO NEW, BONNIE, YOU KNOW, THIS WAS UNTHINKABLE TEN YEARS AGO.

MUCH LESS 50 YEARS AGO, 100 YEARS AGO, AND EVEN THE NUMBERS OF YOUNG PEOPLE, AND IT IS MOSTLY YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW IDENTIFYING AS TRANSGENDER.

>> IN FACT, I JUST SAW A SURVEY, IT USED TO BE WELL UNDER .5% AND IN THE LAST DECADE, 1.4 OR 3% OF CHILDREN THAT YOUNG.

>> BONNIE, THESE ARE NOT EVENLY DISTRIBUTED.

THIS WERE A BIOLOGICAL PHENOMENON THAT YOU WERE TALKING, YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE EQUALLY DISTRIBUTED IN, YOU KNOW, RURAL AS WELL AS CITIES, IN COASTAL AREAS, AS WELL -- >> YOU'RE SAYING MORE CITY KIDS DO THIS -- >> ABSOLUTELY, I MEAN, THIS -- LOOK, THIS IS -- I WILL SAY IT AND I'M SURE IT WILL BE -- THIS IS A FAD THAT IS HAPPENING.

RIGHT NOW.

I THINK THAT WE ARE SEEING AN EXPLOSION OF EMPHASIS ON THIS, I THINK -- YOUNG ADOLESCENT GIRLS, IN PARTICULAR, THEY'RE NOW MORE GIRLS WHO ARE TRANSITIONING TO MALE THAN THERE ARE MALES TO FEMALES.

YOU KNOW, YOU START TO DEVELOP BREASTS, YOUR HIPS START TO SPREAD OUT, YOU'RE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH YOUR BODIES THERE'S SO MUCH PRESSURE ON YOUNG GIRLS TO HAVE A CERTAIN KIND OF BODY IMAGE, IT'S NOT SURPRISING TO ME THAT YOUNG GIRLS WHO ARE UNHAPPY WITH CHANGES THAT ARE HAPPENING IN THEIR BODIES SO, THE WAY IN WHICH THE WORLD IS REACTING TO THEM MAY TAKE REFUGE IN DECIDING THAT THEY WERE BORN IN THE WRONG BODY.

SO I REALLY THINK THAT THIS PHENOMENA WE'RE SEEING AN EXPLOSION OF IT NOW, I DON'T THINK THE SCIENCE IS CLEAR ON IT AT ALL.

AND I THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE THIS NOT BEING AS POPULAR SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE.

>> I MEAN, LET ME JUST ALSO ADD THAT WE DON'T TALK ENOUGH ABOUT GIRLS TRANSITIONING TO BOYS AND IF WE REALLY BELIEVEDED THAT THERE WAS NO BIOLOGICAL IMPACT ON THE ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE, I THINK WE WOULD SEE MANY MORE GIRLS WHO TRANSITIONED TO BOYS COMPETING IN MALE SPORTS.

AND WE JUST DON'T SEE THAT.

BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME BIOLOGICAL REALITY THAT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE AS COMPETITIVE AGAINST MEN IN THOSE SPORTS.

>> YEAH, HERE, WE'RE SEEING NATURE VERSUS NURTURE.

>> I THINK THAT JUST HIT IT THE BEST, ELEANOR, YOU JUST GOT IT RIGHT, SAYING EXACTLY WHAT LINDA SAID ABOUT THIS BEING A PHENOMENON BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH ATTENTION ON IT.

AND IT'S SO CELEBRATED IN THE MEDIA.

IN MANY RESPECTS THAT YOU SEE CHILDREN FALLING INTO IT, FRAK FRAPGLY, AND PARENTS NOT BEING PARENTS BUT FALLING ALONG WITH THE TREND AND THE FADS THEY SEE AS WELL.

>> LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

A FAD OR NOT?

PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER, AT BONNIE -- FROM CONTROVERSY OVER SPORTS TO THE CHALLENGING COMBINATION OF AGE AND GENDER.

>> A MAJORITY OF WOMEN ACROSS ALL AGES SAY THEY FACE DISCRIMINATION, WHETHER IT'S SEXISM, RACISM, AGEISM OR ANOTHER FORM OF BIGOTRY.

THAT ACCORDING TO A NEW SURVEY FROM AARP WHICH SHOWS THREE-QUARTERS OF WOMEN AGES 18-49, AND ALMOST TWO-THIRDS OF WOMEN 50 OR OLDER, FEEL DISCRIMINATED AGAINST ON A REGULAR BASIS.

THE MOST COMMON TYPE OF DISCRIMINATION CITED BY WOMEN IS BASED ON AGE.

IN FACT, A MAJORITY OF WOMEN OVER 50 WHO REPORTED FACING DISCRIMINATION SAID IT WAS BASED ON THEIR AGE AT LEAST SOME OF THE TIME.

THE NEXT-MOST COMMON FORM OF DISCRIMINATION WAS BASED ON GENDER AND GENDER IDENTITY, FOLLOWED BY RACE, WEIGHT, AND SOCIAL CLASS.

MORE THAN A THIRD OF WOMEN SAID THAT THE DISCRIMINATION IS SO BAD IT'S TAKING A TOLL ON THEIR MENTAL HEALTH.

THE TYPE OF DISCRIMINATION MOST LIKELY TO LEAD TO MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS WAS PREJUDICE BASED ON WEIGHT.

BEING A WOMAN OF COLOR, YOU'VE ALWAYS BEEN PRETTY THIN, I KNOW YOU HAD A PERIOD WHERE YOU PUT ON A LITTLE WEIGHT, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN OVERWEIGHT, WHICH FORM OF PREJUDICE DO YOU THINK IS THE WORST?

>> WELL, IT'S FUNNY THAT YOU CAME TO ME, BECAUSE I SAY I TICK ALL OF THE BOXES, I'M A LITTLE OVERWEIGHT, MY NAME IS CHAVEZ, I'M A WOMAN.

>> WHICH IS WORSE?

>> [ LAUGHTER ] >> WELL, LOOK, I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, IT ISN'T JUST WORSE, WHICH IS ILLEGAL, IT IS ILLEGAL TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST SOMEBODY ON THE BASIS OF THEIR RACE OR THEIR GENDER.

WE HAVE LAWS THAT PROTECT PEOPLE AGAINST THAT KIND OF DISCRIMINATION.

AND SO IF YOU ARE DISCRIMINATED ON EITHER OF THOSE BASIS, THERE IS A RECOURSE WHETHER OR NOT THOSE LAWS ARE AS PERFECTLY REGULATE AS WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE, YOU KNOW, WE CAN DEBATE, BUT THERE ARE LAWS.

IT'S NOT ILLEGAL TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST SOMEBODY BASED ON THEIR WEIGHT.

THERE IS -- THERE IS A LAW AGAINST DISCRIMINATING AGAINST SOMEONE BASED ON AGE BUT EVEN THAT HAS A LIMIT, IF YOU'RE MY AGE, 75, AND AN EMPLOYER HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY, I DON'T WANT TO HIRE YOU.

>> YOUR THOUGHTS ELEANOR, YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHICH KIND OF PREJUDICE IS WORSE?

>> WELL, COLOR IS THE TOP OF THE LIST, STILL, THERE'S STILL THERE THERE.

BUT IF YOU LEAVE ASIDE RACE, SEX, YOU WILL FIND THAT AGE DISCRIMINATION IS IN THIS SOCIETY A PROBLEM FOR PEOPLE PAST 50.

IT'S A PROBLEM WHETHER YOU WANT TO GET HIRED, HOW YOU WANT TO BE PERCEIVED.

>> ALL RIGHT, THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION, PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE PBS.ORG/TO THE CONTRARY AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY, SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

FOR A TRANSCRIPT OR TO SEE AN ONLINE VERSION OF THIS EPISODE OF TO THE CONTRARY, VISIT THE PBS WEBSITE AT PBS.ORG/TO THE CONTRARY.