(gentle music) (gentle music continues) Welcome to "At Issue".

I'm H. Wayne Wilson.

Thank you for joining us for a conversation about churches.

Church attendance is down on a national basis.

Some churches are growing, that is true.

But on a national basis, the Pew Research Center showed that 27% of Americans attended church in the past month.

That means at least one time in the past month, about a quarter of Americans.

And that is a number that is declining, has declined steadily over time.

We're going to be discussing the issue of declining attendance and how to turn that around with three pastors here in central Illinois.

Let me introduce to you first, Pastor Ted A Hartley.

He is the pastor at Northwest Methodist United Methodist Church.

Thank you for joining us, Pastor Ted.

- Glad to be here.

- [Wayne] Pastor Michael Ritchason is the pastor at Riverside Community Church, which is Assemblies of God.

Thank you for being with us.

- Thanks for having me.

- [Wayne] And then Pastor Melinda Sparks Renner, Pastor Melinda is at Imago Dei church, which is interdenominational here in Peoria.

And welcome from Alabama to Illinois.

- Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

- That number, 27%, and you can look it up.

There are other surveys, but it's similar that the trend is downward.

Every decade you can see a decline in average attendance across all denominations in America.

Let me have you share your experience at your particular church, Pastor Ted, if you would start, you're relatively new at Northwest United Methodist.

- Yes.

I started there in July.

I actually retired this past June, but they needed a part-time pastor.

So in retirement I decided to be a part-time pastor, which is actually part-time in name only, and came to that church and through COVID and other reasons, they had declined in their membership considerably.

And so I came in there with hopefully expectations to try to bring that attendance up.

And so I knew that the most important thing coming out of COVID was to make contact with people, to get to know them and to get them enthused about their church again.

And so that is where I've been starting to move because this this is not a problem just for Methodists or interdenominational or Assembly of God, this is across the board in America right now.

And actually Europe too, for that matter.

- Pastor Michael, what is your situation at at Riverside?

- I came in at the beginning of 2020.

Our founding pastor, Pastor John King retired at the end of 2019.

And so we took over that first Sunday in 2020.

Anyone that will tell you transition is difficult at times as one pastor goes out and the new one comes in, we were about nine weeks in person before we had to shut down with COVID.

So about 13 weeks online, and so just coming back, we've really tried to build on the foundation that Riverside has been in the heart of the city and just trying to be a church in the city for the city.

And it's been really incredible how God's hand has continued to be upon our church and to see new families as we've grown a little bit younger as well to see our kids' ministry explode, new families explode.

It's been really exciting to see what God is doing.

- So you have not suffered any decline in attendance outside of COVID?

- We declined initially and now over probably the last 12 months or so, we've started to grow again and now are at higher numbers than we were pre COVID.

- Pastor Ted and Pastor Michael, both Peoria oriented, Pastor Melinda, Alabama oriented.

You came up to Imago Dei.

Was it difficult as a southerner to come into a new church in a new state?

- It was.

There was definitely some transition just for me.

I moved my 16 year old daughter with me, so she had to completely uproot as well.

And so there were challenges with that.

We have had a lot of transitions.

We lost a beloved husband and wife who were pastors there.

They'd been there for about seven or eight years.

They left as I was coming in.

And the other co-pastor that I served with left a little less than a year after I came.

So we have had some transition and our numbers have gone down.

We were looking at it yesterday.

We were averaging around 140 in service on Sunday mornings before COVID, and now we're about 88.

But we have a pretty healthy online presence.

On any given week, we probably have 15 to 20 plus that watch it on YouTube later on that week.

And we stream online through Facebook too.

And we have a pretty healthy amount of people there as well.

- Pastor Michael, is online a plus or a minus when it comes to attendance and involvement by parishioners?

- I think it's kind of a double edged sword.

It is a plus for those who can't physically come to your location on a Sunday morning.

It's a plus for, as we were talking about, people that are involved in travel teams can't get there on a Sunday morning.

However, I always encourage people as often as they can to come to church on Sunday morning because you miss that community, you miss being prayed over, you miss, even for us, we really only stream our service.

So our kids ministry, our youth ministry, our young people aren't getting that being poured into them as well, their own unique environment.

So I'm grateful that we have the opportunity to stream our services, but I always tell people, if at all possible, get in the room, worship with us, pray with us, encounter the presence of God within that room.

- You mentioned kids ministry, it's interesting that you mentioned that because you were a teacher, a school teacher.

Has that helped relate to young people?

- I think it was, I came out of the classroom after 15 years, became the student pastor at Riverside before I became the lead pastor.

And I often tell people, if you can teach, communicate, interact with young people, you can talk to just about anybody.

And so I think it was great preparation in terms of where God was leading us five years ago before we ever knew that we'd be sitting in where we are right now.

- And Pastor Ted, you are a former teacher?

- Yes, I would like to make a little comment though, about something that you were talking about about during COVID, we went to a different type of connecting with people because of COVID.

I remember the bishop of our conference here of the United Methodist Church here in Illinois said, well, we had to do church different and new.

We had to learn and change.

And I thought about that a lot and I had some problems with that because I agreed.

Yeah, we do.

I mean, today a church that's not got some kind of online presence, is not gonna grow.

It's not gonna succeed.

It's just the cold hard truth about the world we live in today.

And so that is so important, but it's also important and so interesting that, and this I think cuts across young to old, this is not one generational type thing.

A lot of people are hungering for community.

They're hungering to beyond just a text or an Instagram or a TikTok.

Those are still important.

They're still who we are and what we do, but what we need to do is still connect with people.

And and I found that through the years, I mean, let's go back even a little further through my life as a layperson and then as a pastor, there's always been a new idea, a new program, a new way to do things, and they're good.

And I wanna be right on the cutting edge.

I don't wanna be living in the past.

I don't want to be having church of 1950 still.

But on the other hand, no matter all these programs, people are still looking for community, are still looking for a personal touch, are still carried.

I remember the idea was pastors really need to have all the lady go visit and so they'll have more time to study and be in their office preparing a wonderful sermon.

Well, people need to see the pastor too, and they need to have a personal touch.

And I realize huge churches have a little different approach to this, but most of us that are below 1,000 on Sunday need to have this personal touch.

And so I feel like as we have left COVID and we're moving forward now, some of the old principles that go all the way back to the beginning of church need to be still practiced.

- Does the fact that you and and Pastor Michael are former school teachers help you relate even to adults?

And you do a children's sermon, so to speak as part of your service.

Do you feel sometimes like I'm teaching again?

- Oh, well, yes.

One thing that's interesting when I've been a pastor before, I've said a whole lot about myself.

They'll say you used to be a teacher, didn't you?

And they could just tell, I don't know if you've ever had that too, you can't quite pull that out of a person, you're still teaching.

And I feel like that's a big part of my ministry, yes.

- Pastor Melinda, your thoughts with regard to communicating with a new congregation.

And you've been here two years.

How has that transition occurred for you?

- Well, when I came in the middle of the pandemic, we were shut down, I think, well, I take that back.

I think we were allowed 30 people in the building when I first came.

And so it took me several months to even realize who people were.

We were a congregation that took the pandemic very seriously.

And so even after the governor lifted some restrictions, we still kept some restrictions for that reason of trying to protect one another.

So it took me a little bit longer to get to know people.

I did a lot of Zoom meetings with people.

I emailed everybody that I had an email for when I first came here and said I would like to meet you somehow.

How about we Zoom, thinking nobody's gonna wanna do that.

A lot of people wanted to do that.

And so a lot of my first mentions of getting to know people was through Zoom.

And then as things kinda loosened up a little bit and everybody was getting vaccinated, then it was, can we meet in person?

And then I would meet in person.

I'm a storyteller and I love to hear somebody's story.

that just gets me.

- And that's interesting Pastor Michael because Zoom's a wonderful piece of technology, but you don't get to know a person with Zoom.

And you have hundreds of people that attend your church on any given Sunday.

How do you keep track?

I mean, you wanna be in person, how do you keep track of so many people and encourage them to remain attendees at your church?

- I think like probably every church in America, we give an opportunity to fill out a card, text a number, come see us in the lobby.

And there's some people that really want you to have their information.

They're looking for a connection like that.

And there's some people that are a little bit more reserved.

But if we do get your information that next day, I'm always following up with people with a handwritten card, just reaching out to them.

Our team follows up with a phone call, we just want to make for our church, a big church feel small.

And there's a piece of that where there are some people that are very hesitant to give you that information and we understand that.

But what we find is that when you're talking about online church, one of the other benefits is that so often when I meet somebody on a Sunday morning, they feel like they already know me and our team because most of the time they've watched three, four, five weeks in a row if not on a Sunday morning.

I think we don't have a huge live presence on a Sunday morning, but our numbers throughout the week where people go back and re-watch it or download the message are really, really high.

So by the time they walk into our physical location, they already feel like they kind of have a relationship with us.

And it makes it easy to say, hey, you want to go grab lunch?

You wanna go grab a coffee?

Do you wanna come stop into the church?

And hey, let me get to know you.

- I think it's funny that you said that because that happened to me a lot, especially in the first year.

People would come in or they would see me, they would come in for the first time and I'd be like, oh, it's so nice to meet you.

And they were like I love when you, they'll sporadically talk about a story that I've told and I'll be like how do you know that?

Oh, oh, they saw me online.

Or if I see someone out at Target, I've seen you before, I like da da da.

And I'm like, oh, that's kind of creepy.

But they've heard me online and sometimes we forget what kind of presence that online streaming can be or I do.

And I'm a little bit older so technology is not my thing.

So yeah, I think that's pretty interesting.

- You are a musician, Pastor Ted.

Tuba, to be specific.

Your services rely a lot on music.

There's a lot of music in your services.

Do you feel that you're reaching out to people that way to help build a relationship?

- I think so.

The churches I've served in, have always had pretty good music and I think music's very important.

People relate to music.

It could also be a factor that might also divide a church over music from the people who are the hymn people and the people who are the praise people.

And some, like the church I pastor, we try to have a blend, which works out pretty good.

But I think music is an important part of worship and it's an important part of who we are and should be a good connecting point.

And I think it's also a good way for people to come and experience it and be involved or to see it online.

So if you have a good music presence, that's gonna work good online as well as in person.

So I think that's very important.

- We've talked about building relationships with parishioners.

We've talked about that they can fill out a card and the church can reach out to them.

What other areas have you found that have been effective?

I mean, with hundreds of attendees, and Pastor Ted, you maybe have 60, 70 and how many for you?

- About 88, 90.

- 90.

That's more manageable.

We're talking hundreds.

You can't be there for everybody all the time and know everybody as well.

Can you reach to certain parishioners and have them act on behalf of the church in some capacity?

- Yeah, that's exactly what we're doing.

We have an incredible team that we've kind of trained because I can't do every hospital visit.

I can't sit down to meet with every single person, that we have a team of people that we just said, hey, you're gonna be the hands and feet, we call them our first impressions team and you roll up on our campus and they're the first people you see in the parking lot, on the sidewalk when you walk into the door.

And I'll try to meet with as many people as I possibly can, but like you said, I can't meet with everybody and I just want, even as large as our church is, we still want to get to that place where you feel seen, you feel welcomed, you feel loved, and we get to know you, we get to know your name and what that looks like, we get to know your family and I think one of the greatest things that I get to do every single Sunday is I get to stand at our door as people are leaving, I get to meet new people.

I get to check in with people that have been there for a decade now.

And those are the things, I think the community aspect of it is so huge, the pastoral piece of that, that I think coming out of COVID with so many people that felt isolated, so many people that felt alone just to get back into that space and really trying to come alongside of people, pray with people, visit people, that's the thing that really changes the game where we don't talk about our congregation.

I always intentionally use the phrase church family because that's really what I want us to be.

And just like in any family, we're not perfect.

There's some mistakes that happen along the way.

There's some times where we're a little ugly at times, but we come back together and there's something beautiful when you see the entire Kingdom of God together, worshiping as you're saying, praying together, responding to a message, going out and now sharing the love of Jesus throughout their community, throughout their neighborhood, their place of business.

Those are the things that what church is really all about, I believe.

- You are a much smaller church than Riverside.

Do you still rely on, especially having come from Alabama, you can't relate to Illinois right away.

Is there a core group of people that you rely on to help maintain that sense of community within the church?

- Yes.

I have a leadership team and I also have a formation team that were there from the very beginning.

And these teams were important.

We have a resource and a ministry team.

The formation team is responsible for the spiritual development of the church.

And that includes getting people involved in like Sunday school and communities together so we can get to know one another better.

And they are very proactive in trying to make that happen.

So I don't do this by myself.

I have a teaching team, they teach once a month, so it gives me a little bit of a break and a breather and not all the pressure is on me all the time to be that front and center person.

That's helpful as well.

- You're shaking your head yes.

You're not the focal point necessarily.

- No.

Over the years of course the Methodist church is a little more organized, not that you're both not organized.

But we have a lot of organization and some of that organization is very good.

Some of it is not as good in today's world, is not as effective.

So one of the things I've noticed important in my 31 years of ministry, especially in the last number of years, is to have hospitality, fellowship, things like that being a big focal part, especially hospitality.

And so I've tried to do away with committees and come up with the idea of teams and the idea of refocusing from not counting how many communion cups you used last week to how can we make worship more effective and connect with people because from the beginning of worship to the end of worship, there needs to be a connecting point for community to experience God through Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit just to renew again.

And so I think churches have to have more than just the pastor to be effective today.

- We've been talking about how you as a pastor and your team can reach out and involve parishioners and attract new parishioners.

But one thing that occurs to me is that some people who are hesitant to go to church sit there and say how can God be loving when we have the war in Ukraine, we have the hurricane in Florida, we have the typhoon in the Philippines, we have the war in Yemen, we have the hunger in Africa, and we can go down the list.

How do you reach out to people and assure them that God still is a loving God and that they should come to church, that it is to their benefit that they should come to a church.

- I think what you just shared there is the big question as a pastor that we all wrestle with, as are those big questions in life.

And I think for many of us as pastors, I think one of the greatest abilities you have is your vulnerability.

It's sharing what I'm walking through right now with my family, in my past.

It's sharing where I've seen the Lord continue to show up in my life.

It's not always easy.

I was sitting with somebody today and I just kind of shared, hey, here's what I'm walking through.

And sometimes, life dare I say, it sucks.

I know we're not allowed to say that sometimes, but life is hard.

But that's where faith in Jesus comes in.

It's bigger than me.

It's a relationship with my heavenly Father.

And that's what helps me get through the day today.

It's when I look back in the past and see, this is what the Lord has done for me in the past.

And so even though I'm walking through something really, really difficult right now, I believe that God's gonna be with me in my present and into my future.

And I think those are the things where if you can share where you are right now, where God has brought you, I'm the last person that should be sitting at a table with y'all.

Because I'm not a kid that grew up and said I want to be a pastor one day.

No, I got a list of sins a mile long.

I got a past.

But the fact that there was a heavenly Father that still saw something in me, He cleaned me up, He put me back on a new path.

And now I get to every single day sit with an incredible group of people like you guys to stand on a platform on a Sunday morning and proclaim the love of Jesus.

And if He can do it for me, He can do it for anybody.

- In 20 seconds each, this is the tough part.

Be concise.

The future of Imago Dei in terms of attendance and growth and service.

- I think we will continue being an affirming and inclusive congregation.

I think one of the most beautiful things a pastor can say to anybody as God loves you just like you are.

- [Wayne] And Pastor Michael.

- I think for us, we just wanna continue to be a church in the heart of the city.

I think one of our things has continued to be outreach, looking out at our neighborhoods around, finding what are the needs within our own backyard and trying to fill those things and we wanna continue to seek wisdom and direction and vision from the Lord to continue to be the hands and feet of Jesus throughout our city.

- Pastor Ted, you have the final word.

You are relatively new at Northwest United Methodist Church.

What do you see as the future, not just for your church but in general?

- I think there's great promise.

Northwest has a great family fellowship outreach area.

I think I see great growth coming there, but I really do see the church as it has always been in tough times and difficult times, the hope that is still needed in our world.

- And with that promising statement, I'll say thank you to Pastor Melinda and Pastor Ted of Imago Dei and of Northwest United Methodist Church, and Pastor Michael of Riverside Community Church in downtown Peoria.

Thank you for joining us on "At Issue".

We'll be back next time.

This time we turn to the ballot box.

There are lots of referenda and races in the central Illinois area, but we're going to focus on two referenda that need explaining.

Unit five has a tax hike proposal.

We'll talk about that.

And also the township of the city of Peoria will be discussing how redistricting might look in the future, on the next "At Issue".

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