(lively music) (lively music continues) - Education in prison.

It's not a new concept but now there's a first of its kind in the nation, prison education program that's happening right here in Central Illinois.

Dr. Sheila Quirk-Bailey is the president of the Illinois Central College, and Dr. Elizabeth Godinez is the program's instructor.

Thanks for coming in, ladies.

Appreciate it.

- Yeah, thank you.

- Thank you.

Good morning.

- Please give us a brief explanation of what is new with this program, and then we'll kind of dive into how we got here.

- So about 18 months ago, a federal law was passed that reinstated allowing incarcerated individuals to access the Pell program so they could begin to take their degrees, earn certificates while they're incarcerated.

And so it wasn't, I dunno, two weeks after the announcement that I get a call from the warden at Pekin and they said, "Hey, let's do this," right?

So it's been an interesting journey because they didn't have the metrics or, right, they didn't have the program set up as we kept pushing them to say we wanted to move forward at ICC.

And none of this happens without the partnership with the prison.

So that's how this all was launched.

- And just so people know, Pell Grants are used for, they're grants that you don't have to pay back, right?

- Correct.

- And yeah, I know that they used to pay for college for incarcerated individuals but then in 1994, it was banned.

- Right.

- Then it's slowly come back since then.

So, you get this call from Pekin, they say, "Hey, let's do this."

- Right.

- Where do you go from there?

- Well, that was an interesting journey because where does that program begin?

Once we got down to Dr. G, as her students call her, which I just love, once we got down to the point of who would teach it and how we start to work out, right?

You can't have access to the internet, they don't have access to computers.

So once we tried to figure all that, that was the easy part, trying to figure out how that would work on the back of the house was a little more difficult.

So admissions, registrar, student services, learning services, the library, everybody, it was like an all college project trying to figure out how we create this microcosm of a college in the prison.

Because they don't have access to our, I mean, we're literally passing notes, right?

They're writing what they need on paper that then Dr. G brings back.

And we have the right department then figure it out and get it back to her.

That's how that works.

- So were you approached to take on this interesting assignment?

- Well, when the opportunity came, I have been an adjunct instructor in our Business Legal Information Systems Department at the college for about 9 to 10 years.

And, you know, becoming a full-time faculty member has always been, you know, an aspiration, a goal of mine.

And so when this opportunity presented itself, I absolutely had to jump on it.

So the college had provided this opportunity to be the prison education program, and I couldn't think of anything better to fill my cup.

- No apprehension?

- Not at all.

Nope, I've never, I will be honest with you, the biggest fear that I had when starting this program was failing the students.

Not, you know, walking into a federal prison.

I never had a fear of that ever, so, it was just, I hope I'm the right person that can make a difference, so.

- Can you describe the classroom experience for us?

Give us, kind of paint a picture of what it's like, as obviously not your typical college setting.

- No, it's a little different.

Specifically when I have to enter the men's federal prison, so, you know, you have to go through all of your security checks.

Usually I'm wanded.

I have to sign in, I have to be stamped, I have a badge that I have to wear.

I'm escorted as I walk through, you know, the open area, you know, like the compound, the big yard area.

So I'm always escorted where I go.

And that's a little different from, you know, just hopping outta your car and running into your classroom on the, you know, the main East Peoria campus.

So it takes a little bit more time.

But once I arrived at the Education Department, which is, you know, a building withinside the compound in the men's facility, it's just your typical classroom.

You know, it's your typical environment.

They have a law library, like a study area for students, and they have an actual library there for students to use.

And then there's several other classrooms because the prison also has other classes, you know, going on.

But yeah, I have about 20 men in my classroom right now.

And I've never felt more protected in a federal prison than with my male students.

So, they take very good care of me.

- That's great.

So, when exactly did you start this?

- I started June 3rd.

- Okay.

- Our first class was offered in the summer semester and we started with Business 100, which was our professionalism for employees class.

And we started with 23 men and 15 women.

And it's just been a success since.

We moved in after we completed that class.

And all students were incredibly successful.

They're so engaged, you know, 'cause they want to be there.

It's just an incredible experience.

And so after we completed the Business 100 class, we moved in and we are right now working on principles of management, so our Management 113 class.

And we're just exploring different types of management styles and approaches and everything's going great.

- Now, for the men and women to get into these classes, do they already have to have a GED or a high school diploma?

- So the prison does require that when a person comes to the facility, that if they do not already have a GED, they are put through a GED program there.

So yes, all of my students, men and women, do have a GED.

A lot of them actually have several college credits as well too.

So we have a lot of students, (clearing throat) excuse me, in the men and women's classrooms that are previous college attendees, so, yeah.

- Sheila, you mentioned earlier that, you know, they don't have internet access.

So there's a few challenges when it comes to trying to get Pell Grants and other things like that.

And it seems like, you know, the prison, from what I've heard, they're all in on this and they want this- - Absolutely.

- For their folks there.

- Absolutely.

So if you take a step back, this program has existed in 30 years in this country.

And why wouldn't you want someone to create a skillset that puts them in a different position, right, post-incarceration, so they can be supported and make better decisions and be in a different place than they were before.

These types of programs have a dramatic impact on reducing recidivism.

And so not only do our wonderful faculty, like Dr. G, work with the content, but we support them with their success and life beyond our degree, just like we would any other students.

So we're really preparing them for life success, right, when they take that next step.

So from a prison standpoint, I mean, they're still running a prison, so they had standardized schedules and they had, right, things, this is the way it works here.

Well now that we're pulling 33 out on a different schedule to do this, they have been amazingly flexible in a very rigid system to make this available for students.

So we couldn't ask for better partners in trying to make this happen.

- Yeah.

- Speaking of recidivism, a 2018 meta study published in the "Journal of Experimental Criminology" found that people who are enrolled in post-secondary education programs are 48% less likely to be re-incarcerated than their peers who don't.

And as far as unemployment post-release, that increases by 12% for individuals who participate in any kind of correctional education.

So, it seems like helping these people out benefits everybody.

- It absolutely benefits everybody.

So some would make the argue, why would you invest your funds that way?

Well, you just gave us two of the reasons.

The other issue would be once they are released, they would qualify for those funds.

So why wouldn't you just back that up a little bit?

So on the way out, right, they're not in a situation where they're unemployed and don't have skills, right?

They've earned those skills, right, on funds they would have qualified for anyway later, right?

And they can actually hit the ground running in terms of moving forward with their lives.

It just makes sense for everyone.

And they are so grateful.

We went out and met with them.

We had the Assistant Secretary of Education in when we made our announcement last week.

And they will say, "I've made some bad decisions.

I understand, this is where I am, right?

Reset, right, anything I can do to make things better in my life and, right, take responsibility and contribute."

They're all in and it's just a wonderful thing to see.

- [Elizabeth] Absolutely.

- Dr. G, do you ever, in your classes, do you ever talk with the students about why they're there, what they've done?

Does that ever come up at all?

- No, I really try not to.

They have shared their stories.

I mean, so I guess, yes, some of them have come forward with their stories.

I never ask.

I feel like it's a very private thing and if they would like to share with me and I try to be respectful that there are other people in the classroom too.

So it might not be a story that they wanna share with everybody.

So I don't necessarily ask but some do share that with me.

And then I also too, will share my story.

You know, a lot of the times, like we were kind of speaking, I am a GED recipient myself.

I went through Illinois Central's college program.

And so I think that, me having a GED and them having a GED, it kind of, you know, we kind of have bonded over having a lot of the same life experiences.

You know, I was a young mother as well, and so some of them are young mothers in my women's classes.

And so we have bonded over a lot of different life experiences and so it's been great.

- Do they ever share their goals with you?

- Oh all the time, yeah.

- What are some of those goals?

- So I have, or most, a lot of the women would like to be entrepreneurs.

I have several students.

I have one who would like to be, she's currently and has prior to coming to the women's camp, she was a photographer.

So she is going, she plans to take all of her business knowledge and her new skillsets that she's learned in the program and apply them to her photography business when she gets out.

I have several students who are looking to be business entrepreneurs and maybe opening up their own businesses when they complete.

And then I have some that are really, you know, looking to be an advocate and a support for maybe other women who are incarcerated too.

So I have, yeah, a lot of business women, entrepreneurs, yeah, so.

- And as far as while they're incarcerated, is the end goal to try and get an associate's degree or work their way towards getting an associate's degree and then maybe finish when they get out?

- Well I think the goal is to get them a certificate.

So they would take the business classes.

So they would probably need to take those gen eds to complete the full degree in time period too.

But when you take that business certificate, you have all of the technical skills you need then to be employable and to be successful.

And then there'd be a next step they would need to take to actually earn a full two year degree.

- So they may not even want or need the degree necessarily, they want the skills to try and get a job when they get out.

- In today's job market, right, that degree doesn't take you much farther than that certificate does.

There was a point in our nation's history where it didn't.

It absolutely does now.

And we're offering these courses in 8-week chunks as opposed to 16.

So we're trying to reduce that cycle time to make sure that they can complete and move through the program so they actually have that piece of paper when they exit.

- Absolutely.

Yep.

- So, in this world too of technology and online classes and all that stuff, we've said before, they don't have internet access, so it's really kind of old fashioned book and teacher learning.

- Yeah, it is.

We're paper and pencil for the most part.

However, the women and the men did a fabulous job.

Just in the summer, I had given them the materials and they've created their own PowerPoints for their presentations at the end of the class period.

And they are phenomenal.

I have a lot of artists on the men and the women's side.

And some of their PowerPoints were better than anything that you could have done online yourself.

Like just the artwork.

And their handwriting is spectacular.

So it was really neat to see what they could do with just the bare minimum.

And they exceeded my expectations.

So yeah, the technology not having that, can be a challenge but- - Sure.

- We're doing very well without it, so.

- Do you have enough, tsk, oh what's the word I'm looking for, capacity for, I mean, have you had more people try and get into the program than you have, quote unquote, seats?

- Yeah, so, yes, I think there's gonna be far more demand.

So the question is the scheduling, the room, how we grow this over time because there's more need there.

Again, with being the first in the nation, we had to go through accreditation from the state, accreditation from the outside accreditor, the Higher Learning Commission, the outside accrediting agency, and through programs both at the Department of Education and the Department of Justice.

So when we got to the regional approval for the Department of Education, one of the things they said to us is, "We don't even have a rubric.

You're the first one to come through so you guys fill out that application.

We don't even know what to, give me two weeks, I dunno what quite to do with this."

So, until all that got figured out, the last thing we wanna do is, some of these folks have been disappointed educationally, right, along the way.

So you don't wanna start this and then, you know, it got a little messed up, so why don't we go back?

Or, you know, they're still waiting on approval.

In fact the Higher Learning Commission approved us and six weeks later came back and said, "Oh you're not approved 'cause now that we thought about it, there's six other questions we want you to answer.

So here's your packet back.

Now answer these, put it through again."

So we actually, from the time these individuals were selected, to the time we started offering, was over a year.

So that summer class, we still didn't have approval.

We knew we were going to get approval but like I said, they were just trying to figure out how to do that.

So our amazing educational foundation stepped up and actually paid for that first course in that cohort so we could demonstrate to our incarcerated students how serious we were, how much we cared about their future and now let's get you started, right?

And that gives us eight weeks then for all that federal processing to catch up.

And that's exactly what happened.

- Yeah.

Yep.

- I would think, thankfully I've never been in prison, but I would think it's so boring that people would be chomping at the bit to learn or do something outside of their normal routine.

At what point, you know, do you say, "Hey, this is really popular.

We need to maybe expand the program, maybe get more instructors"?

- Well we will hire the instructors to the extent that we get the expansion.

So I think they have not quite as many as we want.

I think they're up to 8 or 10, right, in terms of people on a waiting list.

So, we will deal with that.

- Yep.

- We're also working with them.

We had been approved, and this wasn't with Pell, but it was with direct funding from the Bureau of Prisons to start doing welding.

And we were, again, one of the first in the nation approved.

That approval came in a day and a half prior to the COVID shutdown.

So now we're trying to start that program back up as well.

We are also interested, once that's set up, in possibly moving into truck driving on the women's campsite.

The women's camp is minimum security, the men's is a medium security, so we'd never get that release for the men but we could get that for women.

And we've actually had conversations with local employers who said that that background wouldn't deter them from hiring a welder or a truck driver.

And so now we're moving through the processes with making those additional programs happen.

- You mentioned background and, (clearing throat) different states have different laws about background checks and what you can ask on an application and things like that.

Any concern about that here, at least in Illinois, that, you know, these people may be taking classes, getting certificates, degrees, whatever, but then when they get out, are they employable?

- So that's exactly, first of all, that's why we're doing the business program 'cause it's a little more broadly applicable, right?

So people would have options if they do run into an employer with that concern.

And as we talk about those career programs, welding, truck driving, we actually survey and work with companies in the area to say, I mean they're not guaranteeing they're gonna hire this particular person, but I said, "Would you hire someone with this background and with this profile?"

Because, like I said, there's been a lot of disappointments sometimes.

Bad decisions on their part but disappointments along the way.

And why would you ever wanna certify someone in something and, like you said, and then they can't get the job because of background.

So we've done that homework as we continue to grow that programming to make sure it truly is, right, an advantage, something that's gonna move someone's life forward.

- So besides business, what other kind of classes are we talking about?

- So the students will have a regular English, like an English 110 class.

They'll have some Excel classes as well.

I mean we have accounting.

Even though most of those are, it's a business specialist certificate, most of them are focused on business, but they will have a few other just general education courses that, you know, are kind of interwoven within that as well.

- So for Excel then, they have computers to work on, they just don't have connectivity to the internet.

Is that right?

- So, that is what FCI Pekin is working on right now, is how we're gonna kind of develop that for those classes that are being offered.

Yeah, so I think that's kind of the goal right now.

- Okay.

- Yeah.

- Have you had any questions from any other prisons in the state or people who say, "Hey, is this working and how can we do this?"

- Well, I think the Department of Education is very much interested in making us a case study.

You know, where do we have challenges setting it up, how do we go about staffing, right?

And that background and that connection.

How did the prison have to change what they do?

And get some, work out the details in terms of their rules and what this would require.

So we have worked out all of that and that they hope to leverage through other communities who host federal prisons.

The state prison system has always worked differently and there has been some ongoing educational programs in that.

But their goal would be to eventually establish this type of program in every federal prison.

And we're just happy to say that we were the first in the nation to go there.

- Yeah.

- Well I'm sure in the next few years, you're gonna see a lot of success stories.

Have you personally, just in teaching a class, maybe had a moment where a student just, you know, the light bulb went off and said, "Hey, you know, I can really do this.

Like there's a light at the end of the tunnel when I get outta here."

- Yeah.

Sometimes, you know, even as an instructor, you're kind of wondering, you know, are they retaining what you're saying, you know?

And every once in a while, I'll just throw out some random questions and (fingers clicking) they are on it.

They don't miss a beat.

So I know that they're picking up everything that we're discussing.

It's really experiential too, you know.

A lot of them, like the men and the women, I said, have been professionals, you know, prior to coming.

So they have a lot of, you know, background too with, you know, working as managers.

I have some, a couple of the men are businessmen, entrepreneurs.

And carpenters.

Some of them come from the trade.

So they actually do have a lot of real world experience that they can bring to those classes too.

And so when we're, you know, applying what we're learning in the classes, they absolutely are right there with the answers.

So I do know that they are learning as we go.

- With those people in there that already have experience, like you said, the accounting, management, carpentry, whatever, do you anticipate a time where maybe you'll have a teacher's assistant who, you know, is in the prison, who already, you know, maybe is in for say a white collar crime, has a college degree, and wants to help other people that are in there?

- Well, and several of my students too, men and women, I have a couple of women who are actually teaching and tutor the GED students that are coming in.

So actually I have, one of my female students and me actually, we share that classroom.

She does a lot of stuff with the GED students that are incoming to the prison.

So I have actually some educators in my class as well, just in a different capacity.

But they are great.

And same with the men.

I have several men that are, you know, help with the GED students and do a lot of tutoring.

So yeah, they bring a lot of skillsets.

- You know an interesting part of this program that we haven't talked about yet is there's research when the program was here 30 years ago.

So the students have to meet expectations of the prison.

So it's a privilege to be a part of this.

And what they find is, there is less disruption, right?

And there's better behavior overall because everyone would like access to that.

So this is what, and I can't quote those to you, but basically this is the package.

This is what you need to demonstrate in order to earn this privilege.

So now there's a whole group of people all looking to, right, to meet those requirements as we continue to grow the program.

So it really just works for everyone.

- [Elizabeth] Yeah.

That's right.

- What's your class size right now?

- Right now I have 20 men and I have 13 women.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

- Yeah.

- All in one class versus separate?

- Yeah, well the men are at the men's facility and the women are at the camp.

So we are separated.

The men and women are separated, but, yep, we're all together.

And also, I would feel like it's become a, they have kind of created their own very positive culture too.

So you can see the bonds that are happening inside the classroom and then that's, you know, being taken, you know, a step further and they're having that comradery, you know, outside of the classroom too.

So it's a great, it's just really a great incentive and a great opportunity for them to kind of all come together as well, you know, outside of the classroom too and create those friendships.

- And Sheila, with your visit from the Department of Education recently, it sounds like they're happy with the program.

- They are thrilled with the program.

They're thrilled.

And so we walked through, you know, these are still the stumbling blocks and this is what needs to, you need to take a look at.

We would love for the current laws to change, we'd love to let those students hit the internet while in the classroom.

So if you put that on a separate server, there are ways to secure that.

So only access in the classroom and then not past that.

And there are filters and... A whole different story then when this program existed 30 years ago in terms of what you can do in that.

But 30 years ago it was you can't have access to that.

So now we are hopefully can demonstrate how that could be secured and not break their rules and still create more of a real world experience, right, in that classroom.

So those are all steps to come and we're excited to be part of that investigation and working out those details as those programs will then rollout nationwide.

- When it comes to potentially changing laws, are you at a point yet where you can say, "Hey Mr. And Mrs.

Politician, look at what we've done.

Would you think about voting for a change in the law?"

Or do you have to wait a little bit you think and have some more tangible results?

- You know, some of it will be a law has to change and some of it will just be regulations within that system itself.

So we're sort of sorting it out what goes in each bucket.

But the Assistant Secretary is going to write our local politicians and say, "Hey, these are the issues we're investigating.

So we're gonna keep you informed of this once we figure out which of these are actually law changes.

We would love you to be the advocates 'cause this is happening in your district and you're gonna be the direct benefit of these individuals having an educational credential as they exit."

- Well it's an exciting thing and it's always exciting to be on the forefront and be the first to do something that one day may just be the norm across the country.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, it's wonderful.

- Dr. Sheila Quirk-Bailey and Dr. Elizabeth Godinez, thanks for coming in and best of luck with the program.

- Oh, thank you so much.

We appreciate it.

- Thank you so much.

- All right, that is our time for right now.

Thanks for joining us.

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