>>> AS AMERICA'S MAYOR HE HELPED BRING THE COUNTRY TOGETHER.

NOW HE HAS PLENTY TO SAY ABOUT THE CURRENT CRISIS.

THIS WEEK ON "FIRING LINE."

NEW YORK CITY MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI ON SEPTEMBER 11th, 2001.

>> WE WILL GET THROUGH IT.

>> HIS NEXT BID.

>> I NEED YOUR SUPPORT AND I WANT YOUR SUPPORT AND I WILL FIGHT FOR IT.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> HE IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY NOW.

>> THE PRESIDENT HAS DONE A SUE SUPERB JOB.

>> THIS IS A NEW VIRUS.

>> Reporter: AND COMPETING VISIONS WHAT IS BEST FOR AMERICA.

>> THE TESTING IS NOT GOING TO BE A PROBLEM AT ALL.

>> TESTING HAS BEEN A BIG PROBLEM.

>> WHAT DOES MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI SAY NOW?

>> "FIRING LINE" WITH MARGARET HOOVER IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING.

>>> MAYOR RUDY GIULIANI, WELCOME BACK TO "FIRING LINE."

NOW, BEFORE WE GET STARTED, I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE HAVE MET BEFORE.

>> YES.

>> I MOVED TO NEW YORK CITY TO WORK FOR YOU WHEN YOU WERE FIRST CONTEMPLATING A PRESIDENTIAL BID IN 2006.

I LATER MARRIED YOUR LONG TIME CHIEF SPEECH WRITER.

ONE UNDEPABLE LASTING LEGACY OF YOUR PRESIDENTIAL AMBITION.

>> ONE OF THE BETTER THINGS I DID.

>> ONE OF THE LASTING LEGACY OF YOUR PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IS MY MARRIAGE AND TWO CHILDREN.

>> THERE AREN'T TOO MANY OTHERS.

>> LET'S GET TO COVID-19.

THERE ARE 160,000 CASES OF COVID IN NEW YORK CITY AND FOUR TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN NEW YORK CITY OF COVID-19 THAN IN THE TERRORIST ATTACKS OF 9/11.

NOW, YOU KNOW, AS MUCH AS ANYBODY, ABOUT THE SPIRIT OF NEW YORKERS AND I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU -- HOW DO YOU THINK THAT NEW YORK CITY WILL BE ABLE TO OVERCOME THIS PANDEMIC?

>> NEW YORK CITY WILL OVERCOME IT.

BUT IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN SEPTEMBER 11 BECAUSE THIS IS A DIFFERENT KIND OF ATTACK.

SEPTEMBER 11 I HAD THE BENEFIT OF, IN FOUR OR FIVE DAYS, WE COULD CONTAIN WHAT IT HOB DONE TO GROUND ZERO AND THEN WE COULD BRING BROADWAY BACK AND BRING BASEBALL BACK AND BRING RESTAURANTS BACK, PUT THE KIDS BACK IN SCHOOL.

RESPONSIBLY, YOU CAN'T DO THAT NOW.

AND WHEN YOU DO DO IT, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE DO IT CAREFULLY, SO I THINK THERE'S A WORRY IN PEOPLE'S MIND, WILL WE RETURN TO NORMAL?

I THINK WE WERE ABLE TO ESTABLISH THAT THOUGHT IN PEOPLE'S HEADS ABOUT SEPTEMBER 11th, 10, 12, 15 DAYS LATER.

I SORT OF SEE THIS AS THE FIRST WOULD WEEKS OF SEPTEMBER 11, XEP EXTENDED OUT UNTIL WE GET BACK TO NORMAL AND IT'S DOING A LOT OF DAMAGE TO US.

I'M NOT SURE ECONOMIC -- WE CAN COUNT THAT.

A LOT OF EMOTIONALLY DAMAGE I'M NOT SURE WE UNDERSTAND YET.

>> FOR PEOPLE MAYBE LESS AWARE OF YOUR ROLE AS MAYOR AND DEAL WITH CRISES.

SOMETHING I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, YOU'VE BECOME A BIT OF A PHOTOGRAPHER.

AS THE CITY HAS BEEN SHUT DOWN, YOU HAVE BEEN IN A POSITION TO BE PHOTOGRAPHING AN EMPTY CITY.

LET'S LOOK AT THIS PICTURE.

IT'S A PHOTO YOU TOOK OF FIFTH AVENUE ON MARCH 21st.

YOU WROTE FIFTH AVENUE AT 4:30 P.M. ON SATURDAY LOOKS ABANDON BUT MY NEW YORKERS ARE DOING THEIR PART TO FLATTEN THE CURVE.

GOD BLESS THEM AND PROTECT US ALL.

>> I FEEL LIKE I'M IN A MOVIE SET AND IT FEELS SURREAL.

I FEEL LIKE I'M IN A MOVIE WHERE THE WORLD ENDED.

THERE WERE A FEW SURVIVORS LEFT AND NOW I'M WALKING AROUND THE CITY TRYING TO FIND THEM.

I'VE EVEN HAD KIND OF A DREAM LIKE THAT.

I CANNOT FATHOM THE CITY LIKE THIS.

IT'S MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR ME THAN THOUGHT IT WOULD BE.

>> WHEN YOU FIRST CAME TO OFFICE IN 1994, YOU CONFRONTED A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS IN THE FORM OF AN EMERGING NUMBER OF TUBERCULOSIS CASES THAT WERE RISING BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN GIVEN PRESCRIPTIONS WERE NOT COMPLETING THE COURSE OF THE MEDICATION AND THEY WERE RETURNING HOME NOT STAYING ON THE MEDICATION AND YOU WERE SEEING OUTBREAKS OF TUBERCULOSIS AROUND THE CITY.

DO YOU SEE SIMILARITIES HOW YOU STARTED TO THINK ABOUT TUBERCULOSIS AND STEMMING THE OUTBREAKS WITH THE COVID-19 OUTBREAK?

>> THAT CONVINCED ME THAT, NUMBER ONE, GOVERNMENT DID HAVE A ROLE THAT COULD BE USEFUL.

I'M GENERALLY, YOU KNOW, A CONSERVATIVE AND MY VIEW IS LET MEDICINE HANDLE IT.

BUT MEDICINE CAN'T ORGANIZE A CITY.

ONLY THE CITY CAN ORGANIZE THE CITY.

AND, NUMBER TWO, IT SAID TO ME THAT PEOPLE WILL LISTEN IF YOU APPROACH THEM REASONABLY.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES YOU DEAL WITH AS A MAYOR WHEN IT COMES TO PUBLIC HEALTH YOU HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT PRIORITIZE FEDERAL HEALTH REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE IMMIGRATION FEDERAL POLICY IS.

FOR EXAMPLE IF UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS ARE TOO AFRAID TO AVAIL THEMSELVES OF THE CITY'S PUBLIC HOSPITALS OR FRANKLY PUBLIC SAFETY, THEY WON'T USE THE PUBLIC HOSPITALS.

>> 100% CORRECT, MARGARET.

>> YOU SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT WOULD PROTECT UNAUTHORIZED IMMIGRANTS IN NEW YORK CITY AND HERE IS WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT IT.

TAKE A LOOK.

>> IT BASICALLY SAYS IF THEY SEEK TO USE CITY SERVICES THAT ARE CRITICAL TO THEIR HEALTH AND SAFETY AND CRITICAL TO THEIR HEALTH AND SAFETY OF OTHER PEOPLE, THEN THEIR NAMES WILL NOT BE -- IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION SERVICE.

>> IN LIGHT OF COVID-19, DOESN'T WHAT YOU SAID IN THE 1990s STILL REMAIN RELEVANT?

>> SURE.

THE LOGIC REMAINS RELEVANT AND THE REALITY OF IT, TO LET ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ALONE TO IGNORE THEM OR ROUND THEM UP IN LARGE NUMBERS WITHOUT REGARD TO THE CONTACT THIS TERRIBLY CONTAGIOUS DISEASE IS RUNNING AROUND WILL MAKE THE SITUATION WORSE FOR THEM BUT IT COULD MAKE IT WORSE FOR YOU.

I NEVER CONSIDER A SANCTUARY CITY.

IF YOU WERE A CRIMINAL I'D TURN YOU OVER TO THE IMMIGRATION SERVICE BUT OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF YOUR HEART, SOMEBODY JUST GOT KNIFED AND THEY ARE ILLEGAL, YOU WON'T SAY GO DIE ON THE STREET CORNER.

I MEAN, WHAT KIND OF A COUNTRY ARE WE IF WE DO THAT?

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU THEN.

PRESIDENT TRUMP, JUST THIS WEEK, SAID HE WOULD TIE COVID FUNDING FOR STATES TO SANCTUARY CITY POLICY.

[ INAUDIBLE ] IN TERMS OF PUBLIC HEALTH IF YOU'RE A MAYOR, IS THAT -- IS THAT HELPFUL?

DOES THAT MAKE IT LESS -- MORE DIFFICULT FOR IMMIGRANTS TO REPORT -- TO TURN -- >> AS OFTEN IS THE CASE, YOU KNOW, THE DEVIL'S IN THE DETAILS.

I THINK BOTH SIDES ARGUE AN EXTREMIST.

THEN YOU LOOK AT -- >> TIE COVID FUNDING TO SANCTUARY CITY POLICY?

>> NO.

OR YOU SHOULD TIE IT TO A SANCTUARY CITY POLICY THAT IS A SENSIBLE SANCTUARY CITY POLICY.

REMEMBER, IF YOU TREAT THEM INHUMANELY IT WILL HAVE REPERCUSSIONS IN THEIR BEHAVIOR AND IT WILL HURT YOU.

>> THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AS THEY RELATE TO THE PRESIDENT OR TO POLITICS HAVE CERTAIN CORE THINGS THAT THEY ARE INTERESTED IN.

>> THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU HAVE BEEN ON "FIRING LINE."

YOU WERE ALSO ON THE ORIGINAL INCARNATION OF THE PROGRAM WITH WILLIAM BUCKLEY JR.

IN 1999 WHEN YOU WERE MAYOR.

>> THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, THEY ARE INTERESTED IN THE ECONOMY, THEY ARE INTERESTED IN JOBS.

THEY BECOME INTERESTED IN FOREIGN POLICY ONLY WHEN THERE IS AN OVERRIDING THREAT OR OVERRIDING CONCERN.

THERE ARE THREATS BUT THEY ARE NOT SEEN AS OVERRIDING THREATS.

THE WHOLE ISSUE OF TERRORISM IS NOT ONE THAT ENGAGES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I FIND REMARKABLE ABOUT THAT CLIP IS THAT THE VIDEO, THAT WAS TWO YEARS BEFORE 9/11.

YOU ACTUALLY RAISED THE ISSUE OF TERRORISM AS A THREAT.

WAS TERRORISM, MR. MAYOR, SOMETHING THAT WAS FRONT OF MIND FOR YOU?

>> YES.

>> EVEN IN -- >> IT WAS FOR ME BUT A SPECIAL REASON FOR THAT.

REMEMBER WHEN I RAN, I RAN IN 1993 IN THE EARLY PART OF 1993, JANUARY, THERE WAS AN ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER BY A SPECIFIC GROUP OF ISLAMIC EXTREMIST TERRORISTS FROM A MOSQUE IN NEW JERSEY AND THEIR INTENT WAS TO TAKE DOWN THE ENTIRE WORLD TRADE CENTER.

THEY DIDN'T BUT THEY KILLED A SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF PEOPLE AND THEY HAD A HISTORY OF KILLING PEOPLE.

>> DURING AND AFTER 9/11, YOU, THE MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY, WOULD SIT AT A TABLE WITH GOVERNOR PATAKI, THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK THREE TIMES A DAY, TWICE A DAY TO CUT THROUGH RED TAPE TO MAKE DECISIONS AND TO WORK TOGETHER.

WHAT DO IT THAT WAY?

>> BECAUSE IT GETS THINGS DONE.

EVERY DECISION WAS A JOINT DECISION.

WHEN WE MADE A MISTAKE, WE MADE IT TOGETHER.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO BE POINTING FINGERS AT EACH OTHER, SO THINGS GOT DONE VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY QUICKLY.

>> WOULD THAT DEGREE OF COORDINATION BE USEFUL NOW?

>> IT WOULD BE IMPERATIVE FOR THE CITY THAT IS THE EPI CENTER.

REMARKABLY THE GOVERNOR IN CUOMO HAS TAKEN INTERESTING JABS AT EACH OTHER WHICH, AS A NEW YORKER, I CAN'T IMAGINE THEY WOULD SPEND FOUR WEEKS TALKING ABOUT IT AND NOT DO THAT A LITTLE BIT.

I SEE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP.

THAT IS ABOUT AS GOOD AS IT GETS.

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THE MAYOR AND THE GOVERNOR AND I THINK De BLASIO IS DEFICIENT IN GIVING HOPE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT MESSAGING.

YOU'RE REMARKABLY CANDID WITH THE PUBLIC IN THE WAKE OF 9/11.

ALMOST IMMEDIATELY.

WHEN YOU DID YOUR FIRST PRESS CONFERENCE, YOU WERE HONEST, OPEN, EMPATHETIC.

I WANT TO PLAY YOU A CLIP FROM THE VERY FIRST PRESS CONFERENCE.

>> DO YOU KNOW THE NUMBER OF CASUALTIES AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME, SIR?

>> I REALLY DON'T THINK WE WANT TO SPECULATE ABOUT THAT.

THE NUMBER OF CASUALTIES WILL BE MORE THAN ANY OF US CAN BEAR ULTIMATELY.

>> WERE THERE EVER TIMES WHERE YOU TRIED TO HOLD BACK THE TRUTH FROM THE PUBLIC DURING A CRISIS SO AS TO PREVENT UNNECESSARY FEAR?

>> SURE.

ABSOLUTELY.

>> OR UNFOUNDED HOPE?

>> YES.

BOTH.

>> WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS THE KEY TO A SUCCESSFUL AND EFFECTIVE CRISIS COMMUNICATIONS AS A LEADER?

>> TRUTHFULNESS AND DISCRETION.

IT'S A BALANCE OF BEING TRUTHFUL BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, UNDERSTANDING THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE DISCRETION.

>> DO YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP AS HE IS BRIEFING THE COUNTRY ON THE COVID PANDEMIC RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, I THINK -- I THINK HE SHOULD -- HE SHOULD DEAL KIND OF WITH THE BIG PICTURE AND HE SHOULD MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THE REAL ANSWERS ARE AT THE STATE AND LOCAL LEVEL.

BECAUSE THE ANSWER IN NEW YORK IS GOING TO BE VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE ANSWER IN TEXAS.

HE SHOULD TALK ABOUT THE NEEDS THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT TO HIM, WHEN HE CAN SUPPLY THEM, HOW HE IS GOING TO SUPPLY THEM.

I THINK THE FACT THAT HE IS SHORTENING THEM NOW IS -- [ INAUDIBLE ] BECAUSE WE JUST HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE REALITY AND I'M SAYING THIS NOW JUST AS A FACT, NOT AS A POLITICAL COMPLAINT, THE PRESS DOESN'T LIKE HIM.

AND THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE HIM, IF HE SAYS SOMETHING, THAT COULD HAVE TWO EXPLANATIONS, THEY ARE GOING WITH THE ONE THAT MAKES HIM LOOK FOOLISH AS OPPOSED TO GIVING HIM A BREAK.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS COVERED LAST WEEK IS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, IN THE MOST GENEROUS PORTRAYALS OF WHAT HAPPENED, WHEN HE -- THE MOST GENEROUS PORTRAYALS SAYING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP MUSED ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF INJECTING DISINFECTANT AS A WAY OF CURING OR TREATING COVID.

JUST IN DRAWING ON YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE AS A CLEAR CONFIDENT TRANSPARENT COMMUNICATOR TO YOUR CONSTITUENCY, IS IT USING WHEN YOU MUSE OR YOU PROCESS OUTLOUD NEW INFORMATION?

OR IS IT BETTER, AS YOU SAID, TO HOLD SOME THINGS BACK?

>> PROBABLY A BALANCE.

YOU CAN'T -- YOU CAN'T -- AT TIMES -- AT TIMES, YOU HAVE TO GO BEYOND IN ORDER TO MOVE PUBLIC THINKING.

BUT YOU GOT TO EXAMINE THAT VERY CAREFULLY AND YOU HAVE TO WAIT A WHILE BEFORE YOU DO IT.

AND I THINK YOU COULD HAVE INTERPRETED THAT.

THAT COULD HAVE BEEN INTERPRETED DIFFERENTLY AS HE WAS MUSING.

IT WASN'T SERIOUS.

IT WAS EITHER SARCASTIC OR POSSIBLY A THOUGHT FROM A PERSON WHO IS NOT A SCIENTIST.

HE WASN'T TELLING PEOPLE TO DO THAT.

HE IS SAYING THIS IS A POSSIBILITY OF SOMETHING THAT COULD BE DONE.

HE ALWAYS -- >> OUTLOUD?

>> HE ALWAYS MAKES IT CLEAR IT SHOULD BE DONE BY DOCTORS.

HAVING SAID THAT, THIS WAS PROBABLY SOMETHING THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN -- SHOULD HAVE GOP THROUGH A MOOT COURT, WHICH I THINK OF AS A LAWYER.

>> YOU'RE SAYING HE SHOULDN'TING DOING HIS MUSINGS OUTLOUD?

HIS MUSINGS HAVE TO BE FILTERED?

>> SOMETIMES HE SHOULDN'T.

THIS WAS PROBABLY NOT.

>> YOU SAID THE IMPORTANCE IS TELLING THE TRUTH AND YOU SAY MANY PEOPLE DON'T TRUST HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH.

>> HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH AS HE KNOWS IT.

MAYBE WHAT HE SHOULD DO IS WITHHOLD IT AT CERTAIN POINTS.

LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S GO TO THE HYDROXY IN.

>> HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE.

>> I KNOW A LOT ABOUT IT AND PEOPLE THINK I DO BECAUSE IT'S LIKE A CONSPIRACY BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND ME.

WE BOTH FOUND OUT ABOUT IT DIFFERENTLY.

IN FACT, I WAS AMAZED THAT HE KNEW ABOUT IT.

IN THE EFFORT TO TRY TO GIVE PEOPLE HOPE, HE SAID THERE ARE THESE -- THERE ARE THESE MEDICINES THAT CAN BE USED.

HE SAID TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE VERY APPRECIATIVE OF THAT.

>> THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION JUST THIS WEEK GAVE GUIDELINES THAT HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE SHOULD NOT BE USED EXCEPT FOR IN A HOSPITAL SETTING BECAUSE OF THIS FEAR OF HEART RHYTHM PROBLEMS.

NOW, I THINK THAT -- I'VE SEEN YOU PROMOTE HYDROXY CHLOROQUINE AND ALSO THE PRESIDENT PROMOTE IT.

TO HAVE A THEORY THAT WOULD HELP THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WOULD ALSO BE HELPFUL TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

STUDY SHOW THAT THERE IS A DANGER TO USING IT, IT COULD ALSO BE DETRIMENTAL.

>> PLEASE DON'T THINK THAT THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION ISN'T A SOMEWHAT POLITICIZED ORGANIZATION.

I DEALT WITH THEM OVER WEST NILE VIRUS, THEM AND THE CDC, AND THEY BOTH TOLD ME TEN DAYS THERE WAS NO WEST NILE VIRUS.

I DEAL WITH THEM LIKE THEY ARE REGULAR HUMAN BEINGS, NOT LIKE THEY ARE GODS.

I HAVE A STUDY HERE FROM TURKEY THAT SAYS THAT BY GIVING HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE TO THE VERY PEOPLE THEY ARE SAYING SHOULDN'T GET IT, TO THE PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT IN THE HOSPITAL, THEY REDUCED THE NUMBER OF DEATHS.

>> DO YOU THINK THE FDA IS NOT REVIEWING THE SAME STUDIES THAT YOU'RE REVIEWING?

>> I THINK THE FDA HAS A BIAS BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT REVEALED IT.

I THINK THEY WANT HIM TO PAY A PRICE FOR IT.

>> WAIT.

DO YOU THINK THE FDA HAS A BIAS AGAINST THE PRESIDENT?

>> THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME THE FDA HAS BEEN POLITICAL, MARGARET.

THE FDA AND THESE THINGS GET POLITICAL.

>> ALL RIGHT.

SO WE SHOULD TRUST -- THE AUDIENCE -- I THINK WHAT YOU'RE SAYING THE AUDIENCE SHOULD DOUBT THE FDA -- >> DON'T TRUST ME.

>> AND THE INSTITUTIONS -- >> I'M NOT TELLING YOU TO TRUST ME.

I'M NOT TELLING YOU TO TRUST THE PRESIDENT.

TRUST YOUR DOCTOR.

HE IS GOING TO BE BETTER THAN THE FDA.

>> IF YOU WERE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES I THINK YOU WOULD RILE ON YOUR HHS, CDC AND YOUR FDA.

I KNOW YOU'RE LOOKING AT OTHER STUDIES.

I THINK IF YOU WERE PRESIDENT YOU WOULD BE BEHIND THE SCENE ASKING THESE SAME QUESTIONS AND NOW YOU'RE DOING IT PUBLICLY TO SORT OF ELEVATE BUILDING QUESTION, BUT IT GOES THIS DISTRUST IN THE INSTITUTIONS WHICH MAKES PEOPLE EVEN MORE CONFUSED AND MORE SCARED.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, I DO DISTRUST THE INSTITUTIONS BECAUSE I'VE SEEN THEM FAIL.

AND THEY ARE NOT GODS.

BUT THEY ARE PART OF THE CLASS OF PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY ARE SMARTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

THEY CERTAINLY THINK THEY ARE SMARTER THAN JUST MERE DOCTORS.

AND SOMETIMES I THINK THE MERE DOCTORS WHO ARE CLOSER TO THE SCENE ARE SMARTER.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT REOPENING.

GOVERNOR CUOMO HAS SAID BY MAY 15th IN A VERY PHASED AND METHODICAL WAY, NEW YORK WILL BEGIN TO OPEN UP SOME OF ITS BUSINESSES, SOME OF THE ECONOMY WILL BEGIN TO RETURN.

WHILE NEW YORK IS THE HARDEST HIT, A RECENT STUDY BY THE INVESTMENT BANK RAYMOND JAMES HAS FOUND THAT ONLY FOUR STATES, KANSAS, MONTANA, WASHINGTON, AND WYOMING, MEET ALL OF THE CRITERIA FROM THE WHITE HOUSE REOPENING GUIDELINES.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHILE THERE ARE OTHER SNATS ARE ALREADY REOPENING, GEORGIA, TENNESSEE, SOUTH CAROLINA THAT DON'T MEET THE FEDERAL GUIDELINES TO BEGIN REOPENING, HOW SERIOUSLY SHOULD STATES BE TAKING THE WHITE HOUSE REOPENING GUIDELINES?

>> I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THE WHITE HOUSE GUIDELINES AS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE -- GUIDELINES.

GOVERNORS HAVE THEIR OWN DISCRETION, RIGHT?

SO THEY CAN READ THEM AND APPLY THEM TO THEIR STATES.

WE HAVE TO ASSUME THAT IF THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWING THEM, THEY HAVE GOT A REASON FOR IT.

MAYBE THEY SHOULD ARTICULATE WHAT THE REASON IS.

FROM NEW YORK'S POINT OF VIEW -- THIS DOESN'T REALLY ANSWER THE QUESTION BUT IT GIVES NEW YORK AN ADVANTAGE -- I THINK CUOMO IS RIGHT ON WHAT HE DID WITH MAY 15th.

IT GIVES HIM TIME TO WATCH THAT.

>> RIGHT.

>> I MEAN, HE'S GOING TO HAVE -- HE IS GOING TO BE IN A MUCH BETTER POSITION AND HE SHOULD BE.

NEW YORK SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE FIRST TO OPEN UP.

THE WORST HIT SHOULDN'T BE THE -- WE SHOULD PROBABLY BE NEAR THE LAST OR AT LEAST IN THE SECOND HALF BECAUSE HE'LL GET -- GEORGIA TOOK A RISK.

THE PRESIDENT WAS AGAINST GEORGIA OPENING UP, WHICH IS KIND OF REMARKABLE, RIGHT, BECAUSE HE WANTS US TO OPEN UP QUICKLY.

THE PRESIDENT SAID HE THINKS THEY ARE DOING IT TOO FAST.

LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN GEORGIA.

IF THAT WORKS, THEN I GUESS WE HAVE TO SAY MAYBE WE HAVE TO MODIFY OUR OPINION A BIT.

IF TEXAS WORKS, WE DO.

IF THINGS GET BAD THERE IN A WEEK OR TWO, THEN THE GOVERNOR MAY HAVE TO PUSH IT BACK.

BUT I HOPE THAT IS THE WAY WE ARE APPROACHING IT.

A FEW STATES, I CAN'T TELL YOU IF IT'S THE RIGHT OR WRONG THING TO DO BUT FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF AN OVERALL SOLUTION TO IT, IT'S PROBABLY A GOOD IDEA THAT A FEW STATES VIOLATED THE GUIDELINES AND WE CAN FIND OUT FOR THE OTHER STATES, DO WE NEED THEM OR DON'T WE NEED THEM?

LET'S HOPE IT DOESN'T RESULT IN ANYTHING TERRIBLE.

>> IT BRINGS THE LABORATORIES OF DEMOCRACY TO A WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF MEANING, DOESN'T IT?

>> WE CAN'T NOT OPEN AT A POINT WHERE THERE WILL BE MOST RISK OF DISEASE.

THAT JUST DOESN'T EXIST IN SOCIETY.

WE LIVE WITH THE RISK OF DISEASE PROBABLY WORSE RISK EVERY DAY.

SO WE GOT TO -- WE GOT TO OPEN WHEN THERE IS NO UNREASONABLE RISK OF DISEASE.

>> YOU EXPRESSED A CONCERN THAT SOME STATES'S RESTRICTIONS ARE TOO STRINGENT.

I WANT YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT SOMETHING YOU'VE SAID AND EXPLAIN IT ON THE BACK END.

>> WE ARE AT THE POINT NOW WHERE THE CASES ARE DECLINING, IT'S ALL GOING THE OTHER DIRECTION, AND WE ARE PUTTING MORE RESTRICTIONS ON.

THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

IT'S STARTING TO SOUND LIKE THEY WANT TO CARRY THESE RESTRICTIONS INTO OCTOBER AND NOVEMBER, NOT JUST SAVE LIVES, BUT FOR POWER AND GREED.

>> YOU SAID THAT THERE ARE LEADERS WHO ARE NOT JUST -- DOING IT NOT JUST TO SAVE LIVES BUT FOR POWER AND GREED.

>> ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

>> WHY?

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> FOR SOME OF THESE LEFTIES WHO WANT A GOVERNMENT-CONTROLLED STATE, THIS IS NIRVANA AND IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO GIVE IT UP.

THEY LOVE IT.

De BLASIO HAS BEEN TRYING TO GET PEOPLE OUT OF PRISON FIVE YEARS.

HE PASSED A BAIL LAW THAT IS RIDICULOUS.

NOW HE CAN JUST LET THEM OUT!

>> DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE A PANDEMIC THAT HAS KILLED THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IS A NIRVANA FOR ANYONE?

>> NO, I DIDN'T MEAN THEY ARE GLORYING IN THE DEATH OF ALL PEOPLE.

>> IS IT THEIR MOTIVES ARE POWER AND GREED OR THESE ARE EARNIST FAST ATTEMPTS AT TRYING TO FLATTEN THE CURVE, STEM THE TIDE, TACKLE THE PANDEMIC?

>> YES TO BOTH.

I THINK THE OVERWHELMING MAMTING OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY, LEFT, RIGHT, MIDDLE, WANT THIS THING CURED FOR EVERYBODY.

BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A CRISIS, A CRISIS USUALLY MEANS PEOPLE ARE DYING.

TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT!

HORRIBLE!

HORRIBLE!

I DON'T DO THAT!

I NEVER RAN -- I NEVER RAN ANY OF THESE EMERGENCIES AND I RAN A LOT MORE THAN THEY DID.

WITH THE SLIGHTEST POLITICAL THOUGHT IN MY MIND.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A WAY TO BALANCE INDIVIDUAL LIBERTIES AND PRIVACY?

>> YEAH, THERE IS.

>> WITH PUBLIC HEALTH?

>> IT SHOULD BE -- SHOULD PREVAIL UNLESS A REAL EMERGENCY.

WE ARE ALMOST OUT OF A EMERGENCY.

HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS NOT OVERWHELMED.

THERE ARE HOSPITAL BEDS IN NEW YORK, THE WORST PLACE.

THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, THE HAELTS HEALTH CARE SYSTEM ISN'T OVERWHELMED.

THE PUNITIVE REASON FOR THIS EXTREME CIVIL LIBERTIES AND A WAY WE HAVE NEVER DONE IT BEFORE IS NOW OVER.

>> WE TALKED ABOUT THIS EARLIER.

YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW YOU THOUGHT NEW YORKERS HAD DONE A GOOD JOB OF VOLUNTARILY CHOOSING TO STAY HOME.

LOOK.

NOBODY LOCKED PEOPLE IN THEIR HOMES.

PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO GO TO THE GROCERY STORES AND ALLOWED TO GO OUTSIDE.

NEW YORKERS HAVE VOLUNTARILY FLATTENED THE CURVE AND THEY ARE GETTING THEIR CIVIL LIBERTIES AREN'T GONE.

>> THAT WAS TRUE AT THE BEGINNING.

>> WELL, BUT COULD THIS REOCCUR?

53 MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED NOW IN THE UNITED STATES THAN DIED IN VIETNAM.

THIS WASN'T FOR NO REASON.

>> I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS FOR NO REASON.

THERE WAS -- THERE WERE DIFFERENT REASONS FOR DIFFERENT THINGS.

THE PREMISE FOR KEEPING PEOPLE SO RESTRICTED, AS THEY ARE NOW, IS THAT WE ARE IN THIS UNBELIEVABLE EMERGENCY AND THAT EMERGENCY IS THAT OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IS OVERWHELMED.

IT ISN'T.

>> OR COULD BE EASILY AGAIN.

>> THEN WE WILL DO IT AGAIN IF WE HAVE TO.

>> >> THIS IS SUCH A CONTAGIOUS DISEASE, WE COULD BE IN A FAR RISKIER POSITION IF WE EASE OFF -- LOOK.

WE HAVE TO RESPONSIBLY REENGAGE IN A WAY THAT WON'T MAKE IT WORSE.

IT WOULD BE WORSE FOR BROADWAY TO REOPEN NOW, AND CLOSE AGAIN IN THE FALL.

HALF OF BROADWAY WOULD GO BANKRUPT.

>> I AGREE WITH THAT BUT WE SHOULD HAVE A PLAN TO REOPEN AND THEN WE SHOULD START SMALL AND IF IT WORKS, THEN GO FORWARD.

WE SHOULD HAVE AN AGGRESSIVE PLAN TO REOPEN.

NOT ALL AT ONCE.

BUT WE SHOULDN'T RESIST IT.

>> I JUST -- I WANT TO READ YOU A HEADLINE THAT SORT OF BRINGS US BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED.

COVID-19 IS OUR 9/11.

WHO WILL BE OUR [ INAUDIBLE ]?

AND THE AUTHOR HAS SOME REFLECTTIONS ON YOUR TIME AND LEADERSHIP DURING 9/11 AND THE RUDY GIULIANI THAT THE PUBLIC SEES TODAY.

I'M SURE YOU'VE HEARD IT.

PEOPLE HAVE KNOWN YOU A LONG TIME.

THEY HAVE WONDERED AND SAID WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO RUDY GIULIANI?

HAS HE CHANGED IN SOME WAY?

>> PEOPLE, MOSTLY, ARE ANGRY AT ME BECAUSE I REPRESENTED TRUMP.

I REPRESENTED TRUMP AS A LAWYER, AS HIS DEFENSE LAWYER TO DEFEND HIM.

WITH ALL OF THE TALENT AND ENTHUSIASM THAT I HAVE AND WITH ALL OF THE PASSION I HAVE.

I DO THAT FOR EVERY CLIENT OF MINE.

THAT MAKES ME A GREAT LAWYER.

IN THE OLD DAYS, IT WOULD HAVE MADE ME A HERO.

TRUMP WAS A CONTROVERSIAL CAUSE AND I WAS THE ONE WILLING TO TAKE UP THE CONTROVERSIAL CAUSE SO HE HAD THE RIGHT TO COUNSEL.

SO THAT'S ME.

STILL ME.

SAME PERSON.

IT'S JUST THAT PEOPLE WITH POLITICAL BIASES THAT THEY CAN'T GET BEYOND MAKE ME A BAD GUY FOR IT.

>> WITH THAT, MAYOR GIULIANI, YOU HAVE BEEN VERY GENEROUS WITH YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU FOR RETURNING TO "FIRING LINE."

>> I ENJOYED IT.

THANK YOU, MARGARET.