- Just ahead on our WTVP 50 Years of Leadership Series, we're talking about the difference between a boss and a leader.

Tonight's critical conversation brings discussion from three more great Central Illinois leaders, and it all starts right now.

(lively music) - Good evening.

Thanks so much for joining us.

I'm Amy Burkett.

And I hope you're ready for our leadership conversation tonight.

It's not always easy to know the difference between a boss and a leader, but it will become more clear pretty quickly, I promise.

Austrian author, educator, and management consultant Peter Drucker said, "Management is doing things right.

"Leadership is doing the right things."

Let's meet some of our extraordinary Central Illinois leaders right now.

Sid Ruckriegel is Peoria City councilman.

And so excited to have you here.

Sid, talk to us a little bit about how you define the difference between a leader and a boss.

- I think a leader always keeps the mission in mind.

Boss becomes more about the product and the end result, but for a leader, they really have to be able to keep the mission as the focus and the team members guiding towards that mission.

Leader also lets his team know what his responsibilities are, and that way, they can also have accountability for his actions.

His examples will help be able to build that teamwork.

And you've gotta be able to let your team members grow into into what they can be.

Sometimes the hardest part about that is that also means that a certain point, they leave you to go on to do other things.

And being a boss, you're afraid to do that, because that messes with your system sometimes.

So a boss is more focused, in my mind, on that final product or the final number.

- Ah, but a leader can free people to soar, even if it means they leave our organizations.

Great information.

Theresa Murphy, strategic philanthropy officer at OSF HealthCare.

Theresa, help us get to know a little bit more about how you define the difference between a leader and a boss.

- Yeah, so thank you very much for having me in.

Boss versus leader.

Boy, you know, it's one of those things that you always know when you've got a good or bad boss.

Leadership, a little tougher to figure out.

But I think it really is pretty simple.

To me, a boss is about themselves, thinking about themselves in a way, when you're a leader, you are about thinking about others first.

So it's not about me.

It's about what can I do to help my team, my volunteers, my family, my employees, whatever it may be.

It's really about how do you serve them.

So, you know, we all know and have read every management and leadership style, and servant leadership obviously is important.

But I go back to that, and I always think about, you know, "How do you serve?"

And when your focus isn't yourself, but it's on others, that allows people to shine.

And so, to me it's, again, simple.

To serve.

Serve others.

And certainly, as Sid mentioned, mission, because I work for OSF HealthCare and the Sisters of the Third Order, you know, it is all about mission and about serving others.

So that kind of permeates through what we do every day from a work standpoint.

But again, it goes back to, whether you're talking about your family, your volunteers, your church group, whatever, it is about serving others.

- And leaders eat last.

(chuckles) You know, that phrase always comes in.

We've got to put others before ourselves.

Well, our final panelist this evening is Doug Fouts.

He's vice president of marketing at Pearl Companies.

Doug, we wanna know, you know the question now.

You got to be last.

(Doug laughing) So you've got the really good answer.

- They took all the good answers.

(Amy laughs) - The difference between a boss and a leader, from your perspective.

- I think in the broadest sense, a boss, when you think of a boss, you think of somebody that you would follow because they've been vested with a title.

They have authority over you.

And so, you do what they say simply because they're the ones that are directly affecting your employment at times.

And I think from a leadership standpoint, a leader is somebody that you would choose to follow regardless of whether they had the title or not.

And I think that's an important distinction.

Leadership is something that you choose to take on rather than having the authority vested in you because of or by virtue of a title, so to speak.

So I think that when you're talking about a leader, a leader is somebody that genuinely cares about the people that are underneath them and is all about figuring out how to match their calling to the purpose of the organization that they serve.

- I love that.

A calling.

Because I always say leadership is a calling.

Because none of us in our right minds would choose it.

(Doug and Amy chuckle) I mean, because it is so difficult.

You know, the buck stops.

Everything rises and falls on leadership.

And so, these are challenging times.

So Theresa, I want to get to go back to you for a moment and say in helping others and growing others to recognize the difference between a boss and a leader, what do you do?

Because many times, when you have those mid-level managers, they just think they're trying to tell people what to get done.

But that's more of being that boss instead of being the leader.

How do you help grow those people?

- It is about how do you distinguish that.

Because there are times that you need to be a boss, right?

There are times you need to get something done.

You know, if it's your five-year-old, you say, "Please make your bed.

"Don't argue, but just make your bed," right?

As they get older, then you talk about why they're doing it.

Because they're contributing to the family, right?

Same thing happens when you're in your employment and in your, you know, whether it's volunteer, it really is about then understanding what it is that you need to do and how you contribute.

Why are you valuable, right?

Everybody, you know, contributes to the overall goal and the mission of an organization and a business.

So it's important then to spend the time with those mid-level people.

It's not about telling you what to do because you're the boss, it's about then having you feel part of it.

And you want to be part of a team that accomplishes something bigger, right?

You keep talking.

You keep talking about the goals.

And you help them and ask them, "How can I help you?

"How can I serve?"

It's about that service again.

"What can I do to help you do your job and grow?

"What obstacles can I remove?

"Well, what can I do?"

And so again, once you do that, people know at whatever level, when it's genuine and you really are concerned and care about them as a person and growing and helping them grow as a leader and helping them grow in the organization.

So again, kind of the same principle I go back to regardless of the circumstances that I find myself in.

- Sid, let's talk a little bit.

When you first, in your early days of leadership, was it hard for you to differentiate between being a boss and being a leader?

- I think it's always hard in that way because it's quicker to be a boss.

And I think it comes more natural to some people to immediately think, "Let me just get this done.

"And if I can demand, if I can push forward, "if I can just be able to get the thing done, "then my day is complete, my project is complete."

But for a leader, it really comes back to inspiration.

And there's satisfaction in that for the full team because they understand the ultimate goal, which is the vision, the mission of why you're there, what the service is about.

And that can happen in any sort of product.

In my daily life, I'm involved in restaurants.

And so, sometimes you think that it's about actual food product, but it isn't.

If you take that mission back to what your restaurant or your organization can do within the community and have that as sort of your overriding goal that everybody has, whatever their service, then they understand the larger picture.

And what you're gonna see, there's a lot of satisfaction from people because they understand how that plays in the broader sense.

You'll also see inspiration and ideas start to bubble up because it's not just about getting to the finish line.

- Getting to the finish line.

But it's exciting when we get there.

Here are seven differences between a boss and a leader from Villanova University.

"Leaders lead.

"Bosses push.

"Leaders listen, then speak.

"Leaders offer equality.

"And leaders roll up their sleeves.

"Leaders don't scold.

"Leaders don't need fear.

"And leaders invest time."

So from all those, I wanna give you guys an opportunity to say what seems to be the hardest to deal with.

Is it investing time?

Is it not scolding?

It's that equality?

Listening before we speak?

And let's see, who wants to be first?

Doug, let's let you be first.

(Doug chuckles) - You know, I think the hardest part of leadership sometimes and one of the most important parts, is identifying for your people the hills that you have to climb together and then the hills you die on.

So it's establishing, you know, your processes and your procedures, opinions, those are things that may change on a regular basis.

But the hills that you die on, establishing cultural pillars, listening to your people to help establish those things, taking that time to make investment in your people one of those pillars, that's sometimes is the most difficult, but it's the most rewarding.

And when you spend time on that, there's this sort of this idea that if you do that, you're taking your eye off the ball and the management of those processes and the production of whatever it is that you're producing.

And the reality is when you spend time on identifying those hills to die on and establishing those cultural pillars, everything else improves.

Everything works more efficiently, and suddenly you're more productive than you ever were before.

But that sometimes is the most important, the most time-consuming thing about leadership.

- Absolutely.

Theresa, talk to us about investing time in your people, 'cause that's such a sign of being a leader and not just a boss.

- Yes, and it goes to, again, as the qualities, that we've heard all these words in terms that are so true.

But you know, really it is about listening.

And then, you know, you think about listening, and that's the most important communication skill that we can have with our teams.

But does that take time?

Yes.

So when someone is in crisis mode, whether it's, like I said, personal, family, work, they need you to listen then and there.

Now, was that on my to-do list for the day?

Absolutely not.

(Amy laughs) - It never is.

- It never is.

But that's probably the most important thing then that I can do that day.

If it's something that's not crisis mode, then you're like, "Okay, can we talk about this "over lunch or tomorrow at 10:00 a.m.?"

Okay, then know when you can do that and when you don't.

And so whether it's, like I said, volunteer, your family, and all that, just have that sense and know when it is that they need you to listen and be there for 'em.

And again, it goes, not on my list that day.

But at the end of the day, I'm like, "That was probably the most important thing "that I did in a day."

And it brings me a great deal of satisfaction as well.

But, you know, it's that time, it's that balance.

Everything's a balance between boss and leader and time listening.

It really is a balance.

And it's knowing when to do that.

But it is about doing the right thing for the right reasons.

And then it's, yeah.

- Sid, talk to us a little bit about what it means as a leader to roll up your sleeves.

- There are a lot of attributes that you start to really realize with a team.

And it comes back to that word investment.

Because you start to acknowledge the fact that there's a conversation that happens as you're working through a process.

It challenges us a lot of times because it may mean that there are better ways to do things or other pieces that need to come into play.

And when you roll up your sleeves, the conversations will happen a lot easier.

The investment of time, to be able to be there, will be paid off because as a leader in the organization, you will challenge your own norms, your own thought processes on how it should be done, because there will be an equality of decision-making.

And that, sometimes, for the boss and the person who wants to strictly be a boss becomes very uncomfortable.

Because it's a challenging situation, again, because they may not see that investment in time as being relative to the overall project.

But longterm, if you invest the time, you invest the energy, you roll up your sleeves with your team, what you will find is when those larger projects come in, when the more difficult situations come in, they're a lot easier to be able to get over those areas.

- Walmart founder Sam Walton said, "Outstanding leaders go out of their way "to boost the self-esteem of their personnel.

"Now, if people believe in themselves, "it's amazing what they can accomplish."

So let's talk about boosting the self-esteem of the people who report to us.

And Doug, I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

- Well, I think, again, going back to what we said in the beginning is one of the most important roles is finding that person's calling.

They may come in with a real strong sense of what they feel their life's purpose is, but sometimes they don't.

Sometimes they come in thinking this is just going to be a job.

And so listening to them.

And if you wanna boost their morale, you take the time, a we've talked about, to invest in listening to them, to find out.

That calling sort of comes at the juxtaposition of finding out and helping them identify who they really are, what really matters to them the most, and then the opportunity to show what they're really capable of.

When you do that, when you find the intersection of all those things, and then you find you've got that ability to plug that into the purpose and the why of why your company or your organization exists, the morale is going to improve because suddenly this isn't just a job.

You're not just punching a clock to put food on your table.

Now, all of a sudden you're a part of something bigger than yourself.

You're moored to a purpose that that gives food to your soul rather than just food on the table.

- Food to your soul.

I mean, you know, that always makes you smile.

You just can't help but smile when you share that, Sid, talk to us a little bit about that.

As you're developing people, it's not always easy to help them tap into, you know, this is a destiny, this is a calling, finding your purpose in life.

And that difference between a boss and a leader.

If we can people find that, it really opens up so many doors for them.

How do you do that?

- You know, for myself, again, it comes back to that investment in time.

You can't really be able to either recognize or to be able to have somebody grow if you've not put in the time and listened to where they are.

And to listen to even the things that they may not realize about themselves.

Because sometimes the greatest potential an individual has may be something that they have sort of put on the side because they don't think that they're good at it.

And so, by being able to recognize that and to be able to help fill the gaps so that they can decide where best that they perform is extremely important.

But what I think is also good is that we don't early on pigeonhole somebody into where we think they should be.

We need to be able to allow our vision for them to be as broad as possible, to listen to what they're bringing to the table, and to see a different future for them as well.

And, again, I think that's the hardest part about being a leader and a boss.

Because sometimes, that gets a little scary If you just want to keep your team together and you're afraid of letting people really grow and sometimes leave and go on to do different things.

Because sometimes we also find that their fulfillment may be in another realm.

They may decide to carry on their personal mission in a very different way.

And we have to be okay with it.

- Sid, is there a difference between leaders and bosses in government service, like as a councilman, versus your private sector job in restaurants?

- I think there's a huge difference.

And it really comes down to the listening aspect.

Because at the end of the day, as a leader, we are leading a community to be able to service the full community.

And that really comes down to listening.

And it may not be the most popular.

It may not be the people with the loudest voices.

But it's the voices that you need to hear that allows us to be able to figure out what that mission is.

As a boss, that attitude would be, again, "Let's just be able to get this project done.

"I know what's best for."

And without that community involvement, the community input, the projects usually are not successful, they are not as impactful, and they don't have the longterm sustainability that they should.

- Theresa, let's continue on that conversation for just a moment about the listening and the difference in listening between leaders and bosses.

And how do you see it playing out in your organization?

- How do I see it playing out in my organization?

Again, you know, I would say to you that one of the things that I've learned the most from working, and I had served as a volunteer with OSF in Children's Hospital for years, but really about listening.

Listening, but asking right questions.

And so, recently I had someone that I respect very much and I work with very closely with Children's Hospital ask, "When is the last time you asked your team "and who you work with, "when was the last time you asked them "not what they're good at, "not what they think they're good at, "but what is it that they love to do.

"What brings them joy and passion?"

And so, that's kind of been the gist of this conversation so far.

That's a pretty simple question, but we don't do that.

And it hit me.

I thought, "I don't think I've ever asked anyone.

"I don't think I've ever asked them."

You know, "We know you're great.

"You are great at doing this.

"So that's how we've pigeonholed you," right?

Or put you in.

"But what do you love doing?

"What brings you joy?"

And when you ask that question of people, it's eyeopening.

And it isn't the same thing necessarily, right?

So it isn't about us saying, "We think.

"Trust us, trust me.

"I know where you should be doing "and how you can help the organization."

But rather, you know, "How do you see yourself "fitting in, helping the organization?"

And sometimes it isn't where you are, and it means letting them go, right?

Let them soar and let them.

And you know, there's such a sense of pride when you see that happen.

You know, again, it's kind of like your kids, right?

You see that and you do it.

There's such a sense of pride in that.

But if we did that more then, and stopped worrying about the task at hand, which is what we have to do as bosses, the project, the goal, the deadline, but then more about, "Gosh, "how do we make this be the best team possible "by having people do what they love doing "and what brings them joy, "not necessarily what they think they're good at "or what we think they're good at or their strengths are."

- You know, but you bring up a big point that I just want some quick answers from each of you.

And then, then we'll move on.

But on some level, as a leader, we all kinda bounce back and forth between a leader and a boss, true or false?

Sid?

- True, true.

- Theresa?

- True.

- True.

- Yeah.

So that's the hardest thing, because there are things, as you said, Theresa, that have to get done in a day.

We have to accomplish that to move the organization forward.

But when you take the time to go back.

And I've had to let people go as a leader.

And it still to this day is not an easy thing.

But when you set them free, I've always said that, when you set them free to find their passion and to soar, it really does make your heart sing.

And that's something that we can all do as a leader.

Sid, I wanna come back to you for a second.

Talk to us, do you think there's a misconception from people who aren't leaders in organizations about the role of a boss versus a leader?

Do you think the average person understands the difference?

- I think sometimes people assume that it's the autocratic way that commands respect, that creates leadership.

And I think it's just the opposite way.

It's usually the softer voice.

It's the time invested.

It's the listening.

It's the directional piece in truly being able to form a team and a vision that creates that leadership piece.

And oftentimes, I think when we look at time, and it really comes down to time, we think that it's easy to develop leadership by short-cutting and demanding.

Leadership is never built that way.

And leadership should never be about the person, but the overall output, what that goal is for the larger sense.

Myself, for example, what it means for the community.

Or what it means for a neighborhood.

Or what it means for an organization to be able to have an impact on a certain population or a certain group.

But we often think that the loudest voice is leader.

And it's usually not.

- Doug, talk to us.

In the organization, in people who aren't in leadership roles, do you see them struggling with the difference between boss versus leader?

- Absolutely.

I think it's something that they feel.

And I think a lot of times when you're hiring someone, they bring a lot of baggage with them from what they've experienced in past positions.

And so, they come thinking that every place is the same and what they're walking into is going to be a boss.

And boss unfortunately has that negative connotation a lot of times as someone that just simply tells me what to do and then thinks of me as a position or a task that I'm going to perform and kind of pull that lever eight hours a day, punch in, punch out.

And I think that they're hoping.

Most people, if you ask them, "Would you like to have a position "where culture matters, your own calling matters?"

They would say, "Yeah, that'd be great."

But most of them don't believe it exists in a lot of cases, which is unfortunate.

So they walk in already wanting to be shown that leadership actually exists and prevails within the organization that they're choosing to work in.

Leadership has to be defined for them.

So setting up essential leadership actions and posting them not as just pieces, you know, a poster on the wall, but making sure that comes back to allowing them the latitude to say, "Hold us accountable "to these essential leadership actions.

"We're telling you this is how we define it "within our organization.

"We're telling you now to hold us accountable to that."

That instills confidence and inspires and gives that sense of open culture that says, "Okay, if there's a violation "of what you're telling me leadership is here, "I have the ability to come and say something about it "and actually make a difference or make a change."

- Okay, so final question, my friends.

We've got to wrap this up.

But I wanna wrap this up with advice.

What is the advice each of you would give to someone watching, sitting on their comfy couch at home right now.

And we'll begin with Theresa.

What advice do they need to know about the difference between a boss and a leader?

- The difference is it's not about me.

It's not about myself.

It's about you.

And so, you know, to lead us to serve, I truly believe that.

And I go back to that in all circumstances and cases.

And it's profoundly simple.

Serve others.

- Sid, your advice.

- To take the time to step back from those situations in which we've had to step into as boss.

Come back, reevaluate, and look at it from a leadership position.

Because at the end of the day, you will find that it is a lot more satisfaction within yourself on those hours that you've invested as leadership.

Because it really does, it plays well for your soul, plays well for your heart.

And it actually gives you a larger purpose of what you have put your time into.

- Excellent.

Doug, you get the final word, my friend.

Your advice for people watching at home.

- I would say do your best to create a workplace.

You get people that are going to be spending a significant amount of their time in their life.

They've got to come home at the end of every day and look themselves in the mirror and say, "Okay, I just exchanged eight hours of my life, "for what I just did.

"Was that trade worth it?"

So the best thing you can do as a leader is establish a workplace that people feel like is a home, where they're comfortable, where they're cared about.

That's what home represents, where I can go and be comfortable and feel like there are people to my right, to my left, above and beneath me that care about me, and that what I do makes a difference and matters, that my life matters inherently.

If you do that, and plug their skills and abilities into that, now all the sudden, that's not a place that they go to to say, "I've got to punch the clock."

Now it's something that they can dedicate themselves to.

Now there's loyalty beyond just adherence to company policy.

Suddenly that becomes a whole new realm in their life that they actually want to invest themselves into.

- Such great advice.

Well, let's thank each of our guests for helping us better understand the difference between being a boss and a leader.

Next week, we're talking about accountability and leadership.

I hope to see you then.

Good night, my friends.

(lively music)