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(dramatic soaring music) - Welcome to "Business Forward".

I am your host, Matt George.

Joining me tonight, one of my main guys, David Brier.

David is the branding expert in the world.

In his website, RisingAboveTheNoise.com, you can see the depth and impact David has in this branding space.

Welcome, David.

- Thanks so much, Matt.

I mean, and to have, and to have you in my corner, that makes, that just makes me even feel that much more complete, my man.

- Well, it's funny, because, you know, I've known you now three, four years, and when I first started talking to you, one of the great things was, is you opened my eyes.

I mean, this tells you how, I guess, much I didn't know, is you opened my eyes to the difference of brand.

I think I knew what it was once you described it.

And then we talked marketing, and now, it's really all I think about, is brand.

And when I took your masterclass, I was lucky enough to be invited to be part of your masterclass, and that 13 weeks was life-changing and transformational when you look at how you look at everything you do in business.

And so, like on this show, we have a ton of entrepreneurs that come on, we have a lot of CEOs that come on.

And I think the way I've started doing a lot of these interviews now is looking at their brands, who they work for, or it's their own business, and thinking to myself, "I think maybe you need to email David and talk to him and figure out what's going on."

But.

So, welcome.

- Thank you, man.

I appreciate it.

I appreciate it so much.

- Well, I want to, I want to jump right into your book, because your book, "Brand Intervention: 33 Steps to Transform the Brand You Have into the Brand You Need".

I love the title, and what's cool about it, one of the things that when I was talking to somebody about this book, they asked, "Is this for personal brand, or is this for business brand?"

What's your response to that?

I think I know how I answered it, but what's your response?

- Well, the bottom line is, is it's very interesting when people ask that, because it actually, it really drives you into the point of, well, what do they think a brand is?

And that's where that question comes from.

Oftentimes it's a misconception, where they might think, well, is it a logo, is it the design, is it the colors?

Is it these various things that we all see and encounter?

But the bottom line is, is this, when you know that branding is, as covered in the book, the art of differentiation, those four words, branding is the art of differentiation, when you know that, then you go, "Wait a second."

All of a sudden that entire question goes away, because the bottom line is, is we live in a very noisy world, and whether you are trying to establish your brand, your differentiation in the world, or you're needing to do that for your business, the bottom line is is we need to stand apart, because different, any day of the week, different is better than better, because everyone's showing up to every conversation, saying, "Oh, we're the best, and we have the most experience, and we have the best people, and we have the this, and we have the blah, and we have the greatest choice, and we have the greatest selection, and da, da, da, da, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, blah."

You know, everyone's playing that card.

- Right.

Well, you know, when you, when you think of a lot of the, the major brands, I think it's easy to, you know, you think of a McDonald's, or you think of Nike, or you think of something like that, but you know, what I really now think of is my own personal brand, and then I also think of how that brand affects everything that I do now in my business, and in even my past business, being in the nonprofit space.

So I wanna read a quote real quick, 'cause I love this.

Daymond John, "Shark Tank" star.

I mean, he's just, he's just a cool cat.

He wrote something about you that I thought was great.

And he said, "You don't have to have money to brand, as David will show you.

It's mentality.

It's actually acting like you don't have any money and forcing creativity, exercising what I call the Power of Broke."

That's pretty strong.

That's deep.

- Well, the bottom line is it's tapping into ingenuity.

And here's the most hysterical part of that, that totally parallels with that.

When I work with individuals or companies and their products and services, it's amazing to see.

They'll go through something, and all of a sudden they'll see a 25% growth over the next year, they'll see a 50% growth over the next year, and all of that without a single dime of their marketing budget changing.

You go, "Oh!"

You know, "Wait a second.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!"

Because too many people think that marketing and branding are the same thing, which they're not.

And so what happens is, is that if you get, if you understand the sequence, branding, done right, gives marketing the ability to actually do what it should be doing.

Marketing is in the space of executing, getting the word out, getting the stuff, getting the promos done, getting stuff known.

But branding sets the stage.

It frames it so that the conversations we are having are different conversations than what everyone else is having, because with all of us being in business, people cannot come to new conclusions based on old information, and old information is everything your competitors have set up till that very moment.

- Hm.

That's strong.

Yeah, so, you know, I think back to, I'm just gonna, let's just use non-profits as an example, because non-profits, typically, people think they don't have money.

Let's use social service agencies.

They think you don't have money.

A lot of times, your platforms are outdated.

So, you know, I always used to say it's, like, our accounting system's like 1990, and, you know.

But so does your brand become stale.

And it's, so it's like, I remember one time, David, someone saying, "Yeah, we haven't changed our logo, we haven't changed our look in 28 years.

Twenty-eight years, and we haven't reinvented ourselves."

So when you look at sectors that you work with, is there a, is each potential client individualized, or do you look at it from a sector standpoint and say that, you know, everyone in this sector pretty much has to change and come of age?

'Cause that's how I kind of look at it from the nonprofit space, is the ones that make the change are actually the ones coming to the forefront and really making more money and making more change, to the good of the community.

- Yeah.

I mean, I understand the sector part.

But what I tend to do is I look at who's being served, right, that audience, because that's the more relevant thing.

Because what happens is, is, let's, let's, let me use a very simple example that we all know.

It's like we all, we all shop for, we all go to convenience stations to fill up two tanks.

One, the one we're driving, that vehicle, and then this vehicle, the biological vehicle.

So those are the two tanks we're filling up, right?

So yeah, we fill up.

You know, we get the gas, and then we go in, and what do we do?

We're gonna either get caffeinated, we're gonna get coffee, we're gonna get a caffeinated soft drink, okay?

You could say, "Well, they're different segments."

No, they're actually, they're both serving my need for wanting more energy.

And then you have a new player, a company like, that comes out with this little supplement, that little, I think about a 2.2 ounce little thing, this 5-hour ENERGY.

Great name.

So you're, you know, you're on the checkout, and for three bucks, and I love it, because their profit margins, they probably make like $2.97 on every sale, I mean.

But the thing is, is, you know, it's like no one's nursing it for, you know, 15, 20 minutes like a coffee or a soft drink.

Then it's like boom, glug.

And to them it's like speed, immediacy, and five-hour energy, that's what I get.

But now you look at that and you go, "Well, each of those is kind of like a different segment.

One's a soft drink, cold, one's a hot beverage, and one's this little shot you take."

But they're actually serving you and me.

So I look at it from the audience side.

I look at it from that side, and I go, "Okay, those are the people being served."

'Cause I have, I have dealt with some nonprofits, and they tend to look at themselves as nonprofits.

And I, and I, I'm like, I don't find that to be the most fruitful way to look at it, because you're gonna look at it through a nonprofit lens.

No.

Who are you serving?

Who are you serving?

How is that being done?

And there's a lot of ways that people solve the problem that we are basically saying we can basically help them solve.

- That's a good response.

So, you know, to your book, I wanted to ask you, when you... A book's an undertaking.

I mean, it's just one of those things to where, I think a lot of people write books, a lot of people sometimes don't write good books, and then there's subject matter books like this that are actually almost, to me, this was a book you'd find in a college, almost, because, but it's, but 10 times easier to read.

And so, like, I learned so much reading from your book that I'm sitting here going, "There has to be a lot of thought and a lot of, like, planning for the average person to be able to read this and have that aha moment," right?

So how do you write a book like this and make it readable in such a great way that...

I think I told you before the show, I've read this book probably more than you.

And I refer back to certain chapters.

I've actually got 'em, you know, earmarked with Post-it notes right now.

And how do you do that?

- Well, it's interesting, because I actually had written the book three times.

The first time, I said, "Oh, I think this is pretty good," and I gave it to my editor.

And I personally, I found it daunting, actually, because it's like, if you ask me to write an article or talk about something, I can do that very quickly, because I know the beginning, I know the middle, I know the end result that I want the reader to have.

And it's kind of finite, right?

I don't have to like, get on a pair of binoculars and go, "How (indistinct).

I can't see this.

I can't see the end."

So the, just the whole notion of how much it needed to cover was daunting.

So I wrote first one and my editor said, "You know, David, this stuff is good.

It's not you."

It was like, it was like a gut punch.

I was like, "Whoa!"

So I did it again.

He goes, "This is a little better, and it's good.

David, it's not you."

And I'm like going, "Wait a second."

I've now just been, I've just got into the ring twice.

I've been knocked down twice, and I'm like, "What the hell's going on here?"

So what ended up occurring was I looked and I said, "Okay, what can I, what do I do successfully that I actually can navigate and I could do it?"

Well, I do, I do that with posts, I do it with blog articles, and all kinds of stuff all the time.

I was like, "Alright, I'm gonna approach this," because I was doing this after having been, I've been doing this for 43 years.

This was at, when, at the point in time when I, I had already been doing this for 35 years, and I saw consistent blind spots, consistent pitfalls happening all the time, from the most experienced, international, global CEOs to local startups.

And so it didn't matter, they all had the same blind spots.

So I want, that's why I want, the impetus for writing the book.

Well, what ended up happening was I said, "If I were writing, if I were writing a blog post, what would I do?

What are the points I want to cover?"

And then I started just going, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point.

I was like, (rolling Rs), and I was like, "Oh, okay."

And I let it sit for a day or two or three, and then I came back, I was like, "Oh, there's a few more."

Da, da, da.

"Oh, these.

Nah."

Threw 'em away.

Now I had my outline.

That was how I basically approached it.

And I was like, "Okay, what do people need to know?"

Because as you know, as I know, the book, and for those that don't know, there's the size of the type.

There's the size of the type, everybody.

That's how big it is right there.

It's large.

- [Matt] That's why I like it.

That's why I like it.

- Everybody loves it.

I didn't realize how much people would love it.

And so, and so it had... And actually, it was, the first thing that happened was I showed it to my daughter.

And part of the reason that inspired that, I was annoyed, because I do enjoy books, I do enjoy business books, I was annoyed at reading.

I found that these 250 to 300-page business books always had kinda like what I called "the stuff" somewhere in like 10 or, 10 or 15 pages, somewhere buried in the middle of the book.

It was like, "Oh, that's what I've been looking for."

And all, everything prior to that was preamble, everything after that was, was whatever, more examples and extrapolations.

But there was that little section.

I was like, "Why is the author putting me on a treasure hunt to find the goods?

What if I just want the goods?"

So that's what I built the book on.

And so what happened is I showed it to my daughter, and when I was doing the layout, and I said, "Hey, I have a question," 'cause she's an entrepreneur.

I said, "Does this chapter make sense to you?"

And I think the chapter was four pages, which you could read in like about a minute, a minute-and-a-half, right?

And so, and so she, so she reads it.

She goes, "Totally.

This is great."

And she goes, "Dad, you get me."

And she's a millennial.

And she goes, "You get me."

I'm like, "What do you mean?"

She goes, "It's like a tweet!"

I said, "What do you mean?"

She goes, "Well, this is like, this is like one or two sentences per page.

It's awesome."

- Oh, sweet.

- And I was, and I was like, "How awesome is that?"

But here was the real payoff.

When I saw the first person, who was 50-plus, after the book was published, first person opens up the book and sees the inside for the first time.

And they said, "Finally!"

I'm like, "Finally what?"

And they said, "A book I can read without my cheaters!"

(Matt and David laughing) And so I was like, "Okay!"

I hit it.

I hit it on both ends of the spectrum.

So that's, that's how it worked.

- I think when you talk about that 250, 300 page book, you're talking about there's fluff.

And this isn't fluff.

What it is, is it's nuggets.

I mean, that's what I like about it.

It's, it's like, I didn't even wanna...

The book's so, it's hardback, it's nice.

Like I, I didn't even, usually, I'll mark up books with highlighters and things like that.

I didn't on this one, because the nuggets are already there, and you... That's what I liked the most about the book, by the way.

So let me, let me ask you this.

When you talk about personal brand, I didn't really know this until I actually finished your masterclass, but when you talk about personal brand, am I right that saying that no matter who it is, like everybody's got their own brand, their own unique brand, but really, when you read this and apply the principles in this book, like, it's some of the, I guess, foundational principles in this book, it, really, they all apply to everybody, even though they have their own individual need.

Is that a good way of saying it?

- 100%.

- Yeah.

- I mean, look.

I mean, here's the deal.

We've all been in a room.

Alright, let's use an example that we all could relate to.

We've all been in a room, a conference room where there's been multiple people.

It could be five people, eight people, 10 people, 12 people.

Okay?

One or two of those people are gonna stand out.

The rest are gonna be, "What's their name again?"

"Who were they?"

"Who was there?"

- Yeah.

- They blend in.

And that's the choice.

The bottom line is, it's not, "Do we have a brand?"

It's like, you know what?

Everyone listening to this right now, everyone has a brand.

The real question is, and the only question is, are you managing it?

Are you being deliberate?

Are you actually making conscious choices to have the kind of outcome?

Like for example, I have, I am very intent, as you know.

We know each other, we're friends.

You know that I have every intent, when I'm done having a conversation with somebody, that they are enriched in some way, that they are a little bit smarter, they've realized something that could be done better, swifter, a way that they can make themselves more relevant, more prosperous, more impactful in the world.

That's my objective, whether it's a five-minute conversation or it's a two-hour conversation.

- Well, here, this is funny how this little segue is.

One of my favorite chapters is Chapter 11.

And it's, "As a Brand, You Can't Afford to be Selfish".

And one of the things you write in there is, "Who can we transform by our product?"

So it's like, how are you gonna make that impact?

Who can we change by our product?

It's one of my favorite sentences, 'cause it's so simple if you think about it, though.

But a lot of times, in brand, whether it's personal or your business, don't you find that people overthink a lot too?

- All the time.

All the time.

But, I mean, that's one component.

There's this other parallel component, which is that they undershoot.

They think that this is the finish line, when in actual fact that's the starting line.

Like I'll give you, I'll give you a for instance.

I'm always fascinated, 'cause you know I spend a fair amount of social platform time on LinkedIn.

Well, I'm always interested when people talk, "Oh, you know, you gotta have self-awareness.

You gotta have self-awareness.

You gotta know who you are.

You gotta like, look out for number one," da, da da, da, da.

And I'm going, "Excuse me?"

Because here's the, here's the thing.

To me, if someone is going to be on the journey of self-awareness, I have one metric that I go by with regard to self-awareness.

Self-awareness must result in me and my space getting bigger, where I am including others more, where I am benefiting others more, where I am being, where I have a, more of a lever to have a greater impact.

And it's gotta go outward.

And here's the difference.

Those that go, "I need to discover myself," that's not outward, that's inward.

And so the thing is, is that if it's just going as far as, "I have now had self-realization.

I now know who I am," and that's it, and you stopped, that to me is selfish awareness.

The other one is actual self-awareness, because you now have the platform to actually emanate and radiate, and be of true value to others.

That to me is the difference.

Selfish awareness stops at discovery of self, self-awareness actually starts with a discovery of self and goes outward.

- I love it.

Another chapter, Chapter 32, is my other favorite, "Consumers Demand Differences".

That is, that's strong.

And it's like you said, each chapter's only a few pages, but those nuggets are strong.

You know, Grant Cardone, he said something on the back of your book, and I've heard him say it before, you know, when he talks about it.

He says, "David's solutions for branding will revolutionize the way you think about it.

David is a branding genius."

When you, I know you're used to it now, but at the same time, you're always flattered, and you know you're doing well in a business when you get Grant Cardone or Daymond John... You talk about some of the biggest brands in the world from an individual standpoint.

That's when you know you've hit your mark.

I mean, do you think that way?

Like, when you get something like that from a Grant Cardone, is that just as cool as it gets?

- It is.

It's cool.

And I'm like, "How much bigger could it get?

What's my next high?"

I don't, I thousand percent appreciate it, thousand percent value it.

And it's a nice validation, but it's kind of like, it's like a great, like any great athlete.

Like, Michael Jordan didn't just go, "Bam, I made that shot.

Whoo!

And that was a hard shot to make.

I'm gonna take the rest of the night off."

Nope.

He was right back in there for the next play.

So that's kinda like the mentality that I operate on, is like, "Okay, cool.

That was great, and what's next?

What's the next, the next echelon that I can bring it to?"

Because there's no shortage.

Like, you deal with plenty of business people, I deal with plenty of business people.

There's no shortage of misinformed or ill-informed, or just plain, you know, business people who are ignorant of the power of branding.

- You know, someone asked me, they said one time, they said, "You're just one of the, a really good fundraiser.

I can't believe.

Your events are fun," and this and that.

And kind of the same thing.

You take the compliment as, you appreciate it, you're humble, but at the same time, my response was, and I think this has to do with branding, as my response was, "I'm not the best fundraiser.

I'm the best storyteller."

- Mm.

And I love it.

And I love that distinction, because, because I, you know, I've done as a little side thing for, you know, causes that I support, I've raised funds.

And it was very funny.

Someone came up with a similar question, and they said, "David, when did you decide to be a fundraiser?"

And I said, "I never decided to become a fundraiser."

I said, "The only thing that I'm good at is I'm good at helping people kinda shift their viewpoint about things."

I said, "That's what I'm good at."

- Yeah.

(both chuckling) So kind of a personal question here.

Like, how do you, how do you go into a business and, like, break the news to them that, really, their business stinks because of, really, them?

I mean, if you think about it, because it's their own personal brand, but they had the wherewithal to be able to bring you in and hire you, or at least speak to you.

But is it hard sometimes to go in there and break the news that, you know, "This isn't working, this isn't working, this isn't working?"

Or do you just flat out say, "If you don't change it, you might go belly."

How do you do that, balance that?

- Well, one is is I don't make it personal.

I don't say, you know, I say, "I know this is your baby, and that makes you the worst father under the sun."

I don't say, I don't do that.

I don't insult them.

I don't alienate 'em.

But what I do say is, I said, "Here's the deal.

I've looked at, I've looked at your industry.

I've looked at the opportunity.

This is not doing you any justice."

And then I start, and then I start asking and poking questions.

Like sometimes I'll ask, I'll say, I'll say, "Tell me, tell me about your business.

Tell me why I, if I'm a prospective customer, why should I, you know, forget your competition and just, like, go with you?"

And then they kind of give me their spiel.

Sometimes it's five minutes, sometimes it's 25 minutes.

And I say, and after they're done and they've exhausted everything they had to say, I thank them and I say, "Now let me ask you something.

Why do I know if I went to a number of your competitors, they would basically tell me the same thing as you just told me?"

That's at which, that's the point at which they go, you see a little part of them die right in front of your face.

And they're like, they go, "Uhhh."

And then, and you know, and sometimes, sometimes I, I mean, there was one client.

They had something in the HVAC space, so heating, ventilation, air conditioning.

And I would always mispronounce.

They came to me and they said, "David, we really would like for you to help us with the rebrand."

And I said, "Well, what's the," I said, "Well, why should I, what, tell me about blah," and I would say their company name.

They'd say, "David, that's not the way it's pronounced."

I said, "Well then, how is it pronounced?"

They say, "Well, it's like this."

I said, "Let me ask you something."

Now, I know, I consider myself, I think I'm pretty smart, pretty observant.

So I'm like, I immediately looked and say, think to myself, if I mispronounced it, what are the odds that- - Yeah.

- What are the odds?

And I said, so I said, "Let me ask," I said, "Let me ask you something."

I said, "What percentage of people pronounce it correctly versus, and pronounce it incorrectly?"

They said, "About 50% get it right."

I said, "Why would you have a brand that actually people can't even pronounce?"

(chuckling) - Oh, that's good.

Well, David, I appreciate you.

I love it.

I've said it before, we could have you on for hours after hours, but I appreciate having on.

This book is awesome, and thank you so much.

I'm Matt George, and this is another episode of "Business Forward".

(lively music) (lively music continuing) (lively music continuing) (lively music continuing) (lively music fading) - Thanks for tuning into "Business Forward", brought to you by PNC.

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