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(upbeat music) - Welcome to Business Forward.

I'm your host, Matt George.

Gonna be another great show tonight.

Steve Simon is joining me tonight.

Steve's a photographer, an author, a teacher, a mentor, a businessman, you name it.

He's known as "The Passionate Photographer", welcome.

- Great to be with you, Matt.

Thank you.

- Well, I was so fired up when you said, "I'm gonna be able to come on," because this is one of these shows for me that I think you can tell by how excited I am, that is fun because in most people's eyes, it's a hobby.

Photography is a hobby, but you have to still pay bills.

(laughs) - I'm living the dream because you know, for me too, when I started in photography I was 11 years old.

I'm older than that now.

And I've managed to sort of maintain a sort of work and a work life, support myself through photography.

You know, I often say that, you know, survival is success.

And I think anyone that looks at, you know, something that they would really like to do, but they have to do other things to kind of, to support their life, to be able to do what you're passionate about is a huge win, I think.

- That's fun.

So let's start with you.

Are you from Illinois or... - No, I'm not.

I'm actually from Montreal, Canada.

- Okay.

- So you have winter here, right?

- We've been known to be cold here.

- Yes.

So I've always been cold when I was in Canada, but I grew up in Montreal, I moved out west to Alberta and when I hit 40, had a midlife crisis, I was working on a photographic project that took me into the United States.

And I was so affected by that project that I ended up moving here, getting my artist visa, now, I'm a proud American citizen.

- Oh, that is awesome.

- Yeah.

And that's, again, photography has kind of guided me through all these things in my life.

- That's some good stuff right there.

So I always wanna know on a business like this, how do you make money?

But I'm gonna go there in a minute because I love what you're called.

You're "The Passionate Photographer."

What does that mean?

- Well, I think that, you know, people can relate to sort of having a passion for something.

I mean, it's nice when you can combine the passion that you pursue, you know, with your work life, since we spend so much time working and it just means I'm doing what I can't help but do.

I'd be doing it regardless if I made money, you know, as a hobbyist, but to be able to do it, you know, survival is success to a certain degree, I've seen how things have changed over the years and I'm still here.

But, you know, I gotta say the passion that I have when I was a 14 year old kid roaming around the streets of Montreal, you know, documenting the streets of Montreal to where I am now, it's only gotten stronger, and it's really kind of a blessing to find that kind of passion in something that you kinda wanna do.

- You know, and when I was researching everything about this, I just kept digging deeper and deeper.

And what I really liked what I read and I just wanna see if this is you as a person, I was looking at the teachings that you do.

And I was looking at all the aspects of the business you do.

And it seems like you're just a very caring and empathetic person.

And I see that through your photography.

- Yeah.

I appreciate that.

And it is true that I think that, you know, one of the things I often say to other photographers to get them to, you know, move to the next level is, the more personal you make it, the more universal it becomes.

And we're in a society now as you know where everybody's gotta...

I think Instagram, there's like a billion pictures uploaded all the time.

So really, the best way to separate yourself as an artist, as a photographer, is to pursue kind of what's personal to you, you know, to be selfish and just, you know, what do you wanna say about the world and express through photography?

And I think that, you know, just like in life, there's a variety of different personalities we encounter.

And there are, you know, some photographers that do great work, but they're not necessarily empathetic with their subject and they can create powerful images.

And I think that, you know, the camera looks both ways.

So I think you can learn a little bit about the photographer by looking at the pictures that they take, you know, what they point and who they point their cameras at and, you know, the connections that you make as a photographer, hopefully are communicated.

So I appreciate what you have to say, you know, there's some photographers that are very sort of gruff and tumble and their work is very different.

It still can be very strong, but in order to have someone, a subject give you something real and authentic, I think there has to be that connection with the subject and you have to be interested and empathetic with the people that you encounter.

- You know, I like sports.

And so I always think of, you know, there's what makes a great sports photographer.

And if you go back and look at all the books, the coffee table books, right?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- And you look at the pictures that really hit you most, it's that raw emotion of that competitor.

And I think of the Muhammad Ali pictures and then Jackie Robinson and Roberto Clemente.

All those, and it just shows so much, and it's so meaningful.

And in your business, I (mumbles) honestly never thought about it until I started researching, knowing that you were coming on the show, but in your business, that really makes you a certain way.

It's kind of like an artist.

An artist paints a certain way, right?

- Yeah.

You know, it's interesting you say it like with sports, you know, there are two aspects of sports, there's the action and we're all sort of compelled by the action and the suspense and the stop motion, you know, in the air, receiver grabbing the ball, that kind of thing.

- [Matt] Dolphin.

- Yeah, exactly.

And that's good.

And it takes a certain skill.

But I think the images that are most embedded in our sort of public consciousness are exactly what you described, the emotion.

It was sort of, you know, Neil Leifer's picture of Ali standing on top of, I think it was Joe Frazier.

You know, it's the reaction as opposed to the action, because the reaction really tells the story.

The action of course tells one aspect of the story, but the bigger story is the reaction, the winning, the losing, the triumph, the sadness, the tears, all that stuff.

I mean, sports, you know, reflects a lot of the emotions in life.

And the strongest images that you I think are affected by, are more the reaction than the action itself.

- I think you're right.

It's the agony of defeat.

That's Howard Cosell used to say.

- [Steve] Exactly.

- Right?

- I remember that wide wheel of sports, poor skier that kept going down and never ending.

I think they were okay.

Right.

- So you said earlier this was a hobby and you said age 14.

So, with technology the way it is today, what kind of camera did you use at age 14 compared to what do you use now?

Do you still use what's considered old school camera or do you use an iPhone?

- Yeah, well, you know, all of the above.

- Okay.

- And, you know, what's interesting is, yeah, I've seen the paradigm shifts.

I've seen, you know, cameras for those that know, the manual focus camera, where there's a certain skill and being able to manually focus and get it sharp.

Then auto focus came in and then the camera's taking over.

And then of course the huge shift from film to digital.

(Matt laughs) But in the end, really things haven't changed because what you're doing is, you're sort of capturing life.

It's kind of a time and a bottle, you're freezing moments forever, and you're ultimately displaying them, in a two dimensional way, be it on your iPad or printed on the walls.

So, you know, the capture of the magic of photography of the world, you know, whether it's on a film piece or a digital that hasn't changed all that much and strong images that we were describing, that you were describing.

- Yeah.

- Whether they're made, you know, old school film or with an old camera.

And ultimately I was just talking to someone recently, it doesn't really matter what you're using.

You could be a great photographer with an iPhone.

The quality of the iPhone is amazing.

Certain limitations of course.

But I tend to like the technology.

So I tend to be kind of an early adopter.

So I have the latest, greatest auto, you know, digital camera.

Because if anything that makes my life easier to be able to capture and show images that maybe I couldn't have gotten without the technology, I think it's worth, you know, investing in.

So, but it's not the tool.

It's not the pen that makes the writer, you know, that kind of thing.

- That's a good way of putting it.

I don't say this often, 'cause I can only think of a few websites that I really like, but your website's beautiful.

- Oh, thank you.

- And I'll tell you why, you know you have a good website, so you can use this in marketing if you... - I will.

- So, if you stay on a website for more than two minutes, it's pretty good.

- Yes.

- [Matt] And I did.

- You know, it's funny you should mention this 'cause I was also mentioning this in a recent presentation and that is, you know, our attention span.

I think most of us can agree, has really kind of funneled down.

But the thing about still photography versus, you know, video, et cetera, and a lot of photographers, and when you get down to business, you have to diversify and there's a demand for video, so a lot of the cameras now do both professional video and professional still.

I've stuck with still, it's a whole other learning curve, the moving picture thing.

But you know, that picture's worth a thousand words.

A photograph communicates very quickly.

A strong photograph communicates very quickly.

Advertising has always known this.

You've always seen great images in advertising 'cause in a second, those thousand words are transmitted.

So in some ways, you know, still photography's time is now when everyone is just so running around and no time.

Everybody has time to kinda look at an image and be affected by it.

So, you know, I think there are a lot of great opportunities for still photographers, particularly in the realm of businesses that understand that this can be used.

And we see it.

If you actually look at some of the advertising, even some of the news coverage, some that we see every day, when they go to sort of still photos, it can be very powerful, both in advertising or if you're watching your news channel and they happen to show images.

Those still images, it's a different kind of capture than the moving pictures, but it can be very powerful and very affecting.

- I actually like the still.

I mean it tells a story, if you do it right.

- And you know, with billions of pictures being taken, most of the images, you know, are not strong enough to really demand your attention, but those passionate photographers, those of us that are pursuing it both as a hobby or as a profession, we need to go further.

We would to go further.

We want to make images that, you know, we'll be able to communicate quickly and get our message across.

- When you're taking a picture and you are looking at a subject and let's say, do you take like a hundred pictures and you just pick the best one 'cause you have the eye for it?

- Yeah.

I think that I've learned how important the moment is.

And, you know, again, getting back to sports, that moment is very important.

And, you know, with the shutter speeds now with cameras, the newest cameras, like a 32000th of a second.

So you could say that there are 32,000 potential moments in that second.

The moment is so important in the success of the image.

So if you have the decisive moment, so to speak, that has more impact than the moment just after.

So, you know, even in images like landscape photography, you know, where the light is constantly changing, the moment can be important.

But particularly when you're documenting, like in journalistic photo journalism or street photography, the moment is a big part of that story, which means that I often kind of overshoot, if you will.

I take a lot of pictures because getting that right moment.

And to me, you know, this picture over this picture, you may not necessarily notice it, but you know, I'm really sort of focusing in on capturing that moment.

'Cause I know it just adds even if it adds 8% to the power of the picture, I'll do it.

- I always wondered how that was.

So talking about your core business, because we said earlier you have to make money.

- Yeah.

- And if that's your livelihood, you've got different, you know, tentacles coming down from your business, one of them's social media, How do you handle your social media?

- Yeah, I think it's really important.

I mean, everybody knows, everybody feels the pressure of social media.

And you know, to be honest, you know, that's an area that I need to focus a little more attention on.

I think it's important to do the social media that you're most comfortable with.

I mean, look, if you're not comfortable in the camera, it doesn't make sense maybe to go to YouTube, maybe just stick to Twitter or Facebook.

It seems to me that Facebook is a platform that a lot of business is being done through.

- So that looks like an area.

And of course I have a Facebook page.

But I think, you know, you've probably talked to a lot of artists, you know, it's important obviously to do business because that allows you to feed your furnace of creative exploration.

- Right.

- But it's also an area where, you know, often we fall short.

I would admit that I think I could do much better.

I think it's important to find a way to delegate when you can.

You know, I'm a one man band, but I will hire freelancers for a specific task.

In the meantime, and to automate, you know, so you can, for Instagram, for example, I could go in and I can do, you know, a month's worth of posts in advance so that I got it done and I don't have to worry about it.

But the trick is I think to be on schedule, have a written list of things to do that you consistently do.

'Cause consistency seems to be a really important factor, in sort of maintaining your presence because, or else, you know, people will look away if you're not constantly populating your platforms.

- So, in a sense you're building your brand and everything you do is going to affect the brand, which happens to be you.

So you come out with your book, part of your brand, do you look at that as a moneymaker?

Or do you look at it as just a piece of the brand or both?

- Yeah.

I think you can make money in books, but in the space that I'm in, in the photographic space and kind of that the book that you're probably speaking of, "The Passionate", is kind of a how to book there to help other photographers.

It's the not gonna make you all that much money, but more importantly, I think, you know, it's published, you know, I haven't read it, but it's gotten good reviews.

(Matt laughs) But, you know, it's some confirmation, you know, in terms of who you are, it puts forth, you know, your personality to a certain degree, although of course, you know, YouTube and these kinds of things are more helpful.

And it gives you a foundation from which to build on and gives you some credibility, I think.

So I think that it's really important to, you know, build your credibility, show your passion and that will definitely, you can't miss it when you see the people that you follow or admire, wanna learn from.

You do because you like what they do.

You like what they're about.

And, you know, you have to be authentic about it, you know, it's not a formula.

- So let's talk money.

- Okay.

If we have to.

- Yeah, I mean, I think it's important because you have to monetize it.

So how does somebody get into this business and make money?

- Yeah.

That's a really... You know, I sort of think of the business of photography for a lot of photographers as kind of surfing.

You're kind of following the wave and the water currents are constantly changing.

I mean, I've been in this long enough as mentioned, you know, I started out, you know, film in the dark room and saw how the techno, just as my eyes were starting to not work as well, auto focus comes in and saves me.

And then it goes to digital.

Whereas before I used to think, "You know, if I'm gonna go out shooting, "it's gonna cost me a hundred bucks."

It gotta develop the film and, you know, all that.

There's still a whole niche following of film and so on is making a comeback.

Interestingly, a lot of young people are getting into film cameras and getting the old cameras.

And I think it's a bit of a response to growing up with digital.

But, you know, with all these changes, you have to find a way to keep going.

And the industry changes, you know, there was a whole group of amazing photographers that made their money with stock photography, for example, where they would have it with a stock agency and then a bank would buy a picture of a cloud and they'd pay $10,000 for it, and they'd put it in their, you know, retirement post or whatever.

But that completely went away because a lot of this stuff is available for free.

So, you know, assignment work is one, getting work, it's a big umbrella.

- Yeah.

- But if you're coming into the business, if you wanna get into the business and I meet a lot of people, not only young people, people who, you know, are retiring that wanna second career, you know, I think the best advice is, if you wanna make a million dollars in photography, start with 2 million.

You probably heard that one before.

(Matt laughs) - [Matt] Yes.

- But in all seriousness, you have to kind of, I think it's best to go for the dream.

So whatever your passion is pursue that, you know, create something that represents you as a photographer and go from there because you tend to get what you show.

So if you wanna do a certain kind of photography, you have to have a high quality portfolio of that.

And from there, if you wanna sell prints.

So, you know, what I've done is, you know, I've toned down the Simon work.

I'm spending a lot of time teaching as you described and, you know, there's money to be made in these workshops that I do.

- Right.

- You know, there's my website, the book.

- [Matt] Blogging.

- Private blogging.

I'm wanting to do more.

I'm wanting to maybe do a YouTube channel.

I know I'm very late to the game, but you know what, don't be discouraged, even though there's a million people out there.

- [Matt] Right.

- They all started somewhere.

And I know people that have started, you know, a year ago and have built themselves up in that short of a time to where they're able to really make some decent money with it.

But yeah, I think if you wanna, - [Matt] It's interesting.

- Maintain the passion of what got you in the first place, you don't wanna be detoured into making, you know, your pursuit of photography a job, and end up doing the kind of photography that is not that interesting to you.

But you gotta do what you gotta do, right?.

- And what you're saying is just, you gotta still keep it at the core of what your love and passion is.

- Yeah.

Otherwise, you know, maybe it's best to do it on the side and find other ways to make money and then purely love what you do when you do it.

- You say survival is success.

What do you mean by that?

- Well, I mean that, you know, again, I started when I was 14 with a camera, I loved photography.

I've done a variety of things from working at newspapers to freelancing.

I've done sports photography, photographed the Olympics.

I covered, you know, the HIV crisis in Africa.

- [Matt] Oh, wow.

- Did a book on that.

I mean, the beauty is in the diversity and in the education that you get.

And I love doing the workshops now because selfishly, you know, teaching is such a learning process.

I learned so much through the workshop experience in terms of teaching and sharing.

You learn from the other photographers that are out there.

So to be able to kind of maintain your love of something and still manage to make a living, I think it's good.

Of course you wanna thrive, but you know, when you're working, you know, for yourself, you're gonna have the ups and the downs.

And the beauty is, you know, the best thing is always around the corner.

You're not tied into anything when you work for yourself, and when an opportunity arises, you know, you can grab it, latch onto it.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- They might bring it to a new level.

- What are some of the coolest things you've photographed?

- Oh gosh, yeah.

Over the years, you know, what's interesting is, you know, I've got to photograph, you know, famous people.

I photographed, you know, the Olympics, for example, music, I love music, so I've got to, and you know, through that, you get to, you know, I talked to the queen of England once.

- [Matt] Oh, that's cool.

- That's kinda cool.

- [Matt] Yeah.

- But really the coolest things for me are the exploration of places like Peoria, for example.

You know, I did a project called "America at the Edge" where I traveled all the states that bordered Canada, because my idea was when I was still a Canadian that, you know, my country Canada was becoming more like the United States.

So I set out to see what United States looked like, closest to Canada.

- [Matt] Okay.

- So I traveled all the states that bordered Canada.

Illinois doesn't border Canada land wise, so I didn't come here, but that experience was amazing because I went - [Matt] That's amazing.

- To all these places I looked for, I'm attracted to things that are different from kind of my own understanding.

So the camera is a way to get into all these crazy situations and meet all these amazing people that you wouldn't normally meet.

So for me, you know, it's not the celebrities or the famous, or even the big events, it's meeting the people, you know, the people that I come across, the people that I have empathy with, and that has been the biggest joy, I think.

And, you know, I'm a shy guy, but I have an excuse to go up to someone with the camera.

- I had a famous artist once tell me, his favorite piece is the last one that he worked on.

- Ah, yes.

I like that idea.

You know, I'm balancing sort of a work and family life.

I'm a bit of a late bloomer.

I have a seven year old son, so I don't have maybe the freedom that I once did have, or even the control of really what I wanna do.

So I wouldn't say necessarily my favorite is the last one, but I have plans to do all these things, and I'm just constantly looking to kind of challenge myself because it's the kind of a pursuit where you think, you know, there's still room to grow, there's still room to get better, there's still room of course, for more business success as well.

- Yeah.

- And you know, you're looking for all those things.

- I mean, your business is pretty diversified.

It's like, you don't wanna put all your eggs in one basket, right?

- [Steve] Yeah.

- So how can I have 12 streams of potential revenue?

This one may only bring in thousand dollars a year, but it actually helps me build my brand to bring X amount over here.

- Yeah.

I think that's when the organization comes in.

I mean, obviously the urgent pile are the big ticket items that are bringing you the bread and butter that are paying the mortgage.

You have to keep those, - [Matt] The home-run.

- Yeah.

You gotta keep those definitely, you know, in check.

At the same time, you can't overlook the potential because I've seen it.

You know, you're having a good year in one area, workshops, I put a lot of effort into that.

Of course the pandemic hits and nobody's traveling anymore.

So you have to pivot.

So you go online and you create these courses online.

So that's, - But how do you do it, right?

I mean, well, it's hard.

- It's hard, but you know, the content is there.

So you just have to figure out how to reform the content to deliver it in a different way.

So you're not reinventing the wheel.

You're just learning about how to get it out into the world so that they can give you something back.

It doesn't mean you're gonna, you know, replace the income that you lost during that pandemic with this.

But, again, that's where the survival comes in.

It will just keep you going so that now that we're coming out of it and things are starting to look a little better, we can thrive again.

So you have to pivot, but you know, photographers are used to that.

- Because you're problem solving all the time, when you're out there with your camera, dealing with the world that's changing, it's outta your control and you have to organize and, you know, put it in one picture.

- I just wanna tell you, thanks for coming in.

- This was a fun show, Steve, - Thank you.

Is that it Matt?

- That is it.

- I thought half an hour would be forever.

- Passionatephotographer.com, right?

Is that right?

- That's correct.

- Okay.

So check it out, and this was a great episode, I appreciate it.

Steve Simon, I'm Matt George, and this is episode of Business Forward.

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