(upbeat music) - Welcome to At Issue.

I'm H. Wayne Wilson.

Thank you as always for joining us for half-hour discussion, this time about the Abraham Lincoln presidential library and museum, of course, located in Springfield, Illinois.

And we have an opportunity coming up to talk about the past and the future of that library and museum with the new executive director, Christina Shutt, welcome to At Issue.

- Thanks for having me today.

- And congratulations on being named the new executive director.

- Thank you so much.

It's still a little bit surreal.

- Well, I'll point out to the audience that you're only two months on the job, so we have to keep that in perspective as we have the conversation.

But nonetheless, a learning curve for you.

- Yeah, absolutely.

You know, I've been in libraries and museums, really my whole life.

And so it's a, it's a little bit bigger of a library and museum.

That's sort of the way I look at it.

- Most recently you were done in Little Rock.

- I Was, yeah.

I was the executive director for the Mosaic Templars Cultural Center, which is in downtown Little Rock.

- And just real briefly, that is a... - It's the state's African-American history and culture museum.

So it's similar to the Lincoln museum in that it's a state entity, but a focus on African-American history and culture.

- And you have advanced degrees that are appropriate for operating a museum and library - I do, I have a master's degree in history as well as a master's degree in archives management and library science.

- And as we mentioned, library and museum, could you explain the difference between those two?

Because they're two separate buildings down in Springfield.

- They are two separate buildings, but we'd like to think of it as sort of one entity.

The museum is what most people see when they come through our front doors.

So they see the exciting and engaging exhibits.

But the library really is what feeds those exhibits.

All of our historical collections are part of the library and not just our collections on Lincoln, but really our collections on the state of Illinois.

So we have over 20 million items in our collection that document Illinois and Illinois history.

- And only a fraction of those are on display in the museum.

- Only a small fraction.

So one of the things that we hope to start doing more of is sharing more of those collections with people in the public.

- And about how many visitors do you get in a typical year?

- We average between 220 to 250,000 visitors each year.

We recently, right before I started, we welcomed our 5 millionth visitor to the museum and its history.

- And being that we've talked about, the difference between the library and the museum.

We had a chance to come down and visit you and your staff down there to look at some items that may or may not be on display in the future.

But we got an inside look and I want to share those items with the individuals who are watching.

This is the exterior of the library.

- [Christina] It is, so what you're looking at here is Tad's Cannon.

And this was something that after the death of Willie, Lincoln had asked that a toy be found or created for her son to play with, to cheer him up.

And I love that this cannon really helps illustrate Lincoln as a father, that he cared about his son's wellbeing and that as someone who had experienced loss in his own childhood, he could really empathize with the son.

- [Wayne] And the pin was bent because this actually was a working model.

- [Christina] It was a working model.

So they bent the pin so that he wouldn't hurt himself while playing, but his son was known to play soldier.

Of course, he would have seen soldiers in Washington DC.

And so he enjoyed playing soldier and playing as little boys do today.

- [Wayne] And that's not unusual because it was about the early 1860s that that occurred, here is the 13th Amendment, one of three copies that have the signature of Abraham Lincoln.

- [Christina] It Does.

So this is a super rare copy of the the 13th Amendment.

And what's so great about it is this is a document that is core to who we are as Americans.

It was purchased by the state in the 1940s and added to the collection because we understand the value of it.

While Lincoln wasn't required to sign it, as presidents don't sign Amendments, he wanted to sign it because this for him was his crowning achievement as president and as a lawyer.

- [Wayne] And it was also signed by senators and representatives.

- [Christina] It was signed by senators and representatives as well.

But again, Lincoln wasn't required to sign the document, but he wanted to sign it to showcase his pride for it.

- [Wayne] And then next we have the, this is a copy of the Sangamon County colored citizens directory.

- I love this item in our collection.

This really helps to illuminate the African-Americans who lived in Sangamon county.

One of the neat things about it is that it actually lists street addresses in it, in addition to the sort of notable citizens of the time.

So, as you see here, you see some of the, the fire chief and the firefighters.

So you can tell the types of things that the community was proud of, that they were proud to have their own firehouse, that they were proud to celebrate the citizens, the black citizens that were in town.

One of the reasons this is a favorite of mine in the collection is my own research about my family history.

I used a directory just like this to help learn about my family's history in Springfield, Missouri.

So I thought it's neat that here in Springfield, Illinois, we have something very similar.

- So there were about 3000 African-Americans living in Springfield in 1926.

This is the 1926 directory, but Springfield, in terms of the history, of black history, it's very important to remember the 1908 riots, because it was one of the key instigators of the formation of the NAACP.

- It is.

Yeah.

So I think one of the things that's often overlooked history in America is that we had these, this change, that is African-Americans were really embracing their rights, their freedoms, which many had fought in the Civil War to earn, which the 13th Amendment guaranteed.

They often faced backlash in those communities.

And Springfield was like so many other communities across America where that backlash happened.

But thankfully, as a result of, of that out of sort of the rotten lemons of that, we get the lemonade that is the NAACP.

- And before we leave the idea of those videos that are in the library collection, I want to mention Tad Lincoln because as we tape this, and this was taped in advance of the airing on July 15th is when we're taping this, that's an important date because it's the 150th anniversary of the passing of Tad.

Because president Lincoln only had one child who lived to adulthood.

- Yes, and we're fortunate at the library museum to have a number of items from Robert's collection, including some of his notebooks.

- [Wayne] I want to look at two different topics and get your perspective on the pivotal presidency of Abraham Lincoln and then separately, what was it about Abraham Lincoln, the turning points in his life, your perspective on the life of the president, first, the pivotal presidency?

- [Christina] Well, I think the fact that we teach American history as before Lincoln and after Lincoln tells you the kind of magnitude that he had as a president and the ripple effects of those today, the fact that I'm sitting here in the studio with you talking is a direct result of Lincoln and the 13th Amendment, my enslaved relatives lived in Missouri.

And so because of that, they weren't freed by the emancipation proclamation, but by the 13th Amendment.

So I think that speaks to, you know, who Lincoln was, but really his impact on America, on American diplomacy, on the way we even think about the presidency, you know, and Lincoln, in terms of that sort of the person, he amazes me today because of the way in which he was always so learning-centered and learning-focused, he was not someone who knew a great deal about military strategy before he became president.

But he went over to the library of Congress and checked out books and he learned, and he taught himself those things.

So he was learning what it meant to be a military general.

- Were the turning points in his life from your perspective?

- Oh, absolutely, you know, I think a significant turning point was his marriage to Mary, and Mary was someone who was a close confidant and really up until his, the day that he steps into the White House, she is his closest companion.

And when it comes to talking about a political strategy about their own desires to serve in the public sphere.

So I would definitely say, you know, though that was a huge point in his life, his father, even as a child, his mother's death and his father's remarriage is what spurs his love for reading and literacy and books that he continues well into his adult life.

For someone who was never really formally educated in the ways that we are today and that many of our presidents are, Lincoln, was someone who again, really taught himself.

He taught himself to be a lawyer.

He taught himself to be a politician.

He taught himself to be president.

It's pretty remarkable to me, I think.

- And of course the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

- And of course the Lincoln-Douglas debates as well.

And I think for many people, that's the point that he really catapults into the national stage.

But I don't think we can be remiss in talking about or thinking about things like his Peoria speech or other remarks that Lincoln made.

He appeared countless times before judges, as a lawyer, he appeared before the Illinois Supreme Court, all of these moments really helped to shape Lincoln as a person.

- In writing the circuit, Metamora, the courthouse still stands.

So a lot of turning points in the life of Abraham Lincoln.

We showed video of items that are not on display that are in the collection of the library, but we did take a look at one item that is on display right now at the museum, and that is a new addition to the museum.

- [Christina] It is, so we have a wonderful donor, Guy Fraker, who was a Bloomington, Illinois, lawyer and Lincoln historian.

And he recently donated a letter to us.

That's a letter written by Lincoln in response to a letter he received from his friend, Elihu Powell who was a lawyer in Peoria, and in the letter.

- [Wayne] And this is the lobby, for those that have not been down there, this is the lobby.

And showing the cabin that's in the big, huge lobby as you enter the museum.

And then there is a treasures section.

- [Christina] There is a treasure section, which is where this letter is, but one of the things I love about our lobby is all of the families who take pictures of their families standing next to the Lincoln family, trying to see, you know, who was taller than Lincoln.

It's one of the fun moments of my day getting to take those photos.

- [Wayne] And this is right outside the treasures display.

And then inside the treasures display is that letter that Lincoln wrote to Elihu Powell right there.

So explain, explain what he was trying to, because he decided he did not want to be a representative.

- [Christina] He did, so at the time, if he was a representative, then he could not also run for the Senate because we do politics different today than we did back then.

- [Wayne] Senators were appointed back then.

- [Christina] They were appointed back then.

So what Lincoln is acknowledging to his friend is yes, he knows he can't be a representative if he wants to run for Senate.

What's great about this letter is it illustrates his political ambitions much earlier than most people think about.

- [Wayne] And we should point out the letter was 1854 and he did not become a Senator.

- He did not become a Senator in 1854, of course, as he has a couple of other things that happen, including the Lincoln-Douglas debates after that.

So again, it's pretty remarkable to think about Lincoln and his ongoing desire for public service, to serve his community.

He always has an eye towards them.

- We've seen the library and now we've seen the museum.

Do you have a vision as to what changes you might or improvements you might make with the library museum?

- Yeah, I think one of the things that we're really looking towards is how can we be good community partners and good community neighbors?

How can we help illuminate the story and the life and times of Lincoln in a more meaningful and relevant way for people?

We love that visitors enjoy coming to visit the library and museum, but we want to be able to share more of those collections with people.

We want to showcase more of Illinois history and to do so in a way that really encompasses the intergenerational nature of our visitors.

- There have been some controversies around the library museum.

I will point out that these all occurred before you came on board as executive director, but nonetheless, you must be aware of them.

And I do want to talk about them because it might influence how you handle things in the future.

And one of those is the top hat.

It was part of what was called the Taper collection.

It was a big purchase about $25 million if I recall, and the hat was valued at about $6 million.

Subsequently it was primarily determined that the hat probably never belonged to Abraham Lincoln.

So the question to you is how do you go about vetting items that are either donated or purchased or come into the collection?

- So I think one thing with the hat in particular, that's important to acknowledge is that the hat is actually part of the Foundation's collection.

And so only when the Foundation has paid off the debt, those items become part of the museum.

In terms of vetting, we look at lots of factors to determine how items end up in the collection.

Sometimes things were donated to us, but whether they're donated or purchased, we always look and see, well, does this, how does this fit within the collection?

How does this help to illuminate the life and times of Lincoln, does this help to expand or to share more, or maybe even a different angle about Lincoln or about Illinois history that we didn't know before?

- Another issue that that never really was shown that there was a display, it was called "Spice Traders, Saboteurs".

It actually came from the spy museum in Washington, DC.

And there was money laid out to have that come to the museum.

And then the museum said, we probably should take a closer look at this, and you decided not to show it, why?

- I think a lot of things had happened that year.

Of course, that exhibit was about 10 years old when it was on schedule to come to the museum.

But the murder of George Floyd had happened and people were thinking different about their museums and maybe they had in the past, there was a different kind of vibe going on all across the country, in terms of exhibitions, people calling for different types of exhibitions, for different types of programming.

And the museum, I believe made the right call in canceling that exhibit.

One of the items that was part of the exhibit was a Klan robe.

And it was not something that I think the community was prepared to talk about, to discuss that they were ready for, you know, especially here in Illinois and Mississippi, where I have colleagues that have Klan robes on display.

That's a different story.

Their community embraces that in a much different way than they do here in Illinois.

And so that's one of the things that we always have to look, even with vetting exhibits is looking at and saying, okay, what is it that our community needs?

What is the exhibit that most resonates with them and helps them to understand their world better?

- So would there be a policy of when appropriate to have people take a look at these traveling exhibits before they're put on display?

- Absolutely.

So even now we're starting to think about community advisory groups and getting outside folks to come in and really look at exhibitions, look at programming and help us to put together things in a collaborative way, that it's not just that we're coming to you on the back end after we've already had the exhibit up, but we're coming to you on the front end saying, we're putting together this exhibit, or we're going to have this temporary show in our space.

And we want to know, how can we more meaningfully engage people with this exhibition.

- Sam Wheeler had been the state historian for several years and then in 2019, he was dismissed.

And there's been discussion.

That position has not been filled.

There's been discussion about, should we keep it as one position or do we divide it into two different positions?

What is the status of the state historian?

- So right now we're still kind of looking at options.

The plan is to move forward with it as two separate positions in part because one of the things that we do as a museum is we're doing lots of research on our collections.

We're supporting researchers, supporting books and documentaries.

And so it's very important that we have a director of research and in our case, interpretation as well, who really is focused on that work, focused on the day-to-day work that goes on with that.

And having that separate from the person who's the state historian, who's focused more on holistically around on the state and on the state's history.

- So would that person be the one, the historian would be researching?

And then there would be another position that would reach out to the public?

- Yeah, it's similar to that.

So really the research and interpretation is about what we're doing as a museum.

How are we engaging the museum on that public, engaging the public from the museum and how are we focused on telling that story?

So telling the story of Illinois, how do we do that in a meaningful way?

How do we help people understand their history as a community, and having a director of research and interpretation and having that person focused on that, I think gives us more of a targeted approach.

It helps us to help the community and to really do our jobs as public servants and as public historians better.

- Two months before your arrival, you arrived in early June, April 1st, the library museum split away from the Foundation, the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Foundation.

Can you give us a little bit of history as to why that happened and what the role of the Foundation have been?

Because we all think of foundations as funding or help to fund the operation of an entity.

So what happened?

- So really it was, it was a bad business relationship at its core.

It was a bad business relationship that wasn't based at least on the Foundation side on transparency and accountability, which are core to who we are as a museum and core to who we are as a state agency that people expect and hold us accountable.

They hold us to a public trust that we're doing what we say we're going to do with the state's collections, with the state tax dollars.

And the Foundation really wasn't interested in that.

They weren't interested in that kind of trust and accountability that we needed as an agency.

It wasn't an over the night fly by night kind of decision.

It was something the museum had been trying to work on for many, many months, and unfortunately really came to an impasse with the Foundation.

- So from the library museum's perspective, was this a lack of transparency on the part of the Foundation?

- It was, absolutely.

You know, it was important for us to understand who the donors were, and that's not something that the Foundation was willing to provide, it's important for us to be able to, again, have that accountability that comes with being a state entity, because we want people to know and to trust that we are who we say we are, and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.

And it's hard to do that when you're partnered with a group that's not about that.

- Does the Foundation still exist?

They still have to pay off the debt on the, the $25 million.

- Yes, on their collection.

- So what are you doing financially?

If the Foundation was providing some funds to the library museum, what are you doing now financially to make up that difference?

- One of the things that we're doing is we're starting to really build and rebuild a development program.

So re-engaging donors.

One of the things that people, you know, when they think about supporting the museum, they support the museum through our museum gift shops.

So that was something that the Foundation used to kind of maintain the contract for, but that's something that we to maintain now that we hold.

And what's great about that is before that money just kind of went to the Foundation, the money from those store sales.

Now, when you purchase something in the museum gift shop, it comes directly to the museum.

It goes to support school children coming to the museum.

It supports our teacher education work in the classroom.

- Two things you mentioned, one is you mentioned the gift shop, I've been in the gift shop.

It is a mini library.

- It is, it is, one of the things that I did at Mosaic that I hope to bring here as well as to really focus in more on Illinois-made items, to focus on those unique things that make our state great here and to really focus in on small businesses.

And again, the museum is a place to support economic development, to support small business growth here in Illinois.

- The other issue I want to talk about that you mentioned is education of young people, but how are you reaching out?

I mean, not everybody has an opportunity to go to the museum, even fewer go to the library.

How do you plan on reaching out, especially to schoolchildren?

- Well, we have lots of ways that we get to reach out to school children.

I think one of the most meaningful things we've done this summer is host a teacher education workshop that has been, and is specifically focused on teaching teachers how to teach with primary source resources.

So utilizing items in our collection to talk about history, to talk about literature, to talk even about science, but helping them to and giving them the resources and empowering them to really teach their students.

That's not something that most teachers are fortunate enough to get when they go through school.

And so we're happy to provide that as a resource for them.

- So you're providing that electronically.

So shots of, you know, video of... - Yes, it's both.

So we're both doing kind of digital resources, but also we have teachers on our campus this summer who are going through our collections, who are looking for items that will help them teach.

At the end of the workshop, the teachers actually develop a course, a course outline and plan for specifically teaching a lesson on a historical object or a historical document in our collection to their students.

- You were raised in Mississippi, Kansas City, Missouri, then in Little Rock, what do you bring to Springfield, Illinois and the Lincoln Museum Library that will make it a better place?

- Well, I think one of the things I bring is that, you know, for me, I'm the proud descendant of enslaved women dating back to 1791.

And the fact that, you know, I am now the executive director of the library and museum, I think, says something different about the way that I interpret, the way that I think about Lincoln, the way that I think about who Lincoln not only was, but who he is for me and my family, that I'm not just a historian or a librarian or an archivist or a museum person, that I have all those degrees that, that tell you that I am those things.

But then I'm also an African-American woman who thinks about Lincoln in a different way, that I think about Lincoln as both someone who's an emancipator, but also someone whose legacy extends to today.

- And with that, our half hour has already expired, but we would like to continue the conversation here in the studio.

You do so at home and take an opportunity to go down to Springfield and see the museum, Christina Shutt, executive director of the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library Museum.

Thank you for being with us on At Issue.

- Thank you so much.

- And thank you for joining us.

Next time, we'll be back with another edition of At Issue.

This time we'll be talking about changes at Heartland Community College and Illinois Central College on the next At Issue.

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