- Will you consider this?

You had to flip a switch and manage to get something that generally isn't known to fly, make it useful and get it from point A to point B and beyond.

I'm Christine Zak-Edmonds.

This will all make sense in just a minute.

(lively music) A lot has changed for Sorce Enterprises since 2020.

For decades, the company was a full-service distribution center, but the company, like us, did a lot of reworking and with an abundance came and opportunity.

Welcome businessman Roy Sorce of Freshwater Company and he'll do the explaining here about Asian carp.

Welcome.

- Thank you Christine.

- So we'll start with you first.

You're a Peoria boy.

- Yes.

I was raised and lived my entire life here in Peoria, other than my short stint in Arizona when I went to school, came back to work in the family business in 1985.

At that point I worked with my father for 36 years.

Before his passing, we were in food service.

He had started a food service company back in 1971 and we were very well known in the food service industry as far as a food service distributor in the chain and quick-service business.

- And that was nine states.

and you mostly dealt with chicken?

- Yes, we did, we covered a nine-state area and in that area we dealt dealt mainly with Yum!

Brands.

Yum!

Brands is KFC, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut.

- Okay, and then you were kind of taken over and you're located, I don't know how many times I passed your building and never saw it there.

- [Roy] Right.

- On Cat Trail, or now I guess it's Main Street.

- [Roy] Sure.

- And there's the river and there's all these fish jumping up like crazy.

- Yes, for 36 years of my life, I drove over the river every single day to work, as I live in Dunlap, and never really looked at the water much other than just passing it over.

- [Christine] Um-hmm.

- So in 19, or in 2020, I was approached by the city of East Peoria to look at putting ice machine onto our property for the commercial fishermen.

And my question was why?

That question became answered or was answered by the commercial fishermen, it was for them to be able to harvest and ice their fish down, called Asian carp.

- All right.

And there's four different types of Asian carp?

- [Roy] Yes there are.

- In our river.

And they're all pretty prolific.

- They're all very prolific.

The most prolific, one are the silver carp, but there are four types of Asian carp.

The most prolific is silver carp and then the big-head carp, which is a very similar species and fish to them, and they are both top-water feeders.

They feed off the plankton algae in the river.

And then the third most prolific species is the grass carp.

And then the least abundant is the black carp, 'cause they've been fished out due to their very destructive nature in our rivers.

- Well, so we dispel a rumor that they're bottom feeders and they're cleaning up the river, actually.

- Yes these fish are mid-water filter feeders and they are a very clean, healthy fish.

They're actually the second healthiest fish you can eat.

They are very good-tasting, high-nutrient, high in protein fish that is utilized in many areas of the world.

Actually, it's the most aqua-cultured and the most consumed fish in the world.

The only place it's not consumed on a regular basis is United States.

- Hmm.

And that is because we haven't really known about 'em for years until they basically took over and we had the Redneck Fishing Derby and all that stuff.

- Right, it's interesting because most people's perception of these fish was they were the bottom feeders, which they are not.

And all they ever heard about them is they're a fish that's just taking over the waterways.

And they have done that, but if we utilize these fish in a positive manner, using them for food and other nutrients and other things, you can utilize these fish for, they can be harvested and they can provide many benefits to not only our area, other surrounding states, but everywhere in the U.S. - Well in the world you said you were getting phone calls, and messages from people all over the world because one interesting fact is that you're using the entire fish.

Everything that is in that body of fish.

- Correct, that is very correct.

And, and so we started our business with a goal of a zero waste product.

We didn't wanna waste any part of this fish because it's environmentally prudent to not waste.

So because these fish are so prolific and they are so abundant, we try to find use for these fish in the most positive manner.

So we utilize every single part of the fish from the protein, which is the white meat in the fish, to the skins, the scales, the bones.

We actually utilize the heads, other body parts.

The least common, or the least desirable use for these fish is fertilizer, although it's the most common use for these fish right now.

We are trying to build that market to develop a human consumption market and also a pet treat market.

- Well, the interesting thing about this also is, I think if I went to a restaurant I would not, because I've seen them fly and jump in people's boats and everything, I probably wouldn't order Asian carp.

There's different names for other different fish, like Orange Roughy is Slimehead or something- - Correct.

- Kind of disgusting sounding like that.

- Right, and you would never order a Slimehead on a menu, but you would.

(laughs) - Somebody might.

- Somebody might, but it's doubtful as you'd order, it'd be a very abundant fish on the menus.

How's that?

But on the other side, these fish, because they were called Asian carp, had that stigma attached to them.

The State of Illinois went through a rebranding effort and now these fish are called Copi, and they're using those as a branding marketing tool to introduce or reintroduce these fish to the American public.

That way these fish aren't stigmatized with that carp or that four letter word.

Copi means copious, means abundant.

But at the same time, people need to understand, like I said before, these are very healthy, good fish to consume.

- Right, and they're not gamey, they're not fishy smelling.

I went through your whole facility and I really didn't smell anything.

- Right, and that's very unique because number one, these fish are harvested outta the Illinois River and our fishermen are using ice to make sure these fish are kept in a quality state at all times.

That way they can be consumed, for humans or even pets, so that they don't have that fishy taste.

Most fish you eat or consume in the supermarkets have been frozen and thawed at least once, or a lot of times twice.

- [Christine] Um-hmm.

- Because these fish are utilized in the proper manner, there are so many alternative uses for these.

- Yeah, and you're finding all kinds of ways to do it and you're kind of inventing your own machinery in order to get the job done and process the entire body.

- Yes, it is a very interesting situation because these fish, we really don't have equipment readily available to us in the U.S. to process these fish.

They're are very bony fish.

That's why they're not consumed in the U.S. You would see filets on the menu, but you would have to pick around the bones.

- [Christine] Um-hmm.

- In other cultures they're used to that, we're not.

So there are very small amounts of these fish can be harvested without bones in them, but at the same time, we have found a machine that will work to remove all the bones from these fish and mince them into a product that would be similar to a ground hamburger or a ground turkey.

- Um-hmm, and it even kinda looks like it too, if you think about it.

But some people are real fickle and picky about that.

They only want the white meat.

They don't want any of the blood in those products.

- Right, so the difference is when we mince up the products now, if you leave all the nutrients in these fish, it has a darker color, similar to consistent with hamburger.

However, if you remove those blood lines out of these fish, which is a process you can do manually or there are machines that will help do some of that, it becomes a very white product, it looks similar to ground turkey.

- And you have a fisherman's co-op that goes out every day and they haul in all kinds of nets' worth of.

So tell me about that.

- So when we first started, like I had mentioned, the interesting part was we had had to start with the ice machine.

And because I had to learn about these fish, and I knew nothing about them, when I first- - [Christine] Except passing over the river.

- Except passing over the river, exactly.

So I knew very little about them.

So it was a matter, I had to bring the commercial fishermen in and have them go over the qualities of these fish and what these fish could be utilize for.

So the the interesting part is that we found all these alternative uses for these fish, with their help.

But we also formed that co-op, which is a very key part to this whole process.

We formed the Midwest Fishing Co-Op with the help of Western Illinois University.

And these fishermen now work together for our common goal, to increase jobs in the area, to help the environment, and provide a sustainable food source for the U.S. - And you're calling this a Blue Economy?

- We call this a Blue Economy because it's water-based.

And Blue Economy to us means utilizing all the fish in a positive manner, having a positive impact on the environment, and at the same time, providing a sustainable, edible food source for people.

- And the area that they mostly fish is from Bartonville up to approximately, Henry, and you call that the Peoria Pool.

- We call that the Peoria Pool.

Most of our fishermen fish in that area, from Bartonville to Henry, as you mentioned.

And from there, we harvest about 150,000 pounds a week.

- [Christine] A week.

- On an average, yes.

That's a lot of fish.

- That's crazy.

- We could harvest twice that amount and still not make a dent in the population in the Peoria area.

The the fish are so prolific and so abundant that, as you fish them out, the biomass doesn't change, but the size of the fish change.

You fish the smaller ones out and even the larger ones, but the biomass remains the same.

So we have to fish that down even farther.

- And, but you don't think you'll ever run out, at this point?

- It's very doubtful at this point, we'll run out.

Because if you go from Bartonville down to Beardstown, there's another 30 million pounds of fish we can harvest in that area.

They are so prolific and so abundant that they should be utilized in a positive manner and not just treated as if they're a horrible thing for the environment.

- Well, so talking about prolific, - Um-hmm.

- We have a picture of a a 65 pounder.

- Yes.

- And how many eggs were in it?

In that 65 pound fish, there was 20 pounds of eggs in this fish.

And that 20 pounds, if you visualize the egg's about the size of a pinhead.

So each fish, a mature state, which is usually two to three years old, they can produce 2 million eggs per spawn.

Some of these fish are able to spawn two to three times a year, in ideal conditions.

And the ideal conditions happen to exist in the Peoria Pool.

We have the right current, the right water temperature and the right water depth.

So we find that fish fill into that area and backfill to spawn in that exact area.

- Well, one of the things that is worrisome to a lot of people, is that they'll get into the Great Lakes.

But you just said that they that need a current, so really they wouldn't be able to be as prolific in the Great Lakes if they got in there?

- There's not been any scientific studies showing that, but we feel, and the fishermen feel, that the ideal river, or the ideal conditions for these fish to be prolific are in river conditions.

That's where they were originally found in China.

And that they do very well in those conditions because they need that current, they need that constant moving water to be prolific.

- [Christine] Okay.

- In lakes, they just grow bigger and bigger and bigger.

So they will, and if they aren't already in the Great Lakes, it's something that the more we harvest out of the Peoria pool, the less chance of getting into the Great Lakes and making an impact in there.

- And there's no predators.

- There are no natural predators of these fish.

As a larvae or as an egg and as a small fish, they do provide nutrients and food for other fish in the area that would eat them.

- Yes.

- Well, you also went to the Illinois State Fair.

- Yes.

- To show your product.

You were working with the Illinois Department of Natural Resources.

- Yes.

- Is that how you got the invitation or how did, what happened there?

And tell me about your couple of days there.

Sure the IDNR was very excited about launching their new Copi brand.

And when they launched the Copi brand, they wanted to get it out to the general public and just introduce it to everyone.

And being the fair usually has about a half a million people go through there, and the weather conditions were ideal this year, we gave away free product with the help of IDNR.

They actually supported that effort, to give away free samples to people that were going to Conservation World.

And the interesting part was that, I would say 99-plus percent of the people that tried it were surprised this was Asian carp.

They were impressed how well it tasted.

It didn't have a fishy taste.

It was a good quality fish that they would be interested in purchasing on a regular basis.

The other thing that the State of Illinois did, was they had the Illinois Department of Public Health recently published a survey where they tested all the fish in the Illinois River.

These fish ended up being a top pick, meaning best choice.

You can consume these fish two to three times a week due to low containment levels, very little if negligible amount of mercury, and they also have very low PCBs and other things that would deter you from eating them more than once or twice a week.

So they recommend that you can eat these fish two to three times a week, whereas other fish, like an Orange Roughy, they don't recommend you consume at all.

Salmon and tuna, they're, or at least tuna, is on the list of only consume maybe once a week or less than that, due to those containment levels.

- Right.

Did you ever imagine that you'd know this much about fish?

I mean you probably liked to fish with a rod, but- - [Roy] Right.

- Nothing like nets or anything.

- That was my fishing experience, was fishing with a line and pole.

(laughs) I knew nothing about these fish two years ago, was an interesting part.

But the more I learn about these fish, the more I intrigued I am and the more benefits we find on a, really on a weekly basis, we have people contact us and say, these fish should be utilized for this or that.

We're working on so many different avenues to introduce the American public to these fish to be utilized in a positive manner.

- And the name Copi, C-O-P-I, has not been approved yet by, I guess you need FDA approval on that?

So it's just kind of a, just a little side hustle thing, for them?

- Basically Copi is a trademark name.

- [Christine] Okay.

- The State of Illinois trademarked it.

The FDA would have to approve it to be a new name change, just similar to Orange Roughy going from Slimehead to orange Roughy.

So if the FDA approves that, then you would only have to put Copi on the label as opposed to Copi, and then below there have to say what it is, which is Asian carp, below that.

- All right.

And then a lot of people wouldn't know what that is, wouldn't know what Asian carp is.

We do because we see a lot of it all the time.

- Correct.

- In other cultures, they call these fish different by different names.

- [Christine] Um-hmm.

- So it's something that once the American public knows what the name of the fish is and it resonates with them, they'll become more interested in asking for it on a regular basis, whether it be the grocery store, whether it be a restaurant and things like that.

- And that's kind of in your view, is that's where it'll go from here?

- That's what we're looking to have happen.

We would like to see these fish in different restaurants, not only locally, but also on a national basis, because there are such an abundance of these fish everywhere.

It's not just Illinois, it goes from Illinois all the way down to the Gulf.

So they are very abundant.

They are very prolific and they can be utilized for so many positive things.

- Right, keep things blue and green for that matter.

- [Roy] Exactly.

- Well, you had mentioned earlier that they're high in protein.

What is the percentage?

So so a burger?

- [Roy] Sure.

- A Copi burger?

- Um-hmm, on a four-ounce Copi burger, you are getting almost 20 grams of protein, which is extremely high.

You're also getting all the nutrient, or a lot of iron, they're very high in iron.

They are heart-healthy, high in Omega-3s, low in Omega-6, and have all 9 essential amino acids.

- That's crazy.

- Um-hmm.

- And how did you find that out?

You've been working in partnership with Western Illinois University and Bradley and what other organizations?

- We've been working, my team and I, my co co-founders, that have helped us develop this program, have worked together to test and find these fish, what the best uses are for them, and where their nutrients levels lie and things like that.

So we've worked with different organizations, like you just mentioned, Western Illinois.

Bradley University has been a very good partner.

They just came on board this last year and they've been very interested in helping us move this whole thing forward.

We work with U.C.

Davis, who has helped us out in California.

- [Christine] Right.

- We work with University of Missouri, Missou, who's been helping us on the world hunger side.

They want to utilize these fish to help solve world hunger.

- Um-hmm, and they're fresh, then they'd be frozen and there's ways to get them to the people that they need to, and their quality is still intact?

- Yes, so the important thing is, once again, you want to treat these fish like any other fish you would go catch.

You have to keep them cold at point of catch.

So you want those fishermen to utilize that ice, chill these fish down to a certain temperature, preferably below 40 degrees, and then, we ice them again at our facility where we process them, and once they're processed, then they are put into a freezer, if we don't, if we don't sell them on a fresh basis.

- Um-hmm, and again, you have a lot of capacity there.

- We have a lot of capacity to freeze these fish and store these fish.

We would love to see them go out on a fresh basis because they, when you harvest fresh fish, they have a longer shelf life than they would if you don't process them correctly.

- Um-hmm, and you're finding out all kinds of things about this processing.

- Yes.

- You're even kind of jerry-rigging some machinery to get the job done.

- Yes, we're basically, I have a gentleman that works with me named Jared Vogel and he's one of my co-founders and partners and he basically has been helping us retrofit existing equipment to utilize, to help process these fish in a more efficient, in a better manner.

Because a lot of this has to be hand done.

It is a very laborious type process and it requires a certain skill set.

So it's a learning curve for all of us.

- Wow, you also have dog treats.

- [Roy] Yes, we do.

- Now, and it says that they're human-grade, so we could snack on these, right?

- You can snack on these if you'd like.

And we actually, we have some fishermen that do occasionally.

They are a hundred percent Asian carp.

There are no additives, no preservatives.

So these are a freeze-dried product.

And then we have a kill step in there to make sure they're a quality edible product for yourself, but mainly for your pet.

It's something that we just rolled out actually at the State Fair.

And all the proceeds go to benefit the fishermen.

So all of that proceeds go to benefit the Midwest Fishing Co-Op and the fishermen are catching these fish because they have a very difficult job.

This is not an easy job.

- [Christine] Right.

- It's very physical and demanding-type job.

- Well, when they're hauling in those nets, so each fisherman brings in about how many pounds a day then?

- Average fishermen are bringing between five and 10,000 pounds a day this time of the year.

And the reason for that is they have to utilize ice uses a, it's a one-to-one ratio.

For every pound of fish you need a pound of ice.

So depending on the size of boat they're utilizing, they can put that in there.

In the colder months, when the fish are actually easier to catch, they're more lethargic and they're, they're easier to spot.

And you can pull those in, they can bring in 15 to 20,000 pounds a day.

- So wintertime, you're just as busy as you are in the summertime.

- We are just as busy in the wintertime, actually busier in the wintertime because these fish are easier to catch.

They're much more concentrated, they're not moving around as much and it's easier to net them, to bring 'em into your boat.

- What's the most exciting thing about this enterprise?

- The most exciting thing about this enterprise is we learn something new every single day, if not every single week.

We always find new things about these fish.

We find new ways to utilize them.

We find new ways to harvest them.

So it's a collaborative effort to make this all work.

We work with many different organizations.

The City of East Peoria, the City of Peoria has helped us utilize different avenues to benefit what we're doing.

So it's a collaborative effort.

It's not just an effort by Sorce Freshwater.

We could not do this by ourself, we need community support.

We need support from the surrounding area and everywhere in the state.

- And what restaurants locally, has there been a lot of interest, are are we selling any there or providing anything?

- We are currently only servicing or selling this product to Kelleher's right now.

They utilize these fish.

Pat has been a very prominent force in the fishing industry, along with other individuals.

He wants to promote these fish and they can be promoted.

We need more distribution and that's what we're working on right now.

Because it's hard for us to drop off product at every little restaurant.

So we need, we're working on currently getting distribution on a local, regional, and national basis.

- And how do you do that?

- We work with not only the State of Illinois, but also with other distributors that process or that, that sell on a regular basis and want to utilize these fish and help the environment, and help create jobs, and help use sustainable resource.

- Well you said that the silver carp, the the flyers.

- [Roy] Yes.

- That they are the most nutritious?

The rest of 'em, you're you're processing all of them correct, all four types?

- We process all, we process all three types.

The fourth one, which is the black carp, we don't process because we don't harvest a lot of those.

The fishermen get a bounty on those of a hundred dollars each fish.

I've only seen probably a half a dozen of those actually come through our facility in two years because they had fished them out years ago because they were so harmful for the environment.

The other fish actually provide a benefit to the environment by cleaning the waterways.

Our waters are actually cleaner now than they were 10 years, 10 or 15 years ago, because they are filter feeding everything.

They've reduced the contaminants in the river, they've increased the clarity in the water and increased the quality levels to where these fish are actually helping the native fish come back on a regular basis.

- That's just crazy.

You are really quite knowledgeable on this subject.

- Well, all my knowledge have been learned from the fishermen and other parties have been doing this for many more years than I have.

- Well you said 150,000 pounds a week, approximately, will you get to the point here in the next couple of years where it's 300,000 pounds, or?

- That's our goal.

Our, our goal is to make sure that the 150,000 pounds we utilize is a zero-waste product and we have a place to market those.

We wanna increase the catches, but we have to increase the market and the awareness of the individuals in the U.S. to utilize these fish in a positive manner.

The more demand for these fish, the more the fish will be harvested.

- And make sure you get the word out.

- Yes.

We have to get the word out.

We have to let everyone know that these are a high-quality, nutrient-rich fish that can benefit a lot of people.

- The Copi.

- The Copi.

- So you think once you get FDA approval on that trademark name, you think that would also help with the marketing?

- I think it would help, because then you have the federal government behind it.

Right now a state-run program.

They are trying to obviously, increase the awareness and the utilization of these fish in a human consumption market.

We have several restaurants in Chicago that utilize these fish on a very high scale.

They're utilizing them in several five-star or Michelin-type restaurants.

- [Christine] Awesome.

- Because they see the benefit of these fish, they see the quality of these fish, and they feel that there's no reason we shouldn't be utilize these on a regular basis.

- Well thank you very much for sharing this story.

My goodness, you got a lot going on.

I don't think, I don't know if I'll try the dog treat or not, but I definitely wanna try the product.

So thank you all for joining us and now we all know about Copi, also known as Asian Carp.

I hope you have a very good evening.

Stay safe and healthy, and hold happiness.

(lively music) (lively music continues) (lively music continues)