(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) - From the United Nations to President Biden, to Illinois governor J.B. Pritzker.

The push for renewable or clean energy is well underway, and here in Illinois there are lofty goals.

Jackson Morris works with the Natural Resources Defense Council.

He's the director of State Power Sector Policy, Climate and Energy.

Thanks for joining us, Jackson.

- Thanks for having me.

- Tell us a little bit about the NRDC, how long it's been around and what the purpose of the organization is.

- Sure, so NRDC was founded in the early '70s and has grown over time to be one of the most effective, not-for-profits that works on the whole suite of environmental issues, everything from water quality to land use.

And over time, due to the challenge of climate change and how important that's become, it's become one of the biggest areas of focus for the institution, and so we work both in the litigation space as well as engaging with various stakeholders, governor's offices, state legislatures to advance climate policies and clean energy solutions at the state level, as well as working at the federal level on that side of the equation.

So it's kind of federal, state, local, whatever it's gonna take to meet our climate targets and move forward on climate solutions.

- Well, as I mentioned earlier, president Biden and our governor here in Illinois, J.B. Pritzker, very big on renewable energy and helping to protect the environment.

Can you tell us, you work with different states around the country, can you tell us how you think Illinois is doing in terms of its acceptance of renewable energy and its work towards more renewable energy?

- Sure, so NRDC works in depth in a number of states in the northeast, southeast, Midwest, and out west.

And we kind of, I guess, kind of categorize them in different stages of kind of progress.

And we would put Illinois right there in the leadership space with states like New York and California, actually.

We feel like Illinois lately has really picked up speed in terms of the progress on climate policies that it's been able to enact in statute and also move forward through regulations at the utility commission and through the state agencies.

So we would put Illinois right up there in the top three or four states in terms of clean energy policies nationally.

- When you're dealing with anyone from governors to local municipalities, what are some of the roadblocks or speed bumps that you run into when you're trying to push for renewable energy?

- Right, it's a great question.

So just to kind of back up a second, I think what you need to have in place at the state level, obviously the federal progress we've made under President Biden and the recent Inflation Reduction Act policies at the federal level is really a game changer.

It's unprecedented at the federal level in terms of implementing policies at the national level that are gonna dramatically further reduce the cost of renewable energy.

So that was literally a game changer when that was enacted.

But then when you get down to the state level, you need kind of those foundational pillars of what makes a solid clean energy platform at the state level, and one of those is a strong renewables mandate or requirement for a state and Illinois, under the CEJA legislation that was enacted in 2021, enacted a 40% by 2030 renewables mandate in law and a 50% renewables mandate by 2040.

And that's a really critical market signal, kind of at the state level to, it has teeth, it's binding, and it sends a signal to the market for developers of wind and solar to know that Illinois's serious about renewables.

However that is certainly a necessary precursor to attracting investment in a state.

But then to your point about the municipal level, once you get down to the local level, it really is critical for developers and stakeholders to work together and really educate folks because there are, unfortunately, some entities on the other side of the climate fight that would much rather see us stay reliant on fossil fuels and perpetuate kind of a reliance on oil and gas and coal.

And some of those entities are, one of their strategies is to spread misinformation at the local level, and kind of poison the waters, if you will, at the local level on citing these projects.

And so that fight at the local level is extremely critical and it's important to have municipal officials get up to speed, be able to ask questions and really share the information necessary so that folks can make the right decisions, because even if we have great federal policies to buy down the cost of renewables and really solid renewables laws in Illinois to advance renewables projects, if you can't overcome any local opposition to citing those projects, then we'll never get where we need to be.

And so it's a really important question and I think the short answer is it just requires a lot of outreach and transparency and information sharing at the local level to make sure folks understand the implications and the benefits of these projects, in addition to kind of the clean energy benefits which reduce air pollution, reduce climate pollution, so that's kinda the most obvious one.

But there's also the dramatic job creation benefits that these projects can bring to a community, as well as support for a tax basis.

So when these projects come in, if a big wind farm comes into a municipality, they typically enter into an agreement with the local municipality in terms of a payment in lieu of taxes structure, which is known as a pilot.

And so at that point, they negotiate with the municipality, the revenue that that municipality is gonna generate because that wind farm was built in their community.

And so a lot of times that that might be a community that's facing challenges on their tax base.

And so it really can be a huge economic engine as well as a climate solution when these projects come into communities and set up shop.

- You know, while we're talking about wind farms, let's expand on that a little bit.

We've got a lot of wind farms here in central Illinois, companies wanting to build more.

There is some opposition, some people worried about anything from birds being killed or noise, things like that.

Like you said, you have to go on the local level to try and relieve some of this apprehension that people may have about it.

What do you say to those people who say, "Hey, it's an eyesore, it's noisy, could kill birds."

- I mean, I think one of the most important things is that it's important to listen to folks' concerns, right?

There's limits on what sort of like a top down, forcing things through approach can get you, and you're never gonna change everybody's minds.

But I think it's really about having that open conversation and really telling the story of the benefits that these projects provide and also the transition that's happening can be done in a way that benefits folks and can really revitalize some of these local communities.

And you're never gonna convince everybody, right?

Some folks are just going to not want to see any change in their community, and that's their prerogative to have that opinion.

But at the end of the day, everyone, or almost everyone is relying on the grid for electricity and our entire economy is moving increasingly towards an electrified system.

So over time, our transportation infrastructure, our cars, our trucks, our buses, they're gonna run electricity.

Our buildings are increasingly gonna run on electricity for heating and cooling as opposed to burning natural gas, propane or oil.

And so if you're gonna be moving the economy writ large to an electrified economy to meet our climate targets, we have to decarbonize the electric supply.

And so that's why it's so vital that we scale up the renewables and zero emissions resources because that's gonna be the linchpin on which everything else in the economy relies.

And so how clean or dirty that electric system is, is gonna dictate how the overall economy either progresses or doesn't in terms of climate progress.

- Here in the Peoria lately, we've had some stories about companies that wanna put up wind farms, some companies that wanna put up solar farms, things like that, and it's not so much that the people are totally against those things, but they just don't want it next to where they're living or "Not in my backyard," so to speak.

Is that kind of a thing that you see around the country, people supporting a project but not necessarily wanting to live by it?

- Definitely, I mean, it's a common theme that we confront.

One thing I would point out, just a couple states over in Ohio, we've seen a pretty nefarious effort, what we kind of call AstroTurf campaigns, where you kind of have basically the natural gas industry and some folks that have direct ties to the natural gas industry and don't want to see any expansion of renewable energy, they want to keep us relying on natural gas and fossil fuels.

They have some pretty insidious techniques where they'll spread a lot of disinformation locally, really drum up opposition and try to create that pushback to these projects getting done.

And in Ohio, one of the efforts we've undertaken is to collaborate with unions, specifically with the IBEW in Ohio, to engage with folks locally to educate, inform, and provide a counter to some of those opposition voices.

Some of which can be legitimate, but many of 'em, more often than not, we're seeing a pretty elaborate kinda network of fossil fueled opposition to kind of plant those seeds of opposition at the local level.

So it's a very intensive process.

It requires a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of staff to push back in those fights.

But in terms of kind of NIMBYism is gonna be something that you run into no matter where you are.

And it really is just about that outreach, the open dialogue and meeting people where they are.

And at the end of the day, there's gonna be people that aren't happy with the final results, but it's also important just to recognize that the alternative is that we are stuck in the status quo, which is reliant on dirty energy, which is unsustainable and it's not a future that we can really embrace.

So it's just a matter of kind of the on the ground, person to person, transparent dialogue to talk through and try and address folks' concerns.

'Cause a lot of the concerns can be addressed once people have that conversation in a meaningful way.

- Sure, well, Illinois is the nation's fifth largest energy producing and energy consuming state.

So this is something that's important to the state.

We've talked about wind energy, solar energy, and of course, as you said, dirty energy, which would be petroleum, coal, things like that.

Where do you stand on nuclear energy?

Because Illinois does generate more nuclear electricity from nuclear energy than any other state?

- Right, and so NRDCs position on nuclear is that while we don't consider it to be renewable energy 'cause it's not, it is zero emissions and it is an essential part of the power sector and ensuring that we make progress and don't backslide on emissions from the power sector.

And so we don't have an ideological position like pro or anti-nuclear, but we do see it as an important resource and we evaluate policy packages and any efforts related to nuclear on a case by case basis.

And for example, in the case of the landmark Illinois legislation, it did include support for nuclear, but it also included some extremely aggressive renewables mandates, support for electrification of electric vehicles, support for community transition.

And so in that context, we felt like it was appropriate to provide support for nuclear as well in the effort to ensure that those zero emissions resources are still online.

And so that's kind of how we approach any nuclear questions at the state level.

In contrast, in the case of Indian Point in New York, which was just outside of New York City, that was a specific facility that we had significant concerns on in terms of safety and proximity to 10 million people.

And so that was a specific facility that, in that instance, it was one that we had pushed and ultimately succeeded with partners in having that facility retired, and that was based on safety grounds.

And so it really is a case by case basis, but it's irrefutable that the nuclear fleet we have in this country is an essential component if we're gonna be able to decarbonize it.

And so we need to do that in a way that is safe and that also isn't at the expense of expansion of support for renewable energy.

And we've demonstrated with policies like the ones we have in Illinois that you can do both.

And so that's also why the aforementioned IRA federal legislation included a production tax credit for existing nuclear facilities that goes through 2032, in addition to all of the incentives that that federal legislation had for renewable energy.

And so it is a really critical, important component of the overall fleet, especially in a state like Illinois.

There's also a huge jobs component.

Those facilities have thousands of really good paying, family-sustaining jobs, and so we recognize that need to support those jobs in those facilities.

And I mean, you're absolutely spot on, Illinois is, if you factor in the 55% of Illinois' power that comes from nuclear and the 14% that Illinois gets from wind and solar, it's literally second in the nation for clean generation.

So if you could couple the renewables with the nuclear, it's literally number one, sorry, number two nationally for the percentage of generation that it has from clean sources.

So it's very impressive and something that positions Illinois to build on that leadership.

- And we've talked about rebates with getting solar for your house and we've got the Rivian electric car plant in Normal.

They're pumping out cars and there's rebates on those and things like that, do you think that's the way to go to try and get people on board is to in incentivize them with rebates, things like that?

- Yes, and so a couple of things.

One is, I think the debates about incentives for clean energy, you kind of miss the mark if you don't really shine a bright light on the decades and decades of fossil fuel subsidies that still persists today.

And those take different forms, but I think it's important to call that out because certainly folks in the fossil fuel industry would like the story to be, "Hey, we're standing on our own over here, we don't need any incentives," when in fact the reality is there's decades and decades of incentives that the government has provided to fossil fuels over time that dwarf what we've seen to date for clean energy and electric vehicles and the like.

And I think those incentives are really critically important to spur investment.

We've seen the cost of these technologies plummet over time, but the threat of climate change and the pace at which we need to transition clearly warrants additional support to accelerate the pace at which we make that transition.

And so that's a critical tool.

It's not the only tool, incentives are an essential component that we've seen, but you really need those binding statutes as well.

Like the renewables mandate I mentioned that Illinois has for 40% by 2030 and 50% by 2040 from renewable energy, because those work together, right?

You've got your incentives and then your requirements and standards and things like that.

They really work hand in hand, and the incentives make meeting those mandates that much more cost effective.

And so they do work together.

I'd also highlight another component on the federal level that came with the IRA was the Solar For All program, the EPA just announced awards to most states in the country actually that applied, and Illinois received $156 million from that program, which will be blended into, and braided with the state's existing Solar For All and solar assistance programs, which are specifically targeting getting solar deployed in communities that typically haven't been able to benefit from those projects.

So underserved communities, low-income customers, renters, the push for that is really important because on a macro level, we really need to scale up renewable energy from all sources as fast as we can, right?

We need wind, we need solar, we need utility scale, we need distributed, but we also need to make sure everyone is part of that transition.

And so the Solar For All program is a great example of a policy that really tries to get at some of those hard to reach sectors of the economy in the market that previously maybe wouldn't have otherwise benefited from the transition to clean energy.

And so it's not a one size fits all, it's really like an all hands on deck that we need to have all of these different policies working together to deliver a diverse resource mix.

And coupled with that is the need for some really dramatic deployment of battery storage, which will also help firm up the supply from renewables when we have a lot of battery storage online as well.

So that's another key component of this transition.

- Where do electric companies fit into all this?

I mean, do they have a preference of where their power comes from when they're delivering it to customers?

- So NRDC has long believed that the path to accelerating the decarbonization of the grid is in inextricably linked to collaborating and working with utilities.

It really just depends, utility by utility, they all have different perspectives and different business models.

In some instances we run into utilities that we can't work with 'cause they're just diametrically opposed to change.

And in those instances you have to take a different tact.

But our plan A is always to try to work with utilities to collaborate and accelerate the transition to a decarbonized mix.

Specifically to your question about do they care, essentially in a state like Illinois where you have the distribution utilities such as ComEd, Ameren, and others, they don't own generation, and so really they're tasked with maintaining the grid, the distribution network and the meter in your home or business and providing safe and reliable service at just and reasonable rates.

And so that's kind of like their very overarching mandate.

So where they procure their power is going to depend on inherently what a state's statutory regulatory frameworks are in place.

And so for example, if Illinois did not have CEJA and did not have a renewables requirement for the utilities in the state to procure a certain amount of renewables, they may not procure as much.

And so that's actually exactly why you need policies like a renewables requirement to steer utilities in the direction that a specific state sees as important.

And so that's how you ensure that you're on that right path to getting enough renewable energy.

And then once you have that, you can work with utilities and regulators to make sure you get there as quickly as you can and as cost effective manner as possible.

- Governor Pritzker would like Illinois to be net zero carbon emissions by 2050.

Judging by what we've done so far as a state, do you think that's something that could happen?

- I do.

In our line of work, you have to be kind of an eternal optimist, but at the same time you have to keep the tires on kind of what's possible in terms of over what time period can you make that progress.

And I would venture to say, in the next 25 years, I do firmly believe that the state could be carbon neutral by 2050, but only if we don't take our foot off the gas.

I mean, we really have to keep pushing, not only in the power sector, the building sector, transportation is a huge source of emissions, industry.

And so it's not gonna happen without really aggressive leadership from the governor's going forward after Pritzker and state lawmakers as well as the agencies and everybody, it has to be an all hands on deck effort if we're gonna get there, but I do think it's entirely possible if we have the political will and follow through on a lot of these great policies and build on them.

- Speaking of politics, we've got a big election coming up in November, and if President Biden does not win a second term, what does that mean, in your opinion, for our country when it comes to renewable energy?

- Well, great question, I'm inherently a state guy, so I've always done my policy work at the state and regional level, and so we've always kind of seen states as kind of the laboratories that are on the forefront of climate solutions and more aggressive climate policies than the federal government can typically get in place, just for obvious political reasons.

And so I think the good news is that independent of what happens in November in the presidential election, if Biden's re-elected, then states are gonna be absolutely essential to really accelerating the progress we make with the tailwinds we have right now at the federal level.

And if the election goes the other way, frankly the only path forward to making continued progress on climate solutions and climate progress is going to be at the state level, and states like Illinois will just become even more important to make sure we don't lose ground and slow progress.

And so it's kind of like one of the silver linings is that either outcome is gonna make state action all the more important regardless of the outcome.

It'll just take some slightly different forms but won't be any less important regardless of who is President.

- Jackson, where can people find out more about the Natural Resources Defense Council?

- You can go to our website at nrdc.org, and my email's jmorris@nrdc.org if anybody has questions and wants to follow up.

But it was great talking with you today and we really look forward to continuing to help Illinois move forward as a national leader on all of these efforts.

- All right, Jackson Morris with the Natural Resources Defense Council.

Thanks for your time, we appreciate it.

- Thank you.

- And that is our time for right now.

We appreciate you joining us.

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