(bright music) (bright music continues) - A few weeks ago on "At Issue," we talked about some of the challenges facing animal shelters in Central Illinois.

And tonight we want to expand on that and discuss proposed legislation that affects our animals.

Animal welfare advocate, Lauren Malmberg joins us.

She was the animal control administrator for Peoria County for 30 plus years.

Good to see you again.

- Thank you, it's good to see you.

- So you're not necessarily in the trenches anymore, but you're still advocating for animals.

What are you doing these days?

- Right.

Well, I spent 40 years in animal control for both the city and the county of Peoria.

And when I retired, I continued doing training for our two state associations, both in animal control and animal welfare work, and also do some consulting for Cook County animal control and some other parties around the state, so I'm still entrenched.

I do a lot of things with lobbying for legislation in the state legislature as well.

- Well, I wanna talk about some proposed bills that people may not have heard of because they, and just Googling them, it's hard to find articles on these things, but they are out there.

Let's talk first about a state lawmaker who wants to ban euthanization in shelters.

His name is Senator Mike Simmons from Chicago.

And his bill 37-91 would've made it illegal to euthanize dogs and cats.

Now it, from what I have seen, and we didn't get a response back from his campaign, but from what we have seen, he said that, you know, after the pandemic and people were experiencing issues, financially, whatever, they would just get rid of their animals, send them to the shelters.

He doesn't want animals euthanized.

It sounds like his heart is in the right place.

But from what people like yourself have told me, that kind of handcuffs shelters around the state.

So can you talk about that a little bit?

- Sure.

Senator Simmons, he's, we met with him, he's a good guy.

I think what happened is he read an article about how all of the dogs and cats that had adopted when the pandemic first started, you know, 'cause there was a huge rush, and shelters were emptied by people rushing into adopt during COVID.

And when COVID waned and disappeared, or went away and we didn't have the restrictions anymore, people brought those animals back because they resumed their more regular life, and in some cases, couldn't afford it anymore, but in a lot of cases, just changed their mind.

In any case, he heard that there was an overflow of these animals in our shelters and he didn't want to see them euthanized just because the people couldn't keep them anymore.

And that's understandable.

But he directed staff to write a law that would help that.

And essentially wrote one that would eliminate euthanasia for any animal in a facility, which meant anything that was sick, injured, behaviorally unsafe, or unsound for adoption, or for even managing in a shelter environment, which, you know, obviously, euthanasia has to take place.

So it was well-intended, you know?

Meant to serve the animals and the people, but it just was the wrong way to go.

- Well, the bill didn't go anywhere, but let's say it had, I mean, what would that mean for shelters around the state if there was that mandate?

- Unfortunately, it would cripple those shelters and those animal control facilities who are charged with protecting people and animals.

You know, nobody likes to hear it, but euthanasia is sometimes the best course for a particular animal.

There are some animals that are so aggressive, they are unsafe, and cannot be humanely maintained or safely placed into a new home.

Those animals should be euthanized.

There are some animals who are chronically ill that cannot, that are suffering from their illness or disease, and the most humane thing to do is to end that suffering.

There are also others who suffer mentally.

There are animals that are so terrorized or unsocialized, that interaction with people causes them more and more stress and more and more fear.

Those animals benefit from euthanasia.

So when we talk about saving animals, I think we need to include euthanasia as part of that saving 'cause we save a lot of animals from additional suffering and cruelty by euthanizing.

If that law had passed and we were unable to offer that option to people or to animals that are so old that what were we supposed to let them die in the cages in the shelter?

I mean, there are legitimate reasons for euthanasia, and that has to be an option and a tool for shelters and animal control facilities to use.

- I think a lot of people get confused when they hear the term, they know what euthanasia is, but as far as the reasoning, tell us about, you've worked in shelters for a long time.

What is it with the, you know, the population of the shelter?

Is there euthanization because of the fact that there's not enough room for dogs and cats?

Does that ever happen?

- Of course it happens.

And you know, when I entered the field in 1980, yes, I am a hundred years old, we were euthanizing on a nationwide basis, 18 to 20 million dogs and cats a year, every year in the United States.

In the last couple of years, it's estimated that we are euthanizing less than a million.

Less than a million.

So we have made that huge change.

Back when I started, we were euthanizing every day, sometimes as many as 30 or 40 animals simply because there was no space.

And animals were being brought to us in hoards.

Through aggressive enforcement of laws, and affordable spay neuter, and more information to pet owners about proper responsibility for their pet and so forth, we've brought that number down from 18 million to less than a million.

I mean, that's a tremendous accomplishment.

And one that we don't pay enough attention to.

The state of Illinois, I mean, I don't like to use the words "No kill," but if you use the national trend for defining what no kill means, it means that you euthanize less than 10% of your animals.

The state of Illinois as a whole could be considered a no kill state.

We euthanize 90, or we adopt, we have a live release rate of 92% for cats and 94% for dogs.

We're euthanizing less than 10% of both species, the whole statewide.

Now, individually, individual shelters, everybody has different resources, everybody has different challenges.

We have shelters and animal control facilities in the southern part of the state that have no money.

Perhaps they're in a low economic county.

People have different attitudes about animals.

And so it's a real struggle when animals come into that facility to try to find a place for them.

And sometimes they're euthanized simply because there's no place else to go.

But if you don't euthanize and make space, then the next animal that needs assistance can't come in.

And while some people would say it's not a safe haven if the animal's at risk of being euthanized, there's a lot worse waiting for it out there if somebody just turns it loose or ties it up in a junkyard or, I mean, there are a number of things that can happen to animals when they're not provided someplace safe to go and shelter.

- It's an uncomfortable situation, but something that needs to be talked about.

- You know, it is uncomfortable.

And what's unfortunate is that we tend to, as humans, look for a easy push button answer.

And many years ago, we were given this notion that if you just stopped euthanizing, everything would be great.

But you can't, there are so many unintended consequences from stopping that, you know.

So it's much more complicated and nuanced issue than just not euthanizing.

- Let's talk a little bit about another law proposed.

Talk about the Dangerous Animals Act.

- Well, the Dangerous Animals Act is currently under the criminal code and it includes what we consider to be dangerous animals, lions, tigers, bear, hyena, elephant, primates.

And this year there was an attempt to add a few more animals to that list, including servals, which is a wildcat, caracals, another wildcat, wallabies and kangaroos.

There have been a number of incidents throughout Illinois where these animals have, in private pet ownership, have gotten loose and harmed people.

- Decatur, that one cat was loose for a few months, right?

- And they had one in, there were a couple in Northern Illinois where people were actually attacked and bitten.

And so there was an attempt to add those animals to that dangerous animals list.

It got out of the house but didn't get out of the Senate.

So I imagine that will come back in some form again next year, but right now- - Well, what's, what's your opinion on those animals that are already listed in there?

Is that a good thing you think to keep people from owning exotic animals?

- Well, yes.

I mean, wild animals don't have a place in private pet ownership for a couple of reasons.

First of all, there is no vaccine approved for rabies in a wild animal, which means that you can be living with a raccoon, or a fox, or one of the large cats or whatever, but they're at risk of contracting rabies 'cause you can't vaccinate them.

There's no vaccine approved, which presents a threat to your family and the whole community.

It's a public health concern.

On my humane side, I guess, or on my, you know, philosophical side is wild animals don't have a place in private pen ownership.

You can't meet their behavioral and nutritional and psychological needs in a home environment.

These are animals that cover scores of miles a day, who have a established territory, have particular behavioral needs, and we can't meet those in a living room up on Parkside Drive.

You know?

They don't have a place.

Now, federal government recently passed what they call the Big Cat Protection Act, which is essentially taking big cats out of private pet ownership all across the country.

So we tend to be moving that.

The other concern we have with these animals in private pet ownership is twofold, one, if they escape, because who wants to chase down a tiger cub, or a wallaby, or a kangaroo, or whatever.

But the other concern is that if these animals are living in a home environment, first responders are exposed.

If you have a heart attack and somebody needs to come in and provide care for you and you have a wild animal in your home, they're at risk.

- Sure.

- So there are a lot of elements along that wild animal thing.

- Yeah, very interesting.

What other legislation or proposed legislation is on your radar that you've heard of in the state?

- Well, one of the things that's near and dear to our hearts in animal welfare is we wanted to add some penalty and restrictions to the Humane Care for Animals Act so that animals that are living in situations where they're not receiving any care or, you know, food, water, shelter, medical care to prevent suffering are the four things that owner's duties are requiring.

That if you're violating that and it goes so far that you are arrested for it, that we can apply for security posting, and perhaps get the animals out of the situation and not have to hold them for years in a facility while we wait for a court case.

You know, there's so many elements of prosecuting humane care cases, and it can be really frustrating for us.

Yeah, we might get the animal out of the situation, but we may have to hold it for six months to a year in a shelter environment while we wait for the case to go.

On the other hand, we can get the animal out, and if the, out of the situation, and if the owner isn't prosecuted, they oftentimes just go get another dog and start over.

I mean, we haven't solved the problem.

We solved it for that one dog, but- - Sure.

- You know, so there are a lot of complications with prosecuting on those humane care, and we were trying to clear up some of those things in that Humane Care legislation.

- Okay.

How do you think Illinois as a state ranks compared to other states in terms of animal welfare laws and things like that?

- Oh, we're between number two and three in the nation.

- Okay.

- For being as progressive and proactive in our animal welfare laws.

We have some extremely good legislation out there, some extremely effective laws.

The problem is always, as it is, I'm sure with for any enforcement agency, is locating the violator and getting them through the judicial system, and having that kind of an impact and getting a sentencing.

We fight a bigger, a little bigger battle than some of the other, you know, acts, because oftentimes people are like, "Oh, it's just dogs," you know?

"Oh, it's, you know, it's just an animal.

We don't need to worry about that."

But they don't realize that when we're cruel to animals, we are desensitizing ourselves actually, and we're learning to be cruel to living creatures.

And there's a lot of information about how there is a very strong connection how animal abuse can escalate into human violence.

And we need to pay attention to that, and take it very seriously, and not just let it go, deal with it.

- Well, you and I were talking before we hit record about just that, that, you know, kids, if they start out being abusive to animals, there are studies that show as they progress into adulthood that could change over to humans.

- Exactly.

I mean, I think there's documentation out there that every serial killer they've ever identified has admitted to animal abuse in their lifetime.

Not that everybody who will do, who does animal abuse is gonna grow up to be a serial killer, but it is an indication that there's something wrong.

And I mean, I have all kinds of stories of what happened, here in Peoria where we were able to identify serious abuse issues to humans because we first found out about the dog.

We entered one property where a dog, we had a complaint that the dog was tied in the back and there never used to be a dog there.

A neighbor noticed it.

And when we got there and pounded on the door, we could hear somebody calling for help.

And a police officer helped us gain access, and an 85-year-old woman had been laying in there with no care for days because her son has, was taking her check, dropping off a bag of McDonald's every day, and got tired of dealing with the dog, so he just tied it outside and left her.

So he got arrested, she got care, and the animal got relieved.

But nobody would've known about that or could have, I mean, she could have died in there and nobody would've known about what was going on except that a neighbor saw a dog where it shouldn't have been.

I mean, and the incidents of animals being used to coerce children into being quiet about the abuse that they're suffering at the hands of the abuser, they threaten to kill their kitten, or perhaps they killed their kitten in front of them and say, "This will happen to you if you tell what's happening."

Or women, or partners who stay in domestic violence situations 'cause they're afraid of what'll happen to the animals if they leave.

I mean, there are scores of stories about that.

So there is a direct connection between how we treat animals and how we treat people.

- Talking about shelters.

And we've got some great shelters here in central Illinois, and animal control units and things like that.

Besides, obviously, cash, cash is always an issue with a lot of these groups.

What are some of the other issues that you think these folks are facing in terms of trying to, you know, take care of these cats and dogs?

What are some of the obstacles they're looking at?

- Well, it's been my experience that we really haven't changed society's perception about animals all that much.

We had a spurt of high adoptions and lower numbers in our facilities, but when things got bad, we all, every company kinda went back to normal.

And that irresponsible pet ownership, people who don't make a full commitment to animals, or who mistreat them, or who just abdicate all the responsibility.

I think that's every shelter's problem.

You know, that's our core problem is that when people get an animal, they don't keep it for their lifetime.

And then we have, of course, we're facing people who are breeding animals for financial gain.

And I'm not talking about reputable dog fanciers who breed, you know, one litter every three years.

And I'm talking about people who are breeding their female dogs every heat cycle.

So they have, you know, five to 10 puppies that they can sell for a couple hundred dollars and those animals typically end up in a shelter.

- Well, it's been a long time since you've, you're a lifelong Peorian, and I've been here about 18 years, it's been a long time since I've heard about a puppy mill or a dog fighting ring, things like that.

Is that because things are getting better and we're not seeing those?

Or is it just because they're not being caught?

- Well during the, I mean, we had a lot more organized dog fighting in the early eighties and nineties.

And then after the whole Michael Vick thing, and it became less of an organized thing and more of a, I guess you'd call it street fighting.

You know, people would show up in a garage with their two dogs and they'd, you know, bet a little bit of money and they'd, you know, have their dogs fight.

So I don't think it's quite as prevalent, the organized type is quite as prevalent.

Unfortunately, what's happened is with the dogs that were being used for that, bread and used for that, they've kind of taken on a certain status or a certain reputation.

And so they're being used in other ways.

They're being used to guard drugs, they're being used to intimidate people and to doing things.

So it's kind of changed from the actual fighting of dogs, I think, although I'm sure it still goes on.

But we're kind of seeing these poor dogs being overbred, and overused, and encouraged to be aggressive, and, you know, we have police officers having to shoot them to get access to a property, or we have them trying to get the animals away so that they can dig up the drugs that have been buried in the backyard.

I mean, they're used in nefarious ways.

And intimidation for, intimidation against other people.

- I never even thought about that intimidation aspect.

That's scary.

- Oh, we had numerous cases where we, where people would try to intimidate other people either because they had a relationship with them, or because they were neighbors, or whatever by, you know, we say they stick their dog on them, but I mean, they would intimidate them with their aggressive dogs, and be proud of it.

And I, you know, we have the whole issue with the Pit Bulls.

You know, individually, those dogs are just like every other breed.

There are some good ones, there's some bad ones.

The problem with Pit Bull is that they are so overbred and overrepresented in every aspect.

They're overrepresented at the shelters.

If you look through virtually any facility, they're gonna have a number of those, or they're gonna have an overwhelming number of those because those are the animals that aren't selected most of the time.

They're overrepresented in our dog bites, not necessarily because they bite more or are more dangerous, but because there's more of them.

And they're the type of dog that's being used to intimidate people, and they're, you know, they're more light.

They're not generally socialized as some other dogs and so forth.

And again, it's not the dog, it's the owner.

- So with the time we have, I'm gonna ask you a very difficult question.

- Sure.

- With a few minutes left.

How do we get people to be more empathetic, and how do we get them to care?

You know, it seems like, you know, if you get an animal, I just can't imagine getting an animal and then eventually giving it up because I'm tired of it.

That doesn't register with me.

- No, no.

- But some people are like that.

How do we get the message out there that this is a lifetime commitment?

- I don't know.

I heard, when I first started, I heard that they said the average lifespan of a particular pet in one home was three years.

And I'm like, "I've never given up a dog or a cat, and someone like you has not given up a dog or a cat, so for all of people like us, there must be hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people who are giving their animals up for whatever reason."

I think education is highly important.

We are not teaching our children enough about how important these animals are to our lives.

They're here to make our lives better and we have a tremendous responsibility toward them.

And we can't just shirk that responsibility.

The other thing that, so education is a huge important part of it, but the other part of it is, unfortunately, proactive enforcement of the laws that we have.

I mean, people need to be held accountable for their bad behavior.

And, or their behavior against animals if it meets that standard, it's too easy to say, "It's just a dog," or "It doesn't really matter."

It does matter.

But that's kind of like asking, you know, how do we raise kids that are wonderful?

(both laughing) You know, how do we deal with that?

But education and accountability, I would think would be our first starting points.

- And probably a lot more thinking about adopting an animal before you actually do it.

- Oh, absolutely.

I mean, I, you know, having animals all my life, I know what goes into it.

Not only money for food and taking care of them, but, you know, veterinary bills and all that.

But just the inconvenience if you want to... You need to think about those kinds of things.

What are you gonna do if this happens?

What are you gonna do if that happens?

- My cats hate my guts and I still keep them.

(both laughing) - My dog's pouting right now in her crate.

- Oh, is that right?

Yeah.

- "You're gone."

- Yeah, it's a responsibility.

You got to remember that.

Well, Lauren, it was great to see you, and appreciate all the info you gave us today.

- Well, thank you for talking about what you know, it's an important issue for our society.

You know, I can't remember the person who said it, but you know, we are shown to be who we are by how we treat animals and children.

And I wish we were shown to be better than we were right now, so... - I hear you.

Thanks for your time.

- Thank you.

- Welcome back.

We are joined now by our friend, Phil Luciano.

Hey, Phil.

- How you doing?

- I am doing well, thank you very much.

(Phil laughing) We have got, you got to see this coming up, a brand new episode.

What can we look forward to?

- Well, one place we're gonna take it to is called Pizza Payaa.

It's a pizza place.

It's enormal.

They've actually got two spots thereabouts, but, well, what's the big deal about a pizza place?

This place?

Two reasons.

One, they make Detroit style pizza.

Do you know what Detroit style pizza is?

- I love Detroit style.

- Okay, you're the one guy around here who knows.

We'll explain why that's different than other pizzas, and why some people think it's really, really tasty.

And two, this place just won this year multiple awards at an international pizza competition, the big pizza competition in Las Vegas.

And this stuff is great.

And he'll show us how he makes these pizzas, and why it's so much different, and why it's really, really good.

- Very cool.

And I know I've eaten there one time and it was fabulous.

But what I did, I ordered kind of the traditional ingredients, but I know that their menu, they've got a lot of stuff.

- Oh yeah.

- And probably things that you've never tried before.

- It's definitely worth the trip if you're coming from Peoria.

It's a neat place.

And you got a story about, if I understand this right, 'cause I haven't seen it, a hat museum?

- A hat museum here in Central Illinois, which is in a very unique location.

You'll have to watch.

You got to see this to find out what that is.

But yeah, this gentleman, he grew up in Livingston County, moved out to Arizona for 40 years.

Now he's back and retired.

And he just decided to start collecting hats.

- Is it weird hats?

Is it expensive hats, or?

- No, it's just baseball hats that have logos on them.

So you're talking anything from sporting teams to Caterpillar to whatever.

I mean, there's some unique stuff there.

- You're gonna show us.

It's not just 10 hats, right?

It's- - No.

- A lot of hats.

- You got to add a couple zeroes behind there.

- Okay, I wanna see it.

- And he also collects some other things.

We'll show you those.

- Interesting.

Speaking of people with interesting offbeat hobbies, we'll also have a story about feathery golf.

And it's known by other names, too.

But this is golf that people do old, old, old, old school, like way back when before they had, you know, I don't know what balls are made of now, but they're super high tech, right?

- Yeah.

- These are when golf balls were made of feathers, filled with feathers, okay?

And they also use wooden shaft clubs.

And so this is how golf was done long, long, long ago.

And it looks super hard to me.

I bet they seem to have fun.

I mean, it's hard enough to drive a golf ball, but one made of feathers?

Well show you how they do it.

- Now, most importantly, do they dress like the old timey?

- [Phil] They do.

- With the big pull up socks and all that stuff.

- It's kind of a whole period thing.

But you know, it's, there are groups like Civil War reenactors and whatnot, and they're going through those motions, script motion.

This is actual competition.

I mean, they're not cutthroat.

It's not like Caddy Shack or something.

But yeah, they seem to be really into it.

So it's kind of cool.

- "That kangaroo stole my feather ball."

- There you go.

- All right, you got to see this as brand new coming up in just a few minutes.

Thanks for joining us.

Check us out anytime at wtvp.org and on Facebook and Instagram.

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