(upbeat music) - Welcome to "Business Forward."

I'm your host, Matt George.

It's gonna be a fun show tonight.

Joining me tonight, I'm excited to welcome Kevin Moody, Owner of KAM Shooting Sports in Morton, and Mike McCoy, Chief of Police in Washington and long-time St. Jude supporter, former Peoria County Sheriff.

He's done it all.

So guys, thanks for coming on.

Kevin, Mike, welcome to "Business Forward."

- Nice to be here.

Thanks Matt.

- Well, we're gonna talk about guns.

Okay?

So, this can be a controversial topic, but we're gonna look at one aspect of guns that gets overlooked, and that sport shooting.

Okay?

It's growing all over the country and right here in Central Illinois.

We have two experts in the studio with us to talk about business and the laws that govern it.

Kevin and Mike, here we go.

First off, Kevin, tell us about KAM Shooting Sports.

I read all about it, but you're the owner.

Tell me what it means.

- Well, KAM means Kevin and Moody.

It was an idea that my dad and I had years ago.

My dad passed away few years back and I decided to go ahead and try to do it on my own.

It's an indoor shooting range.

There isn't many shooting ranges around.

There's only a few in the area.

And I figured one in Tazewell County would be a perfect spot.

So, I expanded my little gun shop into a gun shop and indoor shooting range.

And I liked to look at it as an education center, more than just a shooting range.

We offer a lot of classes, NRA classes, concealed carry classes, one-on-one instruction.

We try to get the new shooters in there and promote the sport as much as we can.

- For somebody like me that shot a gun one time at a fundraiser, how do you get somebody like me into the sport or into what you do?

- It depends on what you're interested in.

- Yeah.

- I mean, there's a plethora of sports to shoot.

We offer leagues.

Again, we offer one-on-one instruction.

You can come in and shoot a BB gun if you want.

We have rental firearms.

You can try a variety of them.

You can come in with a friend, come in with Mike, you can come in on your own.

The big thing is everybody's welcome.

We want you in there.

We want you to feel comfortable.

We want you to shoot.

- Yeah, and you mentioned your father, and Mike, your father had a big part in your career too.

So, there's kind of a common theme here, right?

- Right.

I just wanna say Kevin's got a great place over there.

A lot of police departments go there.

All of our guys go there for certain qualifications.

It's a class place that does really good instruction especially in the sports shooting area and law enforcement shooting.

- Okay.

So, how many employees do you have at a place like this?

- Seven right now.

- Okay.

And so, that includes instructional teachers and things?

- It does, we should actually have more.

We, with COVID and things having to be shut down, we've had a big slow down and then of course a ramp up.

So, normally we're run with about 10.

- Okay.

- Yeah.

- And so Mike, you've been in law enforcement for many years.

You've dealt with guns from just about every angle that you can think of, but what does the interest in shooting sports mean for law enforcement?

Is there a tie?

- Oh, sure.

We have mandatory qualifications twice a year.

So, you wanna qualify or you're not gonna be able to carry a gun, which means you're not gonna be able to be a police officer.

So, to be able to go to a place like KAMS and shoot or shooting outdoor at some of the ranges they have outdoors, keeps the police practice, keeps them up, keeps them proficient, which is what we all have to do twice a year.

And you have to qualify.

So, it's important that we'd go out and do that.

- And obviously safety is a huge piece of that.

- Safety is a huge piece, that before you start every section you do it at KAMS, you do it everywhere.

They talk about safety.

They go over the rules, whether you've been there once or a thousand times.

So, it's important.

- Yeah.

And so, do you have competition Kevin in the business that you have?

I mean, you said one of the few, but I've heard of other ranges before.

What's your competition around- - There's one in North Peoria.

There's one in Bloomington.

- Bloomington.

- Yes, as far as indoor shooting range shop.

- Okay.

All right.

So, when you're looking at gun laws and either if you can tackle this question, but why is Illinois, I hear so many things about the state of Illinois and FOID card and different things that you have to have.

Is it harder to get a gun or shoot in Illinois than other states?

Is that a true statement?

- It's one of the only states with a FOID card.

No other state in the nation has a FOID card.

They have permits, they have purchase cards.

In some states, I have to go talk to the police department and get a permit.

Some states they issue a permit like a card.

But a FOID card is meant for possession.

You have to have a FOID card in order to possess a firearm period.

So, if you bought it out of another state, if you moved to Illinois, whatever, you have to get a FOID card in order to possess a firearm.

We're the only stay with that.

So, that's one restriction.

- Okay.

- The other, and that lays down a person-to-person transfers.

So, if Mike and I were to sell a gun to each other personally, instead of going through a dealer, he has to have a FOID card, I have to have a FOID card.

Even though he's a police officer, he still has to have a FOID card.

So, it just something that we, it's a restriction that no other state has.

- And FOID is Firearm Owners Identification.

- Okay.

- So, it's just a way to identify who's gonna be purchasing and trading guns and using guns in the state of Illinois.

- So, it's a good thing, right?

- Yeah, for police, it's a good thing.

- For police, it's good thing.

Okay.

So, but it's just kind of interesting we're the only state that has something like that.

Are there similar programs, I'm guessing?

- There are.

I don't think it's called the same thing, but in some states you have to have a certain card like Kevin says, to be able to transfer a gun and to buy a gun.

- Okay.

So, here is something that I've read about.

You hear about as a hot topic all the time.

And I'm gonna start with you, Mike.

Concealed carry law.

What does that even mean?

- Well, it means in Illinois, if you get a carry conceal permit, if you apply and get assigned to one by the state, that means that you can carry a handgun, but it has to be concealed.

And that means concealed.

It's not like Arizona or some of the other states where you just strap on a gun.

And there are states that you can do that.

- Yeah, I've been to Arizona.

Yeah.

- Yeah, and Illinois is one of them that you can't do that.

But you do have the right to carry it concealed on your back, on your side, on your leg, wherever you would wanna do.

- And so, if yours is not really concealed on me, you can get in trouble?

What's considered concealed?

What does that mean?

- Well, concealed means if, for example, if you pull a sweater over it, you have a sport coat and you have it covered up.

Not concealed, if you have the bottom of it showing, you're probably not gonna get bothered, but it has to be hidden in some way.

- Okay.

All right.

Does it have any effect on your business?

Are you asked about this or is this just common knowledge with gun knowledge?

- We provide the training.

We provide the concealed carry training.

And Chief is exactly correct.

Concealed means the gun has to be covered.

Open carry is you can see it.

It's on the side.

It's a John Wayne cowboy carry, however you wanna call it.

But the yeah, concealed carry is a big part of our business.

People do wanna get their concealed carry permits.

You're also allowed to carry in your vehicle.

So that a lot of people that travel, they'd have to stop places late at night or whatever, they get their concealed carry permit.

Because it is honored by, I believe 28 other states now.

Illinois is honored by 28 other states.

- Carrying concealed is a big deal.

The class is a two-day class.

It's a very informational class.

It's very structured.

There are certain things that you have to do to pass the test.

Plus you have to qualify to pass the test.

You have to be able to shoot the weapon that you bring.

So, having that is, even though it sounds like big brother and everything else to some people, it's good to have.

- Well, I guess on the flip side though, if you're in law enforcement, it also can be scary, right?

Because you could pull someone overspeeding and next thing you know, they're concealed (laughs) or concealing, right?

- And most of the time policemen are asking that question now on traffic stops.

- Well, that's what I was wondering.

Because I've noticed different things of even police officers coming to other sides and double cars sometimes and being extra careful.

Is that one of the reasons why?

- Absolutely.

- Okay.

All right.

So, there's been a big uptick, Kevin, of women buying guns.

Is that right?

- Been the uptick for a few years now.

Yes.

- And why is that?

- I think they're tired of being victims.

Yeah, women are the number one gun buyers in the country.

Have been for quite some time.

We offer a program at KAMS called Women On Target.

It's for the girls that are new to shooting.

It's a class taught by women.

They get a little bag of goodies when they come in and get a tote and they get to talk about guns and meet other women that carry.

They carry differently than men do.

Like Chief was saying, we carry on our hamper and on a leg or something like that.

Women carry in their purse.

They carry in their car.

They accessorize differently than we do.

But yeah, women have been a big gun buyers a long time.

- Interesting.

Are there any other age groups that are hot buyers right now?

- We had junior shooters are up and coming.

We're getting some junior shooters.

And we run a, one of the sports we run at KAMS, one of these is called USPSA, United States Practical Shooting Association.

So, that's kind of running from spot to spot to hit targets.

We have a lot of women that compete in that.

As a matter of fact, the USP has a grand master in the United States is a woman.

So, yeah.

- Okay.

So, personal protection, we've talked about that.

And that's I guess one of the obvious ones.

But some of the other reasons is hunting, especially around middle Illinois.

It's it's huge.

And are you a Hunter, Mike?

- No.

- No.

Mike that kind of surprises me, but I'm guessing you are.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- Yeah.

So, is there a whole set of rules in hunting that are different than- - Yes.

Yeah, there's DNR laws and that's with every state.

So, if you wanna look at concealed carry law for a state, you go to the state police website of that state.

So, if you wanna know what the concealed carry laws are in Missouri, you go to the Missouri State police website.

For Illinois, it's Illinois State police website.

If you wanna know about the hunting laws, then you need to go to their DNR or game commission.

Whoever handles their state wildlife.

- Yeah, so I know a lot of people who they're getting their young sons and daughters into hunting, and I guess the safety classes for this are extremely hard and serious for obvious reasons.

But I think it seems like to me from everything that I've heard, is that safety whether it's handgun or for hunting or whatever, it may be safety is number one period now.

And maybe there was a little lax 20 years ago or something or wasn't as lipped on us as much.

But it just seems that way.

- Safety has always been the number one.

- Okay.

- If you buy your first gun for me, we always go through safe handling, safe storage, right?

And we go through all the safety rules, no matter what.

And just like Chief said, every time you walk in the door, you have to know the safety rules, right?

There's three main safety rules: safe direction, finger off the trigger, don't load the gun until you're ready to use it.

You follow those three safety rules at all times, nobody gets hurt.

For hunting, it's the same thing.

But there's more rules along with hunting.

Know your target, no one is beyond.

Part of the hunter safety course is the don't shoot video where they'll have an animal walking in the woods and they'll say, and they'll turn it off and they'll say, do you shoot or you don't shoot?

There's a reason why hunters wear blaze orange.

So, you can see another guy in the woods who might be a hundred yards beyond your target.

If you miss or even if that bullet does hit your target, it's still gonna travel that other hundred yards.

You could hit that other hunter.

So yeah, the safety rules and the DNR hunter safety class is very important.

It's offered by the DNR.

It's free.

- Okay.

- They don't charge you money.

They set you up for it.

They license you for it.

And the DNR will come in and help you with it.

- Yeah, the person I was talking to was saying that they even had someone going around as they were hunting and checking all of the kids whether they were legal or not.

And so, I found that just kind of interesting.

- They'll check your permits.

And actually in some states, you gotta hang your permit on your back.

- Oh wow.

Okay.

- You gotta wear it on your hunting coat.

- So Mike, what do you think about young people learning about guns?

Because I know young people, there's a devil side of this too, right?

- Yeah, I think the young people is good.

And you talked about safety.

I think safety has become so predominant because the number of people that have guns now as compared to how many people had guns 20 years ago.

20 years ago you would go out with a group of friends and the first question would never come up is, okay, who's carrying tonight.

Now that's a question with about every group of people that go out in the evening.

- In your crowd.

(laughs) - Okay, in my crowd, (laughs) obviously.

- Not mine.

But go ahead.

- No, and I think that, back to the safety, that's why it's so out there now.

So, people are talking about it so much.

- So, that kinda goes back to you, Kevin, what we were talking about earlier is this industry, what Mike just said, it's blown up.

- Yeah, it has.

It has very recently.

Over the last few years, I think 2020 numbers just came out.

There was 39.7 million background checks run, federal background checks run - 39.7 million?

- Yep.

And that could be for one gun or it could be for five.

It's per purchase.

- That is crazy.

- Yeah.

- That is crazy.

Wow.

So, from the law enforcement side, because I'm hearing it from a friend of mine who hunts that they can't go to the store and get ammo right now.

Is that true?

- That's true.

Ammo is in just tremendous demand right now.

- I mean, here's what I heard.

They're going down South at holiday time and they'd stop in this city and then they'd stop at the next place.

And they just tried to pick up things as they went all the way down to Florida.

- It's the same for police to practice.

If you have a caliber gun like I do at Washington, that we don't buy ammunition for trying to find the caliber that I have in stores is almost impossible right now.

- So, is from me, I'm gonna get back to this with you, Kevin, but something just popped in my head.

So, you've been in law enforcement many years.

Do you have like a favorite type of gun that you carry?

Or do police officers just have the same gun or do they?

- No.

- Okay.

- Most police departments, individuals are allowed to carry nine millimeters, 40 caliber, 45 caliber handguns.

And it's sometimes it's limited.

The maker or the manufacturer is not limited in most places.

But the larger departments, some state police agencies in the country, they provide handguns.

They still do.

But most local departments, a person's responsible for his own handgun.

- And so, they own that gun.

- They own that gun.

- Wow.

And there's no limit to how many guns you have?

I mean- - No.

- Oh, that's interesting.

All right.

So, back to the ammo question.

So, that affects a business that's growing.

- Yeah, that affects my business a lot.

Ammo has quadrupled in price.

I've had to go to suppliers I never thought I would have to go to, to get ammunition.

I can't get it through my normal avenues.

Normally I go to my wholesaler.

I look them up on the internet.

If I need to buy a case or 40 caliber.

Or Chief calls me up one day says, "Hey, I need a couple of cases in 45."

- I do, by the way.

- Yeah.

(laughs) - So, I make that call.

(laughs) - I used to be able to just call my supplier and say, and just order it.

Now it's tough.

Now I have to order it by pallet.

I have to order it 50,000 rounds at a time.

It's become a big one.

And I think it's because of all the new gun buyers.

We went from 28 million NICS checks to 39.7 million in one year.

Prior to that, it was usually around 20, 21 million NICS checks run a year on a normal basis.

So, we've doubled.

- What's NICS checks?

- NICS is the background check.

The National Instant Criminal Check System.

- Okay.

All right.

- So, when you have all those new gun buyers, I think in June, they said we had 7 million by June brand new first-time gun buyers.

If every one of those gun buyers also buys a hundred rounds of ammunition, that's a billion rounds.

Then Remington went out of business this year.

And Remington was one of the largest ammunition manufacturers in the country.

- Man, that's a brand.

- Right.

And then COVID shut down a lot of production in general.

A lot of production plants couldn't operate because of COVID.

So, you have millions of new gun buyers then you have millions of rounds not being made.

- That is crazy.

- Yeah.

- I never, I mean, I really, I read about it, but I never really thought about how it really could affect law enforcement if you think about it.

- It does.

And what it also affects is the people that wanna go and practice and become proficient which is what we want people to do if they're gonna have a carry concealed permit and a FOID card.

We want them to be able to practice and go to places and shoot.

And it's been a hindrance on law enforcement and the people that have the ranges.

- So, a typical officer shoots how many times a month just to practice?

- Probably once or twice a month.

- Okay.

- And sometimes more.

Some of them are in some of the KAMS leagues over there that they have.

They have police officers that shoot in the leagues once a week.

- Yeah.

- So, it just depends.

- All right.

That sounds kinda fun.

- We have officers from a lot of departments that come in.

- Wow.

Wow.

So, when is the catch-up of ammo gonna happen?

I mean, do you know the industry enough to- - I don't know.

I go to a local guy that does re-manufactured ammunition.

He's in Ottawa.

I drove up there last week and got some ammo from him.

The big issue was primers.

It's one of the components needed to make ammo.

Because the plant was shut down.

Remington was one of the larger manufacturers of that.

So, they couldn't find primers to make the bullets with.

They ran out of them.

So, he's been buying his primers from Serbia.

- That's crazy.

- And he's been buying components.

You can't get powder.

We can't sell reloading components.

It's pretty- - I would never have guessed.

And COVID is probably a big piece of that.

- Right.

I sold my brass, my expended brass at the end of the day, we get buckets of brass from the range.

And I sell for buck a pound or whatever the going scrap rate is.

I've had guys come in, buying it two, 300.

I had one guy buy a thousand pounds brass.

- So, is hunting considered a sport?

- Oh yeah.

- Okay.

- Absolutely.

- I thought it was.

And so, why do people get involved with these types of sports?

I mean, is there a, I'm asking from a former athlete who's now older, but never did this type of sport.

So, I know the feel of other sports, but is it that same competitiveness and- - Well, in hunting, not really.

Hunting is usually something that's, my dad took me hunting, my grandfather took me hunting, just like going fishing.

That was a little bit different.

But as far as the shooting sports goes, as far as like collecting or shooting or anything to do with guns other than hunting, that's usually somebody just finds an interest in.

They might come shooting for the first time and think, "Hey, this is fun.

I wanna come back and try USPSA."

Or, "I wanna shoot steel challenge."

Or, "I wanna shoot bowling pins."

Or I wanna shoot whatever happens to come up that they have fun with.

- Yeah.

- But your question about being competitive is I know in the police departments and police agencies, it gets very competitive.

- Yeah.

- It gets very, very competitive.

- And so, they track and whoever becomes the best shooter or whatever.

- They track who the best shooter is.

And it sometimes changes from week to week.

But it helps maintain proficiency because if you're gonna be part of that, then you have to practice.

- Yeah, it goes back to when I had you meet that friend of mine on SEAL Team Six and he told you a story once.

And he said, "Yeah, there were 90 people on my team, SEAL Team Six."

And the question was, "What are you as a sniper, what are you rated?"

And he looked this way and he said, "Well, I'm number one."

- (laughs) That's right.

- (laughs) Pretty interesting.

So, the business aspect of it though, I find amazing because you have a business, you lack ammo, which is a very important piece, but for towns like Morton and Washington, these small businesses are needed right now.

And I think it's a true testament to what you're doing to be able to bring that business to this area.

- It's tough.

I mean, it's tough to get guns right now, too.

I mean, there's a gun shortage.

I can't order guns.

I can't...

I get three or four guns a week and I get requests all the time for guns.

So yeah, to be a small business right now is tough.

It's really tough.

- That's interesting.

- We were supposed to get cut a break on sales tax, that didn't happen.

So, I mean, we still have to pay all our bills even though we had to shut down.

And I had to shut my range down.

I had to shut down.

I can only, for three months, I can only sell guns by appointment.

I had to wait and have people come in one at a time or two at a time.

So, when you're shut down like that and your rent doesn't change, your bills don't change, your orders don't change, your invoices don't go away, it's very difficult to make it as a small business when you have a fraction of the income.

- I think one of the themes in the last few months of this show has been that COVID has really taken down some businesses, but on the flip side too, it's actually invented some new businesses.

And I think that is good and bad.

But to hang in there, we need you to hang in there because it sounds like once this flips, business might spike pretty heavily once you have access to what you need, right?

- I hope so.

I hope so.

- Yeah, I hope so too.

So, Mike, talking about, I'm gonna switch gears one last time.

We have a few minutes left.

But mentors and business and what you do.

And the reason why I'm bringing this up is you both brought up your dads.

My dad's big in my life.

In what you've done in law enforcement, who were some of your mentors or what did they teach you?

And now what do you do to mentor people?

- Well, I think that mine goes back to the '70s when I started on the Sheriff's office.

The thing back there to learn how to do the basic law enforcement things is when I remember from my mentors.

It's not always catching the bank robber, it's helping prevent the bank robber.

And I think that's what I learned from my mentors I think.

And as a Chief, what we try to do is bring the guys along that have a propensity to wanna teach other people to do the law enforcement the right way.

There's a lot of talk about the wrong way for those 0.00, whatever it is that are bad.

There's a lot of talk about them.

But the mentors that we have on our departments, and like going to Kevin's shop, there's mentors there that have helped our guys learn how to be better shots too.

So, I think that mentoring and law enforcement is still one of the key things.

We have field training officers.

If you're a new guy and you come to Washington, after your basic training, you still have six months of mentorship to go through before you are by yourself.

- Wow, that's cool.

I was telling Kevin before the show that 20-some years ago, I moved here to Central Illinois and you became unknowingly, I guess, one of my mentors.

And then stuck with me all those years.

And what I learned most from people like you is not necessarily a skill, but it's really just leadership qualities.

And I think that's what you can teach.

And then now when you relate it to your business, and let's just take kids as an example, kids coming into your, wanting to get into hunting.

So anyway, it's an interesting business.

Here's the deal.

This is only part one because I still have a lot to talk about, but we're running up against the clock.

So, I appreciate it, Mike McCoy, Kevin Moody.

Good luck in your business.

I think you'll be okay.

That was a fun show, everybody.

I'm Matt George and it's another episode of "Business Forward."

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