(electronic whooshing) (lively music) Welcome to At Issue.

I'm H Wayne Wilson.

Thank you so much for joining us on At Issue.

It was May 14, 1948, when Israel gained its independence.

Several months later, there was a failed effort to create a Palestinian state as an Egyptian protectorate.

Ever since then, there have been disputes and even wars.

And we're going to be talking about the relationship that Israel, has not only in the Mideast, but with America, with the Deputy Council General and the Consulate General of Israel to the Midwest.

Dr Daniel Aschheim, thank you for joining us on At Issue.

- Thank you for having me, H. I'm happy to be here.

- Before we talk about relationships and the Jewish people, let's talk about what a consulate does.

How many are there in America, and what are the duties?

- So this is a great question, because often people ask me what am I doing, what is my job?

And I said to them, "You know, I also don't."

Before I started doing this, I didn't understand what's the difference between an embassy, a consulate, diplomats.

So to make it simple, we have one embassy in Washington.

An embassy is always at the capital city.

We have eight consulate generals around the United States that cover regional, so a few states.

We have the largest territory in the United States.

We are based in Chicago, responsible for nine Midwestern states.

And we cover everything, from political work to commercial work, cultural exchange, media, social media, academia, and everything community work related, whether it's with Jewish community, minority work, or work with other, with the Christian community, leadership, faith leadership, and more, in order to bring, virtually, the Midwest closer to Israel, and Israel closer to the Midwest.

People to people, but also top down.

- So there are close to eight million Jews in America, a significant portion of the population.

Can you give us, and I know this may be difficult, because there's so many different relationships, but what is the Jewish relationship and the Israeli relationship with America?

- So I'll separate the two.

So the Jewish community, or American citizens, for many, many years, some of them already more than hundred years in the United States, whether it's the east coast, west coast, southern part, northern part, Midwest, there are years of Jewish communities here, which, they have their institutions, but they're integrated completely into American society and American citizens.

They have a close relationship to us in Israel, 'cause we are a part of the same tradition, the same communities, the same faith, the Jewish faith.

And the relationship between Israel and America is also fundamental, which is based on mutual trust, which is based on shared values, shared ideology, working together on shared interests.

And, of course, our Jewish brothers and sisters here also help foster these relationship, together with the other groups that we work with.

So this relationship is based on working together, sharing values, and really seeing each other as best friends in the world.

- You had an opportunity before coming to Chicago, where you're based, to be in Senegal, West Africa.

Do you have a sense of if there's a difference between the West African relationship with Israel and the US relationship with Israel?

- Yes, definitely.

So the two years were a formative experience for myself and my family, my expanded family, there.

Being a Jew in a Muslim state, so Senegal is 95% Muslim, and the surrounding, we had four other countries in the region that we're responsible for, it was a unique form of Islam that made us understand that we can live together, we can work together.

And seeing the relationship formed on the work that Israel does through its international development program, MASHAV, working in order to share the Israeli knowhow with our partners, whether it's education, healthcare, food security, women empowerment, bringing in technologies and bringing the Israeli knowhow and sharing it with them, that was one of the most important pillars of the relationship, and Israel's relationship with Africa is working together in order to help to make this world a little better than what we can with our knowhows.

The relationship between America and Israel is based, again, as what we mentioned before, of shared interests, shared technologies, shared moral values, and it's of course based on different scales in economy, and different work that is done on the daily level, but also on the international arena.

While with America, we see eye-to-eye in most of the topics and we work together, with Senegal, we sometimes differ in the international arena.

We're still working in order to find ways in the multinational arena, the United Nations, to have them support Israel also in things that are relevant for us.

- You mentioned Senegal is 95% Muslim.

I'd like to look at Israel, the State of Israel, because I don't want people to walk away saying, "Well, Israel is a Jewish state, so therefore it must be all Jewish people."

Haifa, for instance, the city in Israel, there is an Arab community within Haifa, and in other parts of Israel.

Is there tension between those parties?

- So it's a great point, H, that you raised.

Israel is one of the most diverse countries in the world.

People talk a lot of times about the importance of diversity, equity, equality.

Sometimes it's genuine, sometimes it's lip service.

Israel might less talk about it, but it's the reality on the ground.

So I am born and raised, lived in Jerusalem all my life.

In Jerusalem, we have 40% of the population is Arab, mostly Muslim.

There's also a Christian minority.

In the Jewish population there, we have ultra Orthodox, we have secular, we have traditional, we have modern Zionist Orthodox.

We have all of the above, and we work together.

So the doctor I go to is a Muslim doctor.

The nurses we go to are Muslim.

I had professors at the university who were Arab.

We have Supreme Court justices who are Arabs.

We have members of parliament.

We had now, this was the first time in Israeli history, we had parts of the coalition government who are members of the Islamic Brotherhood Party, the Ra'am Party, which is a phenomenal change.

They were heads of the Interior Committee in Israel's Knesset.

So this is something.

You mentioned Haifa.

Haifa, this is coexistence on a daily level now.

Is there's always love between the population?

No.

Is there always hatred?

Also No.

Are there gaps still to pass?

Do we need to work on bridging these gaps?

Yes.

Is the government trying to?

Yes.

Do we still have a long way to go?

Yes, but I think what we see in Israel, this process of integration, full integration between its Arab minority, 20% of Israel are Arabs, and the majority of the Jewish population, we're seeing a lot of positive move.

- So if there's an effort to integrate all those, I mean, it's just not Arab and Jew, it's a lot of different aspects of those parties.

The Palestinians want to have their own state.

So is that the primary problem in the Mideast, is that we don't have a Palestinian state?

And I know there's a lot of issues with where their capital would be, they wanna have part of Jerusalem, et cetera, but it seems like there's at least an effort.

Not that there's harmony, but there's an effort to work together within Israel.

Is that second state one of the barriers?

- So it's a good question, what you mention.

And I just wanna refer, before I'll answer directly, to say that when we are talking about the Middle East, we see a dramatic shift, historical shift, in what we thought was the reality and what the reality is today.

We thought that without solving the issues of the Palestinian matters, which are important, and I'll refer to it in a moment, there'll never be peace with the Arab neighbors in the Middle East.

And the Abraham Accord showed us that peace can be achieved as a method of mutual trust, shared interest.

And the Abraham Accords that we are commemorating this year, two years for their anniversary, changed the cope of history, dramatic change.

Israel has in Morocco, UAE, Dubai, Bahrain, diplomatic missions there, full economic cooperations.

We have ministers joining, security cooperation on all levels.

And this is relevant because this is supposed to, hopefully, show the way to the Palestinian, that peace is the way to resolve the issue with Israel, not through terrorism, and not through other ways.

The only way to solve it is through the negotiation table.

Now, what would be the solution for the historical conflict between the Palestinian people and the Israeli people is a challenging question.

In the past, we thought it would be the two-state solution.

We saw the Palestinian leadership again and again, you mentioned 1948, 1949.

It started beforehand in 1947.

The partition plan that was rejected by the Palestinian leadership then, continued by rejection, rejection, rejection of any kind of resolution.

And regardless of which compromise Israel was willing to give, in terms of territory, in terms of Jerusalem, in terms of water, in terms of borders, the Palestinian leadership could not accept three basic things, calling it end of claims.

It's one thing, but three words, end of claims.

And they were never willing to sign an agreement, even after finding agreements on all the complicated topics, to say that that will be the end of their claims.

And Israel said, "We cannot sign an agreement until there's a recognition that once it's signed, a historical treaty, that's it."

- Is one of the issues, and after the '67, the Six-Day War back in the sixties, Israel took the West Bank, which had been Jordanian, Gaza Strip, and then later had the Golan Heights, which I believe is part of Syria.

And then settlements had been built, Israeli settlements had been built on some of that property.

And those had been other nation's properties, or lands, let me say.

Is the settlement issue one of the stumbling blocks?

Is there an effort to say, "Well, the West Bank was Jordanian," for instance.

Could some or all of that go back to Jordan?

- So this is a complicated matter, because there are two narratives here, on the judicial level, on the legal commentary, and also on the ideological level.

So whether this land, who owns this land.

So the places you're referring to, the West Bank, Judea and Samaria, everyone refers to it differently, were also occupied Jordanian territories.

So they were never, after, it was part of the British mandate, and then Jordan had it temporarily.

And the Golan Heights were parts of certain parts of Syria, but they started war.

And when they started war, Israel won.

Thank God, they won this war, which was an existential threat on the State of Israel, when the Arab countries attacked Israel.

And these lands were, some call them occupied, we call them released and brought back, because the historic land of Israel, the biblical historical land of Israel, comes from the river to the sea.

Now, we are recognizing that there are disputes.

So in Israeli society, in Israeli political systems, there are those, including Prime Minister, current Prime Minister, Yair Lapid, who says that two-state solution is the solution that we would like to go towards.

There are others in the political system, or on the other side, that say, "We believe in the solution that all of this land belongs to the State of Israel, and we'll need to find other alternative solutions."

So there's a big dispute and discussion inside Israeli political system as what should be the future, and the Palestinian leadership need to recognize the fact that Israel is there.

Unless that's done, it will be very hard to come to any resolution in the future.

- The settlement question.

Is there any discussion in Israel about the possibility in trying to create a two-state solution, if that's where the current administration wants to go, to draw back some of the settlements?

- So in the past, when the negotiation, the last round of concrete negotiations were done, they were done in the Obama term, and President Obama and Prime Minister Netanyahu.

But the ones previously, that ended in 2009, were between then Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, and Mahmoud Abbas, who is currently still the Palestinian leader.

And they discussed all.

All of the issues were there, including the settlement issue.

And they reached resolutions, and they reached agreements on what should be.

Some will remain, some will be land swaps.

It's all public information.

One can read it today on the websites.

Nevertheless, the Palestinian leadership also then, when this was the so-called, Condaleezza Rice wrote it in her book, it's in Al Jazeera leaks, not in WikiLeaks, Al Jazeera leaks, written that nearly nine, more than 99.9% of the Palestinian claims on, so-called, the settlements, were resolved.

Nevertheless, they still didn't sign the agreement.

Now, today, Israeli society sees that even when all the territorial quests were given to the Palestinian side, they still refused to sign, because they didn't want to end the conflict.

Israeli society is saying, "I am not willing to jeopardize the future of the State of Israel by giving again land," moving out of the land, like what happened in the Gaza Strip.

We left the Gaza, we pulled out all the so-called settlements, and what we got were rockets, thousands and hundreds of thousands of rocket aimed at Israeli cities around the country, targeting civilians, children, women, men, all over the country.

So Israeli people are fearing to do a mistake that will not bring lasting peace, and will bring terrorism into every city and around the country.

- The United States, during the presidency of Donald Trump, moved the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.

What was the reaction in Israel and the other countries nearby?

- This was a move that was highly appreciated by Israelis, by the Israeli political system, but from the people.

We were born to understand and raised to know that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel.

And to know that the United States recognizes and appreciates that, and finally brings moves, its official representation, to the capital of Israel, is a natural step that for us was something we hoped for years that will happen.

And it actually did, so it was a genuine happiness of moving it there.

And I think the surrounding countries, there were always the fear.

A lot of people said, "What will happen when America will do that move?

Will it impact the relationship with the other countries around?"

And it didn't.

We saw the Abraham Accords continue to flourish.

We saw more agreements signed, more stronger relationship between Israel and its neighbors, not only the new neighbors, but Egypt and Jordan, strongest relationship that for many years we are having now.

So I think it was an essential, important move, and it was accepted by most.

- The Palestinians.

And you talked about the eternal capital, Jerusalem, for Israel, but that is the birthplace of three religions.

And the Palestinians would like to have their capital, if there's a second state, at least in the eastern portion of Jerusalem.

Is that doable?

- So I'll start by saying that you're right, it is a holy city for three religions.

And I think for millions of people around the world, are looking or praying or thinking of, or visiting Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is a place that saw so much religious conflict throughout history, but it also saw years of peace.

And an important fact to say is the only time in history that all religions had freedom of movement and prayer in all the holy sites were during Israeli control over these areas.

So when Israel is there, Israel is the sovereign there, it allows and enables freedom of worship and religion to Muslims, Christians and Jews alike.

And there are status quos on different places, whether it's talking about the Dome of the Rock, Al-Aqsa, for the Muslim prayer.

Jews can visit, but not pray.

And the Western Wall is for the Jewish community.

And we have also the Christian places, of course.

Freedom of worship, and this is something we cherish as a true, viable democracy in the Middle East, the only democracy in the Middle East.

And if we are talking about a future Palestinian State, the issue of Jerusalem, yes, we need to find a resolution for the City of Jerusalem.

And this was during the negotiations, one of the matters that were at stake.

They had also offered certain solutions throughout where, what, who, but this needs to be, again, this is a political question, and it's a question of the two sides.

How do we get to a resolution?

The basic fundamental state is Israel says Jerusalem is the eternal capital of the State of Israel, and will remain undivided.

Saying that, the other things will need to be found in the negotiation table.

- Let's turn our attention to the Holocaust.

You have, and many people have, often used the phrase of, "Six million is just a statistic.

One death is a tragedy."

Have we learned our lesson from the Holocaust?

- Well, that's a very, very important matter.

What you said is exactly right.

When we are talking about the numbers, and often do we read six million, and when we see 25, 50 million people dying in World War II, we read, it's another part of a textbook, historical textbook.

We read numbers.

There's no personal story involved.

It's very important, it's really critical for the future, not for the past, but for the future, to remember the personal stories, the atrocities that took place, by people to other people, by human beings to other human beings.

It's not some kind of machine somewhere in history that did something to a group.

It's personal.

It's people, individuals and masses, killing systematically another race and taking it off, of trying to do everything possible actively to wipe them off history and off the map.

And as long as we keep these stories alive, and people see how they're relevant for their life, we have to make a clear statement, two statements, one a particular one, and one a universal one.

A particular one for the Jewish community, saying, "We will never ever let it happen again to any Jew around the world.

Needs to be protected and safe.

Never again will we allow this to happen."

And this is done through a strong State of Israel, strong Jewish state, which will protect every Jew around the world, and every citizen of the State of Israel.

That's the particular.

But the universal responsibility is for us as human beings, everyone, every person who listens and views this today, you, me, our responsibility, a moral, just responsibility, that it will never, ever happen to any person on earth.

Doesn't matter what religion he is, what race he is, what gender they are, it's our responsibility to protect and remember.

- We have a ways to go toward that goal, because, and you've talked about this before: Hatred.

Hatred exists.

Colleyville, Texas, in a synagogue, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, there is hatred, not just against Jews, but Blacks, Asians, a particular sex.

How do you overcome?

And this universal goal, how do you overcome this hatred?

- Hate is the most dangerous thing that we have in this world.

And hate, as you mentioned correctly, when you hate one group, you hate yourself and you hate other groups as well.

So you cannot be someone hating.

It's on an individual level, on a family level, on a community level, on a national level.

Hate brings more hate.

Hate brings you to very, very bad places.

And we're seeing the growing number of antisemitic attacks around the United States.

You mentioned a few of them.

We are seeing it coming from all directions.

We are seeing it coming from the Right.

We are seeing it coming from the Left.

We're seeing it coming from certain groups in the Muslim community.

And we are seeing a combination of hatred that leads to attacks, vicious attacks, of people coming and murdering the other, just because of their religion.

And in order to stop this hatred, we need to teach tolerance, we need to teach morality, and we need to teach what are the dangers of this hate.

And as long as we talk about it and meet the other, and are not afraid from the other, and have more dialogue, we can make, bring more tolerance and understanding.

We don't need to agree with the other, but we need to learn how to talk to each other.

This is true also for the political system, between people who disagree on politics.

We know that.

You know that.

But I think it has to come together.

- If talking to each other is one of the solutions, let's turn our attention to the word, assimilation.

Assimilation.

There are Jewish people who marry non-Jews, et cetera.

There's a fear amongst some Jews that that's not good, and they want to close in the borders, so to speak, and form these conclaves.

That's not reaching out.

How do you respond to those particular Jews who are afraid of assimilation, that you might lose your Jewish identity?

- So the fear of assimilation is a historical fear that also was in Europe mainly in the 19th, 20th century, of when the Western ideology came in and more secularism came in, how do you keep your traditions, how do you keep your community alive?

And the fear of assimilation is a true fear, but it doesn't mean it's a blood assimilation necessarily, by marrying someone not out from the community.

The question is, how do you raise your children?

And if you keep raising your children, that also doesn't mean that they're not reaching out to the general public.

The fact that they marry in the community, as you mentioned, it's a very small community.

We're talking about, the percentage is so low inside Americans, and we are talking about less than-- - Eight Million out of 330 million.

- You can do the math.

You're the engineer, H. (H laughing) And when we are seeing these numbers, it's a natural thing that the community would like to keep themself, but that doesn't mean they're not open to the world, working with the world.

There are certain ultra Orthodox groups that that's their ideology, is to stay separated and to keep their religious themes and way of life.

But the vast majority of the Jewish community is fearing for the, say, for the future of their institutions, their community life, their values, their culture, because they are losing members of the community.

- You served in the Jewish Defense Forces.

- The Israeli Defense Force.

- I'm sorry, the Israeli Defense Force.

My apologies.

And you had an opportunity, as I believe most members of the Force do, to visit a concentration camp.

Did that change your life in any way?

- So I actually didn't visit in my army days.

I visited separately.

I went to a trip to one of the German ones, not the death camps, but as we say, all were death camps.

But I did visit.

It was a transformative moment, seeing it in your eyes.

When you see the place, and you don't see and you don't feel what they felt, of course, but you can try and imagine a person, someone, a brother, a sister, could be your parents.

My grandparents.

Twenty-two of my family members were murdered in the Holocaust.

It could've been one of them there.

Sitting there in the silence, and the weather, and the barracks, and to imagine what people, again, people, who became monsters.

And again, it made me feel what my responsibility and obligation is to this world.

- You were were surprised that you had relatives that died in the Holocaust.

And, real briefly, how did you find that out?

Very quickly.

- For me, it really was a unique moment.

So I'm now 34, and six years ago, I sat with my wife for dinner, and we had a regular conversation, and she told me, "You're a Holocaust survivor family."

And that was the first time when she checked it out in the Yad Versham.

- [H] And gave you a whole new perspective.

- A whole new perspective.

- Daniel Aschheim, thank you so much for joining us on At Issue.

- Thank you very much, H. - And we'll be back next time with another edition of At Issue.

Be sure to join us then.

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