>>> THE DYSFUNCTION FROM WASHINGTON MAY HAVE BEEN INTERRUPTED BY THE ELECTION AT LAST OF A HOUSE SPEAKER.

REPUBLICAN MIKE JOHNSON IS A VOCAL TRUMP SUPPORTER AND ELECTION DENIER AND KEY TO THE ATTEMPTS TO OVERTURN THE 2020 VOTE.

SOMEWHAT WAS ALWAYS TRY TO RISE ABOVE THE POLITICAL CHAOS WITH HIS OWN PARTY IS SENATOR MITT ROMNEY .

HE IS THE SUBJECT OF A REVEALING BIOGRAPHY BY JOURNALIST McKAY COPPENS TO DISCUSS HIS POLITICS AND ENTANGLEMENTS WITH TRUMP OVER THE YEARS.

>> WELCOME BACK, YOUR BOOK, ROMNEY RECKONING IS OUT NOW, THE FIRST QUESTION I THINK OF WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT CATALOGING THE LIFE OF THIS SENATOR, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE , GOVERNOR IS WHERE WAS, WHERE IS THE RECKONING ?

IS THIS A RECKONING THROUGH HIS WHOLE LIFE, IS THERE A SPECIFIC MOMENT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK HE IS AT A POINT NOW HE IS LOOKING BACK AT HIS LIFE AND CAREER AND THE LAST 30 YEARS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND TAKING STOCK OF WHAT HAS CHANGED.

THERE IS A MOMENT AFTER JANUARY 6th WHERE HE WATCHED MANY OF THE LEADERS OF HIS PARTY INSTIGATE WHAT HE CONSIDERED ATTEMPTED INSURRECTION AND IT SHOOK LOOSE SOMETHING IN HIM, IT MADE HIM ALARMED ABOUT THE FRAGILITY OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, ALARMED ABOUT WHAT HE BELIEVES IS THE CREEPING AUTHORITARIANISM WITHIN THE GOP BUT ALSO START TO ASK DIFFICULT QUESTIONS OF HIMSELF.

HE WANTED TO REALLY HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHETHER THE MAINSTREAM ESTABLISHMENT, REPUBLICANS LIKE HIMSELF , HAD ANY COMPLICITY OR POSSIBILITY FOR ALLOWING THE EXTREMIST FORCES ON THE RIGHT TO BASICALLY TAKE OVER THE PARTY SO OVER THE COURSE OF THE TWO YEARS I WAS WORKING ON THIS, THAT WAS A CONVERSATION WE HAD.

I WOULD GO TO HIS HOUSE ONE NIGHT EVERY WEEK AND WE WOULD ASK THOSE TOUGH QUESTIONS AND HE WOULD BACK ON HIS CAREER AND LIFE AND TELL ME ALL THE STORIES HE HAD NEVER TOLD BEFORE .

>> HE HAD AGREED TO SIT DOWN AND WORK WITH YOU ON THIS, DID HE THINK YOU WERE GOING TO DO A MEMOIR ?

THIS IS SOMETHING PEOPLE DON'T DO UNTIL THEY'RE OUT OF OFFICE AND HE HAD NOT ANNOUNCED HIS PLANS TO NOT SEEK RE-ELECTION UNTIL RECENTLY.

>> THAT'S RIGHT I WAS SURPRISED HE ACCEPTED MY CONDITIONS.

I APPROACHED HIM AND SAID THAT I BASICALLY WANT TO HAVE ALL OF THE ACCESS AUTHORIZED BIOGRAPHER WOULD HAVE BET IT WON'T BE AUTHORIZED IN THE SENSE THAT YOU WON'T HAVE ANY EDITORIAL CONTROL.

I WANT ALL OF YOUR JOURNALS, YOUR EMAIL CORRESPONDENCE, I WANT FULL ACCESS.

I GET TO DECIDE WHAT GOES INTO THE BOOK.

I EXPECTED HIM TO BALK, MAYBE WE REVISIT THIS AFTER I RETIRE.

INSTEAD, YOU MOST OF MY CONDITIONS AS ADAIR .

HE SAID OKAY, LET'S DO IT AND IMMEDIATELY BLOCKED OFF WEEKLY INTERVIEWS AND LIKE I SAID, HE GAVE ME JOURNAL ENTRIES THAT WERE INCREDIBLY CANDID, OFTEN DAMNING PORTRAITS OF MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY WITHOUT EVEN HAVING REREAD THEM.

THE RESULT IS, I THINK PRETTY UNUSUAL PRODUCT WHERE YOU HAVE STILL SITTING SENATOR ON BURDENING HIMSELF TO A BIOGRAPHER OVER TWO YEARS AND THE RESULT IS, I THINK PRETTY INTERESTING INSIGHT INTO THIS MOMENT IN AMERICAN POLITICS.

YOU DOCUMENT THE DIFFERENT TIMES, HE, MITT ROMNEY MET TRUMP EARLIER IN HIS CAREER, EVEN JOTTED DOWN IN HIS JOURNAL, HIS THOUGHTS ABOUT TRUMP, TRUMP WAS A GUY WHO SAYS 100% WHAT HE THINKS AND MAKES HIM LAUGH.

>> YEAH, I THOUGHT THAT WAS FASCINATING IN THE 2012 ELECTION, ROMNEY SPENT A LITTLE TIME WITH TRUMP AND WROTE DOWN AFTER ONE OF HIS PHONE CALLS WITH TRUMP, HE LIKES HIM , TO HIS SURPRISE, HE THOUGHT TRUMP WAS FUNNY AND GOSSIPY AND ENTERTAINING, THEIR PHONE CALLS WERE OUTRAGEOUS THAT THEY WOULD LIFT HIS SPIRITS.

WHEN I FOUND THAT ENTRY IN HIS JOURNAL, I TOOK IT BACK TO ROMNEY.

I THINK HE WAS A LITTLE EMBARRASSED.

HE SAYS THERE IS SOMETHING SEDUCTIVE ABOUT TRUMP CHARISMA, IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND HOW HE HAS BROUGHT SO MANY LEADERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY INTO HIS CAMP AND BROUGHT THEM IN LINE BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE IN THE ROOM WITH HIM, HE CAN BE MAGNETIC AND YOU WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH HIM AND THAT IS PART OF WHAT MAKES THEM SO DANGEROUS, FRANKLY .

>> I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER WHAT WAS HUMILIATING KIND OF TRYOUT FOR SECRETARY OF STATE THAT DONALD TRUMP PUT MITT ROMNEY THROUGH.

WHAT DOES HE THINK ABOUT THAT ?

EVEN THOUGH HE IS HARBORING THESE FEELINGS OF HOW CAPABLE ARE CONFIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS, WHY DID HE GO THROUGH THAT?

>> THIS IS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS HE WAS REALLY INTROSPECTIVE WITH ME IN INTERESTING WAY.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AS SECRETARY OF STATE, I WAS MOTIVATED BY TWO DUELING IMPULSES.

ON THE ONE HAND, HE WAS MOTIVATED BY DESIRE TO HELP THE COUNTRY, HE THOUGHT THAT TRUMP ELECTION WAS A CRISIS, HE WORRIED ABOUT THE CALIBER OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD APPOINT TO HIS ADMINISTRATION, AT THE TIME IN THE IMMEDIATE WAKE OF THE 2016 ELECTION, ONE AND FLOATED FOR SECRETARY OF STATE WAS RUDY GIULIANI.

ROMNEY THOUGHT THAT THAT WOULD BE A DISASTER.

HE FELT THERE NEEDED TO BE ADULTS IN THE ROOM, HE WAS NOT A SUPPORTER OF TRUMP BUT IF HE COULD GET INTO THE ROOM, MAYBE HELP STEER AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY, THAT WOULD BE A GOOD THING.

BUT , ROMNEY ALSO TOLD ME THERE WAS THIS OTHER MOTIVATION.

HE ADMITTED TO IT, HE SAID THAT THERE WAS A PART OF ME, I WANTED THE JOB, I WANTED THE POWER.

HE SAID I WANTED TO BE PRESIDENT AND I TRIED TWICE AND COULD NOT GET IT IF YOU CAN'T BECOME PRESIDENT, SECRETARY OF STATE IS A GOOD CONSOLATION PRIZE.

HE SORT OF ACKNOWLEDGES AT VARIOUS POINTS IN HIS CAREER, THAT DESIRE FOR THE TOP JOB HAS MADE HIM DO THINGS HE WOULD NOT OTHERWISE DO.

THE BOOK CONTAINS THE BEHIND- THE-SCENES STORY OF HIS NEGOTIATIONS WITH TRUMP OVER THAT JOB.

I THINK WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT THE BREAKING POINT AND THE REASON ROMNEY DID NOT GET IT WAS THAT ULTIMATELY TRUMP DEMANDED HE RETRACT EVERYTHING HE HAD SAID ABOUT TRUMP DURING THE 2016 ELECTION .

ROMNEY SAID, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T DO THAT.

I THINK I WOULD LOOK RIDICULOUS AND I'M NOT GOING TO WALK BACK EVERYTHING I SAID AND THAT WAS THE DEALBREAKER.

>> THERE IS A SECTION IN THERE THAT IS A QUOTE FROM MITCH McCONNELL TO MATT ROMNEY , HEY, YOU CAN SAY THE THINGS WE ARE ALL THINKING BUT WE CAN'T.

WE AGREE WITH YOU BUT WE CAN'T SAY IT.

WATCHING THIS ELECTION FOR HOUSE LEADERSHIP, RECEIPT ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF CONTROL FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP EXERTS FROM THE SIDELINES.

>> MM-HMM.

THAT IS RIGHT .

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BOTHERED ROMNEY THE MOST ABOUT HIS TIME IN THE SENATE DURING THE TRUMP YEARS, HE WOULD OFTEN HAVE REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES SIDE WITH HIM, HE TOOK ACCOUNT , IT HAPPENED AT LEAST 12 TIMES.

REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES WITH SIDLE UP TO HIM , I WISH I COULD SAY THE THINGS YOU ARE SAYING, I WISH I HAD THAT CONSTITUENTS THAT YOU DID.

I WISH I WAS IN THE SAME POLITICAL POSITION AS YOU BUT I JUST CAN'T.

ROMNEY BECAME SO ANNOYED WITH THIS, HE DEVELOPED A GO TO ANSWER WHERE HE WOULD SAY, THERE ARE WORSE THINGS THAN LOSING AN ELECTION, BELIEVE ME TO TAKE IT FROM ME.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE HOUSE NOW IS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.

EVEN AS DONALD TRUMP IS OUT OF POWER, HE HAS NOT PRESIDENT FOR YEARS, HE IS THE LEADER OF THE PARTY, STILL COMMANDS THE LOYALTY OF THE BASE.

BECAUSE OF THAT , SO MANY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO REALLY KNOW BETTER, I THINK , ARE AFRAID TO CROSS HIM AND AFRAID TO DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD EARN AN ANGRY PRESS RELEASE FROM THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

TRUMP 'S CONTINUED INFLUENCE IN THE PARTY IS ONE OF THE REASONS ROMNEY FEELS THERE'S NO PLACE FOR PEOPLE LIKE HIM ANYMORE .

SPEAK WHAT YOU THINK HE GETS THAT FROM?

YOU HAD A CHANCE TO TALK TO MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY, YOU TELL THE READER A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIS DAD , WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO STAND UP AND SAY I WILL BE THE ONLY REPUBLICAN THAT WILL STAND FOR IMPEACHMENT OF THE EXISTING PRESIDENT, A MEMBER OF MY OWN PARTY ?

>> I THINK YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW MITT ROMNEY PSYCHOLOGY FATHER.

HIS DAD WAS A GOVERNOR OF MICHIGAN IN THE 1960s.

AND WAS SEEN AS A LEADING PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION.

HE PLANTED HIMSELF FIRMLY IN THE LIBERAL WING OF THE PARTY AT A TIME WHEN BARRY GOLDWATER AND CONSERVATIVES WERE TAKING OVER THE PARTY AND RATHER THAN JOIN THE RIGHT-WING OR INDULGE SOME OF THEIR EXCESSES, HE PUSHED BACK AGAINST HIM, STOOD UP AGAINST THEM, HE MARCHED WITH CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS, HE REFUSED TO CONDEMN BLACK PROTESTERS ADMIT RACE RIOTS THAT WERE VERY UNPOPULAR WITH WHITE CONSERVATIVES.

IN FACT, AT THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION IN SAN FRANCISCO IN 1964 GEORGE ROMNEY REFUSED TO ENDORSE BARRY GOLDWATER, THE PARTY NOMINEE, AND OFFERED THIS THUNDERING INDICTMENT OF THE EXTREMIST FORCES HE BELIEVED WERE THEN TAKING OVER THE PARTY.

ROMNEY WAS AT THAT CONVENTION IS A YOUNG MAN, HE WAS A TEENAGER AND HE SAW THE ENTIRE CONVENTION STANDING TO APPLAUD BARRY GOLDWATER WHILE HIS DAD SAT QUIETLY AND REFUSED TO CLAP AND HE WAS MOVED BY THAT COURAGE .

YOU KNOW, AT VARIOUS POINTS OF MITT ROMNEY'S LIFE, I THINK HE HAS BEEN HAUNTED BY THAT MOMENT BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE HE WAS NOT FOLLOWING HIS DAD'S EXAMPLE.

HAS BEEN THESE LAST FEW YEARS THAT I THINK HE HAS BEEN REALLY TRYING TO LIVE UP TO US FATHER'S LEGACY AND I THINK THAT IS A BIG PART OF WHAT MOTIVATED HIM.

>> YOU DIVE PRETTY DEEPLY INTO HIS EARLIER LIFE BEFORE POLITICS AND POINT OUT HOW INFLUENTIAL , I GUESS MAYBE TWO DIFFERENT STRANDS THAT I SEE HELPING MOTIVATE A LOT OF HIS THINKING, ONE IS THE PROBLEM SOLVER BUSINESS CONSULTANT HE WAS WITH CAPITAL, MADE A TON OF MONEY DOING THAT.

THE OTHER RECURRING THEME IS HIS FAITH, THE GUIDANCE THAT IT HAS.

I WONDERED IF THEY ARE AT TENSION WITH EACH OTHER, COMPLEMENTARY .

>> THAT IS ONE OF THE CENTRAL TENSIONS OF MITT ROMNEY'S LIKE HIM YES AND HERE PRAGMATISM, MANAGEMENT CONSULTANT, HE WANTS TO LOOK AT THE DATA, CRUNCH THE NUMBERS, FIGURE OUT WHAT THE SOLUTION IS BASED ON THAT DATA.

THERE IS THIS OTHER SIDE OF HIM , THE CENTRAL PART OF HIS IDENTITY AND LIFE IS HIS FAITH WHICH IS NOT BASED ON DATA, IT IS BASED ON CONVICTION AND BELIEF AND I THINK AT VARIOUS POINTS OF HIS LIFE, HE HAS LEANED MORE TOWARD THE MANAGEMENT CONSULTANT SIDE OF HIS PERSONALITY , I THINK IT IS OFTEN HOW HE TALKED HIMSELF INTO TAKING POSITIONS HE DOES NOT TOTALLY AGREE WITH, IT IS HOW HE CONVINCES HIMSELF TO SKIRT THOSE ETHICAL LINES.

AT THE SAME TIME, HE HAS THIS NAGGING CONSCIENCE THROUGHOUT.

THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY CAN CLARIFY FOR ME LATE IN THE PROCESS OF WORKING ON THIS BOOK.

I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SQUARE THOSE TWO SIDES OF HIM AND UNDERSTAND THAT.

THERE WERE SOME MOMENTS IN HIS CAMPAIGN, HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS IN HIS CAREER, HOW DID YOU TALK YOURSELF INTO DOING THIS WHEN YOU KNEW IT WAS WRONG?

OR AT LEAST YOU HAD THE SENSE IT WAS WRONG .

HE SAID , WHAT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS , IF YOU DON'T HAVE, IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT QUESTIONS ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG , YOU DON'T HAVE TO RATIONALIZE ANYTHING BECAUSE YOU JUST DO WHAT IS NECESSARY TO WIN .

HE SAID I WAS ALWAYS CONCERNED WITH THESE QUESTIONS OF RIGHT AND WRONG, I DID NOT WANT TO SEE MYSELF AS SOCIOPATHIC WE ARE SAVING POWER.

HE WAS CONSTANTLY INVOLVED IN THESE SELF JUSTIFICATIONS AND TRYING TO SQUARE HAVING TO DO SOMETHING TO WIN AN ELECTION WITH KNOWING IT MIGHT NOT BE TOTALLY RIGHT .

HIS JOURNALS ARE FILLED WITH EXAMPLES OF HIM WRITING THROUGH THAT TENSION I THINK WHAT MAKES ROMNEY ENTRUSTING AS A SUBJECT FRANKLY, THIS IS TRUE OF ALMOST EVERYONE IN POLITICS.

EVERYONE IS CONSTANTLY LIVING IN THAT TENSION BETWEEN THEIR PRINCIPLES AND AMBITION AND WHAT MAKES ROMNEY UNIQUE REALLY ISN'T THAT HE GAVE INTO THE AMBITION AT TIMES , BECAUSE ALL OF THEM HAVE, IT IS THAT HE SEES THAT CLEARLY AND IS WILLING TO RECKON WITH IT .

I THINK THAT IS PART OF WHAT MADE WRITING THE BOOK SO INTERESTING, OFFICIAL IN REAL TIME GRAPPLING WITH HIS CONSCIENCE .

YOU DON'T GET TO SEE THAT VERY OFTEN.

I WONDER, YOU OPENED THE BOOK WITH THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION AND A CALL MITT ROMNEY GET FROM ANGUS KING, ESSENTIALLY RELAYING A WARNING TO MITCH McCONNELL, THERE'S A LOT OF CRAZY INTEL CHATTER , YOU REALLY NEED TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY.

I WONDER DURING THAT DAY OR MAYBE NOW AFTER, DOES MITT ROMNEY FEEL ANY SENSE OF HIS PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF HOW AND WHY THE PARTY GOT TO WHERE IT WAS?

>> YEAH.

WHEN HE LOOKS BACK ON HIS TWO PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS, WHAT HE SEES IS A STORY WHERE HE THOUGHT HE COULD INDULGE THE RIGHT-WING ELEMENTS OF THE GOP WITHOUT SUCCUMBING TO THEM .

IT WALK WHERE HE WOULD SPEAK AT THESE TEA PARTY RALLIES AND TRY TO TALK ABOUT DEFICIT REDUCTION BUT THE CROWD DID NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT DEFICIT REDUCTION, THEY WANTED TO HEAR HIM THROW RED MEAT AT THE AUDIENCE, TALK ABOUT GUNS AND KILLING TERRORISTS AND THE EVILS OF ABORTION.

HE FELT THAT PULL TO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANTED AND HE WOULD TRY TO PULL BACK A LITTLE BIT.

THIS CONSTANT DANCE THAT FRANKLY A LOT OF MAINSTREAM REPUBLICAN LEADERS LIKE HIM WERE DOING OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS.

WHAT HE DID NOT REALIZE, I THINK NOW REALIZES , IS THAT FLIRTATION WITH THE MORE EXTREME PORTION OF HIS PARTY HAVE CONSEQUENCES .

REPUBLICANS LIKE MITT ROMNEY THOUGHT THEY COULD HARNESS THE INJURY --ENERGY OF THE RIGHT-WING WITHOUT LETTING THEM TAKE OVER THE PARTY AND OVER THE LAST EIGHT YEARS, WHAT HAS BECOME CLEAR IS THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

EVENTUALLY THOSE FORCES WILL COMPLETE THEIR CONQUEST OF THE PARTY AND YOU ARE SORT OF LEFT WITH THE CHOICE OF EITHER DOING WHAT THEY SAY OR DISTANCING YOURSELF FROM THEM AND TAKING FROM THEM.

ROMNEY HAS CHOSEN THE LATTER OPTION.

I THINK HE SEES THERE ARE CLEARLY CONSEQUENCES FOR PLAYING FOOTSIE WITH THE EXTREMIST FORCES OF THE GOP.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED ROMNEY RECKONING, McKAY COPPINS, THANK YOU.