(upbeat music) - Welcome to Business Forward.

I am your Matt, Matt George.

Joining me tonight, Kevin Moody.

Kevin is the owner of KAM Shooting Sports and Morton.

Why I'm pumped about this tonight is you are the first guest who's been back for a second time.

And after we talked a few months ago, I sat there and I was like, there is probably three or four shows worth of content that we could go down and talk about this controversial topic is guns.

And I think back Kevin, I'm thinking to myself, I don't know right now, if there's a topic that isn't brought up in the news every day more than guns, is that true?

- Probably true.

Yep.

Very fair.

- I mean like, do you go to work and you sit there and you go, "Man, I've got half the people for me and half the people against me."

Do you have a mindset like that?

Or are you just, this is what I do.

- No, I think we need to be welcoming.

We have a lot more people now that care about their second amendment rights than did say a year ago.

Of the three groups in the gun world, you have the people that are pro gun and the people that are anti-gun and then you have the people in the middle that just didn't know much about it and now they wanna know about it.

So we wanna bring those people in.

We wanna teach them about it.

We want more people in our community.

- When you say you want more, is it you want more business obviously.

I don't even wanna go there, but you want more knowledge so people can make their own decision.

Is that education, I guess?

Is that part of?

- We do wanna train more people and our training has gone way up.

I mean, you talked about gun sales or ammo sales.

What's gone up the most are people wanting to learn about guns.

- [Matt] Interesting.

- People wanting to defend themselves.

People seeing what's going on in the world.

People watching things on TV and then coming back and saying, "You know, I never thought I needed a gun before, but now I do."

- Yeah.

So I have a stat here, around half of Americans, 48% see gun violence as a very big problem in the country today.

Now when you turn on the TV and it seems a lot lately, and I'm not going down a political road here, but it just seems like a lot lately, there are just these mass shootings.

And I think that's what gives your business a black eye, so to speak.

Is that fair?

- It does.

It does.

I think that there's, the people need to look at who is conducting these, all these shootings.

These are not your legal gun owners.

These aren't the guy that fills out the paperwork and goes through the background check and goes through everything he has to do to get a firearm.

The law-abiding citizen.

Look at this past weekend in Chicago, how many people were shot, how many people were killed?

How many of those firearms do you think were legally owned, background check run type firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens?

- It's just actually sickening.

I was just reading a stat of just about how many violent shootings are going on in this country.

And I'm not talking just mass shootings.

I'm just talking to one offs too.

- Sure.

- Which are just as bad.

- Absolutely.

- But you know, I think back to our original conversation on safety, I mean, there are...

I heard someone on the news say it's like the wild, wild west in some areas and that doesn't feel good.

- It very well could be.

Have you looked up the statistic where our town falls in as far as dangerous city in the United States.

You look at crime is up 800%, 500%, 300%.

And it's all violent crime.

Now I know they use the word gun crime as a crime that a gun was used.

But what about when a gun wasn't used?

What about a knife?

What about a bat?

What about all these bad things that have happened?

The one-off shootings outnumber the mass shootings tenfold, right?

And again, none of these are law-abiding citizens that are going to fill out their paperwork and getting their background checks run to purchase that firearm.

- Well, let's talk about that.

I know we've discussed this, but so I've never owned a gun in my life, but I now feel like I'm gonna go buy one.

And let's say, I wanna start hunting.

This isn't even just a regular fire.

I go and purchase, try to purchase a gun, I have to fill out the paperwork to get a background check done on me.

Is that correct?

- Yes.

- And then the background check goes to the FBI or?

- It goes to the NICS, National Instant Criminal Check System, which is run by the FBI.

But before you do that in the state of Illinois, you have to get your FOID card.

- So they're not even the same thing.

- No.

- That's what I was confused on.

So, do all states...

I think there's only a few states that do the FOID card.

- Only one state has a FOID card, state of Illinois.

- That's crazy.

So what is the reasoning behind that?

- The FOID card was created in 1968.

So 53 years ago, before the National Instant Criminal Check System existed, they created this FOID card.

Back then it was a good idea because they didn't have another way to do it, right?

So they created the FOID card.

But then the federal government made the NIC system and the background check system and the ATF form 4473 and all these different things you have to fill out to buy a gun.

Those were all created as well around the same time, 1968 by the national firearms act.

So the FOID card is just an antiquated system that really doesn't do anything anymore.

Every other state, how do you get a FOID card?

You get a FOID card by your driver's license number, your name and your birth date.

They run a background check on you to give you a number.

- [Matt] To go get a background check.

- To go get a background check run.

And then that FOID card is also, your name is run every day that you have that FOID card.

Because they have to know when to take it away from you.

So if you go out and commit a crime and get caught, and it's a crime that could take your FOID card away, that you'll get a letter in the mail.

And they'll say, you have to turn in your FOID card because you can't have it anymore because you did something.

So the background checks and you have to have a background check every single time you purchase a firearm.

- So if I needed, if I wanted to buy six guns, I have to get six background checks?

- Yes.

- Okay.

- Yeah.

So if you come in and buy a shotgun for hunting and you decide, well, this is great.

I want another shotgun so I can go shoot trap.

I want a different style of shotgun.

You gotta get another background check run.

If you wanna buy a 22 rifle for your kid to take them to the range, you get another background check run.

So you get a background check run.

Every time you get a gun to get a background check run for your FOID card, you get a background check for your concealed carry license.

- So just playing the other side here, devil's advocate here.

Why is that bad?

- I'm not saying it's bad to do a background check.

What I'm saying is why do we have to run it... - Eight times, whatever.

- Eight million times.

How many times do we need to run a background check on Matt George?

So a lot of states have a card that gets confused to be like a FOID, but it's only used for purchase, right?

So I go get a permit.

It's a handgun permit.

I go down and I get my background check run, and then I'm allowed to buy a firearm because I have this card or this permit that says I've had my background check done.

The FOID card you have to have to possess a firearm, not just buy it.

So you can't even inherit a gun from your grandfather if you don't have a FOID cart.

- So if my grandfather had a 1865 antique gun worth 10 grand, he couldn't give me that gun?

- Nope.

Not without a FOID card.

And now with the new law passed, you actually have to take, your grandfather would have to get on the internet and run a background check on you through the state police website.

And then you would have come down with the bill of sale and the record of that sale to a dealer and record that sale to a dealer and pay $25 as a record keeping fee to a dealer that you received that firearm.

Actually even a BB gun that goes over 700 feet per second, a stun gun or taser in the state of Illinois.

- [Matt] Requires a FOID card.

- Requires a FOID card, yes.

and background check.

- Does a police officer that has a taser and maybe a gun on his ankle or her ankle and a gun holstered up somewhere else, that's three FOID cards?

- No, no.

- But that's three background checks.

- If they own it personally, yeah.

- Personal.

Okay.

That's confusing.

- [Kevin] Right.

- All right.

Americans are divided over whether restricting legal gun ownership would lead to fewer mass shootings.

- What restriction, what regulation gets rid of crime?

- Yeah.

That's what I wanted to ask you about.

- I don't think they do.

No gun...

Restricting the law-abiding doesn't stop the criminal.

The criminals don't follow laws.

I'm sure that, like I said, all the guys in Chicago, there are people in Chicago that were involved in shootings.

I'm sure they were all law-abiding citizens.

I'm sure they all filled out their paperwork and their background checks.

What they're finding now is that most of these criminals that are committing these crimes are out on bond, several bonds, some of them.

So used to be that they kept them in jail.

You're only allowed to have one bail, but now they don't.

Now there allowed to get bonded out and do that.

So no, I think that the restricting the law-abiding citizen is not gonna lower crime.

- Well, I guess here's where I'm getting a little confused.

So like in your business, let's, I mean... Let's say you're selling guns to make money and you...

I was out in Vegas once and there's this show called the Shot Show, which I'm sure you're familiar with.

- It's once a year, yeah.

It's the industry kind of the industry standard, yeah.

- And it's huge.

And how, if there's let's say 50,000 guns underneath that roof and they're trying to sell those, how do you make the sale and actually in an efficient way?

Can you?

- Well, yeah.

The thing is you have to still wait for the background check to come through.

- [Matt] How long does that take?

- It's supposed to be instant.

That's why it's called the National instant Check System.

But sometimes it takes, sometimes it takes three, four, five days.

Now federal law, if your background check does not come back within the three days, I have to give you the firearm.

State law, that doesn't exist in Illinois.

And it's also different because when you run background checks in some states, like Illinois chooses to be what they call a point of contact system.

So all background checks are run through the Illinois state police who in turn, send it through the national system.

I don't know what Nevada's law is as far as if they are a point of sale.

But like a gun show here, if I go to a gun show and I purchase a gun from a dealer, I have to fill out my paperwork.

I still have to do all the same stuff as if I went to a gun store.

It's just a different location.

Location doesn't change the process.

- Okay.

This might be a dumb question.

Can you buy a weapon online?

- No.

Well, you have to have a transfer to a dealer.

You cannot ship a gun to a person.

You have to ship it to an FFL number.

- [Matt] And that's you?

- Again that was instilled in 1968 through the national firearms act.

Prior to that, you might remember, or you might have a grandfather or something like that, that ordered a shotgun out of the Sears catalog.

- Yeah.

I actually do remember.

I do remember that.

- You can't do that anymore.

- I was thinking Amazon.

I was thinking, you know, they have everything in the world, but you can't buy weapons like that.

- No, no.

You can order a gun say through, you know, an online firearms dealer.

Yes.

But that gun has to be shipped to a dealer in which you have to go down and fill out your paperwork.

You can't avoid the background check.

- And I think what kind of the road we started talking here.

I mean, we're talking about shootings and some crime and things, but there's a lot of sport involved with what you do.

I mean, you're talking the Olympics and you're talking hunting, and you're talking skeet shooting, things like that, right?

- Right.

- So how big a business is that right now?

Has it grown?

- I think that's kind of the niche thing.

I mean, are there more hunters now than there were?

I don't know.

I mean, are there more sport shooters?

Are there more guys getting into leagues?

I don't really see that.

What I see is 30 million new gun owners in this country.

- [Matt] 30 million.

- 30 million brand new gun owners in this country to the best of our guess, that anybody can guess but... - Legal gun owners.

- Yes.

Because the NICS check is on the FBI database.

You can go to fbi.gov and you can look up all those statistics on (indistinct) checks run, right?

So Illinois led the pack too on NICS checks run.

So that's how they determine who's a new gun owner.

But no, what we've seen is a huge uptick in self-defense, huge uptick in handgun purchases and a huge uptick in concealed carry licenses.

Everybody wants to get their concealed carry license.

They just don't feel safe.

- So is concealed carry, and I know probably know your opinion, but what's the downfall of it?

Is that there's just more guns on the street?

Is that the mentality of someone that's arguing on the other side?

- As far as the anti-gunners, what do they... Well, I don't think they.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what the downside they see to that is.

My biggest thing is education.

I mean, I I just wanna see people be well-trained if they're gonna carry a firearm.

And they wanna get trained.

You know, these people come in and they wanna be able to defend themselves.

They don't wanna be a victim.

- All right, let's talk about that.

So the training piece.

I want to be trained.

What does that look like?

How does that even start?

- Well, first you have to go get a FOID card.

I have people come into my shop every day and say, "I think I've decided just like that.

I wanna get trained.

I wanna buy a gun."

"Do you have a FOID card?"

And then they look at me funny and say, "What's FOID card?"

And then I have to tell them that they could wait a year for that.

So you could wait a year, 13, there's people waiting anywhere between eight and 15 months.

- I did not know that.

- For a FOID card, yeah.

It's been on the news quite often.

The state police were saying it's only 120 day average, but I could fill this studio with people that have waited longer than a year for FOID card.

Conceal carry cards the same thing.

You go get your, so you get your FOID card.

You have to apply for that online.

Once you get your FOID card, you can take your, actually you take your concealed carry training and apply for both your concealed carry and your FOID at the same time.

But you can't purchase a firearm or possess a firearm until you get that FOID card.

- That's a lengthy... That's a loophole for your revenue stream.

- Well, and here's the thing.

The markup on guns is very low.

If you're in business and the only thing you sell is firearms, you're not gonna be in business very long.

It's extremely competitive.

To make money in this business, you really would make more money selling accessories, you know, gun cases, holsters, things like that have a much higher markup than firearms do.

Training classes have a much higher markup than firearms do.

So the firearm sales to think that dealers are gonna get rich because they're selling more guns, they're not.

And the other thing too, is there's a firearm shortage.

Nobody made a spare 30 million guns.

Nobody made an extra three billion rounds of ammunition.

All these people that buy a gun for the first time, they buy 100 rounds of ammo.

They buy one box or two boxes of ammo, times 30 million.

You know, that's billions of rounds.

Nobody made an extra billion rounds of ammo.

And then with manufacturing, tanking, because of corona and everything else, you just, there's been a firearms and ammunitions shortage.

- So I know the ammunition shortage is out there.

I've heard that by many people.

Is that still going on?

- It's starting to come back.

- [Matt] Playing a little catch up, maybe?

- The accessibility is starting to come back.

The price hasn't come down.

What they did is a shortage was mainly in this country.

So we had, it was a three-fold problem.

We had coronavirus that slowed a lot of manufacturing, just any manufacturing.

- [Matt] In any business.

- In any business, just manufacturing, just got slowed down.

Then he had Remington that went filed for bankruptcy, and they were the one of the largest manufacturers in this country.

- [Matt] That's a brand.

- So they shut down a manufacturing plant in Arkansas that was shuttered a few months before even coronavirus started.

They just fired it back up a few months ago.

- Remington did?

- Yeah, Remington Ammunition.

So, and that's starting to hit the shelves now.

So what the ammunition wholesalers were doing is they were buying this ammunition from overseas.

So the cost went way up 'cause they were paying import tax on it.

But it is starting to become more available.

The guns as a gun dealer, I haven't been able to order a gun in over a year.

So if you walked in and said, "I'm looking for this particular make model of firearm," I put you on a waiting list and back order it.

- That's interesting.

So in your business, you've gotta get, here in Illinois, you've gotta get the FOID card, the background check, order the ammunition, order the gun, have everything cleared.

It is a major process.

I never even realized it.

- And in your concealed carry training class is 16 hours.

So you'd have to set aside a weekend.

Most of the instructors are doing it Saturday and Sunday.

Some instructors do partials, you know, through the week to make up the 16 hours.

But then you gotta schedule your class.

You gotta find a local class to get to.

- And there's not a lot of places like yours, right?

- There's a few around.

I mean, there's some... - There's a few but... With 30, you're talking about adding 30 million.

- Well, that's in the country and not in this town.

In this area, we've seen a huge uptick in training and the concealed carry.

I think all concealed carry instructors would tell you, they've had a lot more students now than they did, you know, a couple years ago.

- Yeah.

You know, when I talk to the police chief or sheriff or whoever it may be, and you, safety's always the first thing that's brought up.

And that actually makes you feel good because that is the most important thing.

- And as an NRA instructor, we're known as safety instructors.

That's what they call us.

We were there to teach firearm safety.

So, you know, yes, safety is key.

The main three safety rules, you walk in, you get a, just to go to the range, just to shoot.

You, bring your own gun, you bring your own ammo.

You just wanna run a lane.

You're gonna get a safety briefing.

You go to any competition, you get a safety briefing.

You go to any class, you learn about safety.

You know, you can watch safety videos online.

They're on Facebook, they're on YouTube.

- So if you to describe in this day and age, maybe when you started your business, now it's different, but what do you do, Kevin, you do every day with your job.

What's your main thing that you do?

- Unfortunately, it's paperwork.

There's so much paperwork involved with selling a gun.

You have to keep a book.

And now we have to do double the paperwork for the state of Illinois.

So it's unfortunately I spend 20 hours a week doing nothing but paperwork.

And as the sales increase, as the business increases, it's just more paperwork.

Concealed carry class, you know, for that 16 hours of training that you take, I've got another five hours that I gotta do, you know, all my record keeping and paperwork.

- You get audited on that?

I don't know if that's the right word.

- Yes.

Well, they call it a compliance inspection.

- [Matt] That's audit.

- That's an audit.

Yep.

The ATF comes down and does compliance inspections to make sure.

- That's a good thing.

- Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And the nice thing about them is if I have a question, if I, you know, when I got my license, the ATF interviews you, they explain it to you, they give you references.

They show you exactly what you need to do to keep the correct records.

You know, the state of Illinois is a little bit different.

We kept very little direction on that, but they come in, you know, once a year, you know, once a year, maybe 18, you know, whenever they can, they come in, they do a compliance inspection and they go through all your paperwork, they go through all your 4473 forms.

They go through your book, they go through your inventory and they make sure that... - There's nothing crooked.

- There's nothing crooked and make sure you haven't been robbed.

When you have an an inventory of a few hundred guns or 500 guns, I mean, you gotta keep good track of them.

- Yeah, well, let me ask you this.

This just popped in my head.

So like, if you are in the jewelry business and yeah, diamonds have specific numbers on them, right?

- Sure.

- So do all guns have the same, like cars, serial numbers that are tied to?

- Absolutely.

There's a serial number on every single one of them.

Now you have some older firearms and still, you know, around, like you mentioned, if your grandfather had a 1865, whatever, a musket, would that have a serial number on it?

It might.

I love the historic guns, the old military guns.

I had a customer brought in an old Colt.

That was a civil war era that his grandfather found it in the field in Kentucky.

So here's this cool old pistol that you couldn't shoot or anything, but you know, the story behind it was neat, but it had a serial number.

And you know.

- How does a pawn shop.

Like I'm thinking of the show, Pawn Stars, how that people are always bringing in guns and cannons and all these different things.

How do they purchase those guns just like right there?

- They still have to have an FFL.

A pawn shop can have an FFL, absolutely.

And it's treated, it's actually a different license.

Like I'm a type one, which means I'm a regular firearms dealer.

A type two is a pawn dealer, which means a person that owns a pawn shop can give a gun or transfer a firearm on upon redemption.

So if you had a firearm, you need some money, you go to a pawn shop they loan you money for that.

You can go back and get that gun back on upon redemption.

That's a type two dealer.

- We've got a couple of minutes, but I just wanted to... Women owning guns has increased dramatically.

- Huge.

Huge.

- Why?

Protection is that?

- Absolutely.

They're done being victims.

They're absolutely done being victims.

Women are, not only do they buy a lot of guns, they train.

I have more women come to my range and train.

It's 80% women that come in there and shoot.

They train hard, they buy guns, they train hard and they take it very seriously.

- I had somebody we both know, tell me that women train harder than men (laughs).

- When it comes to the gun world, I will agree with her from what I've seen they do.

- Yes, in the gun world.

- Yeah.

- That is crazy.

So do you have a percentage off the top of your head that an increase females in the sport?

Because I've noticed it too, and it's not just for sport or...

It's protection and it's not...

It's protection also against domestic violence.

- It is.

They are...

It's not just handgun.

Just so you said they're buying shotguns.

They're getting into the trap and skeet and sport and leagues.

And they just, it just seems like they have groups out there now that are nothing but women gun owners.

- Well, that is good to know.

Again, I'd have to say we're probably gonna do another one down the road because I wanna kind of go down that way.

- Sounds good.

- Anyway, that's all we have time for tonight.

Kevin Moody, another great show.

Thank you for coming in.

I'm Matt George, and this is another episode of Business Forward.

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