>>> WELL, NOW LANGUAGE CAN BEAR INCREDIBLE WEIGHT.

ESPECIALLY IN TIMES OF CONFLICT.

OUR NEXT GUEST UNDERSTANDS THIS BETTER THAN MOST.

ROXANE GAY IS A BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND CONTRIBUTOR FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND HAS BEEN SHARING HER THOUGHTS ON A WIDE RANGE OF TOPICS SINCE 2014.

SHE RECENTLY PUBLISHED A NEW BOOK, "OPINIONS: A DECADES OF ARGUMENTS, CRITICISM, AND MINDING OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESS."

AND SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS THE POWER OF SPEECH.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

ROXANE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU STARTED YOUR PUBLIC OPINION JOURNEY ONLINE, AND WAS JUST WONDERING, DO YOU REMEMBER WHY YOU FIRST STARTED SHARING YOUR OPINIONS PUBLICLY ONLINE?

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT MOTIVATED YOU?

>> YEAH, IT STARTED A LONG TIME AGO, EVEN BEFORE SOCIAL MEDIA, I WOULD GO ON BULLETIN BOARDS IN THE OLD DAYS OF THE INTERNET, AND IT WAS GREAT TO CONNECT WITH PEOPLE.

THE INTERNET WAS TRULY A MARVEL.

YOU COULD BE SITTING IN A DORM ROOM IN CONNECTICUT AND YOU COULD TALK TO SOMEONE WHO WAS LIKE A HAM RADIO ENTHUSIAST IN PHOENIX, OR IN SOME OTHER COUNTRY.

AND THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO ME.

AND WHEN YOU FOUND AN AFFINITY GROUP WITH PEOPLE THAT CARED ABOUT THE SAME KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU DID, YOU COULD HAVE ALL KINDS OF INTERESTING NICHE CONVERSATIOS ONLINE.

SO, IT STARTED THERE, FOR SURE.

>> AND IT WAS -- ALL THE BAD STUFF HADN'T STARTED YET.

>> THIS WAS WELL BEFORE THE BAD STUFF.

AND IT'S NOT TO SAY IT WAS A PARADISE.

I MEAN, THERE ARE ALWAYS STRANGE PEOPLE AND, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY NO SHORTAGE OF PREDATORS, BUT IT WASN'T THE SORT OF TOXIC MEASMA THAT SOCIAL MEDIA HAS BECOME NOW.

AND I DEFINITELY MISS THOSE DAYS.

I THINK MOST OF US DO.

>> WELL, YOU WRITE ACROSS A NUMBER OF PLATFORMS, AND YOU WRITE ABOUT ACTIVISM, RACE, GENDER, WORK/LIFE ISSUES, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, INTERESTING.

BUT ONE THING THAT I NOTICE COMES UP A LOT IS SPEECH ITSELF, AND THE WAY SPEECH WORKS UNTIL, RIGHT NOW.

WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT STUDENT ACTIVISM OR JOKES BY COMEDIANS OR RACIST HATE SPEECH.

YOU'RE ASKING PEOPLE TO KIND OF MAKE DISTINCTIONS AMONG DIFFERENT KINDS OF SPEECH.

I WAS JUST WONDERING WHY YOU THINK THAT COMES UP A LOT OR COMES UP AS MUCH AS IT DOES.

>> PRIMARILY, WE'RE DEALING WITH THIS SORT OF OPEN-AIR BAZAAR OF IDEAS ON THE INTERNET, WHICH MEANS THAT ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE WITH ALL KINDS OF PERSPECTIVES ARE COMING TO THE TABLE, AND SOME OF THOSE PERSPECTIVES ARE DANGEROUS.

AND, OF COURSE, WHEN YOU BELIEVE IN FREEDOM OF SPEECH, AS I DO, IT MEANS THAT THOSE KINDS OF SPEECH ARE GOING TO BE AROUND, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE HAVE TO TOLERATE THEM IN THE SPACES THAT WE INHABIT.

AND SO, I THINK QUITE A LOT ABOUT HOW WE CARE FOR THE SPACES THAT WE ARE APART OF.

AND WHAT KINDS OF LIMITS AND GUARDRAILS WE'RE GOING TO PUT AROUND THOSE SPACES TO PROTECT THEM.

NOT TO MAKE THEM SAFE, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK SAFETY EXISTS, BUT TO CREATE PLACES WHERE YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH BIGOTRY IN WAYS THAT ARE JUST UNPRODUCTIVE.

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I FIND REALLY INTERESTING, THOUGH, IS THAT YOU ARE CONSTANTLY ASKING PEOPLE TO THINK WITH A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPLEXITY, IF I CAN PUT IT THAT WAY.

I'M THINKING ABOUT ONE OF THE PIECES IN THE COLLECTION, THE SEDUCTION OF SAFETY ON CAMPUS AND BEYOND, WHICH WAS IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND IT TALKS ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CENSORSHIP AND CONSEQUENCES.

YOU SAID, I BELIEVE THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS SACRED.

THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH DOES NOT GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF CONSEQUENCE.

YOU CAN SPEAK YOUR MIND, BUT YOU CAN BE SHUNNED.

YOU CAN BE CRITICIZED, YOU CAN LOSE YOUR JOB.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH DOES NOT EXIST IN A VACUUM.

BUT YOU ALSO GO ON TO SAY THAT EVERY CONSEQUENCE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE SAME, AND THAT YOU CALL ON PEOPLE TO SORT OF MAKE SOME DISTINCTIONS, AND I WAS -- YOU KNOW, THIS SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING THAT -- THAT YOU'VE RETURNED TO, AND I'M JUST INTERESTED IN WHY YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO, FOR ONE THING.

WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO YOU, AND WHY YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE MISUNDERSTAND THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

THEY THINK THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH MEANS THE RIGHT TO PUBLISH A BOOK, TO BE ON A PRIVATE SOCIAL MEDIA NETWORK SAYING ANY OLD THING.

THAT'S NOT AT ALL WHAT FREE SPEECH MEANS.

IT MEANS YOU WON'T BE ARRESTED BY THE GOVERNMENT FOR WHAT YOU SAY.

AND SO, WE HAVE TO BRING NUANCE TO THESE SUBJECTS, BECAUSE NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, BUT THE CONSEQUENCES FOR FREE SPEECH, THERE SHOULD BE A RANGE OF CONSEQUENCES.

THE IDEA THAT EVERYONE WHO MISSTEPS, AND I'M NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT STAYING SOMETHING YOU DISAGREE WITH, I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ACTUAL HATE SPEECH, DEATH THREATS, RAPE THREATS AND THE LIKE, YOU KNOW, THERE SHOULD BE CONSEQUENCES, BUT WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT, WHAT IS THE APPROPRIATE CONSEQUENCE FOR WHATEVER THE THING IS, INSTEAD OF ASSUMING THAT WE CAN JUST SORT OF TAKE A BROAD HAMMER TO A SINGULAR NAIL.

THAT'S NOT REALLY HOW IT WORKS.

AND FOR WHATEVER REASON, WE HAVE NOT GOTTEN THERE YET IN TERMS OF PUBLIC DISCOURSE, IN TERMS OF FIGURING OUT, HOW DO WE MANAGE SCALE AND PROPORTION?

WE JUST -- WE'RE NOT THERE YET.

>> I WAS CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE MOMENT THAT WE ARE IN NOW, WHERE WE'RE FINDING COLLEGE STUDENTS, LAW STUDENTS, HAVING JOB OFFERS WITHDRAWN BECAUSE THEY PARTICIPATED IN DEMONSTRATIONS THAT SOME PEOPLE FELT, OR WROTE A LETTER, OR SIGNED A LETTER, THAT SOME PEOPLE WERE OFFENDED BY.

>> I THINK IT'S A PROBLEM.

I THINK IT'S A REAL -- I THINK IT'S REALLY STRAINING THE SORT OF BOUNDARIES THAT WE'RE GOING TO PUNISH COLLEGE STUDENTS FOR STANDING UP FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN.

NOW, IF THOSE COLLEGE STUDENTS ARE BEHAVING IN WAYS THAT ARE ANTI-SEMITIC, ISLAMISLAMOPHOBIC, PROBABLY DON'T DESERVE A JOB AT THE END OF THAT JOURNEY.

BUT THAT'S REALLY NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

IN MANY INSTANCES, WE'RE SEEING COLLEGE STUDENTS, RIGHT OR WRONG, ARE ADVOCAING FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN, AND WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN, WE SHOULD ALL BELIEVE IN.

WHICH IS AN END TO ATROCITY, A CEASE-FIRE.

AND SO, WHAT KIND OF CONDITION ARE WE IN AS A PEOPLE IF WE THINK THAT'S A BRIDGE TOO FAR?

YOU KNOW?

I THINK WE REALLY SORT OF HAVE TO HAVE THAT KIND OF CHECK-IN WITH OURSELVES, BECAUSE I THINK SOME MORAL COMPASSES ARE WILDLY OFF.

>> I WANTED TO GO BACK FOR A SECOND AND ASK ABOUT YOU, LIKE, DO YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME SOMETHING YOU WROTE GOT ATTENTION?

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS THAT YOU WROTE AND -- TELL ME ABOUT IT.

>> IT WAS AN ESSAY THAT'S CALLED "THE CARELESS LANGUAGE OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE."

A YOUNG GIRL IN CLEVELAND, TEXAS, HAD BEEN GANG RAPED, AND IT WAS A HORRIFIC CRIME, AND THE TOWN WAS REELING, AND I WAS JUST LIKE, WAIT A MINUTE, WHAT?

THE TOWN?

I THINK THE CHILD WHO DEALT WITH, LIKE, 20, 30 ASSAILANTS, I THINK PERHAPS SHE WAS REELING A BIT MORE THAN THE TOWN.

AND I WAS JUST INCENSED.

AND SO, I WROTE THIS ESSAY IN A MATTER OF HOURS, AND IT WAS PUBLISHED AND IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PIECES I WROTE THAT GAINED A SIGNIFICANT AUDIENCE, IT WAS PUBLISHED IN A MAGAZINE CALLED "THE RUMPUS."

AND "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ENDED UP REREPORTING THE STORY, AND PUTTING THE FOCUS MORE APPROPRIATELY WHERE IT BELONGED.

ON THE YOUNG GIRL AND THIS SORT OF STAGGERING DETAILS OF THIS CRIME.

AND SO THAT WAS AMAZING TO ME, THAT I COULD WRITE SOMETHING FROM, LIKE, MY LITTLE OLD LIFE, AND I WAS IN GRADUATE SCHOOL AT THE TIME GETTING MY Ph.D IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE, AND STILL, MY WORDS REACHED PEOPLE WELL BEYOND MY IMMEDIATE SPHERE.

IT WAS ABSOLUTELY UNEXPECTED.

AND WHEN THE PIECE FOUND AN AUDIENCE, AND IT DID CONTRIBUTE TO AN ONGOING CONVERSATION ABOUT SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND HOW WE WRITE ABOUT IT, HOW WE TALK ABOUT IT, HOW WE DEPICT IT IN FILM AND TELEVISION, YOU KNOW, THAT FELT BITTERSWEET, IN THAT I WAS SORRY THAT THIS THING HAD HAPPENED TO THIS CHILD, THAT REQUIRED THIS WRITING, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I WAS GLAD THAT WE COULD AT LEAST PERHAPS HAVE A BETTER CONVERSATION ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH WE TALK ABOUT SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT WHETTED YOUR APPETITE TO TRY TO PERSUADE OR INFLUENCE OTHER PEOPLE THROUGH YOUR WRITING?

THE IMPRESSION I GOT IS THAT SOME OF YOUR WRITING STARTED OUT AS BEING FOR YOU, AND A LOT IS JUST FOR THEM.

AND I'M WONDERING, IS THERE -- IS THERE A POINT IN WHICH YOU WRITE FOR A PURPOSE OTHER THAN TO CLARIFY YOUR OWN THINKING?

>> I PRIMARILY STILL WRITE FOR MYSELF.

AND THAT OTHER PEOPLE FIND WAYS TO CONNECT WITH THE WORK IS AN AMEND ADDED BONUS, HONESTLY.

EVERY TIME I WRITE SOMETHING AND I SEND IT TO AN EDITOR, I TELL MYSELF, GIRL, DON'T WORRY, NO ONE IS GOING TO READ IT.

IT IS INCREASINGLY MORE DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE THAT, SOMETHING OF AN AUDIENCE FOR MY WORK NOW, BUT TELLING MYSELF, NO ONE'S GOING TO READ IT IS WHAT ALLOWS ME TO SAY WHAT I REALLY WANT TO SAY ON THE PAGE FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

AND, YOU KNOW, DID IT WHET MY APPETITE?

I MEAN, THERE IS SOMETHING WONDERFUL ABOUT BEING READ, AND I THINK ANY WRITER WOULD ADMIT THAT, IF THEY'RE BEING HONEST.

YES, YOU WRITE FOR YOURSELF, BUT WHEN WHAT YOU WRITE FOR YOURSELF MANAGES TO REACH OTHER PEOPLE, IT FEELS GREAT, AND I -- I CAN'T PRETEND THAT IT DOESN'T.

IT'S WONDERFUL TO BE AT A PLACE IN MY CAREER WHERE I KNOW THAT MY WORK WILL BE READ.

MAYBE NOT BY MILLIONS, IT WILL BE READ BY AT LEAST, LIKE, ONE PERSON, AND THAT -- THAT IS GREAT.

AND I THINK IT MAKES YOU FEEL LESS ALONE IN THE WORLD.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT CRACKED ME UP IS YOU SAID, YOU ACTUALLY DON'T HAVE AS MANY OPINIONS AS PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE, AND PEOPLE SOMETIMES USE YOU LIKE AN OPINION VENDING MACHINE.

IS IT LIKE AT PARTIES WHERE, LIKE, PEOPLE WOULD, YOU KNOW, CORNER A DOCTOR AND WANT PEOPLE TO LOOK AT THEIR RASH, I MEAN, IS IT -- IS IT LIKE THAT, LIKE, YOU GO TO A PARTY -- >> IT'S EXACTLY LIKE THAT.

MOST WRITERS, YOU GET TO BE ANONYMOUS.

NOBODY'S EVER GOING TO KNOW YOU'RE WALKING DOWN THE STREET, BUT I AM TALL, I AM FAT, I HAVE TATTOOS, LIKE, I'M PRETTY RECOGNIZABLE TO PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY READ MY WORK, SO, I GET STOPPED QUITE A LOT.

AND WHEN I AM, PEOPLE TEND TO SAY, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT -- AND IT COULD BE ANYTHING FROM THE NEWS "HOUSEWIVES" TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA, AND, YOU KNOW, OCTOBER 7th.

SOMEONE'S RECENT NEWS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT.

IT'S A RANGE OF THINGS.

AND I UNDERSTAND WHERE THAT INSTINCT COMES FROM, BUT SOMETIMES I HONESTLY DON'T HAVE AN OPINION OR I DON'T HAVE AN OPINION THAT I'M GOING TO SHARE WITH PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT MY FAMILY.

AND OTHER TIMES, IT'S JUST LIKE, OH, MAN, I DON'T KNOW, I'M JUST TRYING TO WALK INTO THIS OPERA RIGHT NOW, AND SIT FOR THREE HOURS LISTENING TO PEOPLE SING.

I JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU, SO, IT'S A MIXED BAG.

>> YOU SAY YOU KNOW WHERE THAT INSTINCT COMINGS FROM.

WHERE DO YOU THINK IT COMES FROM?

IT'S INTERESTING, ON THE ONE HAND, PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINION, ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE LIKE, WHO THE HELL ASKED YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THERE IS ALWAYS THAT, AND I'M JUST WONDERING, WHAT IS IT DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE SEEKING IN SEEKING YOU OUT?

>> I THINK A LOT OF TIMES, PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW WHAT THEY THINK IS ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

THEY WANT TO BE AFFIRMED IN THEIR POINT OF VIEW, OR, THEY LOOK TO MY WORK OR TO THE WORK OF OTHER WRITERS LIKE ME TO HELP THEM FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO THINK.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S JUST, AGAIN, THAT SENSE OF CONNECTION, THAT SENSE OF GUIDANCE, AND THEY MAY NOT AGREE WITH ME, BUT WHAT I WRITE OFTENTIMES PEOPLE TELL ME HELPS THEM ARRIVE TO WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

YOU KNOW, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, SO, I THINK A LOT OF IT COMES FROM THAT, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S MALICIOUS.

I ACTUALLY KNOW FOR A FACT THAT IT'S NOT, MOST OF THE TIME, MALICIOUS, UNLESS, LIKE, PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO, LIKE, CATCH ME IN SOMETHING, LIKE, OH, YOU SAID SOMETHING ELSE THE OTHER DAY.

YEAH, PROBABLY, I'M HUMAN.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT'S OFFERED IN GOOD FAITH, I TRY TO BE AS PATIENT AS POSSIBLE.

>> YOU ALSO WROTE ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE BEING KILLED.

>> YEAH.

>> SYSTEMIC RACISM, BLACK PEOPLE BEING KILLED BY THE POLICE, OR BY, YOU KNOW, VIGILANTES, AND YOU'VE WRITTEN THAT YOU'RE TIRED OF IT.

>> UH-HUH.

>> YOU'RE TIRED OF WRITING ABOUT IT.

YOU WROTE IN THE WAKE OF GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER, I WRITE SIMILAR THINGS ABOUT DIFFERENT BLACK LIVES LOST OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

I TELL MYSELF, I AM DONE WITH THIS SUBJECT.

THEN SOMETHING SO HORRIFIC HAPPENS THAT I KNOW I MUST SAY SOMETHING, EVEN THOUGH I KNOW THAT THE PEOPLE WHO TRULY NEED TO BE MOVED ARE IMMOVABLE.

SO, SAY MORE, LIKE, WHY?

IF THE IDEA IS TO MOVE PEOPLE, WHY KEEP WRITING ABOUT SOMETHING WHEN YOU FEEL LIKE THEY'RE NOT LISTENING?

IS IT FOR YOU?

WHO IS IT FOR?

>> I THINK IT'S OFTEN FOR ME, BECAUSE I DO -- WITH EVERY NEW INSTANCE OF POLICE BRUTALITY OR EXTRAJUDICIAL MURDER THAT WE LEARN ABOUT, EVERY GRAVE INJUSTICE I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT TIME AND TIME AGAIN, I JUST THINK, AGAIN?

AND CLEARLY WORDS ARE NOT GOING TO STOP THIS.

I KNOW THAT A LOT OF US WHO WRITE BELIEVE THAT SORT OF, WE'RE GOING TO ENGENDER ENOUGH EMPATHY THROUGH THE WRITTEN WORD TO MAKE EVERYTHING BETTER, BUT THAT'S CLEARLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

BUT DOES THAT MEAN WE DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL?

I MEAN, THAT'S WHERE I STRUGGLE.

LIKE, SILENCE IS NOT GOING TO MAKE THE PROBLEM BETTER, EITHER.

AND SO, THERE ARE THESE INSTANCES, LIKE, WITH GEORGE FLOYD, WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE THIS MAN, DEREK CHAUVIN, STARING AT THE CAMERA FOR 8:44, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, KNOWING WHAT HE WAS DOING, KNOWING THAT PEOPLE WERE WATCHING HIM, AND THINKING THAT HE COULD CONTINUE HIS SORT OF DEATH SPIRAL WITH IMPUNITY.

AND, YOU KNOW, EACH SORT OF NEW HORRIFIC CASE IS SO EXTRA HORRIFIC, IT'S LIKE, HOW COULD I NOT SAY SOMETHING?

AND SO, IT'S THIS ONGOING DILEMMA.

BUT I ALSO RECOGNIZE WHAT A LUXURY IT IS TO BE EXHAUSTED WHEN REALLY, YOU CAN'T.

I MEAN, YOU CAN FEEL THAT WAY, BUT THEN YOU HAVE TO MOVE ON FROM THAT, BECAUSE SILENCE, AS I SAID, ISN'T GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, I DON'T KNOW THAT WRITING IS GOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, BUT AT LEAST WHEN WE TALK ABOUT IT, WHEN WE BEAR WITNESS, WE MAKE CLEAR, THIS IS NOT OKAY, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, THIS MAN LOST HIS LIFE, AND THEN, OF COURSE, PEOPLE WITHIN LIKE, HE DID THIS, THAT -- I DON'T CARE.

THE PENANCEF COUNTERFEIT MONEY OR WHATEVER IS NOT DEATH.

ESPECIALLY NOT IN MINNESOTA, OKAY?

LIKE, LET'S JUST GET SOME PERSPECTIVE HERE.

LET'S REALLY FOCUS ON WHAT MATTERS, WHICH IS THAT NO ONE SHOULD TAKE ANYONE ELSE'S LIFE.

AND CERTAINLY NO ONE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT SHOULD BE DOING THAT.

AND WE SHOULD BE SAFE.

WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO WALK DOWN THE STREET, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRIVE, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HOLD A PACKAGE OF SKITTLES IN OUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD WITHOUT BEING KILLED BY SOMEONE.

WHO THINKS THAT THEY'RE DOING THE WORLD A FAMOUS BY GETTING RID OF ONE MORE BLACK PERSON.

>> SO, BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THIS ONE THING, EVERYBODY ASKS, YOU KNOW I'M GOING TO ASK.

IS THERE ANYTHING YOU WERE JUST WRONG ABOUT?

>> NO.

AND THE THING IS, IT'S NOT THAT I WAS WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING, WHAT I SAY IS, AND THIS IS WHAT I TRULY FEEL, I DID THE BEST I COULD WITH THE SKILLS AND THE KNOWLEDGE I HAD AT THE TIME.

AND IF ANYTHING, WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THATTAL LOT OF MY OPINIONS HAVE EVOLVED.

THEY HAVE GOTTEN MORE SOPHISTICATED, MORE PROGRESSIVE.

WHERE TEN YEARS AGO, I WOULD HAVE PROBABLY SAID, LIKE, LET'S FIND A WAY TO REFORM THE POLICE, NOW I'M LIKE, HMM, PRETTY SURE THEY CAN'T BE REFORMED.

AND WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT SOMETHING ELSE, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT SOMETHING ELSE IS, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT BETTER WAY OF LAW ENFORCEMENT IS, BUT YOU CANNOT REFORM SOMETHING THAT IS SOER REPAIR BLY BROKEN.

SO, IT'S MORE THAT I'VE JUST LEARNED MORE, AND HOPEFULLY GOTTEN MORE NUANCED IN MY THINKING, BUT -- THE REASON IT'S EASY TO SAY NO, I HAVEN'T GOTTEN ANY WRONG, IS BECAUSE SO MUCH OF WHAT I BELIEVE IS JUST, WOMEN ARE PEOPLE.

WE SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM.

POLICE BRUTALITY AND EXTRAJUDICIAL MURDER ARE BAD.

LIKE, THESE ARE NOT REALLY THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE DEBATING, EVEN THOUGH CLEARLY WE ARE DEBATING THESE THINGS.

SO -- IT'S REALLY THAT.

>> ROXANE GAY, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.