>> LOTS OF NEWS THIS WEEK.

THAT MUTINY IN RUSSIA AND SUPREME COURT DECISIONS.

WE'LL UNPACK THEM FOR YOU NEXT ON IVORY TOWER.

ON.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M BARBARA FOUGHT FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

HERE TO TALK ABOUT THE WEEK'S NEWS ARE LUKE PERRY, FROM UTICA UNIVERSIT MICHAEL TILLOTSON FROM SUNY-CORTLAND, CHAD SPARBER, FROM COLGATE, AND RICK FENNER FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

LAST WEEK WE TALKED ABOUT THE RUSSIA-UKRAINE WAR-- NEVER KNOWING THAT THE HEAD OF THE WAGNER GROUP, YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, WAS MARCHING HIS PRIVATE ARMY UP TO NEAR MOSCOW HOPING TO CAPTURE RUSSIAN GENERALS.

THE LEADER OF BELARUS QUICKLY NEGOTIATED A SETTLEMENT.

AND SINCE THEN, IT APPEARS PRIGOZHIN IS IN EXILE IN BELARUS.

THE RUSSIAN GENERAL IN CHARGE OF THE AIR FORCE HAS BEEN ARRESTED AND PRESIDENT PUTIN IS WORKING HARD TO REGAIN CONTROL.

MICHAEL, WHAT IS PUTIN'S STATUS NOW?

>> SO THE QUESTION THAT IS CIRCULATING AROUND IS IS PUTIN WEAKER?

AND WHAT IS PRIGOZHIN'S ROLE IN THAT.

HIS POWER IS NOT IN HIS MILITARY MIGHT BUT IN HIS ABILITY TO CRAFT A NARRATIVE, TO CRAFT AN OPTIC AS PUTIN FOR THE OLIGARCHS AND A MINION FOR THE ELITES.

THOSE RUSSIAN POWER BROKERS WHO SEND THEIR KIDS TO THE LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS, DAUGHTERS TO THE FINISHING SCHOOLS IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE AND IN THE SUMMER THESE SAME CHILDREN HAVE WILD PARTIES ON 100-FOOT YACHTS IN THE SEA WHILE THE AVERAGE RUSSIAN IS TRYING TO MAKE ENDS MEET.

YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN HAS THE ABILITY TO CREATE A NEGATIVE SENTIMENT AGAINST PUTIN.

SO THE QUESTION BECOMES HOW DOES PRIGOZHIN SITUATE PUTIN AS PROFITEER AND PUPPET.

>> WHAT DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE HERE BETWEEN THE TWO, PUTIN AND PRIGOZHIN?

>> EIGHT PEERS THAT PRIGOZHIN WAS VERY UNHAPPY WITH THE DIRECTION THAT THE RUSSIAN MILITARY IS GOING.

HE FELT HIS GROUP RIGHTLY WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF THE POSITIVE FIGHTING IN UKRAINE.

AND THAT LEE HE WAS BEING KEPT FROM HAVING ENOUGH MATERIALS.

AND SO THE ORIGINAL PLANS, YOU SAID, WAS TO CAPTURE TWO OF THE RUSSIAN GENERALS.

WHEN THAT GOT LEAKED, HE GOT FORCED INTO ACTION, AND THAT, I THINK, IS WHAT LED TO GOING TOWARDS Ms. MOSCOW WHICH DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE HIS PRIMARY THING.

HE CERTAINLY BELIEVES THAT RUSSIA'S MILITARY HAS BEEN INEFFECTIVE.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE ARE SEEING.

WOULD I HAVE NEVER THOUGHT THAT AT THIS POINT IF TIME, UKRAINIAN-RUSSIAN WAR WOULD STILL BE GOING ON.

PUTIN GETS CAUGHT IN A POSITION NOW WHERE HE HAS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM ARE LOYAL AND THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS SOMETIMES THE PEOPLE THAT ARE THE MOST LOYAL ARE NOT THE MOST COMPETENT.

>> I THINK THAT PRIGOZHIN IS NOT A POPULOUS LEADER.

HE CAN MAKE APPEALS BUT HE IS AN ELITE.

HE HAS A BILLION DOLLARS TO HIS CATERING BUSINESS THROUGH SERVING THE MILITARY AND ROUGHLY ANOTHER BILLION DOLLARS OF MILITARY AID FOR HIS MERCENARY GROUP.

HE IS AMONG THE 20 RULING ELITES IN RUSSIA AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS A PUBLIC CRACK IN PUTIN'S AUTHORITY.

THE QUESTION MOVING FORWARD, IS PUTIN TREADING WATER OR IS HE GOING TO BE ABLE TO SLAM THE DOOR ON THIS BY PURGING ELITES WHO WERE QUESTIONING HIS AUTHORITY?

AND I THINK THIS IS BENEFICIAL FOR UKRAINE AND BENEFICIAL FOR THE UNITED STATES ALLIED WITH UKRAINE BECAUSE THIS WAR HAS BEEN ILL-CONCEIVED AND NOT IMPLEMENTED WELL AND I THINK PUTIN IS STARTING TO PAY THE PUBLIC PRICE FOR THAT IN TERMS OF THIS NEGATIVE ATTENTION RELATED TO THIS STRUGGLE.

>> CHAD, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE FUTURE OF THIS WAGNER GROUP?

PUTIN WANTS TO INCORPORATE THEM IN THE RUSSIAN ARMY BUT I THINK THAT WOULD BE QUITE DIFFERENT CULTURES.

>> I'M A LITTLE HESITANT TO DO TOO MUCH ON THIS BECAUSE SO MUCH IS SPECULATIVE, RIGHT?

AND IT'S COMING FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE SKILLED AT DISINFORMATION.

>> THAT HASN'T STOPPED US BEFORE.

>> THIS IS DIFFERENT.

BUT LOOK, KIMBERLY MARTIN IS A POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR AT BARNARD COLLEGE, AN EXPERT ON WAGNER, AND SHE IS MAKING THE ROUNDS.

I RECOMMEND LOOKING UP WHAT SHE HAS TO SAY.

ONE OF THE THINGS SHE IS TALKING ABOUT IS WAGNER HAS A POWER STRUCTURE THAT'S VERY DIFFUSE, AND SO PRIGOZHIN AND HIS ROLE IN THAT IS ALMOST INCONSEQUENTIAL.

THIS IS A GROUP THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR A LOT OF TRADING IN AFRICAN GOLD, WHICH IS IMPORTANT FOR KEEPING THE RUSSIAN FINANCIAL SYSTEM AFLOAT.

THEY DO A LOT OF TRADE IN WEAPONS.

AND RUSSIA RELIES ON THE WAGNER GROUP FOR PROVIDING, LET'S CALL IT SECURITY SERVICES IN AFRICAN COUNTRIES, AND THEY WANT AN ARM'S LENGTH RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM BECAUSE WAGNER CREATES A LOT OF WAR ATROCITIES THAT RUSSIA WANTS TO DISAVOW ITSELF FROM.

SO I THINK WAGNER IS GOING TO BE FINE WITH OR WITHOUT PRIGOZHIN.

>> TO LUKE'S POINT REALLY FAST, SEEING PRIGOZHIN ELITE AS HE IS.

LET'S NOT UNDERAPPRECIATE THE POWER OF PROPAGANDA.

DONALD TRUMP IS AN ELITE.

A MAN WITH 14 KARAT GOLD TOILETS BUT HE HAS SITUATED HIMSELF AS EVERY MAN SO YOU NEVER KNOW.

>> THEY HAVE STATE CONTROLLED MEDIA SO IT'S DIFFICULT TO HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF PUBLIC NARRATIVE.

I THINK PRIGOZHIN THOUGHT HE HAD ALLIES WITHIN THE MILITARY ELITE THAT WERE SUPPORTIVE OF HIM AND THEY WERE UNTIL THE POINT THAT IT WAS CLEAR THAT HE WASN'T GOING TO CONTINUE.

AND THE FACT THAT HE IS GOING TO BELARUS IS INTRIGUING TO ME.

THAT'S A PUPPET STATE FOR RUSSIA.

TO CHAD'S POINT, LU USHANKA MIGHT BE TRYING TO HAVE THE WAGNER GROUP THERE TO HELP POSITION HIMSELF FROM A POTENTIAL INVASION OR MORE RUSSIAN INCURSION.

>> HE IS LIVING IN AN APARTMENT WITHOUT WINDOWS BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO CHALLENGE PUTIN HAVE A PROBLEM OF FALLING OUT OF THEM.

>> LET'S MOVE TO OUR SECOND TOPIC.

THE SUPREME COURT CAME DOWN WITH SOME BIG DECISIONS THIS WEEK AS IT WRAPS UP ITS TERM.

WE ARE RECORDING FRIDAY MORNING BEFORE THE FINAL DECISIONS COME DOWN,SO WE WON'T BE TALKING ABOUT THE STUDENT DEBT CASE, NOR THE WEB DESIGNER WHO DIDN'T WANT LGBTQ CUSTOMERS, BUT WE HAVE STUDIED UP ON A COUPLE CASES.

FIRST, THE CASE ABOUT GERRYMANDERING.

THE COURT SAID THAT THE NORTH CAROLINA STATE LEGISLATURE DOESN'T HAVE THE ULTIMATE POWER IN DRAWING UP CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT LINES.

STATE COURTS CAN REVIEW THEM.

LUKE, WHY THIS IS DECISION SO IMPORTANT?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT DOES NOT GIVE STATE LEGISLATURES THE SOLE AUTHORITY TO MANAGE FEDERAL ELECTIONS.

AND THIS CASE DATES BACK A COUPLE OF YEARS PRIOR TO THE LAST REDISTRICTING IN THE HOUSE, WHERE THE SUPREME COURT RULE THAT PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING IS SOMETHING THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO REGULATE.

SO STATES SAID OKAY, GREAT, PARTICULARLY LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE STATES AND STARTED GERRYMANDERING THE NEW DISTRICTS WE HAVE FOR THE NEXT 10 YEARS.

THEY RAN INTO A SNAG WHERE STATE COURTS STARTED REGULATING THOSE DECISIONS AND IN THE INTEREST OF STATE LAW AND STATE CONSTITUTIONS, PROHIBITING GERRYMANDERING.

SO THE RESPONSE WAS FROM STATES LIKE NORTH CAROLINA, STATE COURTS CAN'T DO THIS, RIGHT?

PER THE ELECTION CLAUSE IN THE U.S. CONSTITUTION THEIR ARGUMENT IS STATE LEGISLATURES HAVE THE SOLE AUTHORITY.

THE SUPREME COURT SAID NO, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF HELPING TO MITIGATE GERRYMANDERING.

IT WON'T ELIMINATE IT BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT IN OR DEALING WITH DISPUTES FOLLOWING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS LIKE IN 2020 WHERE STATE LEGISLATURES CAN'T SUDDENLY DECIDE TO DO THINGS DIFFERENT IN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS AS WELL.

>> I WOULD SAY THIS IS NOT REALLY ABOUT GERRYMANDERING.

IT'S ABOUT THE ULTIMATE POWER THAT THE LEGISLATURE HAS.

AND I THINK THIS WAS A RULING, IF YOU ASK ME, DOES THIS RULING HAVE A BIG EFFECT, LITTLE EFFECT OR NO EFFECT?

I WOULD SAY LITTLE EFFECT.

BECAUSE WHILE IT DOES SAY THERE ARE STILL SOME CHECKS AND BALANCES, AS WE SAW IN NORTH CAROLINA, YOU KNOW, THE LEGISLATURE, YOU KNOW, PASSED THESE MAPS.

THE COURTS SAID THAT THEY WERE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

BUT THEN WHAT HAPPENED?

VOTERS WENT IN AND THEY ELECTED A NEW SLATE OF SUPREME COURT JUSTICES, WHICH, IN THE MEANTIME, SAID YEP THOSE MAPS ARE OKAY.

SO I THINK IN TERMS OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS IS LOOKING FORWARD TO THE 2024 ELECTIONS.

AND YES, I THINK IT MAKES IT A LITTLE LESS LIKELY THAT A SMALL GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS WILL OVERTURN THE PUBLIC WILL, BUT THERE IS STILL THE ABILITY OF A SLIGHTLY BIGGER GROUP, LEGISLATURES WITH THE BACKING OF THE COURTS, OR AN ATTORNEY GENERALS COULD STILL END UP AFFECTING THE ELECTORS AND ELECTION OF 2024.

>> I THINK THIS WAS A MUCH MORE IMPORTANT CASE.

AND I HOPE IT'S NOT HYPERBOLE.

IT MIGHT BE THE MOST IMPORTANT SUPREME COURT CASE IN MY LIFETIME AND THAT THE COURTS DECIDED IT CORRECTLY.

AND IT'S BECAUSE OF ISSUES THAT YOU ARE GETTING TO WHICH I THINK IT'S FUNDAMENTALLY ABOUT THE SEPARATION OF POWERS, ONE OF THE FOUNDING PRINCIPLES OF OUR CONSTITUTION.

WHEN CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS WRITES FOR THE MAJORITY SAYING THE ELECTION CLAUSE DOES NOT INSULATE STATE LEGISLATURES FROM THE ORDINARY EXERCISE OF STATE JUDICIAL REVIEW, AND THAT THE CONSTITUTION DOES NOT EXEMPT STATE LEGISLATURES FROM ORDINARY CONSTRAINTS IMPOSED BY STATE LAW, TO ME, THAT'S AN IMPORTANT VICTORY FOR ALL AND REALLY ABOUT SEPARATION OF POWERS AS OPPOSED ABOUT THE ELECTION NARROWLY.

>> HE ALSO SAID IN INTERPRETING STATE LAW IN THIS AREA, STATE COURTS MAY NOT SO EXCEED THE BOUNDS OF ORDINARY JUDICIAL REVIEW AS TO UNCONSTITUTIONALLY INTRUDE UPON THE ROLES SPECIFICALLY RESERVED FOR STATE LEGISLATURES, WITHOUT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT IS EXCESSIVE, WHAT ARE THOSE RESERVED TO STATE LEGISLATURES SO IT LEFT THIS WIDE OPEN.

SO I'M NOT QUITE AS CONFIDENT AS YOU ARE.

>> I THINK THAT'S OKAY.

BECAUSE I THINK WHERE WE CAN AGREE AT THE TABLE IS THAT THE SEPARATION OF POWERS IS IMPORTANT AND THEN WHERE WE WOULD MAYBE DISAGREE ON INDIVIDUAL CASES WHERE IS THAT BOUNDARY AND SO THE COURT MADE THIS DECISION ON A VERY NARROW CASE OPPOSED TO THESE PARTICULAR... >> MICHAEL, HOW DO YOU SEE IT.

>> SPEAKING ABOUT VICTORY TO CHAD'S POINTED, THIS IS NOT JUST A MAJOR VICTORY FOR-- THIS IS A MAJOR VICTORY FOR REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY AND FOR AMERICANS OF AFRICAN DESCENT FROM KENTUCKY TO TEXAS BECAUSE THEY WERE ABOUT TO FACE A RUTHLESS GERRYMANDERING CAMPAIGN IN THE NEXT POLITICAL CYCLE WITH THE FULL SUPPORT OF STATE APPARATUS.

IN DEEPLY RED SOUTHERN STATES.

NOW THESE AMERICANS IN THE SOUTH, BLACK AMERICANS, WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THEIR VOICES HEARD TO SOME DEGREE AND ALSO TO PICK THE PERSON WHO, IN THEIR VIEWS, REPRESENTS THEIR INTEREST.

SO THIS IS GOOD NEWS COMING OUT OF THE SUPREME COURT BUT I THINK IT'S A SHAME THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND PAUSE A SUPREME COURT FOR ACTING IN THE WAY THAT IS CONGRUENT WITH THE PRINCIPLES OF A REGULAR DEMOCRACY.

>> BUT THE RESULT IN NORTH CAROLINA WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE STATE LEGISLATURE WANTED, WHICH IS TO TAKE AND MAKE ONLY ONE DISTRICT WITH A MAJORITY OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN IT.

SO THIS WAS ULTIMATELY NOT A VICTORY FOR THE PEOPLE OF NORTH CAROLINA, CERTAINLY NOT AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA.

>> IFFY WITH ONLY THINK ABOUT NORTH CAROLINA, WHICH IN A BROADER PERSPECTIVE,... >> AND I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT IN THENCE THAT WE ARE EITHER GOING TO SEE MORE PLILTIZATION OF COURTS, MOST STATES ELECT THEIR JUDGESES AND THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE REFERENCING WILL HAPPEN.

BUT LOOKING FORWARD TO THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, SOMETHING LIKE WHAT PENNSYLVANIA WAS TRYING TO DO LAST TIME, OVERTURN THE POPULAR WILL IN THE STATE BY ENDING NEW ELECTORS TO THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, THIS SLAMS THE DOOR ON THAT.

SO I FEEL MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE TBOR PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND THE CHECK AS CHAD MENTIONED ON THE POWER OF STATE LEGISLATURE TO INTERFERE WITH VOTER WILL WHICH WAS SORT OF AN UNUSUAL BUT VERY SERIOUS CHALLENGE WE FACED LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

>> WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT ANOTHER DECISION ON THURSDAY.

THE SUPREME COURT SAID UNIVERSITIES CAN'T USE RACE IN DETERMINING WHICH STUDENTS THEY ADMIT.

I SUSPECT ALL UNIVERSITIES ARE SCRAMBLING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO CHANGE THEIR PROCESSES AND STILL ADMIT A RICH TAPESTRY OF STUDENTS.

CHAD, HOW DIFFICULT IS THIS GOING TO BE?

>> I DON'T THINK IT WILL BE.

I MEAN THIS IS NOT THE VICTORY THAT CONSERVATIVES MIGHT THINK THAT IT IS.

THE UNIVERSITIES GOALS HAVE NOT CHANGED.

JUST A TOOL FOR ACCOMPLISHING THE GOALS HAVE.

SOME OF THE ALTERNATIVES MAY BE MORE ANATHEMA TO CONSERVATIVE THINKS.

MOST UNIVERSITIES REQUIRE JOB APPLICANTS TO WRITE STATEMENTS ATTESTING TO THEIR COMMITMENT TO ADVANCE IS DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION INITIATIVES.

MANY CONSERVATIVES AND EVEN, YOU KNOW, CENTER FOLKS SEE THOSE AS SORT OF LIKE FAITH STATEMENTS THAT ARE SORT OF ANT ANTITHETICAL TO ACADEMIC FREEDOM BUT IT IS NOT CLEAR TO ME ANYTHING IS STOPPING SCHOOLS FROM ASKING FOR D.E.I.

STATEMENTS... >> DEVELOPMENT-- D.E.I.

MEANING?

>> DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION.

>> FOR A STUDENT'S WORTHINESS OF ADMISSION.

SUDDENLY YOU WOULD BE DISCRIMINATING ON AN IDEOLOGICAL STANCE CORRELATING WITH RACE INSTEAD OF RACE ITSELF.

AND THAT'S NOT BETTER IN ANY WAY.

SO YOU WOULD BE MOVING FROM KIND OF AN OBJECTIVE MEASURE TO MORE SUBJECTIVIVITY AND THAT'S GOING TO UNDERMINE WHAT I THINK CONSERVATIVES WANT.

>> MICHAEL, DO YOU SENSE THAT THIS IS A POSITIVE OR A NEGATIVE DECISION?

>> I DON'T THINK ANYONE AT THIS TABLE IS ACTUALLY SURPRISED BY THIS DECISION, I DON'T THINK.

THE MAN-- THIS HAS BEEN A GOAL SINCE THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION ESPECIALLY FOR JOHN ROBERTS WHO WROTE THE WAY TO STOP DISCRIMINATING ON THE BASIS OF RACE IS TO STOP DISCRIMINATING ON THE BASIS OF RACE WHICH IS ABSTRACT NON CENTRAL AS IF THAT STATEMENT ALONE COULD UNSUBSCRIBE THE INSTINCTS OF SOME INDIVIDUALS.

HE HAS HAD THESE THOUGHTS SINCE HE CLERKED FOR THE ULTRACONSERVATIVE JUSTICE IN THE 80s WHEN HE WAS PART OF THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION.

ROBERTS HAS HAD IN HIS SIGHTS FOR DECADES THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT WHICH HE PRACTICALLY DISMEMBERED JUNE 25, 2013 THAT SAID SECTION 4 IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

DREAMS OF THE ROBERTS COURT, END ROE V. WADE, DREAM NUMBER 2, END AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND DROME NUMBER 3, SLOWLY DISMANTLED THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

AND HE GOT HIS HELP THROUGH THE THREE MUSKETEERS.

THIS IS A PROBLEM.

>> THERE ARE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE CASES THOUGH AND ONE THAT STANDS OUT TO ME IS THAT THE ROE DECISION WENT AGAINST PUBLIC OPINION AND THIS AFFIRMATIVE ACTION DECISION WAS IN LINE WITH AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

MOST AMERICANS DO NOT FAVOR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND I THINK THAT'S A CHALLENGE.

NOW FOR US WHO WORK IN EDUCATION AND SEE THE VALUE OF HAVING A DIVERSE POOL OF STUDENTS AND DIVERSE EDUCATORS, WE ARE PROBABLY MUCH MORE LIKELY THAN THE POPULATION AT LARGE TO BE CRITICAL OF THIS DECISION, WHICH I UNDERSTAND.

BUT I THINK THE THIN ICE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION HAS BEEN ON IS NOT JUST ABOUT ROBERTS.

I MEAN IT GOES BACK TO 2003 IN A DECISION THAT UPHELD AFFIRMATIVE ACTION BY 5-4 VOTE.

THE FARTHER WE GET AWAY FROM THE ERA OF SYSTEMATIC RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, THE HARDER IT IS TO MAKE CASES TO PEOPLE AT LARGE WHO DID NOT LIVE IN THAT TIME.

AND THAT'S NOT TO DENY THE DATA THAT THERE IS STILL GREAT DISPARITIES.

BUT I THINK IT'S A CHALLENGE IN THINKING ABOUT SOCIAL CHANGE AND HOW TO PURSUE THE THINGS THAT I SUSPECT VARIOUS DEGREES WE ALL VALUE WHEN IT COMES TO D.E.I.

AND ADVANCING AMERICAN SOCIETY.

>> I AGREEY THAT THIS WAS NOT SURPRISE BUT I'M VERY DISAPPOINTED AND THE HYPOCRISY, I THINK OF POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES SAYING THAT THERE SHOULDN'T BE RACE-BASED ADMISSIONS POLICIES WHEN I'M OLD ENOUGH-- I LIVED THROUGH THE 60s WHEN THEY HAD NO PROBLEM WITH RACE-BASED ADMISSIONS POLICIES AND THAT POLL POLICY WAS THAT BLACKS WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GO TO MAJOR STATE UNIVERSITIES.

I REMEMBER SEEING GEORGE WALLACE ON THE STEPS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA WITH ARMED MILITIA SAYING BLACKS WILL NOT COME HERE.

SO NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN, IT'S ONLY BEEN 60 YEARS, THEY'RE NOW SAYING WE ARE GOING TO FORGET ABOUT THAT.

YOU MENTIONED LUKE, THE BENEFITS OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN TERMS OF DIE VERSE STUDENT POPULATION-- DIVERSE STUDENT POPULATION.

PART OF THIS IS TO ADDRESS PREVIOUS INEQUITIES AND TO THINK THAT WE ARE NOW AT A POINT WHERE ALL OF THE IMPACT OF THE DISCRIMINATION THAT EXISTED IN THE 60s THAT, AS YOU SAID, STILL CONTINUES TODAY IN HOUSING AND EMPLOYMENT, THERE ARE PLENTY OF STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT, THAT WE CAN NOW SORT OF PRETEND THAT THIS DOESN'T EXIST AND WHAT WE NEED IS A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD, I THINK IS... >> LET ME GO-- OKAY.

I WANT TO APPEAL TO THE SORT OF ACADEMIC FOUNDATION FOR SOME OF THE THINKING THAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

IN 1993 ECONOMISTS STEVEN COAT AND GLEN LOWERY PUBLISHED A VERY INFLUENTIAL PAPER ARGUING THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION WILL LEAD TO ONE OF TWO LONG RUN OUTCOMES.

THAT IT'S SO EFFECTIVE IN CHANGING PERCEPTIONS OF MINORITIES AND THEIR SKILLS THAT'S AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IF WILL NO LONGER BE NECESSARY AND THE OTHER IS THAT IT DISINCENTIVIZED MINORITIES FROM BUILDING THEIR SKILLS.

BOTH OF THOSE POLICY OUTCOMES SUGGEST THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS NECESSARILY A SHORT-TERM SOLUTION AND NOT-- A SHORT-TERM POLICY EXPERIMENT NOT A LONG-TERM ONE.

THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR UNDERSTANDING THE 2003 SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR TALK THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION SHOULD NOT BE JUSTIFIABLE IN PERPETUITY AND PART OF THE THINKING THAT JUSTICE ROBERTS WROTE IN A STATEMENT BASICALLY AGREEING THAT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION CANNOT RUN FOREVER.

SO IT'S NOT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE EXISTING INEQUALITIES AND SHOULD THEY BE DRESSED.

IT'S IS THIS AN APPROPRIATE TOOL FOR DOING THAT IN THE LONG RUN AND THEY SAY NO.

>> MICHAEL.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT RACE AND RACISM ON THE SHOW BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT'S AN INTRACTABLE PART OF THE AMERICAN SPIRIT BUT WOULD I LIKE TO ASK LUKE WHEN HE SAID MOST AMERICANS THINK AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, WHEN YOU SAY MOST, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW SOME DATA SETS BECAUSE THE PEOPLE I TALK TO AND THE COMMUNITY I VISIT, THEY'RE VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED TO THE IDEA.

I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHERE YOU DRAW THE MOST FROM.

>> NATIONAL POLLS BY PEW AND THERE ARE CERTAINLY DIFFERENCES BASED ON RACE IN TERMS OF PEOPLE'S ATTITUDES.

ONE PIECE OF THIS, IT'S NOT JUST RACIAL AND ETHNIC MINORITIES ON THE ONE SIDE AND WHITE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE.

ASIAN-AMERICANS OBVIOUSLY ARE PART OF THIS CASE AS WELL.

THEY'RE OVERREPRESENTED AND HIGHLY SELECTIVE EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND FEELING LIKE THEY'RE BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AND SO I THINK THAT IS ALSO AN ADDITIONAL FACTOR IN MAKING SENSE OF THIS.

WE TEND TO THINK ABOUT THIS IN TERMS OF BLACK AND WHITE BUT AS WE ALL KNOW RACE AND ETHNICITY IS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED BUT THOSE ARE THE TYPES OF THINGS I'M THINKING ABOUT IN THE DATA I'M REFERENCING.

>> SO MICHAEL, IF THE POLLS ARE SHOWING 70%, THAT MEANS SOME PEOPLE IN OUR AUDIENCE THINK WE DON'T NEED AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

WHY DO YOU THINK WE DO?

>> TO RICK'S POINTS.

WE CANNOT FORGET THE HISTORICAL REALITIES OF AMERICA.

RACE IS AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF THE AMERICAN IDEAL.

THE AMERICAN IDEAL IS FAILING MOSTLY BECAUSE OF RACIALIZED INSTINCTS OF AMERICANS.

IT'S JUST THAT CLEAR TO ME.

THAT'S WHY I RARELY TALK ABOUT RACE BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT'S JUST AN INTRACTABLE PART OF THE AMERICAN SPIRIT.

FOR ME, THE BIGGEST THING I LIKE TO SEE IS MORE BLACK AMERICANS WORKING IN A COLLECTIVE FASHION TOWARDS THEIR OWN INTERESTS.

>> JUSTICE THOMAS GOES BACK AND GOES TO THE ORIGINAL SIN OF SLAVERY AND AGAIN, I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO GO BACK THAT FAR TO SUGGEST THAT, YOU KNOW, BLACKS TODAY HAVE EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES BASED ON THE DISCRIMINATION AND INEQUITIES THAT OCCURRED IN THE 1960s WITH EDUCATION.

I THINK IS JUST A PIPE DREAM.

>> BUT TO GO BACK TO ACADEMIC EVIDENCE, YOU KNOW, WHEN CALIFORNIA AND TEXAS SHUT DOWN THEIR AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, WE SAW A SHIFT AWAY FROM S.A.T.

SCORES AND G.P.A.

AS ADMISSION CRITERION.

>> AND WE GOT TO LEAVE IT THERE.

A THOROUGH DISCUSSION WE COULD DO MORE.

LUKE, TIME TO OPEN UP THE GRADEBOOK, YOUR F PLEASE.

>> MY F GOES TO THE DEMISE OF NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, THE ICONIC MAGAZINE LAID OFF ALL ITS FULL-TIME STAFF WRITERS THIS WEEK IN A SAD DEVELOPMENT.

>> MICHAEL.

>> PIE F GRS TO MOTHERS FOR LIBERTY WHO ARE TRYING EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO DISMANT DISMANTLE-- AMERICAN EDUCATION.

>> AN AN INTERESTING GROUP WITH LOCAL CHAPTERS HERE.

>> SYRACUSE.COM RECENTLY PUBLISHED THE PROPERTY TAX RATES.

THE VILLAGE WSES THE HIGHEST TAX RATES ARE ON YOUR SCREEN NOW AND IF YOU CAN READ IT AND SEE WHO IS AT NUMBER ONE, YOU CAN SEE I'M CRYING INSIDE.

>> OKAY AND RICK YOUR F. >> MY F GOES TO THE NEW YORK STATE LEGISLATURE FOR PASSAGE OF A BILL THAT WOULD KEEP UNPAID MEDICAL DEBT FROM INDIVIDUAL CREDIT REPORTS.

IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO BUY CARS OR HOUSES.

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT MEDICAL DEBT IS A PROBLEM BUT PREDENIEDING-- PRETENDING IT DOESN'T EXIST, IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

HOW IS ALLOWING THEM TO BORROW MORE MONEY AND PUTTING THEM FURTHER INTO DEBT GOING TO HELP THEM IN THE LONG RUN?

>> LET'S SEE WHO DID SOMETHING WELL THIS WEEK.

LUKE, YOUR A.

>> MY A GOES TO MARY NELSON, AN AMAZING LOCAL COMMUNITY ACTIVIST WHO WORKED WITH AMAZON TO COLLECT 10,000 RETURNS AND DISCARDED PACKAGES AND DONATED THEM TO 10,000 ECONOMICALLY CHALLENGED SYRACUSE FAMILY.

GREAT WORK.

>> THIS IS AN AM SOB PROGRAM, RIGHT, THE BOXES THAT I LOST OR SOMETHING ARE GIVEN TO NON-PROFIT GROUPS AND THEY DISTRIBUTE THEM?

IS THAT HOW IT WORKS?

>> IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE FOR AMAZON TO RESELL THEM SO THEY GIVE THEM AWAY AND YOU NEED LOCAL PEOPLE ON THE GROUND TO HELP WITH THAT.

>> MICHAEL, YOUR A.

>> MY A GOES TO AMERICAN ED CAN IT EDUCATORS WHO MADE IT THROUGH ANOTHER YEAR OF ONSLAUGHTS FROM GROUPS I MENTIONED PARTICULARLY MY WIFE ANDREA FOR HAS TAUGHT SECOND GRADE FOREVER.

>> I'M GIVING THE SAME A AS LAST WEEK.

KRISTEN COPELAND AT THIS IS THE ONLY ONE WILLING TO CALL OUT TRUMP FOR MORAL CHARACTER AND OVERALL FAILURES.

A LITTLE SAD HIS POLLING NUMBERS ARE ABYSMAL AND TRUMPS ARE STILL ABOVE 50%.

LET'S HOPE HE STAYS IN LONG ENOUGH THAT SOMEONE CAN MOUNT A REALISTIC PRIMARY CHALLENGE.

>> YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A REAL REALISTIC PRIMARY CHALLENGE.

>> I HAVE TO HAVE HOPE.

I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S REALISTIC.

>> RICK.

>> MY A GOES TO GERMANE WHO PITCHED A PERFECT GAME WEDNESDAY FIGHT.

27 BATTERS UP, 27 BATTERS DOWN.

NO HITS, NO WALKS, NO ERRORS ONLY THE FOURTH PERFECT GAME IN NEW YORK YANKEES HISTORY AND THE FIRST IN THE MAJOR LEAGUE SINCE 2012.

A TO DAVID WHO WOKE ME UP AT MIDNIGHT SO WOULD I WATCH AND WITNESS THE RARE BASEBALL FEAT WITH HIM.

>> YOUR SON COMES AND KNOCKS ON THE DOOR AND SAYS DAD, GET UP.

I WAS UP AND I GOT TO SEE THE EIGHTH AND NINTH INNING AND SHARED IT WITH HIM.

MY WIFE DID NOT.

>> AND HOW COMMON OR UNCOMMON IS THIS?

>> THERE HASN'T BEEN ANOTHER ONE IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES SINCE 2012 AND THERE ARE LIKE 24 IN MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL HISTORY SO THIS IS VERY RARE.

>> IT IS QUITE SIGNIFICANT.

I WANT TO THANK FOLKS AT PETERBORO, WE WERE AT THE JUPT CELEBRATION THERE AND YOU CAME OUT AND SAID HELLO AND OTHERS THANKS FOR WATCHING AS WELL.

LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE TOPICS WE HAVE DISCUSSED.

THE ADDRESSES ARE ON THE SCREEN.

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