[upbeat music] ♪ [upbeat music continues] ♪ [upbeat music continues] ♪ [upbeat music continues] ♪ - Hello, and welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is artist Ron Garney.

Ron, welcome to "Comic Culture."

- Thank you very much for having me.

- Ron, you are a known for drawing some of the most iconic characters in comics.

So when you are given a book, like let's say, "Captain America" or the "Silver Surfer," how do you prepare for handling a character that has a history and yet still being able to put your own spin on it?

- Hmm, well, I mean, every artist, excuse me, every artist pretty much tries to put their own spin on it.

Usually I get a vision in my head right away of how I think the character should look, the body language, the feel.

For instance, when I did "Silver Surfer," I knew that I wanted him to have a very alien presence.

So thinking that, feeling that, I try to make him look cold and not as human as I could, even though he's in a humanoid-looking shell.

So it's all about the feel, the eyes, the movement, the stare, the body language, things like that.

So that's what I think about when I'm doing a character.

Like with the Hulk, it was just a raging mass, a fun green monster to draw.

So, I mean, everything is just, every muscle is delineated and flexing and bubbling.

Because when you think of the Hulk, you wanna transfer all of what he represents in the body language.

So that's pretty much where I go mentally with it.

With "Captain America," for instance, I always had his chin up, very majestic, always chose a lot of upshots to show a sort of regal nature to him, everything he stood for, patriotic, looking up at him with light behind him, always make it look like there are iconic moments with the character.

So basically you just try to feel what the character is.

There are characters that I've done where I didn't feel that right away, and it took me a bit to get into the groove of it.

"Skaar: Son of the Hulk," was one of them, for instance.

But "Daredevil" I had an image right away in my head how I wanted to approach it with color and how I did the pencil and ink to mimic sort of what Matt Murdoch would see through his blind eyes, because he uses a radar sense.

So everything he saw was sort of filtered through this grainy imagery.

And so I put that through all the art through the books, so we felt like we were Matt Murdoch, sort of looking through Daredevil's world.

So that's basically how I approached it.

- When we think about these characters, we're thinking, we're almost like we're watching a movie.

We don't necessarily think about the choices that go into why there are so many silhouettes in "Citizen Kane," or why there is this particular shot in a "Star Wars" film.

As somebody sitting at the drawing board, having this idea in your mind, are you inspired by films or classic images and paintings that sort of guide you in this direction?

Or is this something that through training in art school, perhaps this is how you've just learned to approach it?

- Well, probably both, but I am a huge fan of movies and cinema, and "Citizen Kane" being one of them, the way Wells chose his shots and the composition within the frames the foreground, the middle ground, the background, the lighting.

If you broke down his panels into abstract shapes, they're very interesting, like puzzle pieces that get put together to tell the story.

And so you take a lot of that, I'm a fan of Ansel Adams or photographers and old painters like the Wyatts, things like that.

So you get inspired from many different places.

And so that's basically how I approach it in the book, in the work.

Every panel to me is, I try to convey a sense of space and dynamism and composition as if it could exist on its own as a single piece but then integrated it to storytelling.

So that's why I found comics actually kind of fascinating early on, what drew me to it.

Because I didn't think I was gonna be doing this for a living, but I ended up getting drawn to it because I was a fan of movie making.

I dabbled with the idea of getting it to movies, but I was also a fan of the genre of superheroes.

And I'm a big fan of mythology, "The Iliad," "The Odyssey," and myths.

So here all that was rolled into one art form, and I do look at it as an art form.

It took a long time for people to wrap that idea around their head, that comic books are sort of an art form because they weren't looked at quite as seriously as other forms, but they really are, just for the fact that so much goes into making them.

And as a comic artist, I'm responsible for knowing so many of these different things like composition, storytelling, shot making, directing, acting.

I have to put all that into my work to make it work for the viewer, for the reader.

Because when a reader looks at the comic book, you have to draw them into the escape, and you're responsible for that.

So if I do a half-baked job at drawing a background, for instance, where the perspective is off, and I don't understand perspective, well, the reader opening the book gets thrown out of the escape because the human eye, even though it might not be trained to understand perspective itself, you can see that something's off there.

So it's my job as a storyteller, as an artist, as a draftsman, all those things, as a director, to make sure that they're drawn into the escape.

And so sometimes we do it better than other times, sometimes not everything is 100% victory, but we do the best we can at it.

And that's the fun for me though, and I get to go on these little adventures in the books and I'm doing a story right now with Keanu and Matt, "Genghis Khan."

So I get to go and research and delve into that history and look up the costuming and it's a lot of work, but it's an escape for me.

And because it is for me, I know it will be for the viewer.

- It's interesting because you are in fact, a scholar, you're putting yourself through this scholarship every month trying to find out the right period, how anyone would dress or what the style of glasses would be or something like that.

And I think back to the classics, the giants like John Buscema, who would be able to switch between "Conan" and go into "The Avengers" where they're fighting the Krees and the Skrulls and have this whole vocabulary that goes from sword and sorcery to high science fiction, to people sitting at a table eating dinner.

So when you're sitting at the drawing board and you get those quiet moments, how do you approach them versus the larger moments that might be a bit more explosive, but the quiet moments might have just as much impact, it's just up to you.

- I think the quieter moments really, well, it all depends on composition.

I think with the action packed moments, I tend to have a kinetic nature to my work anyway.

I'm very restless.

Well, you look at like that, for instance, the way it's rendered is very fast and kinetic.

And I think that comes through in my action sequences quite a bit.

I tend to throw bodies and I go to the extreme with the physicality of what's going on in the action moments.

As far as the quiet moments, that depends a lot on how far back you put the camera, how close, how far back, and the shadowing and the composition around it.

And that's where a lot of the body language, because obviously the quiet moments depend a lot on maybe what's being said in those quiet moments.

So you have to really try to put your feeling into it.

I mean, yes, in the action moments, you're like, oh, oh, you're just throwing bodies around and punching and things like that, it gets old after a while, but the quiet moments are, you really have to get into the emotion of it, I guess, and the mood.

and I think that's what was so good about "Citizen Kane," those moments, and how the composition worked to elicit a feeling, and I have to do that as well, - "Citizen Kane's" one of those movies that when you watch it, you can find something new every time.

And I taught a film appreciation class recently, and in watching it, I'm sure it's the very obvious thing that just took me this long to get, but everybody is telling their own story and nobody's actually telling the truth.

Everyone has their own point of view of Kane being the hero, Kane being the villain, Kane being the tragic figure.

- Or the little boy, yeah, deep down, 'cause of the ending.

- It's fascinating because we can always find something new if we're looking for it.

So as the artist, you get another, let's say it's another fight scene, it's Captain America versus the Red Skull, how do you keep that fresh?

I think John Romita Jr. said he always tries to draw something different every time he's drawing it.

And I think that's a big challenge.

So how do you keep it fresh for yourself so that way you are able to make the audience stay involved?

- Yeah, that's a tough question to answer because a lot of it depends on what I'm reading in the script.

I mean, the script, a lot of it's dependent on that I just finished some panels with Khan and his army invading a a Bulgar encampment and just destroying all these Bulgars to get to, they come across Berserker Unatei, that's his name in the book.

And yeah, I chose a shot that I, from left to right, that was a direct, no angle on it, just direct movement of bodies flying and swords and horses, so that I went through all this kinetic sort of stuff to get to the other end of the panel, into the next panel.

And sometimes I do things like that, I'll just play with the angle to get the point across.

Sometimes to me, doing the action shot is just the most direct punch in your face.

If you try to be too clever with it, it can fall short of the effect you're going for.

So on that particular panel, I just went straight in where you were just in the middle of it.

You'll see a spear coming in the foreground with nothing so attached to it, maybe a hand or something, just to show that you're right in the center of the action.

And that's pretty much how we approach the action shots.

But also, again, compositionally, I'll tend to use masses of figures in a pleasing shape even though there's a lot of figures, if you were to break it down abstractly, it would be a pleasing abstract shape of figures, all connected.

And I get some of that from, I look at even photos of ballet, for instance, and how the male and female forms connect to each other and the sculptors and how they do that.

There's some amazing figure dynamics going on there.

So I look at all these things to try to find something interesting in the figure.

I'm always trying to do different figures and not be too repetitive with them.

It's difficult because you can really get into a template over time, and I don't wanna do that, again, I'm a restless spirit.

So when you start doing that, it takes away from the adventure of the work I don't mean just the adventure of the story, but the adventure and the exploration of trying to figure out something new with a figure.

Oh, how can I make this hand come out differently than I normally do?

Or lemme choose a shot from underneath that I don't normally do, or, you know.

So all these things go into it as you're working it out.

And a lot of it depends on what you're reading.

- So this is the type of stuff I love talking to artists about, because I think the casual fan of comics is looking at the page and enjoying the story and not thinking about the storytelling aspect, the co-authorship that an artist has.

And I know a lot of trades come out now, and it's labeling the writer of the comic over the artist when it's a team.

As somebody who's getting a script and interpreting it for the actual audience to be able to read it, how do you sort of work within what the writer is looking for versus what you know is going to work best on the page?

- Well, I just do it.

Sometimes I'll ask a question or two.

I mean, I've had a couple of, I really have never had, up until I got to work with Keanu and Matt, did I really experience much of any sort of discord over what I had drawn versus what they wrote in the script.

The one thing I'm very cognizant of or conscious of doing, is making sure everything they put in there in the script is on the page to my best ability.

I mean, because I feel like it's a disservice to the story and to the writer himself.

I respect the writer, it's his craft, and they have to respect my craft.

And I feel like, I don't wanna do that disservice to the writer.

So I make sure the information is there.

I've seen artists who leave whole things out of scripts that they've gotten, and it's just not right.

And it's not fair to the craft, to the writer, and to yourself.

If you're gonna do this, if this is what you do, then you need to do what's required of you.

And don't try to cut corners because you just feel like it's not cool enough to draw those backgrounds.

You can't do that, you have to be true to the form and true to the writer and true to the craft.

That said, there are times when, if there are things, again, I went through that with the "Genghis Khan" story, you have a certain amount of space.

I have to remind the writer sometimes that you gotta remember when all is said and done, you're looking at a panel that's this big, and you're trying to get me to show an army tearing down tents in this much space.

So you have to find a way to elicit the suggestion of all of that, but condense it.

and it's like a sculpture again, you kind of cut it and carve it, and you take things out until you get the form, which tells the same story, but it's more three dimensional at that point, not a two dimensional sentence on a page.

And I explain it to every writer I've ever worked with, for the most part, that that's what's going to happen.

Most experienced writers understand that, and I try to make it better.

If I can make it a better version then they don't really have complaints.

Actually talking with Matt Kent, he said there things that he wrote that what he got back from me was different, but he said he liked mine just great, it was fine.

He liked it more in some circumstances.

As long as all the information is there and you get the point across to the best of your ability, usually they're pretty happy.

It's just the nature of the beast, things change in the translation.

- I know that you've mentioned Keanu twice, and I would be remiss if I didn't say you're speaking of Keanu Reeves, your co-creator of- - I speak about it, 'cause I'm working with him now, so it just comes up, I'm not name dropping or anything, but it's what I'm working on.

I've been working with him now for a few years, yeah.

- Keanu Reeves has a long career in film, and I'm sure that has sort of influenced his storytelling.

I mean, I'm sure he's thinking visually as he's writing a script or talking over plot points with you.

So how does that cinematic view that he may have either help or hinder you as the artist who's gotta interpret what is a billion dollar budget onto a 10 by 15 page?

- Well, he definitely, it was interesting, it was a seamless transition for him, going from film to comics, 'cause he is obviously got enough experience now in storytelling, visual storytelling.

So it was a natural sort of shift for him to go from films and to make a comic book, which fascinated him.

Because he did read them some growing up.

I don't think he was an avid comic fanatic or anything like that, but he definitely read them.

But all of his experience definitely shows through.

and the way it works is Matt is sort of his scribe and Keanu sort of gets up and acts the whole thing out, the whole story in his head.

Matt sort of takes it, scribes it and turns it into a workable script.

So again, there's been moments where I've had a disagreement or two about a couple things and Keanu and I sat down and I showed him what I was thinking.

And then there was one or two times where I agreed with them versus what I had put down, and then there was a couple times where it was the reverse.

So it's a work in process, always.

There's no secret, it's just hard work like anything else.

There's no mystery channel that's gonna get you there, it's just experience.

So in my experience, I've had over 35 years of it, just like he had, and Matt's had about 20 years of experience doing it.

So it works well, you know.

- Keanu Reeves is a household name.

And when he becomes associated with a property, it has a lot of, I guess, heat behind it.

So as an independent book, how does Keanu Reeves' name help you get that book into comic shops and into people's hands?

- You already just said it, he's a household name.

I mean, it's pretty obvious why I think he...

When we launched the project, it was a huge success with his name attached, anyway.

People are just interested.

And he was very, very involved, it wasn't like he was just branding it.

And actually when I first started, I almost didn't do it, 'cause I figured that's what it was going to be, it was just gonna be him branding something.

I was leaving Marvel 'cause I wanted to do other things, and so I wasn't sure I wanted to get immersed in something else for a long-term thing.

But then once I realized he was really in it, based on a Zoom call like we're having, clicked a button and there he was.

So I realized his commitment to it.

And so that definitely helped, and I think it showed in the product.

And then all the interviews he gave and his promoting the book and going on talk shows and everything else, and it became a huge smash hit.

If it wasn't him, it might not have had that kind of impact.

But definitely it was just an interesting thing because most movie stars might not be so immersed in it themselves.

He really, really wanted to be a part of it.

And I give him all the credit in the world for that.

- Comics are sort of the, like we talked about before, they were not a respected art form for a very long time.

And now we start to see, thanks to either the Marvel Cinematic Universe or Sam Raimi's "Spider-Man" films, comics are an endless source of ideas for Hollywood.

So when somebody from Hollywood kind of dips their toe into it, it's I guess kinda like redoing the bathwater, I don't know how this analogy would work, I'm not very good at analogies, Ron.

- I know what you mean.

You basically say, how do you reinterpret the same exact story, I think.

And well, yeah, I mean, I think Hollywood is a business ultimately.

And I think once the bean counters figured out, oh, we don't have to pay all kinds of writers, we've got all these stories right here.

I mean, it's all right there, the canon and the lore and everything is there for them to strip mine it.

I think they probably went a little overboard with the Marvel movies, they went too far.

What they don't learn is the fine art of less is more at times.

But they see the money come in and the money, the money, the money, the money, and once that takes over, then the art form kind of dissolves in it, and that's the mistake that's always made.

And so now the Marvel movies are becoming everything that was great from 2010 to 2020, and now they're kind of being looked at as passe.

Because they overdid it.

But it was a good decade's work, well, actually even longer.

I mean since "Spider-Man" was 20 something years ago and started out with "Blade" and "X-Men" movies, so a long run.

But I think they really started peaking in the mid-2010s, with "The Avengers: Infinity War" and all that.

I don't see it changing anytime soon.

The only thing I think might change is the variety of things, stories you can tell in a comic book.

Take "Unforgiven," for instance.

Like, you don't see westerns in comics anymore too much, but how great would it be to have an "Unforgiven" level story drawn in a comic book first or things like that.

And I think the companies though, have to be brave enough to spend the money, if they have it, to promote those kinds of other stories.

There are romance novels and westerns and action and sci-fi, and all kinds of different genres.

And I just think it's about being brave enough to explore all those different genres.

- When you talk to people, or at least when I speak to people, they generally think of comics as a genre, not as a medium to tell stories.

And there's a lot of different ways that you can use four colors, pen and ink on paper to tell a story of any type.

It could Shakespearean, it could be sci-fi, it could be two people eating dinner.

So as you are looking at books that you might want to pursue, I know a lot of writers will say, I ask the artist what they like to draw.

So when you're looking for a new project, are you looking for things that you like to draw or are you looking for things that are going to be a challenge that maybe you didn't think you'd like to draw?

- More the challenge for me, I know there are some artists who just like to draw.

I'm sort of in the middle of it.

For me, I'm more of a storyteller, I think.

I think the drawing is a means to an end for me, for myself.

There are guys who just love to draw anything and I like to draw, but I'm more of a deeper thinker, I think, than just, and I don't mean to diminish the act of drawing as something that's less than anything else.

You can get into a zen moment drawing just as you can with anything.

For myself, speaking of my personality, though, I am a deep thinker who likes to, again, restless, adventurous and the drawing is the means to an end in these stories to get there, like I said, I'm a fan of mythology.

And so for me, the end result, yes, I have to draw and it's a lot of work.

The drawing is a task, it really is.

But the end result is this story and this movie on a page that I've created, along with the writer.

And so that's the fun for me, that's really the impetus for me as far as why I am doing it.

So yeah, I mean, I'm more about the challenge of, oh, well here's an army of soldiers that are in Beijing or wherever, you know what I mean?

And how am I gonna approach that because it forces me to think visually and see it in my head, and it's always a stimulus.

Yeah, I can sit and draw, I can draw a cool car or things like that, and that's great, but for me it's the challenge of the exploration of this thing I have to achieve visually, that's gonna be a cinematic, cinematic thing.

And above all else, I think that's what I want my work to have in it, is a cinematic sort of feeling of achievement.

Not a TV show, but a film, you know what I mean?

Like, I have yet to do my "Godfather," which I would love to do, I would love to do a gangster thing, which I've not done.

Well, yeah, not really.

But I'm also somebody who loves period pieces so that, again, it's that exploration.

I love doing time travel stuff where I'm in the '40s or in the '30s, because there's always something about those periods that are reflective of that time and really, really stand out.

Like the '20s have art deco in the design of everything, and that's sort of what "Batman's" Gotham has a lot of that in it based on that art from back then.

So I just love all that stuff, and I love the gangster and the cars and the Tommy guns and there's just so many cool designs that reflect each period in history.

So I love getting into that.

And right now it's "Genghis Khan," it's all the warrior costumes and things like that, - Well, Ron, they are telling us that we are out of time, I want to thank you so much for taking time outta your day to talk with me.

- My pleasure, thank you for having me.

- And I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

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